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Author Topic: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Replace  (Read 3575 times)

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werothegreat

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Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Replace
« on: November 30, 2016, 03:36:20 pm »
+5


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-Which is more important - the topdecking, or the Attack?
-How does this compare to other Remodelers?  Other Cursers?
-Is it a viable strategy to Replace Coppers into Estates?
-How many do you want?
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Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Replace
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2016, 03:53:43 pm »
+2

Replace is especially great for MILL-ing your Estates. 
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Chris is me

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Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Replace
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2016, 04:46:03 pm »
+2

More than any other Intrigue card, Replace LOVES upgrading into dual type Victory cards.

Replace is way better than Remodel, like you wouldn't believe. It's just so much faster and more strategic. The late Cursing is fun too.
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trivialknot

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Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Replace
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2016, 03:16:23 pm »
+1

I've only played a few games with this so far.  My impression so far is that the cursing is far more significant than I had initially guessed.  It left me seriously wondering if Replace offers some sort of Duchy rush strategy, similar to an IGG rush.  If it does, I suspect there's a lot more strategic depth to it, and it will take us a while to figure out.

The cost increase over Remodel seems fairly significant.  You can Remodel Estates into Remodels, but you can't Replace Estates with Replaces.
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werothegreat

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Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Replace
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2016, 03:53:51 pm »
+1

I want to bring up Replacing Coppers into Estates again - what are all your thoughts on this?  I was playing with a friend who bought 3 Replaces, while I bought 3 Counterfeits on a Banquet board, and he ended up winning, I just couldn't really do anything with all the Curses.  I think it comes down to Replace, well, replaces a card, and adds a card to the opponent's deck, so they get more junk.  We did also have more Coppers than usual due to Banquet.
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Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Replace
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2016, 04:53:38 pm »
0

I want to bring up Replacing Coppers into Estates again - what are all your thoughts on this?  I was playing with a friend who bought 3 Replaces, while I bought 3 Counterfeits on a Banquet board, and he ended up winning, I just couldn't really do anything with all the Curses.  I think it comes down to Replace, well, replaces a card, and adds a card to the opponent's deck, so they get more junk.  We did also have more Coppers than usual due to Banquet.

I haven't played enough games with Replace to understand it fully, but it seems like the strategy of Replacing Coppers into Estates just for the attack wouldn't normally be all that helpful to the attacker since they're sort of junking their own deck by reducing their own economy and increasing their number of dead cards.  The Curses hurt your opponent a lot, that's for sure, but without the attack, how often do you buy a Remodel just to turn your Coppers into Estates, especially in the early or midgame?  I can see the synergy with Banquet for that particular game--each Banquet purchase came with a Replace and two more fodder.  But otherwise Replacing your starting Coppers into Estates seems like it would slow you down too in the early game, which makes me think the topdecking of stronger actions and treasures is faster and more helpful for you at first, and then maybe transitioning into cursing later?

It's interesting to note that with Remodel, remodeling Curses into Estates results in a two VP swing, whereas with Replace, it's a three VP swing as long as there are Curses left.     
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trivialknot

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Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Replace
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2016, 06:28:05 pm »
0

I want to bring up Replacing Coppers into Estates again - what are all your thoughts on this?  I was playing with a friend who bought 3 Replaces, while I bought 3 Counterfeits on a Banquet board, and he ended up winning, I just couldn't really do anything with all the Curses.  I think it comes down to Replace, well, replaces a card, and adds a card to the opponent's deck, so they get more junk.  We did also have more Coppers than usual due to Banquet.
Note that this is just theorycrafting...

When I replace a copper with an estate, there are two ways of thinking about it:
1. We both get junked.  I thin a copper.
2. You get junked.  I lose $1 economy.

If we think about it under #1, it sounds worse than Miser, and Counterfeit too.  If we think about it under #2, it sounds way worse than Witch.  So at first it just sounds bad.

What might make it better is the difference between a curse and an estate.  Was your opponent doing something with those estates, or was the VP margin from estates significant?
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Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Replace
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2016, 07:37:58 pm »
+1

I want to bring up Replacing Coppers into Estates again - what are all your thoughts on this?  I was playing with a friend who bought 3 Replaces, while I bought 3 Counterfeits on a Banquet board, and he ended up winning, I just couldn't really do anything with all the Curses.  I think it comes down to Replace, well, replaces a card, and adds a card to the opponent's deck, so they get more junk.  We did also have more Coppers than usual due to Banquet.
Note that this is just theorycrafting...

When I replace a copper with an estate, there are two ways of thinking about it:
1. We both get junked.  I thin a copper.
2. You get junked.  I lose $1 economy.

If we think about it under #1, it sounds worse than Miser, and Counterfeit too.  If we think about it under #2, it sounds way worse than Witch.  So at first it just sounds bad.

What might make it better is the difference between a curse and an estate.  Was your opponent doing something with those estates, or was the VP margin from estates significant?
Though if you think of it as Followers with a trash a copper over the moat effect then it doesn't seem too bad.
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Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Replace
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2016, 09:23:59 pm »
+3

When talking about replacing coppers with estates--is it going assumed but unstated that I'd much rather be replacing my estates with estates?  And we're talking about the times that I don't hit an estate?

This card is just so tactical that it's hard to have a broad discussion.  The big question is--what's left in my deck right now, and is there an action (or maybe treasure) that would be super useful to topdeck into that mix.  In the presence of an engine, I'm probably more interested in turning treasures or estates into engine components on deck in the hope of going off, and then once I'm drawing my deck using extra replaces to hand out curses. 
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Davio

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Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Replace
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2016, 05:33:05 am »
0

Most kingdoms, you'll likely play this as a plain Remodeler to turn Estates into Silvers or Cantrips presumably while being able to turn late game Golds into Provinces for a 7 VP swing.
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Chris is me

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Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Replace
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2016, 12:03:17 pm »
+2

Most kingdoms, you'll likely play this as a plain Remodeler to turn Estates into Silvers or Cantrips presumably while being able to turn late game Golds into Provinces for a 7 VP swing.

It's hard to overstate how much better the topdecking makes this compared to a vanilla Remodeler. With modest deck tracking it can really lubricate and accelerate a deck.
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Davio

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Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Replace
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2016, 01:10:22 pm »
0

I understand and that's why it costs $5, the topdecking is the cake, the Curse is just the icing.
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trivialknot

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Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Replace
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2016, 01:55:37 pm »
0

If topdecking is so great, why isn't Develop great?
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Chris is me

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Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Replace
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2016, 02:25:01 pm »
0

If topdecking is so great, why isn't Develop great?

It's less bad than it looks, but mostly the mandatory 1 less gain. Trashing a Silver with it gets you a $4... and an Estate. Trashing a $4 gets you a $5, and a Silver... Unless there is a spectrum of cards in all price ranges that you want, it creates some odd matchups.

Even so, it's not the worst Estate trasher, and not the worst $3 card ever.
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Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Replace
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2016, 02:26:55 pm »
0

If topdecking is so great, why isn't Develop great?

Develop is inflexible with its "exactly" verbage, which Remodel and Replace don't have.  Additionally, when compared with Replace, Develop is much worse for trashing Coppers (which gets you nothing) and Estates (which gets you just one top-decked $3 cost card, unless Poor House is in the kingdom).
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dedicateddan

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Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Replace
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2016, 01:45:57 pm »
+1

I've played a couple of games with replace as the primary trashing card.

These games have revolved around replacing curses and copper with estates, eventually emptying curse, estates, and a third pile (sometimes duchy)
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allanfieldhouse

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Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Replace
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2016, 06:55:24 pm »
0

I've played a couple of games with replace as the primary trashing card.

These games have revolved around replacing curses and copper with estates, eventually emptying curse, estates, and a third pile (sometimes duchy)

Is that fun? Doesn't really sound like it would be.

How mandatory did that strategy feel? Is it going to be like an IGG rush where it used to be mandatory but then people figured out how to deal with it?
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drsteelhammer

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Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Replace
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2016, 07:48:45 pm »
0

I've played a couple of games with replace as the primary trashing card.

These games have revolved around replacing curses and copper with estates, eventually emptying curse, estates, and a third pile (sometimes duchy)

Is that fun? Doesn't really sound like it would be.

How mandatory did that strategy feel? Is it going to be like an IGG rush where it used to be mandatory but then people figured out how to deal with it?

I do remember playing two Replace as only trashing against Dan. Both of the times I went for the slog and he built the engine and I'm pretty sure we won each once, so it's not really that strong. 4 cost green cards really help it, though (Silk Road, Gardens).

The topdecking helps the engine a lot, though so you can fight your way back into the game if the board allows it.

If the engine is weak anyways, you're probably better off just going for the replace slog, which looks a pretty legit strategy. The curses matter a lot more than I expected.


Overall, the card is pretty good and more interesting than it looks.
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dedicateddan

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Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Replace
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2016, 01:58:49 am »
0

I've played a couple of games with replace as the primary trashing card.

These games have revolved around replacing curses and copper with estates, eventually emptying curse, estates, and a third pile (sometimes duchy)

Is that fun? Doesn't really sound like it would be.

How mandatory did that strategy feel? Is it going to be like an IGG rush where it used to be mandatory but then people figured out how to deal with it?

Well, it really depends on the board.

If there's an engine with decent trashing, curses can easily be trashed and replace can be used as a remodel with significant upside.

If there's no other trashing on the board, replace is going to be the only card that can trash curses - and it also gives out curses, making it pretty hard to ignore. As drsteelhammer mentioned, having a good 4 cost VP card like gardens or silk road makes this stronger, as it allows for the curse -> estate -> silk road upgrade path.

So while I don't think it will happen every game, the tactic of picking up 2-3 replaces and emptying curses and estates is certainly something to consider when replace is on the board
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DaveS

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Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Replace
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2019, 01:32:31 am »
0

Got a tedious question about Replace.  First, The Official FAQ rules for Minion states: "Players wishing to respond with e.g. Moat or Diplomat do so before you choose your option."

Since Replace also has a choice for the person playing it (which card to gain), does the same requirement apply: other players reveal/play their Reaction cards before the Replace choice is made?

I'm leaning toward yes.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2019, 01:34:44 am by DaveS »
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Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Replace
« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2019, 01:58:00 am »
+2

Got a tedious question about Replace.  First, The Official FAQ rules for Minion states: "Players wishing to respond with e.g. Moat or Diplomat do so before you choose your option."

Since Replace also has a choice for the person playing it (which card to gain), does the same requirement apply: other players reveal/play their Reaction cards before the Replace choice is made?

I'm leaning toward yes.

You're correct. Other players have to use their Reactions before you trash a card.
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crj

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Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Replace
« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2019, 08:45:39 am »
0

Potentially controversial opinion: Replace is a completely inappropriate card to have sneaked into Intrigue for the Second Edition. Intrigue is supposed to involve more choices than base, but it's not supposed to be a high-skill set for expert players like Empires. Replace is difficult to read, difficult to understand, difficult to play and difficult to master.

I've not mastered it yet and probably never will. Nobody's paying me to master it, and the journey isn't fun. Why get it out of the box when Intrigue has so many delicious alternatives?
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Chris is me

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Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Replace
« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2019, 01:33:34 pm »
+4

Replace isn't that hard at all. It's a topdecking Remodel that Curses if you get Victory cards. You pretty much use it any time you'd use Remodel, with a couple extra opportunities where you wouldn't. Ie Replacing a Silver into a $5 is something you might not immediately do with Remodel but is much more likely to be correct with replace since you get it next turn.

New players I play with definitely have a harder time with cards like Minion than Replace.
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markus

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Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Replace
« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2019, 05:22:05 pm »
0

It's a topdecking Remodel that Curses if you get Victory cards.
For a second I thought that I was wrong in thinking that not all cards get topdecked. I looked up its text and indeed it doesn't topdeck Province for example...I guess crj has a point.
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Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Replace
« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2019, 06:03:19 pm »
0

I don't think Replace is hard to understand. It's Remodel, except it topdecks the card, unless the card you gain is not something that you want to topdeck, in which case it curses the opponent instead.
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