Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1] 2  All

Author Topic: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Sentry  (Read 4214 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

werothegreat

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8030
  • Shuffle iT Username: werothegreat
  • Prepare to be boarded!
  • Respect: +9283
    • View Profile
Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Sentry
« on: November 26, 2016, 12:31:57 pm »
+5


Stop right there, hooligan!

-How does this compare to Junk Dealer?
-Do you want to pick up this or a curser/looter first?
-How many do you usually want?
-When do you switch over to buying Cartographers, if ever?
Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

Roadrunner7671

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1845
  • Shuffle iT Username: Roadrunner7672
  • Forum Mafia Record: 18-33-2
  • Respect: +1330
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Sentry
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2016, 12:33:41 pm »
+1

Which card did this replace?
Logged
Oh God someone delete this before Roadrunner sees it.

Chris is me

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2511
  • Shuffle iT Username: Chris is me
  • What do you want me to say?
  • Respect: +3118
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Sentry
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2016, 12:57:34 pm »
+1

Buying it early is absolutely essential. Any later than the second shuffle and it's almost a waste of time. It won't consistently hit junk then.

You probably want two, if you can, but that is often hard to pull off.

This actually works a lot better with Cartographer, so I would get a Sentry than a Cartographer.

Junk Dealer is better in general. Anyone who says otherwise hasn't actually played with Sentry more than once. But Sentry is nice.
Logged
Twitch channel: http://www.twitch.tv/chrisisme2791

bug me on discord

they/them

faust

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2039
  • Shuffle iT Username: faust
  • Respect: +2842
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Sentry
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2016, 01:01:33 pm »
+1

Yeah; this card is suspectible to junking attacks in the midgame since it cannot consistently clear those. It is already not easy to consistently hit Curses with Ratcatcher. Sentry limits the scope of possible target even more. You can deck-track a bit, but that only gets you so far.

I like this comparison. Sentry is effectively a same-turn double Ratcatcher.

I think one of these should be plenty. I imagine that there is usually a better card to get by the time you hit $5 the second time.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2016, 01:04:10 pm by faust »
Logged
Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

Donald X.

  • Dominion Designer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4894
  • Respect: +19930
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Sentry
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2016, 02:14:09 pm »
+6

Which card did this replace?
It's not really like that. Seven cards replaced six in each set, and only a few have direct connections.
Logged

Davio

  • 2012 Dutch Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4733
  • Respect: +3323
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Sentry
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2016, 02:21:13 pm »
+2

If you neither trash nor discard, you just played a $5 Pearl Diver.  :-X

I think this is a great utility card you will get in most games, but nothing too fancy.
Logged

BSG: Cagprezimal Adama
Mage Knight: Arythea

Roadrunner7671

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1845
  • Shuffle iT Username: Roadrunner7672
  • Forum Mafia Record: 18-33-2
  • Respect: +1330
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Sentry
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2016, 02:28:35 pm »
+1

Which card did this replace?
It's not really like that. Seven cards replaced six in each set, and only a few have direct connections.
Alright, cool. Thanks!
Logged
Oh God someone delete this before Roadrunner sees it.

J Reggie

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 641
  • Shuffle iT Username: J Reggie
  • Respect: +1005
    • View Profile
    • Jeff Rosenthal Music
Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Sentry
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2016, 11:54:51 pm »
+4

Which card did this replace?

Scout. Every single 2nd edition card replaced Scout. Even the ones in the base set.

singletee

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 854
  • Shuffle iT Username: singletee
  • Gold, Silver, Copper, Let's Jam!
  • Respect: +1487
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Sentry
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2016, 01:22:56 am »
+4

Which card did this replace?

Scout. Every single 2nd edition card replaced Scout. Even the ones in the base set.

Except Patrol, that one replaced Coppersmith  :'(

JW

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 697
  • Shuffle iT Username: JW
  • Respect: +1237
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Sentry
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2016, 02:51:00 am »
+1

Strong trasher. If it's your only trasher, you'll generally want two unless you can open with it. It's weak against mid-game cursers unless you're already drawing your deck. However, a good way to draw your deck is to trash down quickly, which you can do by picking up multiple Sentries. In general, you'll want multiple Sentries before your first Cartographer.
Logged

Beyond Awesome

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2906
  • Shuffle iT Username: Beyond Awesome
  • Respect: +2405
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Sentry
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2016, 03:16:52 am »
+2

Buying it early is absolutely essential. Any later than the second shuffle and it's almost a waste of time. It won't consistently hit junk then.

You probably want two, if you can, but that is often hard to pull off.

This actually works a lot better with Cartographer, so I would get a Sentry than a Cartographer.

Junk Dealer is better in general. Anyone who says otherwise hasn't actually played with Sentry more than once. But Sentry is nice.

Getting two is not hard. That's like saying it's hard to get two Junk  Dealers or Upgrades. As for power level, it is comparable to JD and yes I have played with it more than once.
Logged

Marcory

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 636
  • Respect: +1027
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Sentry
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2016, 06:59:54 am »
+1

It totally combos with Watchtower. When you get incoming junk, you can top-deck it for your Sentry!  :P

But in all seriousness, it does counter Sea Hag, Oracle, Rabble, Fortune-Teller, and other top-deck attacks quite well.
Logged

xyz123

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 157
  • Respect: +231
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Sentry
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2016, 07:15:23 am »
+1

How does it counter Sea Hag? It will draw the curse.
Logged

J Reggie

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 641
  • Shuffle iT Username: J Reggie
  • Respect: +1005
    • View Profile
    • Jeff Rosenthal Music
Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Sentry
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2016, 09:53:32 am »
+2

How does it counter Sea Hag? It will draw the curse.

Not if your opponent played Relic!

Chris is me

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2511
  • Shuffle iT Username: Chris is me
  • What do you want me to say?
  • Respect: +3118
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Sentry
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2016, 10:02:32 am »
+1

Buying it early is absolutely essential. Any later than the second shuffle and it's almost a waste of time. It won't consistently hit junk then.

You probably want two, if you can, but that is often hard to pull off.

This actually works a lot better with Cartographer, so I would get a Sentry than a Cartographer.

Junk Dealer is better in general. Anyone who says otherwise hasn't actually played with Sentry more than once. But Sentry is nice.

Getting two is not hard. That's like saying it's hard to get two Junk  Dealers or Upgrades. As for power level, it is comparable to JD and yes I have played with it more than once.

It's not hard to get two - it's hard to get two before the second one stops adding significant value to the deck (before the third shuffle)

JD and Sentry are basically the same except that Sentry can trash twice as many cards early and has less control later since it doesn't use your hand. JD does reduce your handsize but it offsets the lost economy of the Copper you trashed anyway.

More than once I've gotten to drawing my deck or almost drawing it before being done with JD trashing, so I'd really prefer a JD on boards with both.
Logged
Twitch channel: http://www.twitch.tv/chrisisme2791

bug me on discord

they/them

JThorne

  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 298
  • Respect: +596
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Sentry
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2016, 10:54:11 am »
+1

Junk Dealer is a much better trasher. Heck, even Doctor is a better trasher, because it trashes on buy, and it looks three cards deep when trashing on play instead of just two. And Doctor is known to be relatively weak on play. Both Doctor and Sentry suffer from "bad thinner" syndrome. They work ok until your deck starts getting thin, at which point you're much more likely to have your junk in hand, which is what makes trashers that work from your hand so much better.

That said, Sentry's topdeck control/prediction can be the most useful thing about it. On boards with a use for topdeck control, it's great. On boards with no other trasher, it's okay. On boards with another trasher and no use for topdeck control, it's skippable.
Logged

Roadrunner7671

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1845
  • Shuffle iT Username: Roadrunner7672
  • Forum Mafia Record: 18-33-2
  • Respect: +1330
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Sentry
« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2016, 11:18:20 am »
+1

Which card did this replace?

Scout. Every single 2nd edition card replaced Scout. Even the ones in the base set.
Scout cannot be replaced!
Logged
Oh God someone delete this before Roadrunner sees it.

Chris is me

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2511
  • Shuffle iT Username: Chris is me
  • What do you want me to say?
  • Respect: +3118
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Sentry
« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2016, 02:09:14 pm »
+1

Junk Dealer is a much better trasher. Heck, even Doctor is a better trasher, because it trashes on buy, and it looks three cards deep when trashing on play instead of just two. And Doctor is known to be relatively weak on play. Both Doctor and Sentry suffer from "bad thinner" syndrome. They work ok until your deck starts getting thin, at which point you're much more likely to have your junk in hand, which is what makes trashers that work from your hand so much better.

That said, Sentry's topdeck control/prediction can be the most useful thing about it. On boards with a use for topdeck control, it's great. On boards with no other trasher, it's okay. On boards with another trasher and no use for topdeck control, it's skippable.

Doctor being terminal does a great deal to limit its effectiveness as a trasher, and I don't think it can be understated how much better off Sentry is by being a cantrip (not to mention being able to know what cards are trashable). Sentry can be used to thin while doing other things, where Doctor in the early game requires your terminal spot and later on requires active discarding.
Logged
Twitch channel: http://www.twitch.tv/chrisisme2791

bug me on discord

they/them

4est

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 103
  • Shuffle iT Username: 4est
  • Respect: +379
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Sentry
« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2016, 04:57:51 pm »
+3

If we're comparing Junk Dealer and Sentry, I'd agree that purely as a trasher, Junk Dealer is stronger than Sentry.  Unless you can get Sentry before your first shuffle, it becomes very difficult to line up your junk within just the two card range Sentry looks at.  Additionally, Junk Dealer's ability to trash from your hand usually gives more flexibility and potential targets to trash than Sentry does.  I've had multiple games where I play Sentry with a Copper or Estate in hand only to reveal two action cards (which I put back, hooray)--if I'd had a Junk Dealer instead, I could have at least trashed something from my hand and had +$1.  Yes, when you do flip two junk cards with Sentry and trash them, it's amazing, but that's remarkably rare--if you don't buy Sentry until after your first shuffle, it might happen once in a game if you're lucky.

As a trasher, I think I'd only choose Sentry over Junk Dealer on a 5-2 split, as the chances of trashing two cards with it are highest if you can get it right away.  Otherwise, if I can't hit $5 until turn 3 or 4, I'd go with Junk Dealer for a more reliable trasher that can provide some economy.

That said, once you're into the mid to late game, I do think Sentry becomes much stronger than Junk Dealer as it doesn't force you to trash, which makes JD a liability sometimes.  Instead, Sentry acts as a half-Cartographer, filtering your green cards from the top of your deck, while leaving the actions you want on top, and perhaps trashing the occasional Curse that pops up.  True, Sentry won't be the star of the show late game, but it also won't be a dead card in a hand full of provinces and actions like JD can become.
Logged

Limetime

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1232
  • Shuffle iT Username: limetime
  • Respect: +1165
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Sentry
« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2016, 05:11:53 pm »
+1

If we're comparing Junk Dealer and Sentry, I'd agree that purely as a trasher, Junk Dealer is stronger than Sentry.  Unless you can get Sentry before your first shuffle, it becomes very difficult to line up your junk within just the two card range Sentry looks at.  Additionally, Junk Dealer's ability to trash from your hand usually gives more flexibility and potential targets to trash than Sentry does.  I've had multiple games where I play Sentry with a Copper or Estate in hand only to reveal two action cards (which I put back, hooray)--if I'd had a Junk Dealer instead, I could have at least trashed something from my hand and had +$1.  Yes, when you do flip two junk cards with Sentry and trash them, it's amazing, but that's remarkably rare--if you don't buy Sentry until after your first shuffle, it might happen once in a game if you're lucky.

As a trasher, I think I'd only choose Sentry over Junk Dealer on a 5-2 split, as the chances of trashing two cards with it are highest if you can get it right away.  Otherwise, if I can't hit $5 until turn 3 or 4, I'd go with Junk Dealer for a more reliable trasher that can provide some economy.

That said, once you're into the mid to late game, I do think Sentry becomes much stronger than Junk Dealer as it doesn't force you to trash, which makes JD a liability sometimes.  Instead, Sentry acts as a half-Cartographer, filtering your green cards from the top of your deck, while leaving the actions you want on top, and perhaps trashing the occasional Curse that pops up.  True, Sentry won't be the star of the show late game, but it also won't be a dead card in a hand full of provinces and actions like JD can become.
I would say it's pretty hard to get sentry to miss while you have 10 junks and 4 good cards
Logged

Chris is me

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2511
  • Shuffle iT Username: Chris is me
  • What do you want me to say?
  • Respect: +3118
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Sentry
« Reply #20 on: November 28, 2016, 06:54:57 pm »
+1

If we're comparing Junk Dealer and Sentry, I'd agree that purely as a trasher, Junk Dealer is stronger than Sentry.  Unless you can get Sentry before your first shuffle, it becomes very difficult to line up your junk within just the two card range Sentry looks at.  Additionally, Junk Dealer's ability to trash from your hand usually gives more flexibility and potential targets to trash than Sentry does.  I've had multiple games where I play Sentry with a Copper or Estate in hand only to reveal two action cards (which I put back, hooray)--if I'd had a Junk Dealer instead, I could have at least trashed something from my hand and had +$1.  Yes, when you do flip two junk cards with Sentry and trash them, it's amazing, but that's remarkably rare--if you don't buy Sentry until after your first shuffle, it might happen once in a game if you're lucky.

As a trasher, I think I'd only choose Sentry over Junk Dealer on a 5-2 split, as the chances of trashing two cards with it are highest if you can get it right away.  Otherwise, if I can't hit $5 until turn 3 or 4, I'd go with Junk Dealer for a more reliable trasher that can provide some economy.

That said, once you're into the mid to late game, I do think Sentry becomes much stronger than Junk Dealer as it doesn't force you to trash, which makes JD a liability sometimes.  Instead, Sentry acts as a half-Cartographer, filtering your green cards from the top of your deck, while leaving the actions you want on top, and perhaps trashing the occasional Curse that pops up.  True, Sentry won't be the star of the show late game, but it also won't be a dead card in a hand full of provinces and actions like JD can become.
I would say it's pretty hard to get sentry to miss while you have 10 junks and 4 good cards

You'd be surprised just how rare hitting 2 good cards is in that scenario, when you include things like Sentry missing the shuffle, other card draw, etc. into the equation.
Logged
Twitch channel: http://www.twitch.tv/chrisisme2791

bug me on discord

they/them

AdrianHealey

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2244
  • Respect: +769
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Sentry
« Reply #21 on: November 28, 2016, 07:33:39 pm »
+1

This can be calculated fyi :p
Logged

JW

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 697
  • Shuffle iT Username: JW
  • Respect: +1237
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Sentry
« Reply #22 on: November 28, 2016, 07:37:06 pm »
+3

I would say it's pretty hard to get sentry to miss while you have 10 junks and 4 good cards

You'd be surprised just how rare hitting 2 good cards is in that scenario, when you include things like Sentry missing the shuffle, other card draw, etc. into the equation.

Neither Sentry missing the shuffle or other card draw (unless you draw all or all but 1-2 cards of your deck) impacts the average number of junk cards that Sentry hits in a deck of 10 junks and 4 non-junk. If you have 10 junks and 4 non-junk (not counting the Sentry that you are playing), you hit 0 junk 6.6% of the time, 1 junk 44.0% of the time, and 2 junk 49.5% of the time, for an average of 1.43 junk cards.
Logged

4est

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 103
  • Shuffle iT Username: 4est
  • Respect: +379
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Sentry
« Reply #23 on: November 28, 2016, 08:44:05 pm »
+1

I would say it's pretty hard to get sentry to miss while you have 10 junks and 4 good cards

You'd be surprised just how rare hitting 2 good cards is in that scenario, when you include things like Sentry missing the shuffle, other card draw, etc. into the equation.

Neither Sentry missing the shuffle or other card draw (unless you draw all or all but 1-2 cards of your deck) impacts the average number of junk cards that Sentry hits in a deck of 10 junks and 4 non-junk. If you have 10 junks and 4 non-junk (not counting the Sentry that you are playing), you hit 0 junk 6.6% of the time, 1 junk 44.0% of the time, and 2 junk 49.5% of the time, for an average of 1.43 junk cards.

I'm not super good at calculating the statistics of all this so these numbers are helpful (this does take into account that when you play Sentry, you'll have four other cards in your hand, plus the one you draw, right?).  I'll add that the above numbers of course assume you've purchased your Sentry on turn 3 or 4 (and purchased, let's say for simplicity's sake, silvers on turn 1 and 2), and then play it on turn 5 when your deck consists of 10 junks and 4 non-junk.  If you miss playing Sentry on turn 5 or 6, then you'll be hitting your second shuffle and have 10 junks and 6 non-junks in your deck, reducing the chances of flipping two junk significantly.  Basically my point is that if you're gaining a card each turn (that you want to keep), each turn that you don't play Sentry, your chances of trashing two junks decrease dramatically.

I'd be curious to see more simulator data on this!
Logged

Chris is me

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2511
  • Shuffle iT Username: Chris is me
  • What do you want me to say?
  • Respect: +3118
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Sentry
« Reply #24 on: November 28, 2016, 08:53:10 pm »
+1

I would say it's pretty hard to get sentry to miss while you have 10 junks and 4 good cards

You'd be surprised just how rare hitting 2 good cards is in that scenario, when you include things like Sentry missing the shuffle, other card draw, etc. into the equation.

Neither Sentry missing the shuffle or other card draw (unless you draw all or all but 1-2 cards of your deck) impacts the average number of junk cards that Sentry hits in a deck of 10 junks and 4 non-junk. If you have 10 junks and 4 non-junk (not counting the Sentry that you are playing), you hit 0 junk 6.6% of the time, 1 junk 44.0% of the time, and 2 junk 49.5% of the time, for an average of 1.43 junk cards.

Of course Sentry missing the shuffle impacts the ratio of junk cards in your deck - that's ridiculous. If it misses the shuffle there are up to five other good cards in the deck, because your turn 5 and 6 purchases are included. Other card draw increases the speed of which this third shuffle come by, increasing the ratio of good to bad cards in the deck.

I'll have to do some simulation, but the odds of Sentry bought on the second shuffle trashing two cards more than once are definitely south of 75%, and more than twice well south of 50%
« Last Edit: November 28, 2016, 08:54:38 pm by Chris is me »
Logged
Twitch channel: http://www.twitch.tv/chrisisme2791

bug me on discord

they/them
Pages: [1] 2  All
 

Page created in 0.097 seconds with 20 queries.