Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1]

Author Topic: Same Deck : Different Routes  (Read 559 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Dingan

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 897
  • Respect: +1042
    • View Profile
    • Website title
Same Deck : Different Routes
« on: November 23, 2016, 09:49:24 pm »
+6

So I try to follow awesome advice like this and this to try to determine what is the best state a deck can be in.  But one thing I feel those articles don't cover is when there are multiple different routes a deck can take to (attempt to) arrive at some similar desired state, how should I go about choosing which route?

A few different manifestations of deck states and different routes to achieve said state off the top of my head:
- I want a Champion in play and a bunch of terminals -- is it Ok to stock up on terminals while I'm still traveling, or should I just get Champion in play asap and worry about everything else later?
- I don't want Coppers now, but I do want some later -- should I thin them all out now and buy some later, or can I avoid thinning them altogether?
- I don't really want a Young Witch after the Curses are empty -- is it Ok to ignore YW and go for Familiar?
- I need an Herbalist eventually, but don't want to spend the opportunity cost now to buy it -- is it Ok to get it later even if I'm spending $12 for it?
- I want as many Minions as possible -- is it worth buying an Altar, or should I just dive right into the Minions?
- I want as many Peddlers as possible -- do I thin now and get Peddlers later, or get Peddlers now and thin later?

(Note: Some people compartmentalize the "I want as many X's as possible" scenarios as "Rushes".  I don't really like that term, as it over-generalizes games that often require very specific/subtle, yet important, decisions on how to actually win the X split.  But if that word helps you, cool.)

Below are 3 examples where I was faced with a "what is the best route to achieving this one goal?" sort of question -- two games in which I answered totally wrong, and one in which I think I answered pretty well.

Game 1
log
no Shelters, no Colonies



Code: [Select]
Ferry, Duchess, Develop, Trade Route, Tunnel, Moneylender, Navigator, Scout, Merchant Guild, Stables, Hireling
I look at this and do my good ol' fashioned board analysis, based on all what I've learned on these forums:
(1) No villages / max of 1 terminal per turn
(2) "Weak" +buy (I say "weak" because although Trade Route and MG can be powerful, it's not like they're Markets here)
(3) Navigator-Tunnel?  Eeeehhhhhh... nope.
(4) Hireling might be nice, but see (1) -- lot of opportunity cost (in both buying it, and playing it) there
(5) Ferry/Develop trick to turn Estates into either Merchant Guilds or Stables, hmm... Meh, seems gimicky to me, plus see (1) -- I'd rather be playing a Merchant Guild or Moneylender as my 1 terminal.

Stables stands out as the obvious power card here.  But what's the best terminal?  Moneylender seems fine, but seeing how it doesn't give +buy, it might lose to a deck that reliably plays a bunch of Stables and a MG to get a Province plus something else.  Develop -- would turn 3 junk cards into 1 junk card (the Develop ends up as a junk card) -- I don't think so.  This looks like I just want Stables, 1 MG, and it will be off to Province land.

Ok... how to do that?  This turned out to be a case of my opponent and me probably asking the same question.. but them getting it right and me getting it wrong.  The Ferry/Develop/Stables thing proved to be much more neat than I thought.  I felt SUPER lucky to tie the Stables split 5-5, but at which point my opponent was already ahead and had 2 less junk cards -- again, I think this was a much bigger deal than I originally thought.

Game 2
log
no Shelters, no Colonies



Code: [Select]
Ferry, Lost Arts, Page, Raze, University, Trade Route, Port, Talisman, Bridge Troll, Haunted Woods, Junk Dealer, Stables
All I'll mention about this game is that it emphasizes the whole "get cool stuff early and thin later vs. thin now and get cool stuff later" thing.  Both of our routes attempt to get a Champion and a bunch of cool terminal actions in play.  Needless to say, I thought my opponent's 5 Junk Dealers by T5 were overkill, but nay.

Game 3
log
Shelters, Colonies



Code: [Select]
Plan, Mission, Vineyard, Pawn, Storeroom, Magpie, Transmogrify, Wandering Minstrel, Lost City, Storyteller, King's Court, Peddler
Again, the good ol' fashioned board analysis:
(1) I want as many Peddlers as possible
(2) It will all be about pile control -- Magpies, Peddlers, and Pawns can empty very quickly
(3) It would be neat to Transmo a Peddler into a (essentially free) KC
(4) There are a few things to do on a Mission turn
(5) Vineyards could get very valuable, but see (2)

Taking these things into account...
I open Transmo/Storeroom.  This may seem odd at first, especially with Shelters.  I think my opponent even mentioned something about it in the chat at the time, like they were surprised or something.  Some sort of Plan-on-Magpie/Magpie thing might seem super good.  Basically, my reasoning was: You're gonna want as many Peddlers as possible.  And Coppers can get thinned out with Plan (would be nice to do Plan on Peddlers), so Magpies might become just cantrips (and things to Transmo into ... Duchies?).  I thought with Transmo/SR, I could (ideally) turn the OG and Hovel into Pawns, and start getting Peddlers asap.  The Transmo wouldn't even have to collide with the OG/Hovel, because of the whole call-this-whenever-you-want thing.  This turned out to be super correct (I think).  Magpies are good, yeah, but ya just want Peddlers here, man.  Oh and that Transmo-Peddler-KC thing can come in pretty handy.

I was pretty proud of myself for "seeing" this (Ok, I just guessed right -- I guess wrong just as much as I guess right).  I saw an "alternative" path to achieving something that my opponent was probably also trying to achieve, by doing something that at first seems pretty dumb.

Conclusion
If you're ever faced with a situation in which you (pretty confidently) know the desired state your deck should eventually be in, but there are multiple possible paths to take in order to achieve that state ... then I have no advice.  Haha.  I get this wrong probably a lot more than I get it right.  But I guess if anything, (1) realizing which paths there are, (2) at least considering the plausibility of each, and (3) critiquing your decision after the game ends (whether you won or lost) are steps in the right direction.

Thoughts?
Logged

Seprix

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5115
  • Shuffle iT Username: Seprix
  • Weed Whackers Will Return
  • Respect: +2591
    • View Profile
    • My Dominion Blog
Re: Same Deck : Different Routes
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2016, 11:06:09 pm »
+1

5 Junk Dealers WERE overkill. 3 is plenty enough. Transmogrify/Storeroom opening is just fine. Alternatively, you could open Magpie/Storeroom, but you want the Storeroom for sure.

I like that this article is just a case study on certain Kingdoms.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2016, 11:08:44 pm by Seprix »
Logged

Aleimon Thimble

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 568
  • Shuffle iT Username: Aleimon Thimble
  • Respect: +575
    • View Profile
Re: Same Deck : Different Routes
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2016, 03:45:55 am »
0

To me, Game 1 was kind of a no-brainer - the Ferry/Develop trick is the only cool thing on the entire board, and winning the Stables split is absolutely crucial, and Stables decks are not very resilient to greening so you want to ditch the Estates ASAP.

Game 2 is way more difficult. I agree with Seprix that 5 Junk Dealers is overkill - the only time I would ever get more than 3 is with heavy junking on the board. The winner isn't always right about every decision ;) I think they mainly won because of Talisman. Talisman is really strong on this board, because of Ferry's cost reduction - it's like Talisman/Quarry without the need to collide. Getting tons of stuff with Talisman also eliminates the need for University, which is kind of mediocre here. I don't know if I would have seen the strength of Talisman/Ferry though.

In Game 3, you had a very cool and flexible strategy. I understand why it raised some question marks, but it definitely paid off. I think Plan on Magpie is a mistake, you don't want to buy many Magpies, you want to gain them with your other Magpies, if you even go Magpie in the first place that is. The thing here is that the trashing is weak - you either go for Plan or Transmogrify, and both are slow and have a lot of opportunity cost associated with it. But Transmogrify wins here because you dominated the Peddler split because of it, and because you used it for a couple of very cool tricks later on (Peddler -> KC comes to mind). Definitely some expert play here. It's also interesting how Vineyard was irrelevant after all because of the early three-pile.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2016, 03:48:15 am by Aleimon Thimble »
Logged

faust

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1520
  • Shuffle iT Username: faust
  • Respect: +1905
    • View Profile
Re: Same Deck : Different Routes
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2016, 07:21:53 am »
+2

- I want a Champion in play and a bunch of terminals -- is it Ok to stock up on terminals while I'm still traveling, or should I just get Champion in play asap and worry about everything else later?
Generally I get a little more terminals than I usually would, and on the shuffle I exchange Hero into Champion I go full on terminals.

- I don't want Coppers now, but I do want some later -- should I thin them all out now and buy some later, or can I avoid thinning them altogether?
If you specifically want Copper for your deck, I think it's rarely a good idea to trash them.

- I don't really want a Young Witch after the Curses are empty -- is it Ok to ignore YW and go for Familiar?
Depends on the Bane. If the Bane is a card you want in your deck, then Familiar cursing might be faster anyways. Otherwise if you're faced with this problem I would think there's no trashing, so winning the Curse split usually goes before all other considerations.

- I need an Herbalist eventually, but don't want to spend the opportunity cost now to buy it -- is it Ok to get it later even if I'm spending $12 for it?
Yes.

- I want as many Minions as possible -- is it worth buying an Altar, or should I just dive right into the Minions?
Depends on how soon you hit $6. If you expect to use Altar at least twice before the Minions are gone, it's worth it.

- I want as many Peddlers as possible -- do I thin now and get Peddlers later, or get Peddlers now and thin later?
It's kind of rare that the best way to get lots of Peddlers isn't by thinning.
Logged
Wins: M30, M36, M41, M53, M55, M63, M66, M71, M74, M75, M77, RMM11, RMM12, RMM14, RMM16, RMM18, RMM23, NMV, M31, M42, M56, M65, RMM20, RMM24, RMM28, M61, RMM22
Losses: NM4, M33, M35, M37, M38, M45, M46, M60, M68, M69, M82, RMM13, RMM21, RMM26, M43, M51, M58, M72, M83, RMM15, RMM33

MVPs: M41, M53, M63, M65, M66, RMM20, RMM24, RMM28
Win percentage: 56.3 (27/48)
Modded games: M40, M50, M59, M69, M79, RMM19, RMM25, RMM30

Most people are complete idiots.
Pages: [1]
 

Page created in 0.214 seconds with 22 queries.