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[mcmcsalot]

But I take your point, Calamitas: they're are non-scum reasons for you to propose No Lynch. It's just scarier in your case since you are a setup master, to have missed that scum win the teamlyle scenario.

And again, the fact that I pointed it out should IC-ize me.

It really shouldn't. If it would and you were scum, pointing it out would have been a significantly easier path to victory than trying to get the no-lynch through.

the one thing i could see here is if mafia no longer has the switch and you are mafia getting "ic'd" by pointing the switch out is a "better" route to victory.

OMG it ICes me so completely. You are scum. If I hadn't pointed it out, we would do your thing and scum would win.

[mcmcsalot]

But I take your point, Calamitas: they're are non-scum reasons for you to propose No Lynch. It's just scarier in your case since you are a setup master, to have missed that scum win the teamlyle scenario.

And again, the fact that I pointed it out should IC-ize me.

It really shouldn't. If it would and you were scum, pointing it out would have been a significantly easier path to victory than trying to get the no-lynch through.

the one thing i could see here is if mafia no longer has the switch and you are mafia getting "ic'd" by pointing the switch out is a "better" route to victory.

OMG it ICes me so completely. You are scum. If I hadn't pointed it out, we would do your thing and scum would win.

fixed

the one thing i could see here is if mafia no longer has the switch and you are mafia getting "ic'd" by pointing the switch out is a "better" route to victory.

[mcmcsalot]

But I take your point, Calamitas: they're are non-scum reasons for you to propose No Lynch. It's just scarier in your case since you are a setup master, to have missed that scum win the teamlyle scenario.

And again, the fact that I pointed it out should IC-ize me.

It really shouldn't. If it would and you were scum, pointing it out would have been a significantly easier path to victory than trying to get the no-lynch through.

the one thing i could see here is if mafia no longer has the switch and you are mafia getting "ic'd" by pointing the switch out is a "better" route to victory.

OMG it ICes me so completely. You are scum. If I hadn't pointed it out, we would do your thing and scum would win.

fixed

the one thing i could see here is if mafia no longer has the switch and you are mafia getting "ic'd" by pointing the switch out is a "better" route to victory.

[mcmcsalot]

though I am leaning toward the fact that robz is town and space/cal are scum

[Robz888]

But I take your point, Calamitas: they're are non-scum reasons for you to propose No Lynch. It's just scarier in your case since you are a setup master, to have missed that scum win the teamlyle scenario.

And again, the fact that I pointed it out should IC-ize me.

It really shouldn't. If it would and you were scum, pointing it out would have been a significantly easier path to victory than trying to get the no-lynch through.

the one thing i could see here is if mafia no longer has the switch and you are mafia getting "ic'd" by pointing the switch out is a "better" route to victory.

OMG it ICes me so completely. You are scum. If I hadn't pointed it out, we would do your thing and scum would win.

fixed

the one thing i could see here is if mafia no longer has the switch and you are mafia getting "ic'd" by pointing the switch out is a "better" route to victory.

Why would mafia not have the switch when they have the roleblocking to use for night? They can roleblock the night stuff, they can't roleblock teamlyle's vote. I don't think, right mods?

[Calamitas]

But I take your point, Calamitas: they're are non-scum reasons for you to propose No Lynch. It's just scarier in your case since you are a setup master, to have missed that scum win the teamlyle scenario.

And again, the fact that I pointed it out should IC-ize me.

It really shouldn't. If it would and you were scum, pointing it out would have been a significantly easier path to victory than trying to get the no-lynch through.

the one thing i could see here is if mafia no longer has the switch and you are mafia getting "ic'd" by pointing the switch out is a "better" route to victory.

OMG it ICes me so completely. You are scum. If I hadn't pointed it out, we would do your thing and scum would win.

fixed

the one thing i could see here is if mafia no longer has the switch and you are mafia getting "ic'd" by pointing the switch out is a "better" route to victory.

Cannot be the case since teamlyles vote was present every day up until the day. So if the switch turns off teamlyle, we can be certain that they still hold the switch.

[Calamitas]

But I take your point, Calamitas: they're are non-scum reasons for you to propose No Lynch. It's just scarier in your case since you are a setup master, to have missed that scum win the teamlyle scenario.

And again, the fact that I pointed it out should IC-ize me.

It really shouldn't. If it would and you were scum, pointing it out would have been a significantly easier path to victory than trying to get the no-lynch through.

the one thing i could see here is if mafia no longer has the switch and you are mafia getting "ic'd" by pointing the switch out is a "better" route to victory.

OMG it ICes me so completely. You are scum. If I hadn't pointed it out, we would do your thing and scum would win.

fixed

the one thing i could see here is if mafia no longer has the switch and you are mafia getting "ic'd" by pointing the switch out is a "better" route to victory.

Cannot be the case since teamlyles vote was present every day up until the day. So if the switch turns off teamlyle, we can be certain that they still hold the switch.

No, that is wrong as well. Scum might have chosen a different group to block.

[Robz888]

This is so insane.

[Witherweaver]

No, I was hoping some other claims would emerge and it would narrow it down to "this person is lying or this person is lying". I'm of a generation that generally massclaims at LYLO, I just sort of thought it was the time for that to happen.

So you're saying that if you had been a vig, you'd have been willing to entirely give up any chance of shooting again and marked yourself for the next kill on the off-chance that there was a scum who'd make things easier for you by pretending to be another PR? And you'd have done that because it was the "done thing", without having considered how awful it was in your particular position? That just doesn't seem like plausible play from a player as strong as you.

@Calamitas, WW, mcmc and teamlyle, does Robz really seem like a person who was actually thinking like a vig in that situation to you?

The problem with your argument is, why weren't you making it before?  How is it different if he's a Vig vs. if he's a VT?

[Witherweaver]

So this is like my first game.  ADK claims Cop, Shraeye counterclaims him (the next day, frustratingly enough, after not quite lying that he wasn't a Cop but heavily implying so).  I, Voltaire, and Faust are left.  I insist that we should lynch Faust because I'm like 98% sure Volt is town, but Volt insists to lynch among the claims.  We end up lynching Shraeye and losing. 

[Witherweaver]

No lynch might make sense.  Right now there is one scum in {Robz, Space} and one scum in {Calam, McMc}.  Scum shoots from either group and there is a confirmed scum.  Then looking for partner interactions can reveal things; there are only two possibilities then.  Though if they shoot from {Calam, McMc, Me}, the confirmed scum is only to the remaining town there.  So they'd still have to convince {Robz, Space}.  In the other case, scum is public and we would end the day with Calam, McMc, Me.  That would be a loss but we have Teamlyle, so again 1v1 and whomever is left has to convince Teamlyle.

The scenarios are actually not that disimilar.  Actually it's effectively 3 person LyLo no matter how you cut it down, even today.  I guess the difference is, if we do it today we have to do it again tomorrow.   So more work, and more chances to get it wrong.

On the other hand, the team has to be one of

Calam+Robz
Calam+Space
McMc+Robz
McMc+Space

(and you switch your respective position).  So we need to see if any of those make sense, or if any can be ruled out.  There are also Eevee interactions, which like no one has really inspected. 

[mcmcsalot]

Yay witherweaver came back and made lots of sense. I posted all the wagons from earlier and made comments on them and then it kinda died due to theory talk.

I am actually getting more and more confident by the minute that robz/ww are town I think the three of us are posting with the most genuine concern and want to scumhunt while cal and space feel much more like they are in a defensive/aggressive mood.

[faust]

@Mod: How is the game going to be called if everyone is dead?

A faction wins if their win condition is met. If noone's win condition is met at the end of the game, everybody loses.

[faust]

can scum shoot and switch in the same night?

Yes.

And does it work to keep a Restless Spirit rendered obsolete through the next voting period?

Yes.

[faust]

They can roleblock the night stuff, they can't roleblock teamlyle's vote. I don't think, right mods?

Any PR may only target living players.

[Calamitas]

No lynch might make sense.  Right now there is one scum in {Robz, Space} and one scum in {Calam, McMc}.  Scum shoots from either group and there is a confirmed scum.  Then looking for partner interactions can reveal things; there are only two possibilities then.  Though if they shoot from {Calam, McMc, Me}, the confirmed scum is only to the remaining town there.  So they'd still have to convince {Robz, Space}.  In the other case, scum is public and we would end the day with Calam, McMc, Me.  That would be a loss but we have Teamlyle, so again 1v1 and whomever is left has to convince Teamlyle.

The scenarios are actually not that disimilar.  Actually it's effectively 3 person LyLo no matter how you cut it down, even today.  I guess the difference is, if we do it today we have to do it again tomorrow.   So more work, and more chances to get it wrong.

On the other hand, the team has to be one of

Calam+Robz
Calam+Space
McMc+Robz
McMc+Space

(and you switch your respective position).  So we need to see if any of those make sense, or if any can be ruled out.  There are also Eevee interactions, which like no one has really inspected.

We cannot no-lynch due to the way the switch works. We aren't at MyLo, we are at LyLo now.

[SpaceAnemone]

But I take your point, Calamitas: they're are non-scum reasons for you to propose No Lynch. It's just scarier in your case since you are a setup master, to have missed that scum win the teamlyle scenario.

And again, the fact that I pointed it out should IC-ize me.

It really shouldn't. If it would and you were scum, pointing it out would have been a significantly easier path to victory than trying to get the no-lynch through.

the one thing i could see here is if mafia no longer has the switch and you are mafia getting "ic'd" by pointing the switch out is a "better" route to victory.

OMG it ICes me so completely. You are scum. If I hadn't pointed it out, we would do your thing and scum would win.

fixed

the one thing i could see here is if mafia no longer has the switch and you are mafia getting "ic'd" by pointing the switch out is a "better" route to victory.

Yeah, this is my clear conclusion from this exchange, and tallys with the fact that I think Robz wouldn't have come into the day PR-hunting and asking for a claim if he was sure I was the vig, so I think they disabled me last night with the switch, so Robz can push whatever he likes about the switch now.

I do agree that it's disturbing that we never noticed that tealmyle could be rendered "really dead" with the switch till Robz brought it up, though. I'd entirely missed that facet of the set-up.

[SpaceAnemone]

No lynch might make sense.  Right now there is one scum in {Robz, Space} and one scum in {Calam, McMc}.  Scum shoots from either group and there is a confirmed scum.  Then looking for partner interactions can reveal things; there are only two possibilities then.  Though if they shoot from {Calam, McMc, Me}, the confirmed scum is only to the remaining town there.  So they'd still have to convince {Robz, Space}.  In the other case, scum is public and we would end the day with Calam, McMc, Me.  That would be a loss but we have Teamlyle, so again 1v1 and whomever is left has to convince Teamlyle.

The scenarios are actually not that disimilar.  Actually it's effectively 3 person LyLo no matter how you cut it down, even today.  I guess the difference is, if we do it today we have to do it again tomorrow.   So more work, and more chances to get it wrong.

On the other hand, the team has to be one of

Calam+Robz
Calam+Space
McMc+Robz
McMc+Space

(and you switch your respective position).  So we need to see if any of those make sense, or if any can be ruled out.  There are also Eevee interactions, which like no one has really inspected.

We cannot no-lynch due to the way the switch works. We aren't at MyLo, we are at LyLo now.

I think it's a better than 50% chance that the switch has been used, but compounding that with the 50% win at the end of the no-lynch, it's clearly not worth taking the risk, so I agree with you here.

[SpaceAnemone]

No, I was hoping some other claims would emerge and it would narrow it down to "this person is lying or this person is lying". I'm of a generation that generally massclaims at LYLO, I just sort of thought it was the time for that to happen.

So you're saying that if you had been a vig, you'd have been willing to entirely give up any chance of shooting again and marked yourself for the next kill on the off-chance that there was a scum who'd make things easier for you by pretending to be another PR? And you'd have done that because it was the "done thing", without having considered how awful it was in your particular position? That just doesn't seem like plausible play from a player as strong as you.

@Calamitas, WW, mcmc and teamlyle, does Robz really seem like a person who was actually thinking like a vig in that situation to you?

The problem with your argument is, why weren't you making it before?  How is it different if he's a Vig vs. if he's a VT?

If a high-level player comes out and blatantly PR-hunts for a role that only really works if I can keep it secret, you think drawing attention to myself by arguing too much against him is a viable alternative? Keeping quiet and hoping the VTs noticed something or said things to draw the attention away seemed to me to be the best course of action.

Notice how forceful Robz was about the need to claim, and the whole silly thing about getting teamlyle to vote and unvote really fast, where I was trying as gently as possible to point out that we hadn't even discussed whether it was wise to claim at all.. that's because he was scum trying to PR-hunt, and I was trying to get any other townie to cotton onto the fact it was a stupid idea.

[SpaceAnemone]

But I take your point, Calamitas: they're are non-scum reasons for you to propose No Lynch. It's just scarier in your case since you are a setup master, to have missed that scum win the teamlyle scenario.

And again, the fact that I pointed it out should IC-ize me.

It really shouldn't. If it would and you were scum, pointing it out would have been a significantly easier path to victory than trying to get the no-lynch through.

the one thing i could see here is if mafia no longer has the switch and you are mafia getting "ic'd" by pointing the switch out is a "better" route to victory.

OMG it ICes me so completely. You are scum. If I hadn't pointed it out, we would do your thing and scum would win.

fixed

the one thing i could see here is if mafia no longer has the switch and you are mafia getting "ic'd" by pointing the switch out is a "better" route to victory.

This actually makes me feel more confident that mcmc is Robz's buddy, and that Robz and mcmc both know that the switch is gone, so that that part of the debate is all moot anyway.

[SpaceAnemone]

Ah, have to go again :-( I'll be back to address the other stuff and put together proper cases of my own from about 1pm forum time.

[Witherweaver]

No, I was hoping some other claims would emerge and it would narrow it down to "this person is lying or this person is lying". I'm of a generation that generally massclaims at LYLO, I just sort of thought it was the time for that to happen.

So you're saying that if you had been a vig, you'd have been willing to entirely give up any chance of shooting again and marked yourself for the next kill on the off-chance that there was a scum who'd make things easier for you by pretending to be another PR? And you'd have done that because it was the "done thing", without having considered how awful it was in your particular position? That just doesn't seem like plausible play from a player as strong as you.

@Calamitas, WW, mcmc and teamlyle, does Robz really seem like a person who was actually thinking like a vig in that situation to you?

The problem with your argument is, why weren't you making it before?  How is it different if he's a Vig vs. if he's a VT?

If a high-level player comes out and blatantly PR-hunts for a role that only really works if I can keep it secret, you think drawing attention to myself by arguing too much against him is a viable alternative? Keeping quiet and hoping the VTs noticed something or said things to draw the attention away seemed to me to be the best course of action.

Notice how forceful Robz was about the need to claim, and the whole silly thing about getting teamlyle to vote and unvote really fast, where I was trying as gently as possible to point out that we hadn't even discussed whether it was wise to claim at all.. that's because he was scum trying to PR-hunt, and I was trying to get any other townie to cotton onto the fact it was a stupid idea.

My point is more that the Vig's existence was public knowledge.  If it was bad play for Vig!Rob to propose a massclaim, it was bad play for VT!Rob as well. 

[Witherweaver]

Space, Robz:

Who is the last scum, from most to least likely?

[Robz888]

Notice how forceful Robz was about the need to claim, and the whole silly thing about getting teamlyle to vote and unvote really fast, where I was trying as gently as possible to point out that we hadn't even discussed whether it was wise to claim at all.. that's because he was scum trying to PR-hunt, and I was trying to get any other townie to cotton onto the fact it was a stupid idea.

I thought it was massclaim time, I thought we would get more utility at this point having everything out in the open and making clear "it's this person or that person" determinations. I personally had no good guesses as to who was scum, and presumed my PR was forever gimped, so massclaim seemed right. And, as it so happens, the massclaim resulted in me getting 100% confirmation of one scum and a good guess at who the other is. So it's a success, exactly what I hoped would happen happened.

[Robz888]

Space, Robz:

Who is the last scum, from most to least likely?

Based on the exchange last night I'm leaning toward Calamitas. I'm still worried mcmc is gaming me, perhaps even setting up that earlier spate with Space, so I would say mcmc next. And then you last. I don't really know about you, you seem cautious and haven't set off any red flags, which is actually setting off flags itself. I suppose I should re-read before I give a definitive order.