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Author Topic: M90: Literature Mafia (Scum wins!)  (Read 154934 times)

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Calamitas

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Re: M90: Literature Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #425 on: December 16, 2016, 11:06:11 am »

And it seems to clearly fall under the cryptography umbrella, even if rudimentary.
Never ever is that crypto.

We have run previous games where such a code was considered to be illegal under the cryptography prohibition. We'll need faust's confirmation here either way.
Well, that is insane but okay. It is just as much crypto as saying "If you approve say yes". Or "If you actually think they are scummy vote them".
But yeah, nothing against asking for faust's approval.

I think what happened was one of the early games, Mafia 14 or some such, had a scum PR that turned people into chickens who could only say chicken, and so we set up some elaborate thing to make "chicken! chicken!" its own language so we could get around the restriction, and it was totally do-able but really annoying, so we decided never again with that.
Sounds actually fun :D
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Town (5/9): M85, RMM35, M87, NM9, M90RMM38, M92, M91, M102,
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gkrieg13

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Re: M90: Literature Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #426 on: December 16, 2016, 11:11:11 am »

This also happened in ?tree mafia?  I think with RR.  I remember us asking him questions and having him answer them with votes, but it was so cumbersome, that we didn't really do it.

Also it is hard to stay interested in a game when all you can do is vote.

Also, I'm not sure it is all that much better to have teamlyle as a restless spirit.  I mean he isn't exactly the most experienced player.  Having a vet as a restless spirit seems pretty awesome, having a newbie that can only vote seems a little less awesome.
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gkrieg13

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Re: M90: Literature Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #427 on: December 16, 2016, 11:13:22 am »

RMM 30
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Calamitas

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Re: M90: Literature Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #428 on: December 16, 2016, 11:15:09 am »

This also happened in ?tree mafia?  I think with RR.  I remember us asking him questions and having him answer them with votes, but it was so cumbersome, that we didn't really do it.

Also it is hard to stay interested in a game when all you can do is vote.

Also, I'm not sure it is all that much better to have teamlyle as a restless spirit.  I mean he isn't exactly the most experienced player.  Having a vet as a restless spirit seems pretty awesome, having a newbie that can only vote seems a little less awesome.
It isn't that awesome but certainly better than having someone totally dead. Either way, I'm pretty sure we are going to lynch him at some point anyways since the probability of scum killing him is really low.
vote: teamlyle
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Town (5/9): M85, RMM35, M87, NM9, M90RMM38, M92, M91, M102,
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gkrieg13

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Re: M90: Literature Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #429 on: December 16, 2016, 11:17:34 am »

vote: Calamitas
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Calamitas

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Re: M90: Literature Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #430 on: December 16, 2016, 11:19:45 am »

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Oh, i just don't like mafia games.

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Robz888

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Re: M90: Literature Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #431 on: December 16, 2016, 11:23:07 am »

Sounds actually fun :D

Scum won anyway. That was a rare game in that I was mislynched on Day 1 as a claimed Cop!

To give you a preview of why it was not as fun as you might imagine:

Chicken Vote: jotheonah
Chicken Chicken
Chicken Unvote

Chicken Vote: Captain_Frisk
Chicken Chicken
Chicken Unvote



Chicken Vote: Insomniac
Chicken Vote: Captain_Frisk
Chicken Vote: jotheonah
Chicken Vote: Cuzz
Chicken Vote: yuma
Chicken Vote: shraeye
Chicken Vote: Archetype
Chicken Vote: ashersky


Chicken Vote: Eevee
Chicken Vote: Grujah
Chicken Vote: Galzria


That actually meant something we could read at the time.
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Calamitas

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Re: M90: Literature Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #432 on: December 16, 2016, 11:25:41 am »

Sounds actually fun :D

Scum won anyway. That was a rare game in that I was mislynched on Day 1 as a claimed Cop!

To give you a preview of why it was not as fun as you might imagine:

Chicken Vote: jotheonah
Chicken Chicken
Chicken Unvote

Chicken Vote: Captain_Frisk
Chicken Chicken
Chicken Unvote



Chicken Vote: Insomniac
Chicken Vote: Captain_Frisk
Chicken Vote: jotheonah
Chicken Vote: Cuzz
Chicken Vote: yuma
Chicken Vote: shraeye
Chicken Vote: Archetype
Chicken Vote: ashersky


Chicken Vote: Eevee
Chicken Vote: Grujah
Chicken Vote: Galzria


That actually meant something we could read at the time.
Sounds even more awesome :D
Though it should be obvious that this one is orders of magnitudes less complicated since we have at most 2 players being limited like that. So actual question asking ("Do you agree that...") becomes possible.
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Town (5/9): M85, RMM35, M87, NM9, M90RMM38, M92, M91, M102,
Scum (3/3): M84, M88, M100

MVPs (1): M84

Witherweaver

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Re: M90: Literature Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #433 on: December 16, 2016, 11:30:06 am »

My point is even why try to get as close to breaking the rules while still being able to argue that you're technically not breaking them?  The point of this is not to game the rules.

I mean, heck, he's allowed to vote, so why can't he just go

Vote: No I don't really agree with that, but I do think that...

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faust

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Re: M90: Literature Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #434 on: December 16, 2016, 11:30:49 am »

Does his vote actually count?
Yes.
Is he part of the total player number still in the game?
No.
Oh, and something I just thought of, does he get to join the Speccy QT?
No.
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Calamitas

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Re: M90: Literature Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #435 on: December 16, 2016, 11:35:20 am »

My point is even why try to get as close to breaking the rules while still being able to argue that you're technically not breaking them?  The point of this is not to game the rules.

I mean, heck, he's allowed to vote, so why can't he just go

Vote: No I don't really agree with that, but I do think that...
Because that one is not a valid vote, those are clearly not allowed. And it is clearly not gaming, we are still limited by the restrictions faust set in place.
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Oh, i just don't like mafia games.

Town (5/9): M85, RMM35, M87, NM9, M90RMM38, M92, M91, M102,
Scum (3/3): M84, M88, M100

MVPs (1): M84

Witherweaver

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Re: M90: Literature Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #436 on: December 16, 2016, 11:36:42 am »

Which you from the very beginning said you are trying to circumvent...
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teamlyle

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Re: M90: Literature Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #437 on: December 16, 2016, 11:37:01 am »

Teamlyle, can you explain why you decided to claim with so little pressure on you?

I know I only had 2 votes on me when I claimed, but since I don't have much to contribute I knew the votes would soon build up.

Also, as you can probably tell I'm not that great at reading people, so I wanted it to be known that it would benefit town to help me get a little better instead of just lynching me right away so I don't learn.
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Calamitas

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Re: M90: Literature Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #438 on: December 16, 2016, 11:37:43 am »

Which you from the very beginning said you are trying to circumvent...
Well, faust gave us specific restrictions and we are well allowed to work with everything beyond that. I don't see any problem with that.
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Oh, i just don't like mafia games.

Town (5/9): M85, RMM35, M87, NM9, M90RMM38, M92, M91, M102,
Scum (3/3): M84, M88, M100

MVPs (1): M84

Witherweaver

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Re: M90: Literature Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #439 on: December 16, 2016, 11:38:30 am »

I'm just going to stop posting for a while.
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pacovf

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Re: M90: Literature Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #440 on: December 16, 2016, 11:40:28 am »

I mean, whether you want to or not, from the moment a restless spirit gets to vote directly on thread, there will be information from the timing. It seems more cumbersome to try to restrict that than to live with the small amount of info gleaned from it.

I think the recent exchange is strengthening my townread on Calamitas though.
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gkrieg13

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Re: M90: Literature Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #441 on: December 16, 2016, 11:49:49 am »

I mean, whether you want to or not, from the moment a restless spirit gets to vote directly on thread, there will be information from the timing. It seems more cumbersome to try to restrict that than to live with the small amount of info gleaned from it.

I think the recent exchange is strengthening my townread on Calamitas though.

How?  He is proposing to kill a town player, who has said that he isn't that great at reading people.  That means that his vote can also be negative utility even if he is an IC.  The main plus of having an IC is so that you can have them ask people questions and have a mindset that is confirmed town.  Just having someone who can vote and is confirmed town is horrible.

Also I'm voting for Calamitas for his last post right before my vote.  Saying that he is pretty sure that we are going to lynch him eventually because the probability of scum killing him being low.  That just comes from a scum mindset.
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Calamitas

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Re: M90: Literature Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #442 on: December 16, 2016, 11:53:20 am »

I mean, whether you want to or not, from the moment a restless spirit gets to vote directly on thread, there will be information from the timing. It seems more cumbersome to try to restrict that than to live with the small amount of info gleaned from it.

I think the recent exchange is strengthening my townread on Calamitas though.

How?  He is proposing to kill a town player, who has said that he isn't that great at reading people.  That means that his vote can also be negative utility even if he is an IC.  The main plus of having an IC is so that you can have them ask people questions and have a mindset that is confirmed town.  Just having someone who can vote and is confirmed town is horrible.

Also I'm voting for Calamitas for his last post right before my vote.  Saying that he is pretty sure that we are going to lynch him eventually because the probability of scum killing him being low.  That just comes from a scum mindset.
Why should it come from a scum mindset, it is basically a fact. Killing someone who claims a role that explains them surviving up until the end has always that kind of suspicion lingering around them. It would be quite the same if he would have claimed bomb for example. The only difference is that in this case killing town!teamlyle is just orders of magnitudes better than any other town lynch. And I don't think the probability of him being scum is small enough justify any other lynch. Teamlyle is just the optimal choice here.
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Oh, i just don't like mafia games.

Town (5/9): M85, RMM35, M87, NM9, M90RMM38, M92, M91, M102,
Scum (3/3): M84, M88, M100

MVPs (1): M84

pacovf

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Re: M90: Literature Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #443 on: December 16, 2016, 11:54:24 am »

I think trying to exploit a PR is a towny thing to do. I disagree with lynching teamlyle, but he is not the only one that wants to do so, so unless you think all of Robz, silver and Calamitas (am I forgetting someone?) are scum, that's not enough argument.

Why do you think that post you are referring to comes from a scum mindset?
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pacovf

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Re: M90: Literature Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #444 on: December 16, 2016, 11:54:47 am »

Man, this thread is so active right now.
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SpaceAnemone

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Re: M90: Literature Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #445 on: December 16, 2016, 12:17:26 pm »

I think trying to exploit a PR is a towny thing to do.

I think trying to puzzle out the rules and look for exploits is a Calamitas thing to do (and also a SpaceAnemone thing), but it's not actually that indicative of alignment. It's perfectly possible for town to have big disagreements on how to exploit game mechanics (look at me and e in Worms!), so if there's a scum player who sees a benefit for their faction in pushing one particular direction through their own internal analysis, there's probably a townie-looking argument to use to push for it in this sort of situation.
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J Reggie

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Re: M90: Literature Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #446 on: December 16, 2016, 12:23:50 pm »

Let's not lynch teamlyle. I feel like those who are saying "it's not as bad of a mislynch because he'll still be able to vote" are scum. It's still a mislynch.

J Reggie

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Re: M90: Literature Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #447 on: December 16, 2016, 12:24:23 pm »

vote: calamitas

silverspawn

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Re: M90: Literature Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #448 on: December 16, 2016, 12:50:05 pm »

I am confused by silver's analysis of the role though, it should not affect when scum wins, I assume their win condition involves only living players, not total number of votes.

The explicit win condition is "You win when all town-aligned players are dead, and there is at least one mafia-aligned player left alive, or nothing can stop that from happening."

The implicit win condition is controlling at least half of the vote, because then town can't fight back anymore. Restless Spirit prevents that by as much as a living town player.

Calamitas

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Re: M90: Literature Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #449 on: December 16, 2016, 01:13:37 pm »

I am confused by silver's analysis of the role though, it should not affect when scum wins, I assume their win condition involves only living players, not total number of votes.

The explicit win condition is "You win when all town-aligned players are dead, and there is at least one mafia-aligned player left alive, or nothing can stop that from happening."

The implicit win condition is controlling at least half of the vote, because then town can't fight back anymore. Restless Spirit prevents that by as much as a living town player.
Not by as much. Consider a scenario with 2 scum and 1 town and 1 restless spirit. Scum will enter the day quickhammering, town only has a chance if the restless spirit gambles correctly, enters the day voting scum and town is the first to hammer. 2scum + 2town would be a totally different scenario.
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Oh, i just don't like mafia games.

Town (5/9): M85, RMM35, M87, NM9, M90RMM38, M92, M91, M102,
Scum (3/3): M84, M88, M100

MVPs (1): M84
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