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Author Topic: M90: Literature Mafia (Scum wins!)  (Read 24178 times)

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Robz888

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Re: M90: Literature Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #225 on: December 12, 2016, 09:20:28 pm »

I don't agree with that. I think it's anti-town to let the ambiguity continue, but I don't think anti town behavior is a scum tell for WW.

What would be scum-indicative behaviour, coming from WW, in your opinion?

This is a good question.

... to ask yourself silently! But less to to answer here.

Why?
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silverspawn

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Re: M90: Literature Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #226 on: December 12, 2016, 09:36:01 pm »

I don't agree with that. I think it's anti-town to let the ambiguity continue, but I don't think anti town behavior is a scum tell for WW.

What would be scum-indicative behaviour, coming from WW, in your opinion?

This is a good question.

... to ask yourself silently! But less to to answer here.

Why?

Because ww's reading, and he's hard enough to detect without giving him hints what to pay attention to.
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gkrieg13

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Re: M90: Literature Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #227 on: December 13, 2016, 12:32:04 am »

Because ww's reading, and he's hard enough to detect without giving him hints what to pay attention to.

I agree that WW is hard to detect, but I think that is not because he knows how to not be scummy.  You can say that it is difficult D1 to detect scum!WW and you would be correct.
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pacovf

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Re: M90: Literature Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #228 on: December 13, 2016, 02:09:55 am »

After a super fast reread, I don't like mcmc nor teamlyle. mcmc is superbuddying Robz and giving me the bad feels, Teamlyle is throwing suspicion on Eevee in a very hedgy, non-committal way.

I think I like what I've seen from Calamitas and silver.

I am annoyed by ww, but silver is right in that it's not an alignment tell for ww.

vote: mcmc
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mcmcsalot

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Re: M90: Literature Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #229 on: December 13, 2016, 08:50:55 am »

That's just Eevee being Eevee though.

For the record, I don't think WW's joke was scummy per se, but I dislike his refusal to state clearly whether he is a PGO. While I understand why he wouldn't want to do so as town, it sets a dangerous precedent that scum will be more than happy to abuse.

This is the big deal. WW has almost refused to comment on what was definitely a claim, fake or not. (the amount of people saying I knew it was a joke is ridiculous)

It's one of those situations where ww is either scum or was anti town right out of the gate and there are a strange number of people specifically eevee, defending ww after then I expect.
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mcmcsalot

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Re: M90: Literature Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #230 on: December 13, 2016, 08:53:04 am »

After a super fast reread, I don't like mcmc nor teamlyle. mcmc is superbuddying Robz and giving me the bad feels, Teamlyle is throwing suspicion on Eevee in a very hedgy, non-committal way.

I think I like what I've seen from Calamitas and silver.

I am annoyed by ww, but silver is right in that it's not an alignment tell for ww.

vote: mcmc

Robz and I are super close, restating we are brothers in a game where I don't know robz alignment will help in future games. Let it be known robz and I will always have a "strange thing" going on between us as all our comments are colored by our relationship.
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mcmcsalot

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Re: M90: Literature Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #231 on: December 13, 2016, 08:54:21 am »

I mean, I was never claiming PGO, which should have been very clear.

Good a comment finally. Now vote:eevee
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mcmcsalot

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Re: M90: Literature Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #232 on: December 13, 2016, 09:00:16 am »

I don't agree with that. I think it's anti-town to let the ambiguity continue, but I don't think anti town behavior is a scum tell for WW.

What would be scum-indicative behaviour, coming from WW, in your opinion?

This is a good question.

... to ask yourself silently! But less to to answer here.

Why?

I also think that this interaction is strange though I believe that is because they are implying this so called "humor" I am hearing about which has no place in a game of deceit.

All in all it's not that intriguing what silver thinks is scum behavior for we but anyone's thoughts on scum behavior of anyone is helpful to discuss...again I think this in the long run means very little.
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SpaceAnemone

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Re: M90: Literature Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #233 on: December 13, 2016, 09:26:16 am »

What would be scum-indicative behaviour, coming from WW, in your opinion?

This is a good question.

... to ask yourself silently! But less to to answer here.

Why?

I also think that this interaction is strange though I believe that is because they are implying this so called "humor" I am hearing about which has no place in a game of deceit.

All in all it's not that intriguing what silver thinks is scum behavior for we but anyone's thoughts on scum behavior of anyone is helpful to discuss...again I think this in the long run means very little.
I assume "we" should be "WW", there.

The comment from silver that kicked it off was:
I think it's anti-town to let the ambiguity continue, but I don't think anti town behavior is a scum tell for WW.
(Annoyingly, the pyramid-quoting limit won't let me quote this all as a pyramid.)

Anyway, I don't see where your (mcmc's) humour issue is. I think the conversation makes sense. Silver asserts that WW plays anti-town in a scum or a town alignment, so he doesn't think WW is being necessarily scummy by doing something anti-town. I felt that silver's comment gave him too much license to town-read a potential scum-buddy, so I made a comment to highlight that, which Paco also seemed to agree was an issue. No humour going on here so far...

Silver's defence of his comment -- that it's not good to tell WW what his actual scum-tells might be -- is kind of valid, but it dodges the point that silver isn't giving the rest of us anything particularly falsifiable to work with, in terms of what he'd look like making an unjustified town-read on WW... so I'm likely just not to trust things silver says about WW for now.

Were you reading this exchange another way? If so, what am I missing?
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pacovf

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Re: M90: Literature Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #234 on: December 13, 2016, 10:19:23 am »

After a super fast reread, I don't like mcmc nor teamlyle. mcmc is superbuddying Robz and giving me the bad feels, Teamlyle is throwing suspicion on Eevee in a very hedgy, non-committal way.

I think I like what I've seen from Calamitas and silver.

I am annoyed by ww, but silver is right in that it's not an alignment tell for ww.

vote: mcmc

Robz and I are super close, restating we are brothers in a game where I don't know robz alignment will help in future games. Let it be known robz and I will always have a "strange thing" going on between us as all our comments are colored by our relationship.

Yeah, I knew you were brothers, but still... *scratches head* anyone that has played with both of them at once can tell me whether this level of buddying is normal?
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Robz888

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Re: M90: Literature Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #235 on: December 13, 2016, 10:20:51 am »

Where did this notion that regardless of alignment, WW plays anti-town, come from? It is 100% at odds with my memory of WW.

Mcmc buddying me is like the least alignment-indicative thing in the world.
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pacovf

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Re: M90: Literature Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #236 on: December 13, 2016, 10:55:58 am »

I would still like an answer from somebody else, if you don't mind :)
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silverspawn

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Re: M90: Literature Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #237 on: December 13, 2016, 11:05:52 am »

Where did this notion that regardless of alignment, WW plays anti-town, come from? It is 100% at odds with my memory of WW.

Mcmc buddying me is like the least alignment-indicative thing in the world.

I at least did not say that. I said anti-town play is not alignment-indicative. He does it as town sometimes and as scum sometimes. Not all the time.

Mcmc buddying might be normal. But is his handling of the WW thing also normal?
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Eevee

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Re: M90: Literature Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #238 on: December 13, 2016, 11:20:33 am »

That's just Eevee being Eevee though.

For the record, I don't think WW's joke was scummy per se, but I dislike his refusal to state clearly whether he is a PGO. While I understand why he wouldn't want to do so as town, it sets a dangerous precedent that scum will be more than happy to abuse.

This is the big deal. WW has almost refused to comment on what was definitely a claim, fake or not. (the amount of people saying I knew it was a joke is ridiculous)

It's one of those situations where ww is either scum or was anti town right out of the gate and there are a strange number of people specifically eevee, defending ww after then I expect.
Bolding mine. I can't speak for others, but I read it as a legitimate claim first and reacted as such, but WW's next three posts being:

I stop playing Mafia and suddenly nobody knows what a joke is.

Did no one read the thread before the game started?

I wonder how much these discussions are going to affect the game.
They probably won't at all :D

I like to falsify things people say.

cleared all the ambiguity for me. And sure, I'd like to reiterate that I believe the onus should be on WW to make his jokes clear for other people, and the fact he didn't even think there could be counterclaim issues makes what he did definitely anti-town, but it looks more like a thoughtless mistake than a mafia ploy to me (and luckily, given the setup there was no risk, or if there was some risk I'm not seeing it seems it didn't come to be).
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Eevee

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Re: M90: Literature Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #239 on: December 13, 2016, 11:22:09 am »


Mcmc buddying might be normal. But is his handling of the WW thing also normal?
I don't remember mcmc as particularly buddybuddy (or particularly non-buddybuddy for that matter) against Robz (although I guess they usually tend to agree on things?), but his handling of the WW thing read to me as someone who wasn't reading the thread very carefully.
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gkrieg13

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Re: M90: Literature Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #240 on: December 13, 2016, 11:40:19 am »


Mcmc buddying might be normal. But is his handling of the WW thing also normal?
I don't remember mcmc as particularly buddybuddy (or particularly non-buddybuddy for that matter) against Robz (although I guess they usually tend to agree on things?), but his handling of the WW thing read to me as someone who wasn't reading the thread very carefully.

What does that indicate for alignment?
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Robz888

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Re: M90: Literature Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #241 on: December 13, 2016, 11:54:53 am »


Mcmc buddying might be normal. But is his handling of the WW thing also normal?
I don't remember mcmc as particularly buddybuddy (or particularly non-buddybuddy for that matter) against Robz (although I guess they usually tend to agree on things?), but his handling of the WW thing read to me as someone who wasn't reading the thread very carefully.

Yeah, I wouldn't even call it buddying as much as, we just think similarly a lot of the time. Not all the time.
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Robz888

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Re: M90: Literature Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #242 on: December 13, 2016, 11:55:48 am »

I don't really think the WW thing is a scum master ploy either, it was just sort of annoying and I didn't get it at first, and I think that's WW's fault not mine.
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Eevee

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Re: M90: Literature Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #243 on: December 13, 2016, 11:56:31 am »


Mcmc buddying might be normal. But is his handling of the WW thing also normal?
I don't remember mcmc as particularly buddybuddy (or particularly non-buddybuddy for that matter) against Robz (although I guess they usually tend to agree on things?), but his handling of the WW thing read to me as someone who wasn't reading the thread very carefully.
What does that indicate for alignment?
Well, regardless of alignment, I think that mcmc knows the game so well that regardless of alignment, he can analyze if any behavior is protown or antitown. That one thing? I would say scum is probably more likely to be careful, and town is more likely to try to antagonize someone, so while I disagree with the content, I'm not seeing a scum narrative.

That's not based on anything mcmc-specific though, I don't really have any specific guide in my head to reading him. One of the harder guys to read too, I used to always think he was scum and be wrong, and then be totally fooled when he finally was scum.
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mcmcsalot

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Re: M90: Literature Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #244 on: December 13, 2016, 02:52:03 pm »

?
(Annoyingly, the pyramid-quoting limit won't let me quote this all as a pyramid.)

Anyway, I don't see where your (mcmc's) humour issue is. I think the conversation makes sense. Silver asserts that WW plays anti-town in a scum or a town alignment, so he doesn't think WW is being necessarily scummy by doing something anti-town. I felt that silver's comment gave him too much license to town-read a potential scum-buddy, so I made a comment to highlight that, which Paco also seemed to agree was an issue. No humour going on here so far...

Silver's defence of his comment -- that it's not good to tell WW what his actual scum-tells might be -- is kind of valid, but it dodges the point that silver isn't giving the rest of us anything particularly falsifiable to work with, in terms of what he'd look like making an unjustified town-read on WW... so I'm likely just not to trust things silver says about WW for now.

Were you reading this exchange another way? If so, what am I missing?

It wasn't so much of an issue and more of a comment about people joking being unhelpful. The series of posts seemed to be a bit confusing as silvers original response lacked complete context of why not answering the question publicly would be bad. Once silver cleared it up the reasoning actually made sense and wasn't something I had thought of. So no problems.
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mcmcsalot

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Re: M90: Literature Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #245 on: December 13, 2016, 02:58:55 pm »

Also want to clarify I was most upset at other people blowing off the ww claim before ww came in and followed up.
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Eevee

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Re: M90: Literature Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #246 on: December 13, 2016, 03:00:32 pm »

I mean, I was never claiming PGO, which should have been very clear.

Good a comment finally. Now vote:eevee
Why me?
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mcmcsalot

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Re: M90: Literature Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #247 on: December 13, 2016, 03:25:32 pm »

I mean, I was never claiming PGO, which should have been very clear.

Good a comment finally. Now vote:eevee
Why me?
I was and am suspicious of you. I didn't realize I was voting you already at the time.ill explain why I'm voting you in the next post.
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mcmcsalot

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Re: M90: Literature Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #248 on: December 13, 2016, 03:43:52 pm »

Since someone is going to be bring it up anyways, should we just agree on no claiming theory talk to avoid someone tipping off their role? If you agree, no reason to comment on this.
First we have your scummy let's not let the discussion grow organically and before anyone can comment agree on no theory talk. Slight suspicion here and shortly after we get this...

Hi guys; I'm a one-shot PGO.
Interesting. I see no reason not to believe this.
A claim and you outright believing it. Which I agree with but am not quite sure why it needs to be individually acknowledged, this is a classic "I'm contributing" post.

Then these two posts happen:
I stop playing Mafia and suddenly nobody knows what a joke is.
Claim cancelled?
I really think innocent joke is a much more likely scenario than a scum plot that was suddenly abandoned for no reason at all.
So WW comes in and makes a pretty ambiguous statement, and you latch on like obviously it's a harmless joke. Also while I agree I think WW made an anti town joke, the scum narrative here is definitely not fake claim day one and hope it works, it's to joke about a claim and provide discussion/confusion/potentially counterclaims/potentially provides an alibi.

All in all you seem to have been pushing people to believe the things that you want them to and passing it off like it's just what everyone thinks. Also how quickly you went from being super concerned about theory talk to defending WW and trying to see if you could get anyone pushing against WW lynched is super scummy. The chances that scum!eevee saw town!ww make an anti town move and you are now using that to safely scumhunt people who through shade at WW.

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Eevee

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Re: M90: Literature Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #249 on: December 13, 2016, 04:03:40 pm »

I'll name them quotes 1-3, easier to post and it's the next post anyways.

1.) My logic was: If we are not going to massclaim anyways, talking about the merits back and forth usually results in some people slipping about having/not having a role. It was top of mind because in the just ended game where I was scum with Robz and SA, we had the "so who has a power role" hunt based on the theory talk of day 1. I don't know, I felt it was worth it to float the idea of avoiding that, especially now that more people are likely to have roles. It's not like I tried to ban theory talk, just thought to remind people that if you feel you don't want to massclaim or anyone to claim, probably the best course of action is not to talk about claiming.

2.) Eh, I was online and saw a claim early day 1 and reacted. Would do it again, would encourage others to act the same way!

To further explain myself, I outright believed it after considering if I thought it was likely WW would do that as scum (decided no, posted about it in the thread).

3. I don't think that's ambiguous - looks clear as day to me that he wouldn't say that unless he had meant it as a joke. Not sure what's happening here, but others seem to agree with me.

I don't understand your scum narrative - has anyone ever played scum like that?

It's not my intention to push people to believe anything. I'm trying to post my opinions about events in the game to discuss them and figure things out.

And meh, I just thought people throwing shade at WW were being very short-sighted, not considering "Hey, does this make sense for mafia", but just posting "Hey, it's annoying he made a bad joke, must not be on the same side as me!" out of frustration. Robz even admitted as much here:
I don't really think the WW thing is a scum master ploy either, it was just sort of annoying and I didn't get it at first, and I think that's WW's fault not mine.

I totally agree that it was WW's fault, but not that it's particularly productive to blame him for it, especially since there was no bad consequence as far as I can tell.

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