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[Limetime]

Champion is in play.
I have 1 action
I play storyteller playing diadem.
Do I draw 4 or 5 cards?

[AdrianHealey]

Playing storyteller => uses 1 action, you gain 1 action (storyteller), gain another action (champion)

Than you play diadem: +$2.

So +$2 + 2 actions + 1 the coin from storyteller.

So 5 in total.

Why would you think 6?

[Limetime]

If the champion is resolved after the card is then you would get 4 cards. For 6 i just mathed wrong.

[GendoIkari]

Playing storyteller => uses 1 action, you gain 1 action (storyteller), gain another action (champion)

Than you play diadem: +$2.

So +$2 + 2 actions + 1 the coin from storyteller.

So 5 in total.

Why would you think 6?

To be precise... "you gain 1 action (Champion), gain another action (Storyteller)". Champion happens first. "When you play a card" is before following any instructions on the card. Evidence is Moat.

[Donald X.]

To be precise... "you gain 1 action (Champion), gain another action (Storyteller)". Champion happens first. "When you play a card" is before following any instructions on the card. Evidence is Moat.

Moat now says "first." By default "when x happens" happens directly after x has finished happening, in almost all games (but not Magic). Moat being an exception was a mistake that the new wording is trying to fix.

With old Moat and old Champion (not that there's necessarily a new wording, but for utter clarity here), of course Champion should work how Moat does. But I fixed Moat and so during these days, endless or not, with no tweak to Champion, Moat works first but Champion does not. You get +1 Action after you finish resolving the Action card.

[singletee]

To be precise... "you gain 1 action (Champion), gain another action (Storyteller)". Champion happens first. "When you play a card" is before following any instructions on the card. Evidence is Moat.

Moat now says "first." By default "when x happens" happens directly after x has finished happening, in almost all games (but not Magic). Moat being an exception was a mistake that the new wording is trying to fix.

With old Moat and old Champion (not that there's necessarily a new wording, but for utter clarity here), of course Champion should work how Moat does. But I fixed Moat and so during these days, endless or not, with no tweak to Champion, Moat works first but Champion does not. You get +1 Action after you finish resolving the Action card.

Do Horse Traders and Caravan Guard happen before before the attack resolves? If not, that's a huge functional change. If so, why doesn't Champion happen at the same time as them? And if there are unpublished tweaks to HT and CG giving them "first" wording, why not do the same for Champion? It seems inconsistent to me, whereas the way I thought Champion worked (getting +1 Action before the card effects) matches the functionality of every other When-play effect in the game.

[Donald X.]

Do Horse Traders and Caravan Guard happen before before the attack resolves?

It seems likely that they will end up matching Moat. I mean, as written, they don't really work.

If so, why doesn't Champion happen at the same time as them? And if there are unpublished tweaks to HT and CG giving them "first" wording, why not do the same for Champion? It seems inconsistent to me, whereas the way I thought Champion worked (getting +1 Action before the card effects) matches the functionality of every other When-play effect in the game.

Champion doesn't need to squeeze in ahead of the action, something that would only ever matter with Diadem. The inconsistent things here are react-to-attacks, not Champion. The fix would be to further change Moat etc., which I would do if starting from scratch but I wasn't and so didn't.

You are complaining about the interaction between Champion, Diadem, and Storyteller. Two of those cards, you can't even buy; you have to upgrade a Page and win a Tournament.

[Jeebus]

Do Horse Traders and Caravan Guard happen before before the attack resolves? If not, that's a huge functional change.

I was thinking the same thing. I mean, we can't really play* with a Horse Traders, a Caravan Guard or a Beggar with no functional reaction ability "during these days, endless or not". (And for Secret Chamber it really would be endless; yes the card is "replaced", but is still considered to be playable and compatible with the game as far as I understand.) So clearly the functional difference between "first" or not "first" has to be ignored.

*Disclaimer: I mean in all settings where a strict interpretation of the rules are desirable, like tournaments or the online platform. I'm of course aware that for casual play you can play however you like.

[werothegreat]

To me, Champion's "when you play" is different from Royal Carriage's "after you resolve"; the former happens the instant the card hits the table, the latter happens once you're done doing everything the card says.  Certainly Champion's effect doesn't occur after an Action is resolved, or it would be worded like that, MTG's conventions or not.

[GendoIkari]

To me, Champion's "when you play" is different from Royal Carriage's "after you resolve"; the former happens the instant the card hits the table, the latter happens once you're done doing everything the card says.  Certainly Champion's effect doesn't occur after an Action is resolved, or it would be worded like that, MTG's conventions or not.

The problem seems to be that Dominion established a convention different from the one that Donald says is used everywhere else. "When you play" has always meant before you follow the instructions on the card in Dominion. In fact, it's been pretty well established that "when you play this" automatically precedes all instructions on cards. So "when you play" can't really mean "after you follow all instructions on this card", because if it did, then how does that work with Treasures that say "when you play this"? Relic would become "When you [finish following the instructions on this card], each other player puts his -1 Card token on his deck"... which makes no sense.

Also, adding "first" doesn't really change this. If "when you play this" means "after you have finished playing this", then "first" doesn't change that; it just says that it's the first thing that would happen at that time. Under that understanding of "when another player plays an Attack card", Moat would have to say "before another player plays an Attack card".

I understand the desire to get rid of the common question "do I have to chose to reveal Moat before my opponent chooses how to their Minion?" but it seems like changing the meaning of "when you play" just causes more confusion and weirdness. As Wero says, if "when you play" is defined that way, then "after you resolve" is unnecessary.

By default "when x happens" happens directly after x has finished happening, in almost all games (but not Magic). Moat being an exception was a mistake that the new wording is trying to fix.

Not clear on "but not Magic". "When x happens" in Magic is still directly after x has finished happening. And I think it's not even inconsistent with Dominion under 1st edition wordings. As long as we define "play" to be the act of choosing the card and putting it into play, and "resolve" to be the act of following the instructions that are on the card; which you do immediately after playing it. So when my opponent chooses to reveal Moat, I've already played the action; I just haven't resolved it yet. I know you aren't a fan of the Magic stack; but this fits in with the idea of casting a card and then waiting for it to resolve.

[Jeebus]

Also, adding "first" doesn't really change this. If "when you play this" means "after you have finished playing this", then "first" doesn't change that; it just says that it's the first thing that would happen at that time. Under that understanding of "when another player plays an Attack card", Moat would have to say "before another player plays an Attack card".

That depends how we are supposed to understand the meaning of "first". It seems clear that the meaning is "before resolving the played card" (i.e. "out of resolving the played card and doing this, do this first"). So in that sense "first" is a nice clarification. Its addition just can't create a functional difference, for the reasons that have already been given in this thread.

[Donald X.]

The problem seems to be that Dominion established a convention different from the one that Donald says is used everywhere else. "When you play" has always meant before you follow the instructions on the card in Dominion. In fact, it's been pretty well established that "when you play this" automatically precedes all instructions on cards. So "when you play" can't really mean "after you follow all instructions on this card", because if it did, then how does that work with Treasures that say "when you play this"? Relic would become "When you [finish following the instructions on this card], each other player puts his -1 Card token on his deck"... which makes no sense.

Also, adding "first" doesn't really change this. If "when you play this" means "after you have finished playing this", then "first" doesn't change that; it just says that it's the first thing that would happen at that time. Under that understanding of "when another player plays an Attack card", Moat would have to say "before another player plays an Attack card".

I am trying to give cards wordings that make it clear what happens in the game. At the same time the clearest possible wordings (computer programs) make the game unplayable, so I don't use those.

"When you play this" on a card, such as a special Treasure or Noble Brigand, is clarifying that what follows is something that the card does when played. It would be nice to not have that text on Treasures, but it seemed necessary back when.

"When another player plays an Attack card, first" is clarifying that what you are doing happens before the Attack card does anything.

I don't have much data on "first," but no-one is ever confused by "When you play this" on Treasures. So it did its job, it communicated successfully. Good luck, "first!" I'm optimistic.

I do not always have lots of time to spend considering extremely exotic situations in Dominion. If I wanted to seriously consider this issue again, I would search through the card texts for "when you play" effects, see how unique of a case Champion was; then I'd look at the future Adventures rulebook to see what rulings might be contradictory. For all I know I would see the light. But well, I try to be there for people, but Champion / Diadem / Storyteller, I only have so much time.

Not clear on "but not Magic". "When x happens" in Magic is still directly after x has finished happening.
And I think it's not even inconsistent with Dominion under 1st edition wordings. As long as we define "play" to be the act of choosing the card and putting it into play, and "resolve" to be the act of following the instructions that are on the card; which you do immediately after playing it. So when my opponent chooses to reveal Moat, I've already played the action; I just haven't resolved it yet. I know you aren't a fan of the Magic stack; but this fits in with the idea of casting a card and then waiting for it to resolve.

It seems for the best to not have a tangential discussion about Magic. Dominion does have a stack, but it's implicit; it's not part of the rules, which is great, because a stack that's part of the rules is super-confusing.