# Dominion Strategy Forum

• July 22, 2018, 12:16:39 pm
• Welcome, Guest

### News:

DominionStrategy Wiki

Pages: [1]

### AuthorTopic: You can't play them all at once  (Read 2115 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

#### faust

• Mountebank
• Offline
• Posts: 2021
• Respect: +2822
##### You can't play them all at once
« on: November 16, 2016, 06:43:38 am »
+2

On a given board, assume that your deck consists of nothing but Treasure cards. No cards in any weird places (Mats, in play, set aside etc.). Your discard is empty.

You can fix any hand of 5 treasure cards that you want to start your turn with. Your challenge is to find a hand of 5 cards, and a fixed ordering of the rest of your deck such that your can maximise the range of \$ you are able to cash in if you play all cards in your hand.

In order to preserve our sanity, we will exclude Counterfeit, Crown and Venture from this challenge. And no Villa. Never Villa.

Clarifications:
- you have to play every card that ends up in your hand.
- the state your deck is in has to be possible, i.e. you should be able to give a kingdom that allows you to form this deck.
- it is not enough that you can score \$4 and \$40; you have to be able to score every value in between.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2016, 09:30:46 am by faust »
Logged
Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

#### LaLight

• Minion
• Offline
• Posts: 660
• Because I'm a potato
• Respect: +832
##### Re: You can't play them all at once
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2016, 06:56:36 am »
0

hand is 5 PStones.

Deck is: 60 coppers + 40 silvers + 30 Golds + 12 Platinums + 10*10-5 (in hand) Kingdom Treasures = 237=~235(/5*5)=\$235

Edit: +16 potions of course. 253=~250=\$250
« Last Edit: November 16, 2016, 06:58:56 am by LaLight »
Logged
Wow where is all this LaLight love coming from all of the sudden?

Wins: M87, M85, M92, M99, M107, RMM37, RMM39, RMM44, RMM45, BM24, M86, M94, M95, M100, ZM24
Losses: M88, M90, RMM38, NM8, NM9, M97, M106, RMM46, RMM48, ZM23, NM10, M115, M108
Draws: RMM40
MVPs: RMM39, RMM44
Mod/Co-mod: RMM37, M89, M93, M91, M96, RMM41, M98, M101, M102, M104, M105, M109

#### faust

• Mountebank
• Offline
• Posts: 2021
• Respect: +2822
##### Re: You can't play them all at once
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2016, 07:06:05 am »
+1

I think either my assignment is unlcear, or LaLight wants to score an early lead with a range of 0.
Logged
Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

#### faust

• Mountebank
• Offline
• Posts: 2021
• Respect: +2822
##### Re: You can't play them all at once
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2016, 07:08:06 am »
0

Maybe an example is in order:

Hand is 5 IGGs.

I can score anything from \$5 to \$10, giving me a range of 5.
Logged
Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

#### LaLight

• Minion
• Offline
• Posts: 660
• Because I'm a potato
• Respect: +832
##### Re: You can't play them all at once
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2016, 07:14:21 am »
0

Maybe an example is in order:

Hand is 5 IGGs.

I can score anything from \$5 to \$10, giving me a range of 5.

Oh i see! I thought thing is that I take the fixed cards in my deck and having them can change my hand so I can have any number from 5 to 250. Now I see. Sorry
Logged
Wow where is all this LaLight love coming from all of the sudden?

Wins: M87, M85, M92, M99, M107, RMM37, RMM39, RMM44, RMM45, BM24, M86, M94, M95, M100, ZM24
Losses: M88, M90, RMM38, NM8, NM9, M97, M106, RMM46, RMM48, ZM23, NM10, M115, M108
Draws: RMM40
MVPs: RMM39, RMM44
Mod/Co-mod: RMM37, M89, M93, M91, M96, RMM41, M98, M101, M102, M104, M105, M109

#### navical

• Golem
• Offline
• Posts: 186
• Respect: +236
##### Re: You can't play them all at once
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2016, 08:05:21 am »
+3

First effort gives me 6-22, so a range of 16.

hand: charm, igg, bank, bank, fortune
fortune, bank, bank, igg (no copper), charm (no \$) = 6
fortune, bank, bank, igg (copper), charm (no \$), copper = 7
bank, bank, igg (no copper), charm (no \$), fortune = 8
bank, bank, igg (copper), charm (no \$), fortune, copper = 9
bank, bank, igg (copper), copper, charm (no \$), fortune = 10
bank, bank, igg (copper), fortune, copper, charm (2\$) = 11
bank, bank, igg (copper), copper, fortune, charm (2\$) = 12
bank, igg (copper), bank, fortune, charm (no \$), copper = 13
bank, igg (no copper), bank, fortune, charm (2\$) = 14
bank, igg (copper), bank, fortune, charm (2\$), copper = 15
bank, igg (copper), bank, copper, fortune, charm (2\$) = 16
igg (copper), bank, bank, charm (2\$), fortune, copper = 17
igg (copper), bank, bank, charm (2\$), copper, fortune = 18
igg (copper), bank, charm (2\$), bank, fortune, copper = 19
igg (copper), bank, charm (2\$), bank, copper, fortune = 20
igg (copper), charm (2\$), bank, bank, fortune, copper = 21
igg (copper), charm (2\$), bank, bank, copper, fortune = 22

You can make \$24 and \$26 as well but I can't see any way to make \$23 or \$25.

edit: forgot that bank would count fortune

edit: improved to 7-26, a range of 19:

hand: fortune (f), bank (b), bank (b), igg (i), igg (i); copper will be denoted as c:

fbbii = 7
fbibi = 8
fbiib = 9
fibib = 10
fiibb = 11
fiibbc = 12
fiibcb = 13
fiicbb = 14
fiicbbc = 15
fiicbcb = 16
fiiccbb = 17
ificcbb = 18
iifccbb = 19
iicfcbb = 20
iiccfbb = 21
iibbccf = 22
iibcbfc = 23
iibcbcf = 24
iicbbfc = 25
iicbbcf = 26
« Last Edit: November 16, 2016, 08:13:35 am by navical »
Logged

• Torturer
• Offline
• Posts: 1845
• Forum Mafia Record: 18-33-2
• Respect: +1329
##### Re: You can't play them all at once
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2016, 08:06:53 am »
0

My range is \$25 with a hand of 5 Platinums
Logged
Oh God someone delete this before Roadrunner sees it.

#### faust

• Mountebank
• Offline
• Posts: 2021
• Respect: +2822
##### Re: You can't play them all at once
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2016, 08:20:31 am »
0

My range is \$25 with a hand of 5 Platinums
That's a range of 0.
Logged
Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

#### majiponi

• Duke
• Offline
• Posts: 390
• Respect: +336
##### Re: You can't play them all at once
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2016, 09:07:42 am »
0

Hand: 1 Horn, 4 Philosopher
Deck: 4 Copper
\$0-4

May I use Villa method to execute evil combo?
(Starting hand/deck IS Treasure only.)
« Last Edit: November 16, 2016, 09:14:59 am by majiponi »
Logged

#### faust

• Mountebank
• Offline
• Posts: 2021
• Respect: +2822
##### Re: You can't play them all at once
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2016, 09:29:05 am »
0

Oh, no Villa. I'd allow the excluded Treasures before I allow Villa.

I can get to a range of 25 right now.
Logged
Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

#### tailred

• Golem
• Offline
• Posts: 187
• Respect: +346
##### Re: You can't play them all at once
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2016, 10:18:23 am »
+3

If I'm not misintepreting how cards work, I have a set that massively outperforms 25, though I'm too lazy to actually extend it past 25. Absolute minimum (that I've found) is \$16, I'm at \$42 right now.

Edit: Alright, I think I've hit my limit, so here goes:

Setup: +card token on Encampment/Plunder.
Hand: Fortune, IGG, Bank x 2, Plunder
Deck: 4 Plunders, then Charm.

16 : Fortune, Bank, Bank, Plunder * 5, igg blank, charm blank.
17: Bank, Bank, Fortune, Plunder * 5, igg blank, charm blank.
18: 17 + copper
19: 17 + charm
20: 18 + charm
21: igg blank, Fortune, Bank, Bank, Plunder * 5, Charm
22: igg, Fortune, Bank, Bank, Plunder * 5, Charm, Copper.

This middle bit is a little boring, basically given an odd construction and an even construction which plays both banks before the fortune, we can increment stuff by 2 by systematically moving plunders/coppers/charm before the fortune, then before each bank in turn.
The limits are first hit by the odd ones, because the copper must be stuck at the end, after the fortune.

61: igg, Plunder * 5, Charm, Bank * 2, Fortune, Copper.
62: Igg, Plunder * 5, Copper, Bank * 2, Charm, Fortune.

This gives a range of 47. I suspect Charm's unnecessary, and replacing it with a third bank might help, but I'm too lazy to explore that. Also to try: stick the +1 action token on plunder too, and replace IGG with Diadem.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2016, 10:40:45 am by tailred »
Logged

#### majiponi

• Duke
• Offline
• Posts: 390
• Respect: +336
##### Re: You can't play them all at once
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2016, 07:05:25 pm »
0

Improved:

play Dungeon
buy Bonfire twice to trash the 3 Actions
(No card is in weird place. Just in trash, which is not mine.)

Now your hand is 5 Horn of Plenty.
draw 4 Horn of Plenty
Your deck has at least 5 Banks, 4 Platinums
You can earn \$0 - \$55.
Logged

#### Limetime

• Saboteur
• Offline
• Posts: 1232
• Respect: +1165
##### Re: You can't play them all at once
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2016, 07:17:01 pm »
0

hand is 5 PStones.

Deck is: 60 coppers + 40 silvers + 30 Golds + 12 Platinums + 10*10-5 (in hand) Kingdom Treasures = 237=~235(/5*5)=\$235

Edit: +16 potions of course. 253=~250=\$250
with fortune, philstone*4
You can have a variance of 200.
Logged

#### ephesos

• Explorer
• Offline
• Posts: 310
• Respect: +262
##### Re: You can't play them all at once
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2016, 01:05:18 am »
0

hand is 5 PStones.

Deck is: 60 coppers + 40 silvers + 30 Golds + 12 Platinums + 10*10-5 (in hand) Kingdom Treasures = 237=~235(/5*5)=\$235

Edit: +16 potions of course. 253=~250=\$250
with fortune, philstone*4
You can have a variance of 200.
- it is not enough that you can score \$4 and \$40; you have to be able to score every value in between.
Logged

#### ephesos

• Explorer
• Offline
• Posts: 310
• Respect: +262
##### Re: You can't play them all at once
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2016, 01:07:10 am »
+6

I have 5 Copper in hand and 4,294,967,295 Coin tokens, giving me a range from 5 to 4,294,967,300.
Logged

#### Limetime

• Saboteur
• Offline
• Posts: 1232
• Respect: +1165
##### Re: You can't play them all at once
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2016, 01:15:50 am »
+3

I have 5 Copper in hand and 4,294,967,295 Coin tokens, giving me a range from 5 to 4,294,967,300.
Well I have 4,294,967,296 coin tokens...
Logged

#### ephesos

• Explorer
• Offline
• Posts: 310
• Respect: +262
##### Re: You can't play them all at once
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2016, 01:18:47 am »
+4

I have 5 Copper in hand and 4,294,967,295 Coin tokens, giving me a range from 5 to 4,294,967,300.
Well I have 4,294,967,296 coin tokens...
Oh shoot, I don't think I can beat that...
Logged

#### majiponi

• Duke
• Offline
• Posts: 390
• Respect: +336
##### Re: You can't play them all at once
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2016, 03:04:17 am »
0

I have 5 Copper in hand and 4,294,967,295 Coin tokens, giving me a range from 5 to 4,294,967,300.
Well I have 4,294,967,296 coin tokens...
Oh shoot, I don't think I can beat that...

No Coin tokens, I think. The question is
... such that your can maximise the range of \$ you are able to cash in if you play all cards in your hand.
Using Coin token is not playing a card. All coins have to be from playing cards.
Logged

#### tailred

• Golem
• Offline
• Posts: 187
• Respect: +346
##### Re: You can't play them all at once
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2016, 05:08:14 am »
+4

As a serious attenpt: range of 121, from 7 to 128. It's really tedious so I'm not listing most combinations.

Setup: coin/action/card tokens on plunder, ferry token on mandarin. Copper/Curse piled.
Hand: Fortune, Bank, HoP, Diadem, Plunder.
Deck: Plunder*4, Phil Stone, then 349 other treasures (use 6p and spoils and stuff).
7: Fortune, Diadem, HoP (Gaining Mandarin, topdecking fortune), Bank, Plunder, Fortune.

Most of everything is similar to my previous solution, shifting things past bank/diadem to increment by 1/2. HoP gaining mandarin allows us to replay a variable number of plunders and one of diadem/bank/fortune. Example:
42: FBP4DHP5B.
53: FP4DBHP5D.

We get the same odd/even split and again odd is the limiter (we hold a Plunder, aand try to use an odd-valued Bank/Diadem afterr Fortune.)
87: P4DBHP5FB

Even is chill, though.
104: P4DBHP5DF

What about 89 then? That's where our superpowered Pstone comes in. Drawing everything relevant and before the HoP gain, it's worth 69. After it, it's 70. This lets us handle parity.

89: FDP5HBS (S being Pstone, H gaining Mandarin)
127: H(gaining nothing)P5DBFS
128:P5DHBFS(Gaining like Silver)
« Last Edit: November 17, 2016, 08:05:11 am by tailred »
Logged

#### Limetime

• Saboteur
• Offline
• Posts: 1232
• Respect: +1165
##### Re: You can't play them all at once
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2016, 10:57:05 am »
0

I have 5 Copper in hand and 4,294,967,295 Coin tokens, giving me a range from 5 to 4,294,967,300.
Well I have 4,294,967,296 coin tokens...
Oh shoot, I don't think I can beat that...

No Coin tokens, I think. The question is
... such that your can maximise the range of \$ you are able to cash in if you play all cards in your hand.
Using Coin token is not playing a card. All coins have to be from playing cards.
It never says you have to get your coins from the treasures.
Logged
Pages: [1]

Page created in 0.089 seconds with 21 queries.