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Author Topic: Ironwork-ish drawer  (Read 2676 times)

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tristan

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Ironwork-ish drawer
« on: November 06, 2016, 04:36:15 am »
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OK, this is inspired by Ben's Foundry.


Name: Coal Miner
Type: Action
Cost:

Reveal the top 3 cards of your deck, name a type and put the revealed cards of this type into your hand. Put any number of the other revealed cards onto your deck and discard the rest.
If you named ...
Action card, +1 Action
Treasure card, +           
Victory card, +1 Card per revealed Victory card, +1 per revealed Victory card



Foundry's main problem is, as Fragasnap has pointed out, that it is a very strong BM card. My version rather suffers from the opposite problem, you might sometimes end up with "+2 Cards, +1$" if you choose Treasures which is a bit worse than Smithy. But two coins is clearly too much.
As Victory cards are often the worst choice I tried to add the VP token but it might not be enough.
With Action cards this might be most (or even too) attractive, as it is a cantrip / Lab / Double Lab. You could also view it as a small Scrying Pool.

About the costs, my hunch is that it is too strong for 4 and too weak for 5, hence the debt cost. I am also not sure about whether the rest should be discarded or topdecked or both. Discarding seems cleaner and clearly better if you go for an engine. Topdecking might be better if you play a second Coal Miner.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2016, 06:03:57 am by tristan »
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Ironwork-ish drawer
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2016, 06:25:33 am »
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Just out of curiosity, did you see Foundry first from my thread?

As for the card, it looks cool. The cost looks a little superflous though, maybe putting it at and just buffing it? And while none of the options are power in their own right, it has flexibility.
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tristan

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Re: Ironwork-ish drawer
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2016, 06:52:01 am »
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Just out of curiosity, did you see Foundry first from my thread?

As for the card, it looks cool. The cost looks a little superflous though, maybe putting it at and just buffing it? And while none of the options are power in their own right, it has flexibility.
Nope, I saw it back in the days but you due to your giant art project you reminded me of it again.  :)

I am not sure about any of the values, this requires some playtesting.
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navical

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Re: Ironwork-ish drawer
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2016, 09:19:40 am »
+1

If it discards the other cards then in BM it's basically no different to +3 Cards +$1 since you didn't care about the non-Treasures anyway.

Similarly in a treasureless engine it's +3 Cards +1 Action and even in an engine with some treasures it's not far off since you don't need to draw the treasures until the end.

On the other hand, if you try to play anything inbetween it's pretty bad but I still think it is probably too good even to be a 5.
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tristan

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Re: Ironwork-ish drawer
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2016, 09:26:57 am »
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I don't follow you here.
In order to be too good for 5 you need to either reveal 3 Actions. With 2 it is just a Lab with some sifting. But if 2/3 of your cards are Action cards you already have a pretty good engine running.

In the case of 3 Treasures "+3 Cards, +1$" is a fairly mediocre 5 whereas "+2 Cards, +1$" is similar in strength so Smithy.
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Chris is me

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Re: Ironwork-ish drawer
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2016, 12:19:57 pm »
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I almost wonder if the concept could work in reverse as a cheaper card. As in, name a type, reveal, discard the matches, get a boost per card you discard.

As is, 6D is too cheap. 6D is essentially less than $5. I'd bump it to 7D or $4/2D.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2016, 12:54:07 pm by Chris is me »
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Ironwork-ish drawer
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2016, 01:47:27 pm »
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I don't like giving you free VP. It seems too easy to build an unstoppable VP engine with this and lost arts.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Ironwork-ish drawer
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2016, 06:35:42 pm »
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I don't like giving you free VP. It seems too easy to build an unstoppable VP engine with this and lost arts.

In general I'd agree, but terminal +1 card/+1 VP plus Scout doesn't seem stronger than Monument.  Lost Arts is possibly something to consider, and might be worth changing the +1 card to something else for, but even that doesn't seem nearly as good as Bishop/Fortress. 
« Last Edit: November 06, 2016, 10:24:49 pm by Deadlock39 »
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tristan

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Re: Ironwork-ish drawer
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2016, 03:29:55 am »
+2

I don't like giving you free VP. It seems too easy to build an unstoppable VP engine with this and lost arts.
Lost Arts (or TR variants) can convert any terminal card that provides VPs into a (quasi) non-terminal none.
As it stand the Victory card option is by far the weakest, especially when you compare it to cards like Patrol. So I do consider to change it into:


Name: Coal Miner
Type: Action
Cost: 6

Name a type.
Reveal the top 3 cards of your deck and put the revealed cards of the named type into your hand. Discard the rest.
If you named ...
Action card, +1 Action
Treasure card, +           
Victory card, +1 Card per revealed Victory card, +1 per revealed Victory card
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: Ironwork-ish drawer
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2016, 02:51:50 am »
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The 'per revealed victory card' part makes it too complex IMO. (says the pot)

I like the idea, but if it's too strong for $5, then why not make it strong enough for or ?
Here's my version (a little more like Ben's Foundry):
Quote
Coal Miner
Cost Action
Reveal the top 3 cards of your deck. Choose a type and put the revealed cards of the chosen type into your hand. Discard the rest. If you chose... Action, +1 Action; Treasure, +$1; Victory, +2 Cards, +1VP.
I'm thinking revealing the cards before choosing a type should make it strong enough to cost . Also considering changing the 'Treasure' type bonus to +1 Buy instead of +$1.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2016, 02:54:25 am by LibraryAdventurer »
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tristan

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Re: Ironwork-ish drawer
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2016, 03:56:50 am »
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I don't think that my version is too strong for 5 but that it is between a 4 and a 5.

Your version of deciding after drawing is interesting and I considered it as a buff to make my card a 5 ... but I doubt that it is worth 8 Debt. In order for this to be better than Lab you need to reveal 3 out of 3 Action cards which rarely happens. And the Treasure option is only better than a Smithy if you draw 3 out of 3 Treasures.
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loneXolf

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Re: Ironwork-ish drawer
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2016, 05:06:04 am »
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Quote
Name: Coal Miner
Type: Action
Cost: 6

Name a type.
Reveal the top 3 cards of your deck and put the revealed cards of the named type into your hand. Discard the rest.
If you named ...
Action card, +1 Action
Treasure card, + 1 Coin           
Victory card, +1 Card per revealed Victory card, +1 VP per revealed Victory card

I don't like the debt cost for this card. It seems viable in a 3(Silver)/4(Coal Miner) split in some kingdoms. Since 3 of the 4 debt only costed cards in the game are card gain(Engineer) or needs setup (City Quarter/Royal Blacksmith), and Overlord costs 8 debt with is much more of a commitment. Why not just turn this card into normal 5 or 6 costed card or rework it into a 8 debt costed card.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2016, 05:10:37 am by loneXolf »
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tristan

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Re: Ironwork-ish drawer
« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2016, 05:29:47 am »
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Quote
Name: Coal Miner
Type: Action
Cost: 6

Name a type.
Reveal the top 3 cards of your deck and put the revealed cards of the named type into your hand. Discard the rest.
If you named ...
Action card, +1 Action
Treasure card, + 1 Coin           
Victory card, +1 Card per revealed Victory card, +1 VP per revealed Victory card

I don't like the debt cost for this card. It seems viable in a 3(Silver)/4(Coal Miner) split in some kingdoms. Since 3 of the 4 debt only costed cards in the game are card gain(Engineer) or needs setup (City Quarter/Royal Blacksmith), and Overlord costs 8 debt with is much more of a commitment. Why not just turn this card into normal 5 or 6 costed card or rework it into a 8 debt costed card.
If you waste an opening move on this you will have a card which is most likely a bit weaker than a Smithy (you will choose the Treasure option and thus most likely get 2 Cards and one coin out of it). Safe to say that this would be a huge blunder so it is unproblematic to use Debt cost for Coal Miner (just because official cards only feature two different Debt costs doesn't mean that fan cards have to do the same; all you gotta check is whether a card with a Debt price is too strong in the opening which is not the case here).

Of course I do consider to buff it such that it could become a 5 (it is certainly far too weak to ever be a 6).
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tristan

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Re: Ironwork-ish drawer
« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2016, 06:06:07 am »
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I am probably gonna use this version for playtesting. It includes LA's idea of choosing the type after revealing and gives you the choice between discarding and topdecking any number of the other cards. This should especially help the Victory (topdeck Treasures you immediately draw) and Treasure (topdeck Actions for the next turn) options which I considered to be too weak so far.


Name: Coal Miner
Type: Action
Cost:

Reveal the top 3 cards of your deck, name a type and put the revealed cards of this type into your hand. Put any number of the other revealed cards onto your deck and discard the rest.
If you named ...
Action card, +1 Action
Treasure card, +           
Victory card, +1 Card per revealed Victory card, +1 per revealed Victory card
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loneXolf

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Re: Ironwork-ish drawer
« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2016, 06:48:48 am »
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Quote
(just because official cards only feature two different Debt costs doesn't mean that fan cards have to do the same; all you gotta check is whether a card with a Debt price is too strong in the opening which is not the case here)

I agree with you but cards that cost debt seem much harder to balance.
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luser

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Re: Ironwork-ish drawer
« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2016, 07:18:04 am »
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Weakening vp condition isn't necessary. You shouldn't care that much about combos as they are relatively rare and using coal miner for vp isn't even thing.  It doesn't work without trashing and with trashing lost arts terminal draw will piledive provinces before alt-vp could catch-up. Also with +action its comparable to groundskeeper that buys/trashes estate each turn which costs 5.  it doesn't scout as you discard rest of cards.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2016, 07:21:39 am by luser »
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navical

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Re: Ironwork-ish drawer
« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2016, 09:41:56 am »
+1

Quote
Name: Coal Miner
Type: Action
Cost: 6

Name a type.
Reveal the top 3 cards of your deck and put the revealed cards of the named type into your hand. Discard the rest.
If you named ...
Action card, +1 Action
Treasure card, + 1 Coin           
Victory card, +1 Card per revealed Victory card, +1 VP per revealed Victory card

I don't like the debt cost for this card. It seems viable in a 3(Silver)/4(Coal Miner) split in some kingdoms. Since 3 of the 4 debt only costed cards in the game are card gain(Engineer) or needs setup (City Quarter/Royal Blacksmith), and Overlord costs 8 debt with is much more of a commitment. Why not just turn this card into normal 5 or 6 costed card or rework it into a 8 debt costed card.
If you waste an opening move on this you will have a card which is most likely a bit weaker than a Smithy (you will choose the Treasure option and thus most likely get 2 Cards and one coin out of it). Safe to say that this would be a huge blunder so it is unproblematic to use Debt cost for Coal Miner (just because official cards only feature two different Debt costs doesn't mean that fan cards have to do the same; all you gotta check is whether a card with a Debt price is too strong in the opening which is not the case here).

Of course I do consider to buff it such that it could become a 5 (it is certainly far too weak to ever be a 6).

If you open Coal Miner / Silver then your turn 3/4 Coal Miner play will have results exactly identical to +3 Cards +$1. Whether you discard any non-Treasures when you play Coal Miner or in cleanup doesn't make any difference, they're not doing anything for you either way.
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tristan

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Re: Ironwork-ish drawer
« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2016, 03:23:33 pm »
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Quote
Name: Coal Miner
Type: Action
Cost: 6

Name a type.
Reveal the top 3 cards of your deck and put the revealed cards of the named type into your hand. Discard the rest.
If you named ...
Action card, +1 Action
Treasure card, + 1 Coin           
Victory card, +1 Card per revealed Victory card, +1 VP per revealed Victory card

I don't like the debt cost for this card. It seems viable in a 3(Silver)/4(Coal Miner) split in some kingdoms. Since 3 of the 4 debt only costed cards in the game are card gain(Engineer) or needs setup (City Quarter/Royal Blacksmith), and Overlord costs 8 debt with is much more of a commitment. Why not just turn this card into normal 5 or 6 costed card or rework it into a 8 debt costed card.
If you waste an opening move on this you will have a card which is most likely a bit weaker than a Smithy (you will choose the Treasure option and thus most likely get 2 Cards and one coin out of it). Safe to say that this would be a huge blunder so it is unproblematic to use Debt cost for Coal Miner (just because official cards only feature two different Debt costs doesn't mean that fan cards have to do the same; all you gotta check is whether a card with a Debt price is too strong in the opening which is not the case here).

Of course I do consider to buff it such that it could become a 5 (it is certainly far too weak to ever be a 6).

If you open Coal Miner / Silver then your turn 3/4 Coal Miner play will have results exactly identical to +3 Cards +$1.
No, it depends on whether the revealed cards are all Treasures. Ignoring turn 4/5 complexity issues (depends on what you bought in turns 3/4) you will have 8 Treasures and 3 Shelters/Victory cards so chances to draw 3 Treasures are 0.34 and chances to draw 2 Treasures are 0.51.
As I already said, the most likely scenario is "+2 Cards +$1" and this is similar in strength to a Smithy.

Whether you discard any non-Treasures when you play Coal Miner or in cleanup doesn't make any difference, they're not doing anything for you either way.
Huh? It makes a huge difference whether you topdeck or discard the revealed Estates. I don't think you understand how the card is working.
Actually the early Estate sifting is the only good thing about getting Coal Miner early.
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Accatitippi

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Re: Ironwork-ish drawer
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2016, 06:20:40 pm »
+3

navical is right here.
You're not just drawing two cards and getting a coin, you're also discarding the Estate, which in this example is just as good as drawing it.
Smithy would have drawn it, sure, but at the end the result is the same: two good cards from the deck to your hand, and an Estate from the deck to the discard.
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tristan

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Re: Ironwork-ish drawer
« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2016, 02:56:13 am »
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Ah, now I understand his point.
This is totally right although the notion that "+3 Cards, +1$" is stronger than 5 is still dubious and most of the times you don't play with merely Treasures or Actions but with a mixture of both.
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