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Author Topic: Beware Conventional Wisdom  (Read 2476 times)

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Jacob marley

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Beware Conventional Wisdom
« on: November 01, 2016, 01:54:19 pm »
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Seaway, Moat, Dungeon, Philosopher's Stone, Gardens, Magpie, Navigator, Butcher, Jester, Merchant Ship, Swamp Hag
So, conventional wisdom says that if you are going for alt VP and the other player is going province, don't get provinces yourself.  In this game:  http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20161029/log.0.1477753857006.txt

I grab a couple of early provinces, and my opponent goes for Gardens.  We both have our +buy on Dungeon.  Turn 13, with 8 and 2 buys, he buys double gardens instead of province.  Problem is, two piles are already empty, and there is only one garden left after his turn, with me in the lead.  It is easy, therefore, for me to grab the last garden (I already had 2) and win.  In this case, if he buys Province/Copper, I cannot triple garden to end the game, and he will get his gardens to 4, which closes the gap and gives him a chance.  Buying two gardens on his last turn guarantees me a win.
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Chris is me

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Re: Beware Conventional Wisdom
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2016, 02:35:48 pm »
+2

I don't think this is a good engine Gardens board by any means but I genuinely think Navigator / Gardens might be better than Dungeon / Gardens if you're going to just rush it. The cycling is faster, the $2 is really important, and the nonterminal nature of Dungeon just largely doesn't matter. You can't slog Gardens well here because it's too easy to empty 3 piles.

That said, I think it's pretty clear that a deck that plays a bunch of Magpies along with some Dungeon, Butcher, etc. is the way to go here. If you play the mirror, Swamp Hag and / or Jester for junking; otherwise just try to maintain pile control and not leave an opening for the Gardens player.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2016, 03:28:28 pm by Chris is me »
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McGarnacle

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Re: Beware Conventional Wisdom
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2016, 03:13:37 pm »
0

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Limetime

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Re: Beware Conventional Wisdom
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2016, 03:43:55 pm »
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If you can seaway magpie you can have a very potent gardens and/or phil stone deck. Seawaying the dungeons is pretty good too.
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Jacob marley

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Re: Beware Conventional Wisdom
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2016, 04:42:07 pm »
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Neither of us could do seaway-Magpie, because Magpie had already piled out when we bought Seaway, but if he had done so, he could maybe have powered up his gardens enough to win.  I didn't set out to rush gardens, but when I built a 2 Province lead, and he started in on them, it was obvious that the play was to pile them quickly.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2016, 04:45:13 pm by Jacob marley »
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TrojH

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Re: Beware Conventional Wisdom
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2016, 12:04:00 am »
+1

Neither of us could do seaway-Magpie, because Magpie had already piled out when we bought Seaway

I think you should've done Seaway-Magpie at turn 3, instead of buying a Swamp Hag. The Swamp Hag can wait.
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Seprix

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Re: Beware Conventional Wisdom
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2016, 01:10:52 am »
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If you can seaway magpie you can have a very potent gardens and/or phil stone deck. Seawaying the dungeons is pretty good too.

Philstone and draw do not mix. This board is probably just a hybrid of Magpies and Butcher BM. Swamp Hag is pretty inconsequential and I see nothing else remotely fast here.
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luser

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Re: Beware Conventional Wisdom
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2016, 08:02:27 am »
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Alt-vp rule applies to vineyard/duke/feodum slogs where you want to prolong game as much as possible, not gardens rushes where you could pick province to get point lead if you have opportunity.

Here you both make mistake of picking dungeon, it often was worse than silver. Opening is definitely magpie/silver as you want to hit 5 soon and often.

Here seaway-magpie is obvious, swamp hag, gold, jester, butcher. Both of you could get it instead of buying these. However correct was get butcher on first 5, then seaway could wait a bit as you could save coin tokens and get it turn before magpies are out. Depending on magpie pile get second butcher before/after seaway.

Gardens rush here doesn't seem that strong if both players don't empty dungeons. However gardens are relevant as they will likely be 4 point at end. With magpies you want extra copper to improve magpie hit rate.
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SettingFraming

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Re: Beware Conventional Wisdom
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2016, 10:51:11 am »
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If you're going gardens you just have to seaway magpies or else it's just not even close to competitive. The BM here is incredibly strong (for BM, that is), and looks like the best thing on the board regardless. Definitely magpies and butcher, maybe a dungeon, and an early jester could be good but it's probably not as good as swamp hag (if opponent not going gardens) or just more butchers.
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Re: Beware Conventional Wisdom
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2016, 11:52:40 am »
+3

So, conventional wisdom says that if you are going for alt VP and the other player is going province, don't get provinces yourself.

That's not what the conventional wisdom says. The conventional wisdom says that if your opponent wants to end the game earlier than you do, don't help him end the game. That you should not get Provinces against a Province opponent when you're going alt-VP was, IIRC, just something that came up in an actual game where someone was going for an engine against a big money opponent, and thusly, only applied to that particular game.
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