Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1]

Author Topic: Multiply modified gain  (Read 4951 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

payprplayn

  • Pawn
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1
  • Respect: +2
    • View Profile
Multiply modified gain
« on: October 27, 2016, 01:54:43 am »
+2

So, I'm sure someone's asked this before, but I couldn't find it.  What happens if you gain a card to two different non-standard locations, e. g. if you gain a Villa with the ability on Artificer? Is this considered "two abilities triggering at the same time", so you get to choose where it goes? If so, that would imply that the Villa's ability happens while it's in your deck, which is strange.
Logged

tailred

  • Golem
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 195
  • Shuffle iT Username: ceviri
  • Respect: +368
    • View Profile
Re: Multiply modified gain
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2016, 04:10:04 am »
0

I'm deferring to my memory of the nomad camp ruling, since that should work the same. You will get the choice if you're trying to gain to 2 separate locations, since it happens simultaneously. The card goes straight to the final destination, without 'visiting' the other. The exception is watchtower, where the gain fully resolves before watchtower moves it.

Yea, it's pretty weird with villa but dominion's full of weird stuff, like processed hirelings working forever from the trash.
Logged

Jeebus

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2515
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +1635
    • View Profile
Re: Multiply modified gain
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2016, 10:03:10 am »
+1

I'm deferring to my memory of the nomad camp ruling, since that should work the same. You will get the choice if you're trying to gain to 2 separate locations, since it happens simultaneously. The card goes straight to the final destination, without 'visiting' the other.

This is wrong. Villa happens after gaining, like Watchtower and Royal Seal. So Artificer places it onto your deck, then you can potentially choose between resolving Villa, Watchtower and Royal Seal first.

Also, the Nomad Camp ruling has actually been changed. Transmogrifying a Nomad Camp will put it in your hand, you don't get to choose.

werothegreat

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8172
  • Shuffle iT Username: werothegreat
  • Let me tell you a secret...
  • Respect: +9625
    • View Profile
Re: Multiply modified gain
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2016, 02:38:55 pm »
0

When/where was the Nomad Camp ruling changed?
Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

werothegreat

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8172
  • Shuffle iT Username: werothegreat
  • Let me tell you a secret...
  • Respect: +9625
    • View Profile
Re: Multiply modified gain
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2016, 11:32:58 pm »
0

I'm deferring to my memory of the nomad camp ruling, since that should work the same. You will get the choice if you're trying to gain to 2 separate locations, since it happens simultaneously. The card goes straight to the final destination, without 'visiting' the other.

This is wrong. Villa happens after gaining, like Watchtower and Royal Seal. So Artificer places it onto your deck, then you can potentially choose between resolving Villa, Watchtower and Royal Seal first.

Also, the Nomad Camp ruling has actually been changed. Transmogrifying a Nomad Camp will put it in your hand, you don't get to choose.

No, but seriously, I'm trying to find where this ruling was changed, and I'm not seeing anything.
Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

Jeebus

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2515
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +1635
    • View Profile
Re: Multiply modified gain
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2016, 08:38:27 am »
0

No, but seriously, I'm trying to find where this ruling was changed, and I'm not seeing anything.

Sorry, I meant to reply to your previous post, but forgot. I don't know where the ruling is either, but I'll search the forum and see if I can find it.

Jeebus

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2515
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +1635
    • View Profile

werothegreat

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8172
  • Shuffle iT Username: werothegreat
  • Let me tell you a secret...
  • Respect: +9625
    • View Profile
Re: Multiply modified gain
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2016, 11:56:37 am »
0

Got it: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=15541.msg603985#msg603985

Okay.  So Nomad Camp is still when-would-gain, but gain-to-different-location effects are also when-would-gain, and override that.  Villa has the same wording as Nomad Camp, so should operate the same way.

So a few things from this:
-Transmogrifying into a Nomad Camp puts it into your hand.
-Artificing a Villa puts it on top of your deck.
-Replace happens after the gain, so the Villa will first visit your hand, then go on top of your deck. (not that this really matters)
-This also means that Replace can't normally topdeck Cache, Border Village or Death Cart.
Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

Jeebus

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2515
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +1635
    • View Profile
Re: Multiply modified gain
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2016, 12:18:36 pm »
0

Villa has the same wording as Nomad Camp, so should operate the same way.
No, as I said above, Villa happens after gain. It's in the thread about Villa. Only Nomad Camp's text is inaccurate. Villa is like Royal Seal and Watchtower.

-Stef-

  • 2012 & 2016 DS Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1574
  • Respect: +4419
    • View Profile
Re: Multiply modified gain
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2016, 12:31:00 pm »
0

Okay.  So Nomad Camp is still when-would-gain, but gain-to-different-location effects are also when-would-gain, and override that.  Villa has the same wording as Nomad Camp, so should operate the same way.
No, Nomad camp is not when-would-gain, at least that's not how I implemented it.

Dominion cards have a property, their default gain location. For all Dominion cards this is your discard pile, except for Nomad Camp who has it set to the top of your drawpile. Most gain effects just use that default location, some overwrite it.
Logged
Join the Dominion League!

werothegreat

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8172
  • Shuffle iT Username: werothegreat
  • Let me tell you a secret...
  • Respect: +9625
    • View Profile
Re: Multiply modified gain
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2016, 01:52:32 pm »
0

Okay.  So Nomad Camp is still when-would-gain, but gain-to-different-location effects are also when-would-gain, and override that.  Villa has the same wording as Nomad Camp, so should operate the same way.
No, Nomad camp is not when-would-gain, at least that's not how I implemented it.

Dominion cards have a property, their default gain location. For all Dominion cards this is your discard pile, except for Nomad Camp who has it set to the top of your drawpile. Most gain effects just use that default location, some overwrite it.

Huh.  Will Nomad Camp be reworded when Hinterlands is updated, then?  Something like "This card is gained to your deck"?  Because as it stands, Nomad Camp and Villa have the exact same wording, and the only thing differentiating them is the fact that Nomad Camp's FAQ says they are.

EDIT: Does the Silver from Rocks visit?  My guess is it does, since there is a semicolon between the "when you gain, gain" and the moving instructions.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2016, 01:59:18 pm by werothegreat »
Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

Donald X.

  • Board Moderator
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6357
  • Respect: +25672
    • View Profile
Re: Multiply modified gain
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2016, 02:16:03 pm »
0

Huh.  Will Nomad Camp be reworded when Hinterlands is updated, then?  Something like "This card is gained to your deck"?  Because as it stands, Nomad Camp and Villa have the exact same wording, and the only thing differentiating them is the fact that Nomad Camp's FAQ says they are.
I understand you wanting to know this kind of thing in advance, but it really seems best to me to discourage such questions by not answering them. All cards had their wordings reconsidered for new printings and one day you will know how they ended up.

EDIT: Does the Silver from Rocks visit?  My guess is it does, since there is a semicolon between the "when you gain, gain" and the moving instructions.
The Silver doesn't visit.
Logged

Dominionaer

  • Golem
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 178
  • Respect: +66
    • View Profile
Re: Multiply modified gain
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2016, 08:30:37 am »
0

I understand, that Watchtower, Royal Seal and Travelling Fair do their transfer effect after a card is gained, because they did not gain the card by themself. Since Villa is not gained by itself, the
...; the other ways to affect a gained card's destination, that don't actually gain the card, happen after it visits the discard pile or wherever, ...
applies also. But why should that be not true for Nomad Camp also?

Does Summon fall in the category of No Visiting Rule : Exceptions", because the effect is broken in two sentences? For me (non native English) "Set it aside" has the meaning of "setting it aside" (comparable to "putting it wherever"), but is used because for the following condition. But the ruling could be, "Gain ..." is one instruction and "Set it aside" is another (indepent) instruction. But shouldn't Transmogrify then be also an exception, because the "and" does divide two instructions?

But why should Replace be an exception? For me it seems to be comparable with Rocks, and because the Silver from Rocks does not visit, so should not an Action or Treasure from Replace.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2016, 08:38:56 am by Dominionaer »
Logged

Donald X.

  • Board Moderator
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6357
  • Respect: +25672
    • View Profile
Re: Multiply modified gain
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2016, 09:59:59 am »
0

I understand, that Watchtower, Royal Seal and Travelling Fair do their transfer effect after a card is gained, because they did not gain the card by themself. Since Villa is not gained by itself, the
...; the other ways to affect a gained card's destination, that don't actually gain the card, happen after it visits the discard pile or wherever, ...
applies also. But why should that be not true for Nomad Camp also?

Does Summon fall in the category of No Visiting Rule : Exceptions", because the effect is broken in two sentences? For me (non native English) "Set it aside" has the meaning of "setting it aside" (comparable to "putting it wherever"), but is used because for the following condition. But the ruling could be, "Gain ..." is one instruction and "Set it aside" is another (indepent) instruction. But shouldn't Transmogrify then be also an exception, because the "and" does divide two instructions?

But why should Replace be an exception? For me it seems to be comparable with Rocks, and because the Silver from Rocks does not visit, so should not an Action or Treasure from Replace.
I try to make the card texts and their interactions as simple as possible, as intuitive as possible, as explicable as possible, as consistent as possible. Each individual may find I've failed them in whatever ways. Apparently I have failed you extra. I don't think any amount of "well the Hinterlands rulebook says" will make this any clearer or more satisfying.
Logged

Jeebus

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2515
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +1635
    • View Profile
Re: Multiply modified gain
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2016, 10:22:02 am »
0

I definitely think there's room for improvement in card texts with this mechanic. Especially Transmogrify seems to be saying the opposite. I really like the new phrasings "gain it to your hand" and "gain it onto your deck". This makes it really clear, and should take care of most confusion whenever all cards get new wordings.

Transmogrify could be: "At the start of your turn, you may call this, to trash a card from your hand and gain a card to your hand costing up to $1 more than it."

Rocks could be: "When you gain or trash this, gain a Silver; if it is your Buy phase, gain the Silver onto your deck, otherwise gain it to your hand."

Hmm, but Empires is supposed to already have the new and improved wordings, so maybe Rocks will never be changed...?

Nomad Camp could be: "When you gain this, gain it onto your deck." (This would still not be 100% accurate, but this is probably impossible while still being understandable to most players. But it would make it distinct from the wordings on Watchtower, Royal Seal, Villa and Travelling Fair in a clear way, I think.)
Even more accurate: "When you gain this, gain it onto your deck instead of your discard pile." This has the added benefit of implying that it will be overridden by Transmogrify and Artisan.

werothegreat

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8172
  • Shuffle iT Username: werothegreat
  • Let me tell you a secret...
  • Respect: +9625
    • View Profile
Re: Multiply modified gain
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2016, 11:12:42 am »
0

Since Villa visits, does that mean Summon loses track of it?

But why should Replace be an exception? For me it seems to be comparable with Rocks, and because the Silver from Rocks does not visit, so should not an Action or Treasure from Replace.

Rocks has a semicolon, Replace has a period.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2016, 11:14:40 am by werothegreat »
Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

singletee

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 915
  • Shuffle iT Username: singletee
  • Gold, Silver, Copper, Let's Jam!
  • Respect: +1606
    • View Profile
Re: Multiply modified gain
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2016, 11:19:48 am »
0

Since Villa visits, does that mean Summon loses track of it?

Yes. I asked Donald this very question a while ago:

Nomad Camp specifically makes its wording an exception in the Hinterlands rulebook; Villa does not. So Villa goes to your discard pile and then moves to your hand, thus Summon loses track.
Pages: [1]
 

Page created in 0.14 seconds with 21 queries.