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Author Topic: Chris's half-assed card concepts thread  (Read 5513 times)

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Chris is me

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Re: Chris's half-assed card concepts thread
« Reply #25 on: November 24, 2016, 09:34:01 pm »
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I think one reason that Poacher discards is so that it doesn't cause strictly better/worse problems, and not necessarily that it would be too strong without it.

This is definitely not a reason it costs less - I think Donald has said as much, the card needed to be balanced at cost in case the penalty never triggers, and 1 1 1 is balanced at 4. It's not a penalty added to a card concept to make it fair; the penalty was the concept and they needed a vanilla effect.

Being strictly better in some small corner case isn't the end of the world - yes one Investigate is better than one lab, but so is one Hunting Party (more or less).
« Last Edit: November 24, 2016, 09:35:21 pm by Chris is me »
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tristan

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Re: Chris's half-assed card concepts thread
« Reply #26 on: November 25, 2016, 02:32:52 am »
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I think one reason that Poacher discards is so that it doesn't cause strictly better/worse problems, and not necessarily that it would be too strong without it.

It's clearly worst than a normal peddler in most kingdoms. Once one supply pile is empty it's pretty much a Oasis(costs 3) even if you want Poacher to be Oasis for some card combo, it's hard to control since you need one supply pile gone and it's even worst when 2 supply piles are gone.
Poacher is not strictly worse than a hypothetical Peddler that costs 4. On average it is a tad weaker... but when one pile is empty folks often start to green anyway so the discarding is not much of a liability.

It's not strictly worse in the literal sense, but you need a pretty specific combo to make it not worse.
No. As I said,  when one pile is empty greening often starts (in Kingdoms in which it doesn`t folks strive for powerful cards so it doesn`t matter much when your Poachers degenerate into Oaseses) so you can discard Victory cards with Poacher. The difference between Poacher and Peddler for 4 is quite tiny.
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loneXolf

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Re: Chris's half-assed card concepts thread
« Reply #27 on: November 25, 2016, 03:01:20 am »
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I think one reason that Poacher discards is so that it doesn't cause strictly better/worse problems, and not necessarily that it would be too strong without it.

It's clearly worst than a normal peddler in most kingdoms. Once one supply pile is empty it's pretty much a Oasis(costs 3) even if you want Poacher to be Oasis for some card combo, it's hard to control since you need one supply pile gone and it's even worst when 2 supply piles are gone.
Poacher is not strictly worse than a hypothetical Peddler that costs 4. On average it is a tad weaker... but when one pile is empty folks often start to green anyway so the discarding is not much of a liability.

It's not strictly worse in the literal sense, but you need a pretty specific combo to make it not worse.
No. As I said,  when one pile is empty greening often starts (in Kingdoms in which it doesn`t folks strive for powerful cards so it doesn`t matter much when your Poachers degenerate into Oaseses) so you can discard Victory cards with Poacher. The difference between Poacher and Peddler for 4 is quite tiny.

I think your comment is sorta true in most two player games, since in two player games kingdom piles empty way less often before the province pile does. And even when a kingdom pile empties it's usually around the end of the game. However, in 3 to 4 player games kingdom supply piles can empty much quicker.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2016, 03:03:55 am by loneXolf »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Chris's half-assed card concepts thread
« Reply #28 on: November 29, 2016, 04:50:05 pm »
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I think one reason that Poacher discards is so that it doesn't cause strictly better/worse problems, and not necessarily that it would be too strong without it.

It's clearly worst than a normal peddler in most kingdoms. Once one supply pile is empty it's pretty much a Oasis(costs 3) even if you want Poacher to be Oasis for some card combo, it's hard to control since you need one supply pile gone and it's even worst when 2 supply piles are gone.
Poacher is not strictly worse than a hypothetical Peddler that costs 4. On average it is a tad weaker... but when one pile is empty folks often start to green anyway so the discarding is not much of a liability.

It's not strictly worse in the literal sense, but you need a pretty specific combo to make it not worse.
No. As I said,  when one pile is empty greening often starts (in Kingdoms in which it doesn`t folks strive for powerful cards so it doesn`t matter much when your Poachers degenerate into Oaseses) so you can discard Victory cards with Poacher. The difference between Poacher and Peddler for 4 is quite tiny.

Everything you said is right except for the starting "no"... you didn't actually contradict or disagree with what I said. It's not contradictory for a card to be strictly worse than another card, while at the same time having the difference be "quite tiny". A treasure that gives you +$100 is only barely worse than a treasure that gives you +$101; and in 99.9% of the games the difference won't matter. But it's still true that one is worse than the other. Poacher is often just as good as Peddler, but sometimes it is worse. Only in extremely rare edge cases is it better. That makes it worse overall.
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tristan

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Re: Chris's half-assed card concepts thread
« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2016, 05:40:07 am »
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Poacher is often just as good as Peddler, but sometimes it is worse. Only in extremely rare edge cases is it better. That makes it worse overall.
"Extremly rare edge" is an exaggeration. Library and Tunnel directly gain from it significantly whereas if you already green or have junk in your deck discarding a card is neither beneficial nor advantageous.
So while I agree qualitatively, i.e. that Poacher is on average worse than a hypothetical Peddler at 4, I consider the strength difference to be very small.

The main reason is that once a pile is empty you usually either start greening or still build up a strong engine. In the former case you can discard Victory cards whereas in the latter case it is fairly insignificant whether you have a Peddler or an Oasis in your deck as you strive for more powerful stuff in your deck..
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Chris's half-assed card concepts thread
« Reply #30 on: November 30, 2016, 06:35:29 am »
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Poacher is often just as good as Peddler, but sometimes it is worse. Only in extremely rare edge cases is it better. That makes it worse overall.
"Extremly rare edge" is an exaggeration. Library and Tunnel directly gain from it significantly whereas if you already green or have junk in your deck discarding a card is neither beneficial nor advantageous.
So while I agree qualitatively, i.e. that Poacher is on average worse than a hypothetical Peddler at 4, I consider the strength difference to be very small.

The main reason is that once a pile is empty you usually either start greening or still build up a strong engine. In the former case you can discard Victory cards whereas in the latter case it is fairly insignificant whether you have a Peddler or an Oasis in your deck as you strive for more powerful stuff in your deck..
Library doesn't gain from it all the time, you could discard a treasure then draw a victory. I'd say poacher is significantly worse usually, and occasionally barely worse or better.
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Chris is me

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Re: Chris's half-assed card concepts thread
« Reply #31 on: November 30, 2016, 07:47:22 am »
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Can we argue about poacher on the inevitable Let's Discuss thread that will probably start within five days and not here, thanks
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Re: Chris's half-assed card concepts thread
« Reply #32 on: November 30, 2016, 09:41:34 am »
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Poacher is often just as good as Peddler, but sometimes it is worse. Only in extremely rare edge cases is it better. That makes it worse overall.
"Extremly rare edge" is an exaggeration. Library and Tunnel directly gain from it significantly whereas if you already green or have junk in your deck discarding a card is neither beneficial nor advantageous.
So while I agree qualitatively, i.e. that Poacher is on average worse than a hypothetical Peddler at 4, I consider the strength difference to be very small.

The main reason is that once a pile is empty you usually either start greening or still build up a strong engine. In the former case you can discard Victory cards whereas in the latter case it is fairly insignificant whether you have a Peddler or an Oasis in your deck as you strive for more powerful stuff in your deck..
It's a extremely rare edge case because it only appears in1-3% of games with poacher and isn't even that good when it appears. The benefit of discarding one card in a library engine is fairly marginal and other cards do it better.
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