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Author Topic: Kru5h's card ideas  (Read 23236 times)

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Kudasai

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Re: Kru5h's card ideas
« Reply #325 on: August 09, 2018, 06:44:49 pm »
0

The "Game End" seems to be three phases:
(1) Start of Game End.
(2) Take all cards (minus cards on mats if not specified to take).
(3) Scoring.

Since your current version is set aside and will get pulled at phase (2), should you have to specify the condition as being "At the start of Game End" or "At the start of the end of the game"?

I don't think this is correct. I don't think cards are "pulled"; Distant Lands shows us that cards remember where they were when the game ended, and there seems to be a general rule (written or not) that all cards that are yours count as part of your deck for the purposes of Gardens, etc. The fact Island says "returned to your deck" really has no rules meaning at all; given that cards like Haven don't have this same wording, but still work exactly the same.

It's a bit of an unknown rule, but cards on mats do not automatically go into your deck at the end of the game. They are still your cards, but for some reason they stay on the mat. Distant Lands is a good case of this. It's on your mat at the end of the game and checks there for 4VP. If it was automatically pulled it would be worth 0VP. Mostly a moot point though.

Really what I'm arguing is that set aside cards (like Judge) definitely get pulled and when the game ends where will Judge be? Maybe still set aside? Maybe pulled? As there is no precident for this I guess it's up to Kru5h, but I think treating the End Game as a phase like Clean-up would go a long way in clearing up any future misunderstanding.

*EDIT* I see your point though and am in no way disagreeing with it. It's a weird, sometimes seemingly incomplete part of the game. I guess it only ever matters if something is expected to be somewhere (i.e. on your Tavern mat, or set aside) that it matters.

*EDIT_02* Here is the actual text from the manual. "Take all of your cards - from your hand, deck, discard pile, play area, and even set aside cards - and sort them for putting them back in their piles. Count up your points." This is a bit off topic, but if a Victory card somehow got onto your Tavern mat and didn't check on itself to be there, would the points still be counted?
« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 07:31:18 pm by Kudasai »
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kru5h

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Re: Kru5h's card ideas
« Reply #326 on: August 09, 2018, 07:43:44 pm »
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I thought the precedent was that "When" happens before anything else happens.

"When another player plays an attack card" happens before the attack.

"When you trash this" happens before you trash it.

silvern

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Re: Kru5h's card ideas
« Reply #327 on: August 09, 2018, 09:23:44 pm »
+1

I thought the precedent was that "When" happens before anything else happens.

"When another player plays an attack card" happens before the attack.

"When you trash this" happens before you trash it.

I don't think this reading would work with, e.g., fortress and tomb.
Fortunately, Dominion does have a phrasing for "before" things--"when you would....", for example, on Trader.
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kru5h

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Re: Kru5h's card ideas
« Reply #328 on: August 09, 2018, 10:18:44 pm »
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If they are really not supposed to stack, cards make even less sense. I suggest a "Once per game" event.

Quote
Process,Event, 6
Once per game: Take a Process Token.
---
When the game ends, add the Courthouse pile to the supply and each player with a Process Token takes an extra turn.

It's just so, so much cleaner.

Instead of a token, it would be even cleaner to make it a State.

Quote
Process, Event,
Once per game: Take Objection.

Quote
Objection, State
When the game would end, add the Courthouse pile to the Supply and each player with Objection instead takes an extra turn, continuing turn order.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 10:20:28 pm by kru5h »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Kru5h's card ideas
« Reply #329 on: August 10, 2018, 01:25:33 am »
0

I thought the precedent was that "When" happens before anything else happens.

"When another player plays an attack card" happens before the attack.

"When you trash this" happens before you trash it.

No, "when" happens after the event. Fortress is in the trash pile at the time that you return it to your hand. Cards like Moat have a "first", which changes that rule. So "when x happens, do y"... x has already happened before you do y. "When x happens, first do y"... you do y when x has started to happen, but hasn't finished happening yet.

*Edit* Inn is a simple example of how we know this. Inn's when-gain has Inn already in the discard pile when you look through it.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2018, 01:30:50 am by GendoIkari »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Kru5h's card ideas
« Reply #330 on: August 10, 2018, 01:29:19 am »
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*EDIT_02* Here is the actual text from the manual. "Take all of your cards - from your hand, deck, discard pile, play area, and even set aside cards - and sort them for putting them back in their piles. Count up your points." This is a bit off topic, but if a Victory card somehow got onto your Tavern mat and didn't check on itself to be there, would the points still be counted?

I don't think that text is meant to exclude the Tavern Mat. Distant Lands can still score 4[$vp] because it only cares if it is on your mat "at the end of the game". Not "when counting up points. Also, it's not clear wording anyway, it just says "take all of your cards", without a definition of what it means to "take" them. The point clearly seems to be to gather them up so that you can count all of them as your score, but you have to make a logical assumption.
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kru5h

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Re: Kru5h's card ideas
« Reply #331 on: August 10, 2018, 09:06:49 pm »
0

Quote
Flank Action - Reaction,
+2 Cards
---
When you play an Attack card, you may first play this from your hand. If you do, each other player is unaffected by the Attack.

An anti-Moat that turns itself into a Lab. You're trading the attack for basically +1 Action. Sometimes your attacks do nothing anyway, so this is a way to capitalize on that.

Edit: Probably too strong with Minion or Goons.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2018, 10:30:24 pm by kru5h »
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faust

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Re: Kru5h's card ideas
« Reply #332 on: August 11, 2018, 06:32:37 am »
0

Quote
Flank Action - Reaction,
+2 Cards
---
When you play an Attack card, you may first play this from your hand. If you do, each other player is unaffected by the Attack.

An anti-Moat that turns itself into a Lab. You're trading the attack for basically +1 Action. Sometimes your attacks do nothing anyway, so this is a way to capitalize on that.

Edit: Probably too strong with Minion or Goons.
Timing is weird here. Trigger is "when you play an Attack", but you are instructed to play this first (i.e. before the other player has actually seen that Attack of yours), so there seems to be an accountability issue. Why not just

Quote
Flank Action,
+2 Cards
You may play an Attack from your hand.

While this is in play, when you play an Attack, each other player is unaffected by it.
Blocking all future Attack also makes it not as good with Minion/Goons.
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

Holunder9

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Re: Kru5h's card ideas
« Reply #333 on: August 11, 2018, 11:27:51 am »
0

Quote
Flank Action - Reaction,
+2 Cards
---
When you play an Attack card, you may first play this from your hand. If you do, each other player is unaffected by the Attack.

An anti-Moat that turns itself into a Lab. You're trading the attack for basically +1 Action. Sometimes your attacks do nothing anyway, so this is a way to capitalize on that.

Edit: Probably too strong with Minion or Goons.
Timing is weird here. Trigger is "when you play an Attack", but you are instructed to play this first (i.e. before the other player has actually seen that Attack of yours), so there seems to be an accountability issue.
There is no accountability issue as the actual timing is: play attack Attack card, Reaction window opens, Reactions can be played, Attack card is executed:

- A plays Mountebank. Reaction window opens. B reveals Moat. A executes Mountebank which, due to Moat, is now only a terminal Silver.
- A plays Mountebank. Reaction window opens. A reveals Flank and plays it. A executes Mountebank which, due to Flank, is now only a terminal Silver.
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Kudasai

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Re: Kru5h's card ideas
« Reply #334 on: August 11, 2018, 02:46:55 pm »
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*EDIT_02* Here is the actual text from the manual. "Take all of your cards - from your hand, deck, discard pile, play area, and even set aside cards - and sort them for putting them back in their piles. Count up your points." This is a bit off topic, but if a Victory card somehow got onto your Tavern mat and didn't check on itself to be there, would the points still be counted?

I don't think that text is meant to exclude the Tavern Mat. Distant Lands can still score 4[$vp] because it only cares if it is on your mat "at the end of the game". Not "when counting up points. Also, it's not clear wording anyway, it just says "take all of your cards", without a definition of what it means to "take" them. The point clearly seems to be to gather them up so that you can count all of them as your score, but you have to make a logical assumption.

Any guesses why Island and Native Village specifically say to "return them to your deck at the end of the game"? 1st edition cards had this on the card itself, but now it can only be found in the expanded rules. The inclusion of this text leads me to believe that cards on mats don't automatically get returned to your deck for counting points.

Anyways, it really has no bearing on Kru5h's Judge card or really most of the official cards. I'm more curious in terms of potential design space for future, fan-made cards. Thanks for your input!

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kru5h

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Re: Kru5h's card ideas
« Reply #335 on: August 11, 2018, 05:04:03 pm »
0

Quote
Tailor Action,
+1 Action
Choose two: Trash a card from your hand; Gain a Silver; or +1 Card.
The choices must be different.
Each other player may do the one you didn't choose.

Possible variant:

Quote
Tailor Action,
Choose two: Trash a card from your hand; Gain a card costing up to ; or +2 Card.
The choices must be different.
Each other player may do the one you didn't choose.

Edit: I think I'm gonna go with this variant.

Quote
Tailor Action,
Choose two: +2 Card; trash up to 2 cards from your hand; or gain a card costing up to .
The choices must be different.
Each other player may do the one you didn't choose.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2018, 08:51:10 pm by kru5h »
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Holunder9

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Re: Kru5h's card ideas
« Reply #336 on: August 12, 2018, 03:18:21 am »
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Quote
Tailor Action,
+1 Action
Choose two: Trash a card from your hand; Gain a Silver; or +1 Card.
The choices must be different.
Each other player may do the one you didn't choose.
Cantrip trashing, even with the drawing happening afterwards, seems far better than gaining a Silver.
Nonetheless, the opponents get an option and in a likely mirror a Silver isn't so bad; you need some economy after all.
So this could justify a price below $5.
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Asper

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Re: Kru5h's card ideas
« Reply #337 on: August 12, 2018, 03:47:20 pm »
+1

All cards you own count for your score and stuff like Gardens etc. . Cards like Island originally said to return them to be nice to the player, spelling out something they didn't need to spell out. But it's like this, by telling out something you didn't need to, if it's lacking, people will think, why isn't it spelled out here, apparently this is different? Lesson learned: Don't spell out things that go by themselves.

Kudasai

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Re: Kru5h's card ideas
« Reply #338 on: August 12, 2018, 05:11:10 pm »
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All cards you own count for your score and stuff like Gardens etc. . Cards like Island originally said to return them to be nice to the player, spelling out something they didn't need to spell out. But it's like this, by telling out something you didn't need to, if it's lacking, people will think, why isn't it spelled out here, apparently this is different? Lesson learned: Don't spell out things that go by themselves.

Yeah, I've come to terms with this. Gazbag made a good point about Inherited Ratcatchers still counting for points even if they are on your Tavern mat when the game ends. I guess that was the evidence I needed, being as the rules tell a different story.

I'm assuming it's just a product of the rules detailing the "End Game" (1st edition Base and Intrigue) came out long before the first mats (1st edition Seaside). The solution when Seaside came out was then, as you said, to tell the player to do something they probably already assumed they should do anyways, take their cards from their mat and score them. Now (2nd edition Seaside) even that has been put back into obscurity in the expanded rules. I just thought the 2nd edition rules would have cleared this up.

Anyways, it's not such a big deal. I just thought maybe I had stumbled onto some untapped design space and wanted to share. Sorry folks!
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GendoIkari

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Re: Kru5h's card ideas
« Reply #339 on: August 12, 2018, 10:28:10 pm »
0

All cards you own count for your score and stuff like Gardens etc. . Cards like Island originally said to return them to be nice to the player, spelling out something they didn't need to spell out. But it's like this, by telling out something you didn't need to, if it's lacking, people will think, why isn't it spelled out here, apparently this is different? Lesson learned: Don't spell out things that go by themselves.

Yeah, I've come to terms with this. Gazbag made a good point about Inherited Ratcatchers still counting for points even if they are on your Tavern mat when the game ends. I guess that was the evidence I needed, being as the rules tell a different story.

I'm assuming it's just a product of the rules detailing the "End Game" (1st edition Base and Intrigue) came out long before the first mats (1st edition Seaside). The solution when Seaside came out was then, as you said, to tell the player to do something they probably already assumed they should do anyways, take their cards from their mat and score them. Now (2nd edition Seaside) even that has been put back into obscurity in the expanded rules. I just thought the 2nd edition rules would have cleared this up.

Anyways, it's not such a big deal. I just thought maybe I had stumbled onto some untapped design space and wanted to share. Sorry folks!

I just noticed that second edition Island and Native village do away with the "return to the deck at the end of the game" clause, which makes me super happy. I've always been bothered by that text. Sure, if it hadn't been there to begin with, there would have been a few people asking "do cards on the Island Mat count for scoring?" But while the text prevented those particular questions, it lead to many other questions such as "do cards set aside by Haven count for scoring? Island says cards return the cards to the deck, but Haven doesn't."
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kru5h

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Re: Kru5h's card ideas
« Reply #340 on: August 13, 2018, 10:35:56 pm »
0

Quote
Tinker Action - Duration,
+2 Cards
+

At the start of your next turn, you may discard a card, to put this into your hand.

Mildly interesting. Could possible be abused. Not sure. Feels a bit strong, but feels too weak without the +. Feels balanced but awkward if it were +1 card, +.

Edit: I think I like this variant:

Quote
Tinker Action - Duration,
+3 Cards
At the start of your next turn, you may discard 2 cards, to put this into your hand.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2018, 02:21:32 am by kru5h »
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Holunder9

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Re: Kru5h's card ideas
« Reply #341 on: August 14, 2018, 02:44:01 am »
+1

Quote
Tinker Action - Duration,
+3 Cards
At the start of your next turn, you may discard 2 cards, to put this into your hand.
The most interesting and novel element is that it is the only $5 Smithy variant which is not a Smithy with a bonus but also with a liability: if you don't discard 2 cards Tinker is worse than Smithy due to the usual Duration card issues.
So it might be a bit too weak, at least as ordinary engine piece. In money it is probably pretty brilliant.
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kru5h

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Re: Kru5h's card ideas
« Reply #342 on: August 14, 2018, 03:01:51 am »
0

Quote
Tinker Action - Duration,
+3 Cards
At the start of your next turn, you may discard 2 cards, to put this into your hand.
The most interesting and novel element is that it is the only $5 Smithy variant which is not a Smithy with a bonus but also with a liability: if you don't discard 2 cards Tinker is worse than Smithy due to the usual Duration card issues.
So it might be a bit too weak, at least as ordinary engine piece. In money it is probably pretty brilliant.

Quote
Tinker Action - Duration - Reaction,
+3 Cards
At the start of your next turn, if this is still in play, you may discard 2 cards, to put this into your hand.
---
When you discard a card (including during Clean-up), you may discard this from play.

Edit: That doesn't work if you don't have any cards left in hand to discard during Clean-up. Second attempt:

Quote
Tinker Action - Duration,
+3 Cards
At the start of your next turn, if this is still in play, you may discard 2 cards, to put this into your hand.
---
At the start of Clean-up, you may discard this from play.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2018, 03:05:11 am by kru5h »
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kru5h

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Re: Kru5h's card ideas
« Reply #343 on: August 14, 2018, 08:47:58 pm »
0

What do you guys think about modifying Rabbits?



I would remove the + and make it always cost . This would make the card much simpler.

Edit: Posted side-by-side.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2018, 09:15:41 pm by kru5h »
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kru5h

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Re: Kru5h's card ideas
« Reply #344 on: August 16, 2018, 12:12:35 am »
0

I added images for ALL of my fan cards. Click page 1 of this thread to see the new art and wording.

Please let me know if you find any errors.

Asper

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Re: Kru5h's card ideas
« Reply #345 on: August 16, 2018, 04:10:25 am »
0

Rabbits is a cute name.

But the card (in its previous and current shape) seems like something that's not only pretty pointless to ever go for, it also seems just not fun. By solving all the issues it has, you get to Embargo, or Tax. I guess you could do an Event that costs 0 and puts buy Tokens (Buffers!!!) on supply piles, so you have to spend a buy more on those cards, or rather, take the token. But that also doesn't seem fun. Here's a version that doesn't assume Buy Tokens to be generally introduced:

Quote
Toll, Event, 0
Once per turn, choose one:
Put a Toll Token on an Action supply pile that doesn't have one;
Take a Toll Token from an Action supply pile;
+1 Buy, lose any number of Toll Tokens, +1Buy each.
(Cards with Toll Tokens on them cannot be bought)
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