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Author Topic: A game where Relic was actually good.  (Read 6213 times)

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McGarnacle

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A game where Relic was actually good.
« on: October 12, 2016, 07:54:32 am »
+1





Relic is so good here because nothing actually increases your handsize. Milita/Relic means the other player had two bad turns in a row, and Spy can discard their good cards, while synergizing with Spy. BoM can be nice, because there are a few handy cards it can be, but do you really want it over a Mystic or Relic? I want Spy/Mystic/Relic with one BoM and Militia, and ended up winning fairly comfortably.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2016, 07:57:59 am by McGarnacle »
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Re: A game where Relic was actually good.
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2016, 07:58:07 am »
+20

I hate to break this to you, but Relic is really good a lot of the time. You just aren't seeing how much it is hurting your opponent.
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McGarnacle

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Re: A game where Relic was actually good.
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2016, 08:02:35 am »
0

I hate to break this to you, but Relic is really good a lot of the time. You just aren't seeing how much it is hurting your opponent.

I build a lot of engines with big draw. I often loose, but having 1 less card rarely hurts that much, imho. Its about like Militia, but a down-to-three attack isn't exactly the end of the world. I like Relic, though, its pretty unique. Still, paying for the attack is a lot. Now of course, it can be drawn dead, but it isn't cumulative either.
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tristan

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Re: A game where Relic was actually good.
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2016, 08:03:13 am »
0

The notion that Relic is a) generally bad and b) only good in particular Kingdoms is preposterous. It is one of the most robust 5s.

Also, comparing a handsize attacks with the -1 Card token is like saying that the attack of Ghost Ship is the same as Militia. . Militia allows you to discard junk whereas Relic makes you draw one less card the next time you draw a card.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2016, 08:05:34 am by tristan »
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Aleimon Thimble

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Re: A game where Relic was actually good.
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2016, 08:03:49 am »
+2

Relic is definitely good, but I'm not so sure about Spy/Mystic here. Gear-BM + Relic might still win here in spite of Militia; with a weak Village, weak draw, and weak trashing I'm not at all sold on the engine here.

It's going to be a slow game, that's for sure. Might even be slow enough for PStone with Messenger support, but don't hold that thought against me, because it's likely wrong.

Kinda wanna try this one out. No Shelters/Colonies/Events, I assume?
« Last Edit: October 12, 2016, 08:07:07 am by Aleimon Thimble »
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McGarnacle

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Re: A game where Relic was actually good.
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2016, 08:09:33 am »
+1

The notion that Relic is a) generally bad and b) only good in particular Kingdoms is preposterous. It is one of the most robust 5s.

Also, comparing a handsize attacks with the -1 Card token is like saying that the attack of Ghost Ship is the same as Militia. . Militia allows you to discard junk whereas Relic makes you draw one less card the next time you draw a card.

I respectfully disagree. What exactly is your definition of "one of the most robust 5s"?
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tristan

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Re: A game where Relic was actually good.
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2016, 08:46:46 am »
0

Robust means decent average power level and low risk, i.e. the card is good in virtually all Kingdoms.
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Re: A game where Relic was actually good.
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2016, 08:55:02 am »
+2

Robust means decent average power level and low risk, i.e. the card is good in virtually all Kingdoms.

Relic suffers from opportunity cost though. It's good, but many $5's are better, even in BM. Of course, if you already have a couple of strong terminal $5's, you'll get a Relic instead, but you won't always get to that point, especially in engines. It's probably not worth getting over Gold in most cases.

I'd say Relic is fairly average for a $5. It's a good card, but so are most $5's.
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McGarnacle

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Re: A game where Relic was actually good.
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2016, 09:05:12 am »
0

Robust means decent average power level and low risk, i.e. the card is good in virtually all Kingdoms.

Relic suffers from opportunity cost though. It's good, but many $5's are better, even in BM. Of course, if you already have a couple of strong terminal $5's, you'll get a Relic instead, but you won't always get to that point, especially in engines. It's probably not worth getting over Gold in most cases.

I'd say Relic is fairly average for a $5. It's a good card, but so are most $5's.

This.
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Re: A game where Relic was actually good.
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2016, 09:20:01 am »
+3

Perhaps relic should be thought of in the following manner.

I purchase a relic at $5 and my opponent purchases a Laboratory.  His $5 Laboratory is reduced to a measly +1 Card / +1 Action.  This is arguably worse than a $2 Pearl Diver.  Said card could really only be fairly priced at $1 given all of the cantrips with benefits at $2 and Ruins at $0.  In contrast, a Relic is equal in purchasing power to a $3 Silver. 

You don't want to mass Relic as the attack doesn't stack, but I think the above clearly illustrates the competitive advantage that a consistent Relic provides.
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McGarnacle

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Re: A game where Relic was actually good.
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2016, 09:21:55 am »
0

Perhaps relic should be thought of in the following manner.

I purchase a relic at $5 and my opponent purchases a Laboratory.  His $5 Laboratory is reduced to a measly +1 Card / +1 Action.  This is arguably worse than a $2 Pearl Diver.  Said card could really only be fairly priced at $1 given all of the cantrips with benefits at $2 and Ruins at $0.  In contrast, a Relic is equal in purchasing power to a $3 Silver. 

You don't want to mass Relic as the attack doesn't stack, but I think the above clearly illustrates the competitive advantage that a consistent Relic provides.

True, but how many do you need to buy for it to be a "consistent Relic"? Is it worth it over a good ?
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werothegreat

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Re: A game where Relic was actually good.
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2016, 09:24:20 am »
+5

It also can't be overstated that it is a TREASURE-Attack.  You can always play it on your turn as long as it's in your hand.  No collisions, ever.
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shark_bait

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Re: A game where Relic was actually good.
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2016, 09:28:06 am »
0

Perhaps relic should be thought of in the following manner.

I purchase a relic at $5 and my opponent purchases a Laboratory.  His $5 Laboratory is reduced to a measly +1 Card / +1 Action.  This is arguably worse than a $2 Pearl Diver.  Said card could really only be fairly priced at $1 given all of the cantrips with benefits at $2 and Ruins at $0.  In contrast, a Relic is equal in purchasing power to a $3 Silver. 

You don't want to mass Relic as the attack doesn't stack, but I think the above clearly illustrates the competitive advantage that a consistent Relic provides.

True, but how many do you need to buy for it to be a "consistent Relic"? Is it worth it over a good ?

Just a few.  It's the kind of card that you definitely want to get but will almost never be a kingdom supply pile that empties.
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TheOthin

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Re: A game where Relic was actually good.
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2016, 09:32:03 am »
+1

Perhaps relic should be thought of in the following manner.

I purchase a relic at $5 and my opponent purchases a Laboratory.  His $5 Laboratory is reduced to a measly +1 Card / +1 Action.  This is arguably worse than a $2 Pearl Diver.  Said card could really only be fairly priced at $1 given all of the cantrips with benefits at $2 and Ruins at $0.  In contrast, a Relic is equal in purchasing power to a $3 Silver. 

You don't want to mass Relic as the attack doesn't stack, but I think the above clearly illustrates the competitive advantage that a consistent Relic provides.

True, but how many do you need to buy for it to be a "consistent Relic"? Is it worth it over a good ?

Depends on how often you draw your deck.
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Chris is me

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Re: A game where Relic was actually good.
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2016, 09:40:42 am »
0

If you think of Relic as an average card but Minion's attack as fairly powerful, you don't get the impact of Relic.

I think Relic should be bought and played on most boards, including and especially engine boards. Engine boards only need one, maybe two Relic!

But I mean obviously on this board it is pretty good. The engine is weak here, probably not really playable, so it's kind of a Gear / Militia BM, and the free attack is nice. You can open Gear / Milita and skip Silver, right?
« Last Edit: October 12, 2016, 09:41:47 am by Chris is me »
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allanfieldhouse

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Re: A game where Relic was actually good.
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2016, 10:51:28 am »
+1

Relic is definitely a great card to stick into most decks if you can fit in the buy. Even if it was a terminal silver action, I think it would be worth $5 (though clearly not as good as the actual version).

Really the attack can hit in two primary ways.
1. If the opponent doesn't draw cards on their turn, the attack is basically a non-cycling Minion attack (so slightly stronger than Minion attack?).
2. If the opponent does draw cards, it can really hurt their engine kicking off. Think of all the times that your Village drew your first Smithy for the turn. It can even muck up the middle of an engine turn. Say you play Village-Smithy from your starting hand, and you draw 3 Smithys instead of 3 and a Village. Basically if at any time the last card you drew was crucial for your engine, Relic would have killed that turn.

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Aleimon Thimble

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Re: A game where Relic was actually good.
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2016, 11:47:59 am »
+4

Tried various strategies against Lord Bottington with this board.

1. Gear-BM with Relic on $5 got me 4 Provinces in 13 turns before stalling. Had Bottington on points lockdown T20, before finally ending it T23, winning 60-19.
2. Spy/Mystic/Relic with one BoM and Militia, ignoring the other cards (your strategy if I understood correctly), got me 4 Provinces in 19 turns. One turn later, I won 36-25.
3. A full engine with Native Village, Gear, Messenger, Mint for trashing, the Spy/Mystic 'combo', Militia and Relic as attacks gets absolutely nowhere. All the components are laughably weak. Resigned on T23 because neither me nor Bottington got anywhere near emptying the Provinces.
4. Messenger/PStone-BM with Relic on $5 got me the win in 23 turns, after some Duchy dancing: 39-36. Not very good, but still better than the full engine. Wow.

Of course, Bottington is not exactly the best player ever, so maybe playing against a real opponent would be more accurate, but I'm fairly sure the strategy on this board is Gear-BM. Maybe adding a Militia is doable, not sure.

One thing I'll give you: Relic is awesome on this board. Whatever your strategy, you can't ignore it.
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allanfieldhouse

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Re: A game where Relic was actually good.
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2016, 02:54:56 pm »
0

Tried various strategies against Lord Bottington with this board.

1. Gear-BM with Relic on $5 got me 4 Provinces in 13 turns before stalling. Had Bottington on points lockdown T20, before finally ending it T23, winning 60-19.
etc.

It's hard to evaluate Relic's strength like this because from your perspective, it plays out identically to a silver. You really need to have the opponent use a constant strategy and compare their performance when you do/don't use relic. AKA, a job for a simulator.
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Re: A game where Relic was actually good.
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2016, 03:02:10 pm »
+3

Tried various strategies against Lord Bottington with this board.

1. Gear-BM with Relic on $5 got me 4 Provinces in 13 turns before stalling. Had Bottington on points lockdown T20, before finally ending it T23, winning 60-19.
etc.

It's hard to evaluate Relic's strength like this because from your perspective, it plays out identically to a silver. You really need to have the opponent use a constant strategy and compare their performance when you do/don't use relic. AKA, a job for a simulator.

Feature request: human vs programmable bot mode in Dominion 2017! Would be perfect for this situation.
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tristan

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Re: A game where Relic was actually good.
« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2016, 03:13:34 am »
0

Relic is good in virtually all Kingdoms. Most 5$ Treasures on the other hand vary in strength much more, depending on the particular Kingdom. Of course we all love our Counterfeit for trashing or our Horn of Plenty for gaining and so on ... but as shark_bait has pointed out, Relic is an Anti-Lab. A Treasure attack which nullifies one of the best 5s is obviously good. Lab's versatility is also the very reason Relic is nearly universal useful.
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Re: A game where Relic was actually good.
« Reply #20 on: October 13, 2016, 09:02:13 am »
+1

The relic hurts cards like ratcatcher and transmogrify that want a choice of targets. Relic also slows cycling and that can hurt cards like upgrade and junk dealer that want to transform a deck through a fast turnover (... before you add more good cards to the deck).
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Re: A game where Relic was actually good.
« Reply #21 on: October 13, 2016, 10:03:13 am »
+1

In other words, Relic is far less skippable than people think.
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Re: A game where Relic was actually good.
« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2017, 04:19:11 pm »
0

It also can't be overstated that it is a TREASURE-Attack.  You can always play it on your turn as long as it's in your hand.  No collisions, ever.

One reason I miss Thief :(
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