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Author Topic: Most complex first game possible  (Read 9574 times)

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Most complex first game possible
« on: October 10, 2016, 02:41:31 pm »
+2

Let's say I'm introducing the game to someone. What's the worst possible set of cards to use in terms of likely rules confusion, difficulty in explaining, difficulty in keeping track of things going on and so forth? I'm going to assume the answer probably includes Black Market, but what other kingdom cards/events/landmarks and so forth will maximise chaos?
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

SettingFraming

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Re: Most complex first game possible
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2016, 02:48:40 pm »
0

If I didn't want to be friends with someone any longer, I would put out there:

Urchin / Cultist / Storyteller / Haunted Woods / Tournament / Black Market (Bane) / King's Court / Possession / Transmute / Knights / Young Witch
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Re: Most complex first game possible
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2016, 02:49:41 pm »
0

I'd include Possession, Prince, Inheritance, Outpost.
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Re: Most complex first game possible
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2016, 02:53:26 pm »
0

I'd go with:

Peasant (bane)
Crossroads
Young Witch
Trader
Procession
Ironworks
Highway
Outpost
Band of Misfits
Possession
Castles

Mission
Inheritance

For sheer amount of rules confusion.

Qvist

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Re: Most complex first game possible
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2016, 02:54:17 pm »
+17

I would answer you, but I'm worried what you would do with this information to innocent people.

Chris is me

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Re: Most complex first game possible
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2016, 02:56:03 pm »
0

Events: Inheritance / Salt? (Maybe Donate)

Peasant
Black Market
Ironworks
Procession
Overlord
Outpost
Possession
Torturer
Highway
Swindler

A good combination of rules trip ups, a nonintuitive strategy, decisions, and pain.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Most complex first game possible
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2016, 03:34:47 pm »
+4

Surprised no one has put Black Market and Crown together. Crowning a Black Market while buying from another Black Market seems like one of the best tracking nightmares available.

DG

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Re: Most complex first game possible
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2016, 03:44:41 pm »
0

I'll give you ironworks, replace, and mill as a set of three, based on personal experience.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Most complex first game possible
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2016, 03:47:33 pm »
0

Thief, adventurer, pirateship, transmute, scout, colonies/platinums, coppersmith, noble brigand, cultist, sea hag, pearl diver
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Re: Most complex first game possible
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2016, 04:32:04 pm »
+3

I would answer you, but I'm worried what you would do with this information to innocent people.

They aren't inn... I don't have any plans. Purely hypothetical question.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
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Re: Most complex first game possible
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2016, 12:30:08 am »
0

Surprised no one has put Black Market and Crown together. Crowning a Black Market while buying from another Black Market seems like one of the best tracking nightmares available.

I seem to remember a thread about this, but I don't remember what the ruling was
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Re: Most complex first game possible
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2016, 12:56:05 am »
+6

Surprised no one has put Black Market and Crown together. Crowning a Black Market while buying from another Black Market seems like one of the best tracking nightmares available.

I seem to remember a thread about this, but I don't remember what the ruling was

- Play Black Market, get $2, reveal 3 cards from the BM deck (set A)
-- play a Crown
--- play Black Market, get $2, reveal 3 new cards (set B)
---- play other treasures in your hand for $
---- buy (or not) a card from set B, lose (or not) some $, return set B to the bottom
--- play Black Market a second time, get $2, reveal 3 new cards (set C)
---- play other treasures in your hand for $
---- buy (or not) a card from set C, lose (or not) some $, return set Cto the bottom
-- play other treasures in your hand for $
-- buy (or not) a card from set A, lose (or not) some $, return set A to the bottom

For added fun, replace any of the "other treasures for $" with "more Crowns, Black Markets, and Storytellers".

edit: also I think Villa is a nice fit for a nightmare intro kingdom.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2016, 12:57:45 am by michaeljb »
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Re: Most complex first game possible
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2016, 01:02:28 am »
+3

I find Pawn to be a fantastic card for newbies. It's "fun" watching them struggle for a minute, just to choose a card and an action. Some also get paralyzed by Cartographer, for some reason. So many choices!

King's Court is a great way to make friends too. They won't realize you can chain them one after another until the first time your turn takes 5 minutes.

Put at least one Duration, just so that at some point they realize they've shuffled it in before they should have, and ask you if it's ok if they fish for it from their deck to put it back into play.

Surprised no one has put Black Market and Crown together. Crowning a Black Market while buying from another Black Market seems like one of the best tracking nightmares available.

I seem to remember a thread about this, but I don't remember what the ruling was

- Play Black Market, get $2, reveal 3 cards from the BM deck (set A)
-- play a Crown
--- play Black Market, get $2, reveal 3 new cards (set B)
---- play other treasures in your hand for $
---- buy (or not) a card from set B, lose (or not) some $, return set B to the bottom
--- play Black Market a second time, get $2, reveal 3 new cards (set C)
---- play other treasures in your hand for $
---- buy (or not) a card from set C, lose (or not) some $, return set Cto the bottom
-- play other treasures in your hand for $
-- buy (or not) a card from set A, lose (or not) some $, return set A to the bottom

For added fun, replace any of the "other treasures for $" with "more Crowns, Black Markets, and Storytellers".

edit: also I think Villa is a nice fit for a nightmare intro kingdom.

What about buying a Mandarin somewhere in there.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2016, 01:05:21 am by pacovf »
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Re: Most complex first game possible
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2016, 02:07:53 am »
+3

I just hope everyone including Black Market remembers to give people their starting coin token from Baker.
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Re: Most complex first game possible
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2016, 06:50:34 am »
+2

I'd throw Rats in there just to fuck shit up.
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pedroluchini

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Re: Most complex first game possible
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2016, 07:01:44 am »
0

Also, make sure to use Shelters.
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Re: Most complex first game possible
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2016, 07:08:45 am »
+3

Technically there's no limit on how many Events and Landmarks you can have.
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Re: Most complex first game possible
« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2016, 07:11:22 am »
0

Further incentivise the players to actually use the action cards by including Bandit Fort.
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Re: Most complex first game possible
« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2016, 07:59:30 am »
+3

I think Bridge Troll is great. Tokens, Duration, cost reduction... Must come with an Event, because those don't get reduced. Possession is great because it's also a Potion cost card, and Villa is always very confusing. I think Catapult would go nicely with all this, because it's a split pile and Rocks has so many similar-seeming abilities (including gaining to deck, hooray). Engineer not being able to gain itself (but cost reduced Bridge Trolls) is also nice. Being able to Prince Bridge Trolls and then losing the effect is also sure to be fun.

Edit: Sorry for poor orthography, I'm very tired.
Edit 2: Oh, and absolutely include Procession to play Bridge Troll twice and remove it from play. Also, cost comparisons allow Catapults that were reduced to $0 into $1 Bridge Trolls.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2016, 08:10:35 am by Asper »
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Re: Most complex first game possible
« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2016, 10:41:31 am »
0

Technically there's no limit on how many Events and Landmarks you can have.

Right, so you definitely would include every single one for maximum complexity and confusion.
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Re: Most complex first game possible
« Reply #20 on: October 11, 2016, 12:43:10 pm »
0

Let's say I'm introducing the game to someone. What's the worst possible set of cards to use in terms of likely rules confusion, difficulty in explaining, difficulty in keeping track of things going on and so forth? I'm going to assume the answer probably includes Black Market, but what other kingdom cards/events/landmarks and so forth will maximise chaos?

Just show them how to empty the supply on the second turn.
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Re: Most complex first game possible
« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2016, 12:44:38 pm »
0

Have a Kingdom with no Actions, then Obelisk as the Landmark
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Re: Most complex first game possible
« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2016, 12:45:03 pm »
0

I was waiting for someone to suggest having every event + landmark. Let's just limit it to 2. Maybe 3 if there's some super bonus confusion you can get out of having all three, but yeah keep it limited.
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Re: Most complex first game possible
« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2016, 12:50:35 pm »
+2

I would answer you, but I'm worried what you would do with this information to innocent people.

They aren't inn... I don't have any plans. Purely hypothetical question.
To implement you'd need friends after all.
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Re: Most complex first game possible
« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2016, 01:02:57 pm »
0

Have a Kingdom with no Actions, then Obelisk as the Landmark

I was confused by the right course of action for a moment, but then I realized that it's no different than any other "do as much as you can" situation in Dominion. You fail to choose the action card, so "the chosen card" doesn't exist, so no bonus points awarded.
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