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Dingan

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Change of Plans
« on: September 29, 2016, 03:25:02 pm »
+1



Code: [Select]
Alms, Mission, Vineyard, Lighthouse, Native Village, Scrying Pool, Guide, Lookout, Masterpiece, City, Trading Post, Harem
http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160929/log.0.1475127765304.txt

I thought long and hard about this one.  Straight Trading Post / BM seems good.  But man, Scrying Pool.. and Vineyards -- always so tempting!  But no +buy or gaining, weak trashing (unless you want Silvers, which SP doesn't), and no virtual economy.  Doesn't feel like a Scrying Pool game.  But Vineyards!  Ugh.. I was torn.  I thought about it for like 3 minutes before doing anything.  I thought well, if I had 5/2 the choice would be easy -- open Trading Post / Silver (with the help of Alms) and call it a day.  But on 4/3.. hmm.. Vineyards!  Ok, so I opened Potion.  I figured if I can just get some level 3 Cities (maybe piles on Scrying Pool and.. Cities?), I would be off to the races with Vineyards.  Also if I get lucky, the SP attack will make them miss their TP, which would be pretty devastating.  And in all honesty, the tie-breaker for me was that a Scrying Pool / City / Vineyards thing would just be more fun than boring old TP/BM.  And isn't that why we play -- to have fun?  So that was my plan and I went with it.  Go for Scrying Pool / City / Vineyards.

But then after my first turn, to my surprise they opened 5/2 with Trading Post.  Hmm.  Darn.  Well, I'm sticking to my plan..

Game rolls on.  Opponent only plays TP once by T9, which is pretty lucky for me.  So there's that.  But I am nonetheless questioning this whole Scrying Pool thing.

Change of plan!  T8 -- I overpay for Masterpiece to get 5 Silvers.  I'm already more thin than my opponent who opened with a Trading Post.  I'm also effectively punting on the whole engine/Vineyards thing.  So be it.  I feel like I'm ahead at this point, and I never looked back (the score ended up being really close, but I feel I was in control the whole game).

Moral of the story: Always be willing to change your strategy mid-game, based on how the game evolves.  And when you think an opening is right, but then think it's wrong, it can actually still have been right for reasons you didn't initially realize.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Change of Plans
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2016, 03:25:56 pm »
+2

Disappointed that Plan isn't on the board.
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Chris is me

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Re: Change of Plans
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2016, 03:32:10 pm »
+1

Lookout is a dramatically better trasher on this board than Trading Post, particularly because of Alms and Mission. Alms lets you gain cards on Mission turns, so you aren't wasting a gain on giving yourself additional opportunities to trash down. I would legitimately consider opening Mission on 4 and Alms a Lookout right away to get thinning started, then Mission any chance I can and pick up a Potion and another Lookout before diving headfirst into Scrying Pool for draw. Potion cost cards and City are the only thing worth skipping Mission for in the early to mid game.

Getting City to Level 2 seems very challenging here, though, so maybe just a thin engine with lots of SP that can draw through Provinces and buys Vineyard on whiff turns is the best you can do. With constant extra turns it seems better than BM.
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Dingan

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Re: Change of Plans
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2016, 04:36:18 pm »
0

Lookout is a dramatically better trasher on this board than Trading Post, particularly because of Alms and Mission. Alms lets you gain cards on Mission turns, so you aren't wasting a gain on giving yourself additional opportunities to trash down. I would legitimately consider opening Mission on 4 and Alms a Lookout right away to get thinning started, then Mission any chance I can and pick up a Potion and another Lookout before diving headfirst into Scrying Pool for draw. Potion cost cards and City are the only thing worth skipping Mission for in the early to mid game.

Getting City to Level 2 seems very challenging here, though, so maybe just a thin engine with lots of SP that can draw through Provinces and buys Vineyard on whiff turns is the best you can do. With constant extra turns it seems better than BM.

My reasoning for getting a Trading Post (while still planning on building the engine) was that I needed $5 to buy Cities.  And Cities themselves don't give you any money.  And the only other way to get coin is Lighthouse.  So I figured I'd need some Silver.  And 1 Silver is better than 2 Coppers.  And you can always turn 2 Silvers into 1 Silver later if you want.

But regardless, I just don't think even with Mission/Alms the engine can outpace TP/BM.  Mission does waste a buy.. if you would have bought something >$4 that turn, which you will want to be doing a lot of.  Maybe I'm wrong.  But that's my gut instinct.
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Chris is me

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Re: Change of Plans
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2016, 04:41:22 pm »
+1

Lookout is a dramatically better trasher on this board than Trading Post, particularly because of Alms and Mission. Alms lets you gain cards on Mission turns, so you aren't wasting a gain on giving yourself additional opportunities to trash down. I would legitimately consider opening Mission on 4 and Alms a Lookout right away to get thinning started, then Mission any chance I can and pick up a Potion and another Lookout before diving headfirst into Scrying Pool for draw. Potion cost cards and City are the only thing worth skipping Mission for in the early to mid game.

Getting City to Level 2 seems very challenging here, though, so maybe just a thin engine with lots of SP that can draw through Provinces and buys Vineyard on whiff turns is the best you can do. With constant extra turns it seems better than BM.

My reasoning for getting a Trading Post (while still planning on building the engine) was that I needed $5 to buy Cities.  And Cities themselves don't give you any money.  And the only other way to get coin is Lighthouse.  So I figured I'd need some Silver.  And 1 Silver is better than 2 Coppers.  And you can always turn 2 Silvers into 1 Silver later if you want.

But regardless, I just don't think even with Mission/Alms the engine can outpace TP/BM.  Mission does waste a buy.. if you would have bought something >$4 that turn, which you will want to be doing a lot of.  Maybe I'm wrong.  But that's my gut instinct.

I guess I see the beginning of the game being like this:

1: Mission / Alms Lookout
2: Lookout / Mission / Alms Lookout
3: Lookout / (you may miss Mission?) / Alms Potion
4: Lookout / Mission / Lookout / Alms Silver
A few more turns: Lookout as much as you can, Mission when you can't get SP and gain a few Silver
Later: Switch to City buying and try draining that mess of a pile, or just single Province a turn with your really thin deck of Alms'd Silvers and a bunch of Scrying Poops
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terminalCopper

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Re: Change of Plans
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2016, 03:27:23 pm »
0

I believe in pool here. Chris mentioned correctly the mission-alms-lookout-synergy, and I think I will likely get something similar to

2 lookout, 4 pools, 2 Light Houses, Potion, Silver, Gold

without losing a turn, because I trash everything on the fly. If I keep a single copper, after T11 I will simultaneously get a prov per turn and attack my opponent 4 times.
That means that a BM-opponent without draw will have a hard time to get any more provinces, often starting with a four card hand while greening.

Edit: I would open with Potion rightaway. The biggest threat to slow down is to miss P2 too often.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2016, 03:29:13 pm by terminalCopper »
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Kirian

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Re: Change of Plans
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2016, 03:55:34 pm »
0

Lookout is a dramatically better trasher on this board than Trading Post, particularly because of Alms and Mission. Alms lets you gain cards on Mission turns, so you aren't wasting a gain on giving yourself additional opportunities to trash down. I would legitimately consider opening Mission on 4 and Alms a Lookout right away to get thinning started, then Mission any chance I can and pick up a Potion and another Lookout before diving headfirst into Scrying Pool for draw. Potion cost cards and City are the only thing worth skipping Mission for in the early to mid game.

Getting City to Level 2 seems very challenging here, though, so maybe just a thin engine with lots of SP that can draw through Provinces and buys Vineyard on whiff turns is the best you can do. With constant extra turns it seems better than BM.

My reasoning for getting a Trading Post (while still planning on building the engine) was that I needed $5 to buy Cities.  And Cities themselves don't give you any money.  And the only other way to get coin is Lighthouse.  So I figured I'd need some Silver.  And 1 Silver is better than 2 Coppers.  And you can always turn 2 Silvers into 1 Silver later if you want.

But regardless, I just don't think even with Mission/Alms the engine can outpace TP/BM.  Mission does waste a buy.. if you would have bought something >$4 that turn, which you will want to be doing a lot of.  Maybe I'm wrong.  But that's my gut instinct.

I guess I see the beginning of the game being like this:

1: Mission / Alms Lookout
2: Lookout / Mission / Alms Lookout
3: Lookout / (you may miss Mission?) / Alms Potion
4: Lookout / Mission / Lookout / Alms Silver
A few more turns: Lookout as much as you can, Mission when you can't get SP and gain a few Silver
Later: Switch to City buying and try draining that mess of a pile, or just single Province a turn with your really thin deck of Alms'd Silvers and a bunch of Scrying Poops

Are you numbering turns or shuffles?  If the first, where are the Buys coming from?  If the second, having no economy until turn 7 seems... sketchy.
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Chris is me

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Re: Change of Plans
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2016, 04:20:34 pm »
0

Lookout is a dramatically better trasher on this board than Trading Post, particularly because of Alms and Mission. Alms lets you gain cards on Mission turns, so you aren't wasting a gain on giving yourself additional opportunities to trash down. I would legitimately consider opening Mission on 4 and Alms a Lookout right away to get thinning started, then Mission any chance I can and pick up a Potion and another Lookout before diving headfirst into Scrying Pool for draw. Potion cost cards and City are the only thing worth skipping Mission for in the early to mid game.

Getting City to Level 2 seems very challenging here, though, so maybe just a thin engine with lots of SP that can draw through Provinces and buys Vineyard on whiff turns is the best you can do. With constant extra turns it seems better than BM.

My reasoning for getting a Trading Post (while still planning on building the engine) was that I needed $5 to buy Cities.  And Cities themselves don't give you any money.  And the only other way to get coin is Lighthouse.  So I figured I'd need some Silver.  And 1 Silver is better than 2 Coppers.  And you can always turn 2 Silvers into 1 Silver later if you want.

But regardless, I just don't think even with Mission/Alms the engine can outpace TP/BM.  Mission does waste a buy.. if you would have bought something >$4 that turn, which you will want to be doing a lot of.  Maybe I'm wrong.  But that's my gut instinct.

I guess I see the beginning of the game being like this:

1: Mission / Alms Lookout
2: Lookout / Mission / Alms Lookout
3: Lookout / (you may miss Mission?) / Alms Potion
4: Lookout / Mission / Lookout / Alms Silver
A few more turns: Lookout as much as you can, Mission when you can't get SP and gain a few Silver
Later: Switch to City buying and try draining that mess of a pile, or just single Province a turn with your really thin deck of Alms'd Silvers and a bunch of Scrying Poops

Are you numbering turns or shuffles?  If the first, where are the Buys coming from?  If the second, having no economy until turn 7 seems... sketchy.

I'm numbering normal turns and bundling Mission turns in with each number. Alms is usually bought on Mission turns.

The first "Lookout" on most lines is a play rather than a gain
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Kirian

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Re: Change of Plans
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2016, 04:38:06 pm »
0

The first "Lookout" on most lines is a play rather than a gain

AH, that makes more sense!
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SettingFraming

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Re: Change of Plans
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2016, 05:30:39 pm »
+1

First off: Good call changing plans. Sometimes this is simply the right thing to do  :)

Anyays, I've playtested this a bunch and Trading Post BM is just better, even with all the Mission-Alms-lookout tricks. Vineyards is just never going to happen on this board; the only +Buy is level 2 cities and against Trading Post BM level 2 cities are never going to happen. Thus, the Scrying Pool player has to build to buy Provinces. But this just helps the Trading Post player, because now the Trading post player only has to get 4-5 provinces.

Also, the Scrying Pool deck is really, really bad at holding its green and thus it really has to get 5 provinces to win. And that's just too tough of an ask against a competent Trading Post player (which your opponent was not).

If there was any form of +Buy on the board it wouldn't even be close and SP would be dominant by far. But there's not, so TP-BM is the best strategy here.
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