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Author Topic: Alchemy 2nd Edition  (Read 20071 times)

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Awaclus

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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #50 on: October 03, 2016, 11:47:48 am »
0

You guys realize this turns into a power creep thing, right?  That there will always be a "weakest" card?  If you prune and change too much, eventually that card will be Goons, and we'll all be in fetal positions

I'd rather play kingdoms with 10 cards that are more powerful than Goons than 10 cards that are less powerful than Silver.

Apart from Transmute, which Alchemy cards are worse then Silver?

Philosopher's Stone.

Surprisingly enough, the cards I voted for in this poll were Transmute and Philosopher's Stone.
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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #51 on: October 03, 2016, 12:16:19 pm »
0

You guys realize this turns into a power creep thing, right?  That there will always be a "weakest" card?  If you prune and change too much, eventually that card will be Goons, and we'll all be in fetal positions

I'd rather play kingdoms with 10 cards that are more powerful than Goons than 10 cards that are less powerful than Silver.

Apart from Transmute, which Alchemy cards are worse then Silver?

Philosopher's Stone.

Surprisingly enough, the cards I voted for in this poll were Transmute and Philosopher's Stone.

Okay, PS is often weak, but weaker than Silver??? With even a fairly slow gainer, its not hard to get 40 cards in your deck, which means you get a Province for each Philosopher's Stone. Feodum-enablers help PS a lot, but since you can gain any card, not just silvers, you can Stonemason, Trader and Masterpiece away to your hearts content.

I don't think PS is especially strong, but I do think it is underrated. I would rarely go for it if it is the only potion cost on the board, but if there are no more curses for Familiar and you have , you might as well.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2016, 12:17:36 pm by McGarnacle »
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Awaclus

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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #52 on: October 03, 2016, 12:25:53 pm »
+1

Okay, PS is often weak, but weaker than Silver??? With even a fairly slow gainer, its not hard to get 40 cards in your deck, which means you get a Province for each Philosopher's Stone. Feodum-enablers help PS a lot, but since you can gain any card, not just silvers, you can Stonemason, Trader and Masterpiece away to your hearts content.

I don't think PS is especially strong, but I do think it is underrated. I would rarely go for it if it is the only potion cost on the board, but if there are no more curses for Familiar and you have , you might as well.

PStone is super weak. I buy Silver reasonably often, PStone almost never.
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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #53 on: October 03, 2016, 01:22:12 pm »
0

PStone, is a quite weak, but situationally useful card, worse than silver, but it´s a card that I´d be sad if it was gone, since it´s quite an interesting slog card... But one thing that comes to mind though is that when playing Dominion with the physical cards it´s probably pretty annoying all the card counting... (I have never played alchemy with physical cards...)
« Last Edit: October 03, 2016, 01:23:29 pm by gloures »
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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #54 on: October 03, 2016, 01:47:25 pm »
+1

Scrying Pool would also be game-dominating without the attack part. So cast the overpowered card out together with the underpowered cards, Transmute.
One can debate about Philosopher Stone, a decent card that is rarely good and Herbalist which is boring but IMO OK as it supports playing with Treasure cards.
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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #55 on: October 03, 2016, 02:35:42 pm »
+2

Scrying Pool would also be game-dominating without the attack part. So cast the overpowered card out together with the underpowered cards, Transmute.
One can debate about Philosopher Stone, a decent card that is rarely good and Herbalist which is boring but IMO OK as it supports playing with Treasure cards.

Scrying Pool is powerful but not unreasonable, and the limiting factor of only one gain per shuffle sufficiently restricts access to the card throughout the game. That's basically the point of the Potion cost. Potion cards SHOULD be more powerful than the average card, to incentivize buying a Potion in games where it is the only card present.
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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #56 on: October 03, 2016, 06:47:03 pm »
+3

The problem I have with Pstone is that if I'm sloggin' away, then I won't see the Potion before a longish while (and the Stone after a longer while), and when I'll see it there will be a very real possibility that I won't hit 3p and then I'll just feel sad.
Maybe if it cost 2p or less I'd feel more comfortable going for it.
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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #57 on: October 05, 2016, 10:07:12 am »
+2

The problem I have with Pstone is that if I'm sloggin' away, then I won't see the Potion before a longish while (and the Stone after a longer while), and when I'll see it there will be a very real possibility that I won't hit 3p and then I'll just feel sad.
Maybe if it cost 2p or less I'd feel more comfortable going for it.

Plan ahead.

In a Mountebank slog I once invested in my Potion on Turn 3/4. knowing that I absolutely needed the PS for any chance of getting Province.  As the game slogged on victory was assured as each PS became a guaranteed Province.

PS is certainly a niche card but it enables strategies and counters that are otherwise unattainable.  In my opinion, that gives it an extremely good reason to stay.  There are certainly buffs that could be had like $2P for easier accessibility and perhaps a +Buy to make it easier to use excess cash.  But suffice to say, it fills a role in dominion that currently no other card does making it a well designed card.
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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #58 on: October 05, 2016, 12:09:22 pm »
+1

I'd replace Transmute.

I once opened Watchtower/Watchtower and then trashed Squires for Familiars extremely early. My bf went for PS and had 10 Curses very, very early. He then used those 10 Curses to bump his PS, bought a Colony, and we were even in points, with me having a lot of Cantrips and him having super-powered Treasures. Good times.
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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #59 on: October 05, 2016, 12:15:44 pm »
+2

The problem I have with Pstone is that if I'm sloggin' away, then I won't see the Potion before a longish while (and the Stone after a longer while), and when I'll see it there will be a very real possibility that I won't hit 3p and then I'll just feel sad.
Maybe if it cost 2p or less I'd feel more comfortable going for it.

Plan ahead.

In a Mountebank slog I once invested in my Potion on Turn 3/4. knowing that I absolutely needed the PS for any chance of getting Province.  As the game slogged on victory was assured as each PS became a guaranteed Province.

PS is certainly a niche card but it enables strategies and counters that are otherwise unattainable.  In my opinion, that gives it an extremely good reason to stay.  There are certainly buffs that could be had like $2P for easier accessibility and perhaps a +Buy to make it easier to use excess cash.  But suffice to say, it fills a role in dominion that currently no other card does making it a well designed card.

I agree, I love the card (despite potentially slow resolve times irl), but does P. Stone really benefit from having a potion cost, though? I feel it would be a niche card with or without the potion cost, so gating it off hurts it a lot more than other potion cards. I wonder how much better a P. Stone that only costs coins would be.
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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #60 on: October 05, 2016, 12:19:52 pm »
+1

Scrying Pool would also be game-dominating without the attack part. So cast the overpowered card out together with the underpowered cards, Transmute.

If you're saying that Scrying Pool would be dominating without affecting other players, but still with the Spy effect for your own deck: sure, maybe. Although I think people underestimate how much damage the attack does (when stacked, which it nearly always is). If you're saying that Scrying Pool would be dominating in its original form, with no Spy effect for anyone: that hasn't been my experience so far. Admittedly I've only used this version of Scrying Pool in one or two games so far, but it is much weaker.
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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #61 on: October 05, 2016, 03:40:06 pm »
0

The problem I have with Pstone is that if I'm sloggin' away, then I won't see the Potion before a longish while (and the Stone after a longer while), and when I'll see it there will be a very real possibility that I won't hit 3p and then I'll just feel sad.
Maybe if it cost 2p or less I'd feel more comfortable going for it.

Plan ahead.

In a Mountebank slog I once invested in my Potion on Turn 3/4. knowing that I absolutely needed the PS for any chance of getting Province.  As the game slogged on victory was assured as each PS became a guaranteed Province.

PS is certainly a niche card but it enables strategies and counters that are otherwise unattainable.  In my opinion, that gives it an extremely good reason to stay.  There are certainly buffs that could be had like $2P for easier accessibility and perhaps a +Buy to make it easier to use excess cash.  But suffice to say, it fills a role in dominion that currently no other card does making it a well designed card.

I agree, I love the card (despite potentially slow resolve times irl), but does P. Stone really benefit from having a potion cost, though? I feel it would be a niche card with or without the potion cost, so gating it off hurts it a lot more than other potion cards. I wonder how much better a P. Stone that only costs coins would be.

One thing this would do is that PS'd help you pick up more of itself - which, interestingly, would go with Alchemy's self-synergy theme. It'd have to cost $5, maybe even $6, but considering the self-synergy, i'm not even convinced this would be too much. It already costs "more" than $5, after all.
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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #62 on: October 05, 2016, 04:22:05 pm »
0

The problem I have with Pstone is that if I'm sloggin' away, then I won't see the Potion before a longish while (and the Stone after a longer while), and when I'll see it there will be a very real possibility that I won't hit 3p and then I'll just feel sad.
Maybe if it cost 2p or less I'd feel more comfortable going for it.

Plan ahead.

In a Mountebank slog I once invested in my Potion on Turn 3/4. knowing that I absolutely needed the PS for any chance of getting Province.  As the game slogged on victory was assured as each PS became a guaranteed Province.

PS is certainly a niche card but it enables strategies and counters that are otherwise unattainable.  In my opinion, that gives it an extremely good reason to stay.  There are certainly buffs that could be had like $2P for easier accessibility and perhaps a +Buy to make it easier to use excess cash.  But suffice to say, it fills a role in dominion that currently no other card does making it a well designed card.

I agree, I love the card (despite potentially slow resolve times irl), but does P. Stone really benefit from having a potion cost, though? I feel it would be a niche card with or without the potion cost, so gating it off hurts it a lot more than other potion cards. I wonder how much better a P. Stone that only costs coins would be.

One thing this would do is that PS'd help you pick up more of itself - which, interestingly, would go with Alchemy's self-synergy theme. It'd have to cost $5, maybe even $6, but considering the self-synergy, i'm not even convinced this would be too much. It already costs "more" than $5, after all.

The problem is that it would really have to cost more than $6.  Perhaps the best comparison is Bank at $7 which is a Kingdom Treasure without an upper bound and is really the opposite of PS.  Bank is best is where you are drawing your entire deck thus maximizing Banks value.  Because it can be both better or worse than Gold depending on how it is played its at $7.  I don't think there are any complaints about Banks cost. 

The difference with PS is that it shines in decks where you don't/can't draw your deck.  In those situations your PS's gradually gain power as the game progresses.  The challenge is that for some of those games, the $7 price range is unattainable.  With $3P, you limit the access to PS but at the same time increase its accesability in sloggy games as $3P (equivalent of $5) is much much easier to attain than just a straight $7.  If it were a straight $5, it would be too overpowered/accessible in its current state. 
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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #63 on: October 05, 2016, 07:54:10 pm »
+1

The problem I have with Pstone is that if I'm sloggin' away, then I won't see the Potion before a longish while (and the Stone after a longer while), and when I'll see it there will be a very real possibility that I won't hit 3p and then I'll just feel sad.
Maybe if it cost 2p or less I'd feel more comfortable going for it.

Plan ahead.

In a Mountebank slog I once invested in my Potion on Turn 3/4. knowing that I absolutely needed the PS for any chance of getting Province.  As the game slogged on victory was assured as each PS became a guaranteed Province.

PS is certainly a niche card but it enables strategies and counters that are otherwise unattainable.  In my opinion, that gives it an extremely good reason to stay.  There are certainly buffs that could be had like $2P for easier accessibility and perhaps a +Buy to make it easier to use excess cash.  But suffice to say, it fills a role in dominion that currently no other card does making it a well designed card.

I agree, I love the card (despite potentially slow resolve times irl), but does P. Stone really benefit from having a potion cost, though? I feel it would be a niche card with or without the potion cost, so gating it off hurts it a lot more than other potion cards. I wonder how much better a P. Stone that only costs coins would be.

One thing this would do is that PS'd help you pick up more of itself - which, interestingly, would go with Alchemy's self-synergy theme. It'd have to cost $5, maybe even $6, but considering the self-synergy, i'm not even convinced this would be too much. It already costs "more" than $5, after all.

The problem is that it would really have to cost more than $6.  Perhaps the best comparison is Bank at $7 which is a Kingdom Treasure without an upper bound and is really the opposite of PS.  Bank is best is where you are drawing your entire deck thus maximizing Banks value.  Because it can be both better or worse than Gold depending on how it is played its at $7.  I don't think there are any complaints about Banks cost. 

The difference with PS is that it shines in decks where you don't/can't draw your deck.  In those situations your PS's gradually gain power as the game progresses.  The challenge is that for some of those games, the $7 price range is unattainable.  With $3P, you limit the access to PS but at the same time increase its accesability in sloggy games as $3P (equivalent of $5) is much much easier to attain than just a straight $7.  If it were a straight $5, it would be too overpowered/accessible in its current state.

I think it's established that $3P is not about equal, but more than $5, as any Potion could have been a Silver, which would provide $2, but while Silver can be used for any card (including the $3 of $3P), Potion is restricted to a few chosen cards. Therefore, Potion adds an opportunity cost over Silver, and $3P are "more" than $5 in a sense of how hard it is to reach that cost.

Nonetheless, i wonder why PS shouldn't be able to cost $6. It might get better than Gold if your deck has more than 20 cards, but only if you are not going for draw or trashing. As both of those are relavant and strong strategies, i suppose a $6 Philosopher's Stone would pose some kind of oppositional strategy, but the fact it can't work together with some other good strategies means it's far from strictly better than Gold. Which, after all, isn't so much a problem for kingdom cards. Many players will buy a $5 kindgom card over Gold when having $6.
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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #64 on: October 05, 2016, 09:25:07 pm »
0

I voted for:

Possession: It is simply unfun to play with.

Philosophers Stone: It is too weak. I think that in my last 1000+ games, I've only bought it in one game, and I don't think such stats are atypical for Philosopher's stone.

Transmute: This card is okay except for the fact that it is rarely worth buying a potion just for it.
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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #65 on: October 07, 2016, 11:26:26 pm »
+1

I like the idea of Pstone getting a little tweak since it's main problem definitely is that in those thick decks you aren't really able to pick up more Pstones.

I really like the idea of some self-synergy, so that Pstones can pick up more Pstones. For example with the wording: "If you have a Pstone in play, this costs $3", keeping the current cost otherwise. It would be a neat twist of the Potion mechanic, which fits really well into the philosophy of dominion themes
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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #66 on: October 08, 2016, 12:34:07 am »
+2

PStones could produce a Potion in addition to any other resources they produce. I think that would fix them.

PStone is fine, the problem is you have to know the slog is coming and invest really easy in playing it
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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #67 on: October 10, 2016, 10:47:20 am »
+2

Alchemy is probably the most difficult set to fix, there's a relatively high percentage of duds (also due to the small set size), it's fairly impopular in general. Making it a full size expansion would be fun in my opinion, but it's probably not worth it considering the low popularity of the set.

Glossing over the individual cards, the ones that are obviously fine are Apprentice, Vineyard, Apothecary, University, Alchemist and Golem. The community seems to agree, none of those cards have more than 5 votes. The other ones are all debatable.

Herbalist is very narrow and it doesn't fit in the set all that well. The only card it combos with is Philosopher's Stone; in most cases you don't actually want to topdeck treasure, which is the main problem of the card. I mean, topdecking Potion is sometimes useful, but it requires a lot of luck and it's not worth it unless you have a lot of leftover terminal space. It could just be changed so that you can topdeck any card, like a terminal Scheme that doesn't draw, but gives +Buy and coin instead. Or it could become something else entirely.

Transmute is one of the worst duds in the game, about as bad as Scout and Adventurer, who also got the axe. Definitely needs to go.

Scrying Pool is difficult. It can lead to excruciatingly long turns, but the spying effect is interesting enough that I think it should stay on the card. It's also very strong, bordering on OP, but I think it's interesting enough for its strength.

I'd say Familiar could stay, it's certainly swingy but it's the only chance to ever have a cantrip curser. Any non-Potion cost would make it OP. And there are other swingy cards, such as KC and Treasure Map and Tournament. I mean, sometimes you need to have a bit of luck, and if you can't accept that you should probably stop playing Dominion and play chess instead. (No offense to anyone intended)

Philosopher's Stone is also a tricky case. It's weak, hardly ever useful, but the concept is just so interesting and unique. I think it would be a shame if it were to leave, even though I would certainly understand it.

Possession should just go. The concept of punishing a deck that's too good is interesting, but Possession just gives people headaches and it's no fun to play with, especially IRL.

So I voted Herbalist, Transmute and Possession.
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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #68 on: October 10, 2016, 01:37:10 pm »
+1

Would limiting Possession to once per turn make it too weak?
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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #69 on: October 10, 2016, 01:38:06 pm »
0

Would limiting Possession to once per turn make it too weak?

I doubt it, but it would make it even wordier.
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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #70 on: October 10, 2016, 08:46:22 pm »
+8

Possession II: Action, $6P
For each card the player to your right gained in their most recent turn, gain a card that costs the same or less.
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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #71 on: October 10, 2016, 10:16:00 pm »
0

Possession II: Action, $6P
For each card the player to your right gained in their most recent turn, gain a card that costs the same or less.

That actually sounds reasonable. It's a super Smugglers.
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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #72 on: October 10, 2016, 10:48:21 pm »
+15

Possession II: Action, $6P
For each card the player to your right gained in their most recent turn, gain a card that costs the same or less.

Please, take it to the fan card subforum.  ;)
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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #73 on: October 11, 2016, 01:54:52 am »
+7

Possession II: Action, $6P
For each card the player to your right gained in their most recent turn, gain a card that costs the same or less.

I like it, but the sequel to Possession has to be called "Possession II: Repossession".
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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #74 on: October 11, 2016, 10:54:29 am »
0

I like the idea of Pstone getting a little tweak since it's main problem definitely is that in those thick decks you aren't really able to pick up more Pstones.

I really like the idea of some self-synergy, so that Pstones can pick up more Pstones. For example with the wording: "If you have a Pstone in play, this costs $3", keeping the current cost otherwise. It would be a neat twist of the Potion mechanic, which fits really well into the philosophy of dominion themes

I like this. And theoretically, if you had a magical PS, you could use it to find more.
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