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Author Topic: Alchemy 2nd Edition  (Read 20057 times)

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AdrianHealey

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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #25 on: September 29, 2016, 07:46:31 pm »
0

Powercreem =\=
Cards that have a place depending on what's else on the board. Some cards never have a place.
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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #26 on: September 30, 2016, 01:43:07 am »
+2

But power creep isn't really a thing in Dominion. At least, it's very different than in CCGs.
Only a tiny fraction of the cards is available each game, and as soon as each single card is fun and viable a proportionate number of games compared to how fun it is, then the push for power creep fizzles.

In CCGs, the need of having a shifting metagame in a game environment where most of the (newer) cards are available means that the pubblisher needs to always provide cards that can beat the former best strategies, because otherwise the game gets stale.
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Donald X.

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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #27 on: September 30, 2016, 02:43:38 am »
+12

But power creep isn't really a thing in Dominion. At least, it's very different than in CCGs.
Only a tiny fraction of the cards is available each game, and as soon as each single card is fun and viable a proportionate number of games compared to how fun it is, then the push for power creep fizzles.

In CCGs, the need of having a shifting metagame in a game environment where most of the (newer) cards are available means that the pubblisher needs to always provide cards that can beat the former best strategies, because otherwise the game gets stale.
Yes.

In a CCG there's a push towards power creep (that the designers have to fight somehow). The main ways Magic fights it are by rotating cards out of Standard constantly, and by shifting which strategies get the best cards. Without a solution, you have the problem of, the new sets don't look good enough; you can address that by making them more powerful, but in the long run that burns you. And if you didn't have power creep you'd have people not caring about the new sets; you really need some solution like the rotating format.

In Dominion there's no push towards power creep. It doesn't accomplish anything. It's sad to have a village you never play if another village is out, a Smithy you never play when there's another Smithy out. Something will always be at the bottom there though, and power creep just doesn't fix it, it doesn't do anything of use. The new cards need to be different and fun, and beyond that they want to be as well-balanced relative to other cards as possible. They don't want to be too weak, except compared to the strongest cards; I don't mind if a card-drawer is worse than Wharf or a trasher is worse than Chapel. And they don't want to be too strong either.

Dominion and Intrigue are losing duds because that's mostly what they had for me to fix. It amounts to average card quality going up slightly, but the duds were real outliers. If everything were close enough to balanced, I would not feel like "replace the 6 worst cards" was a good move. Certainly if we pick the 6 worst cards in the second edition of Dominion, I don't feel like I should replace those, even though 6 are the 6 worst. They just aren't outliers like Scout etc.

Now there is complexity creep (in both games). You run out of simple things to do. That's a big issue for Dominion.
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Aleimon Thimble

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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #28 on: September 30, 2016, 03:18:32 am »
+2

If there were some serious power creep going on, that would mean that Chapel, Witch, Village, Militia, Smithy and Throne Room would no longer be viable. This is clearly not the case, those cards are still highly valuable in your deck today, even if you're mostly playing with Adventures and Empires cards otherwise.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #29 on: September 30, 2016, 03:34:58 am »
0

So if a card like Rebuild was in base Dominion I'm guessing you would be open to replacing it. It's not much about replacing duds as it is balancing things out, correct?
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madeofghosts

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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #30 on: September 30, 2016, 04:07:31 am »
0

I'd just ditch Potion altogether tbf.

Someone on here suggested an alternate Potion-based cost for Province, that might be good too.
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Donald X.

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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #31 on: September 30, 2016, 05:33:02 pm »
+4

So if a card like Rebuild was in base Dominion I'm guessing you would be open to replacing it. It's not much about replacing duds as it is balancing things out, correct?
Well the goal overall was, how should I put this, "to increase the number of decks to build, the number of things to do, while keeping things simple." In the case of Dominion and Intrigue that meant replacing duds; that ends up giving you more decks to build and more things to do. There is also the tangential goal of just fixing any other problems I could find, e.g. Spy is too slow.

Strong cards can reduce the number of things to do, by dominating games, especially by dominating games while shutting out other cards. If I were making Dark Ages 2nd Edition I would replace Rebuild, sure; it does that (for experienced players). That case is helped by relative popularity; it's trickier to replace very popular strong cards, e.g. Wharf. In the case of Chapel, it does shut out many other trashers, but still seemed worth keeping. It leaves you with a lot of game.
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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #32 on: September 30, 2016, 05:36:54 pm »
+7

Someone on here suggested an alternate Potion-based cost for Province, that might be good too.

I think that's called Vineyards.
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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #33 on: October 01, 2016, 01:38:57 am »
+2

So if a card like Rebuild was in base Dominion I'm guessing you would be open to replacing it. It's not much about replacing duds as it is balancing things out, correct?
Well the goal overall was, how should I put this, "to increase the number of decks to build, the number of things to do, while keeping things simple." In the case of Dominion and Intrigue that meant replacing duds; that ends up giving you more decks to build and more things to do. There is also the tangential goal of just fixing any other problems I could find, e.g. Spy is too slow.

Strong cards can reduce the number of things to do, by dominating games, especially by dominating games while shutting out other cards. If I were making Dark Ages 2nd Edition I would replace Rebuild, sure; it does that (for experienced players). That case is helped by relative popularity; it's trickier to replace very popular strong cards, e.g. Wharf. In the case of Chapel, it does shut out many other trashers, but still seemed worth keeping. It leaves you with a lot of game.

I'm just glad Bridge was spared the nerfhammer.
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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #34 on: October 01, 2016, 01:56:22 am »
+5

I feel like I'm one of the few people who think Possession is actually a good card and should stay even if Alchemy got redone.  I wouldn't oppose making it only able to do one turn, but other than that I feel like it fits in an interesting design space.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #35 on: October 01, 2016, 02:19:20 am »
0

I feel like I'm one of the few people who think Possession is actually a good card and should stay even if Alchemy got redone.  I wouldn't oppose making it only able to do one turn, but other than that I feel like it fits in an interesting design space.

I actually like Possession when it doesn't get too crazy, so I think I'd probably love a one-turn Possession.
The question is: is it worth all the rule pain?
I don't have a good answer to that.

I think I might start houseruling a "If the last turn wasn't theirs, ..." at the start of Possession and see how I like it.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #36 on: October 01, 2016, 02:23:07 am »
+2

I'd add enough cards to make it a big box including events.



Events costing $P that give a +buy essentially turn potion into an (interesting) treasure costing $4, so they're very palatable and easy to design.

I would also replace Transmute, Philosophers Stone, Possession and Familiar
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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #37 on: October 01, 2016, 04:06:51 am »
0

I feel like I'm one of the few people who think Possession is actually a good card and should stay even if Alchemy got redone.  I wouldn't oppose making it only able to do one turn, but other than that I feel like it fits in an interesting design space.

I don't mind playing with Possession.  I mind playing with Possession in person.
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sudgy

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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #38 on: October 01, 2016, 05:41:57 pm »
0

I feel like I'm one of the few people who think Possession is actually a good card and should stay even if Alchemy got redone.  I wouldn't oppose making it only able to do one turn, but other than that I feel like it fits in an interesting design space.

I actually like Possession when it doesn't get too crazy, so I think I'd probably love a one-turn Possession.
The question is: is it worth all the rule pain?
I don't have a good answer to that.

I think I might start houseruling a "If the last turn wasn't theirs, ..." at the start of Possession and see how I like it.

The thing is, we already have the rule pain.  We can't talk about replacing Possession now because it already exists, and all future cards will need to deal with it.  With a Dominion time machine, yeah, we can talk about how confusing the card is and whether we should keep it.  Otherwise, though, the rules confusions are here to stay.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

NoMoreFun

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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #39 on: October 01, 2016, 09:24:53 pm »
0

I feel like I'm one of the few people who think Possession is actually a good card and should stay even if Alchemy got redone.  I wouldn't oppose making it only able to do one turn, but other than that I feel like it fits in an interesting design space.

Minion spoils set ups, Smugglers piggybacks off another players good turn. Lots of boards prevent crazy megaturns, though it's more "can't" than "shouldn't". I do like how it's still a risk you can take, and you have ample time to prepare  for it since your opponent has to pick up a potion at some point.

Still, there's probably a way to achieve what Possession achieves in a simpler and less annoying card.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #40 on: October 01, 2016, 10:48:11 pm »
+4

You guys realize this turns into a power creep thing, right?  That there will always be a "weakest" card?  If you prune and change too much, eventually that card will be Goons, and we'll all be in fetal positions

I'd change Goons just by getting rid of the attack. The attack is superfluous; there's a design principle (discussed in the secret histories for Oracle regarding the dropping of its when gain) that the attack portion of an attack shouldn't be a side effect,  otherwise attacks are part of the game without anyone really wanting them to be there.

Ironically I think Oracle itself also suffers from that; the attack is too weak to be the point of the card but it really drags on when you use Oracle as an engine component.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #41 on: October 02, 2016, 03:47:02 am »
0

Well, if orcle looses the attack; it could very well just be m 'reveal two cards m. Put them in your hand or discard them and draw tw cards.'

Which could work.
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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #42 on: October 02, 2016, 08:07:50 am »
0

Well, if orcle looses the attack; it could very well just be m 'reveal two cards m. Put them in your hand or discard them and draw tw cards.'

Which could work.

It would be too much like Catacombs.
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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #43 on: October 02, 2016, 10:43:43 am »
+4

You guys realize this turns into a power creep thing, right?  That there will always be a "weakest" card?  If you prune and change too much, eventually that card will be Goons, and we'll all be in fetal positions

I'd rather play kingdoms with 10 cards that are more powerful than Goons than 10 cards that are less powerful than Silver.
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McGarnacle

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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #44 on: October 02, 2016, 07:59:36 pm »
0

You guys realize this turns into a power creep thing, right?  That there will always be a "weakest" card?  If you prune and change too much, eventually that card will be Goons, and we'll all be in fetal positions

I'd rather play kingdoms with 10 cards that are more powerful than Goons than 10 cards that are less powerful than Silver.

Apart from Transmute, which Alchemy cards are worse then Silver?
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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #45 on: October 02, 2016, 08:08:08 pm »
+5

Transmute is better than Silver. It's just not worth buying an otherwise dead Potion in order to get one Transmute. (Possible exception: Bonfire)
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #46 on: October 03, 2016, 08:22:24 am »
+1

Transmute is better than Silver. It's just not worth buying an otherwise dead Potion in order to get one Transmute. (Possible exception: Bonfire)

"Gain a Gold" doesn't seem that strong any more and you only get 3 from your starting estates. Turning your no longer useful actions into Duchies is good but Remodel would do that just fine in most cases. Turning Coppers into Duchies with 2 plays can't be done by Remodel, but I'm not sure that's particularly useful.

My guess is it would probably be a decent $4 but not always better than Silver (and not just in the pedantic "strictly better" sense).

One other fix could have been "When you gain this, if it's your turn, +$1 and +1 buy" so it has a lower opportunity cost and trashing Treasure (to gain Transmute) isn't as bad.

Transmute is an elegant concept, just too weak.
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #47 on: October 03, 2016, 08:42:15 am »
+7

Transmute's main problem is the Treasure -> Action step. Because there's no generic Action on every board, it has to go Copper -> Transmute, and you don't want large quantities of Transmutes.

That's why my preferred fix for it looks like this:

Jack's Transmute
Action - $4

Trash a card from your hand. If it is...
...an Action, gain a Victory card costing up to $5
...a Victory card, gain a Treasure costing up to $6
...a Treasure, gain an Action costing up to $4
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #48 on: October 03, 2016, 09:30:53 am »
+1

In lieu of other threads (there have been Seaside and Alchemy threads)

Prosperity: Replace Loan, Talisman, Royal Seal, Expand, Goons (but give one of the replacement cards its below the line effect), maybe Counting House (it's great when the card works, but that's not often enough, and that wasn't enough to save Coppersmith), maybe Monument now Plunder exists (but it's probably fine). A good reason to replace the cards would be to open up slots for more VP token ideas.

Cornucopia: Probably fine, although if Navigator gets replaced then maybe Harvest could pick up the slack (Reveal the top 5 cards of your deck. +$1 for each differently named card. Either discard them or put them all back)

Hinterlands: Replace Cache and Ill Gotten Gains with Events, and with Events now in the set they can fill in the Blanks. Replace Duchess, but give its below the line effect to a replacement card/event; one that can genuinely incentivise buying Duchies early in certain kingdoms instead of being a "sure why not". Replace Develop. Margrave and Oracle are ok but Margrave's attack is too strong for its vanilla effect to be Smithy with a bonus, and Oracle's attack is a bad combination of weak and annoying, so maybe those cards can be retooled.

Dark Ages: Replace Rebuild. Cultist would be worth a look as well as too overcentralising and not in an interesting or fun way (but it's probably fine). Vagrant is a "why not" card, and I think Donald X has gotten better at designing those sorts of cards (Ratcatcher and Patrician/Emporium), but it's not as bad as Pearl Diver. I'd prefer if Fortress had "When you gain or trash this, if it's your buy phase, put it on top of your deck, otherwise, put it in your hand" to make it useful in more games, or if Rats let you trash a hand of all Rats, but those would be controversial.

Guilds: Masterpiece could be an event. Events seem like they'd work really well with Coin Tokens and/or overpay. Rereleasing it with Masterpiece replaced with an Event and 17 new events would be a good replacement.

Adventures: One of the best things about the rereleases is the fact that blanks get filled in. Between now and the time for a rerelease, Donald X et al could come up with ideas for 6 more events, and maybe by then cards would look like they need to go (although as of now my only issue is Gear BM seems a bit too good)
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #49 on: October 03, 2016, 09:59:16 am »
+1

Hey man, give me some time
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