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Author Topic: Alchemy 2nd Edition  (Read 20062 times)

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AdrianHealey

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Alchemy 2nd Edition
« on: September 29, 2016, 01:14:14 pm »
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After the resounding success of the seaside 2nd expansion idea, let's discuss all of them. Next up, the slightly less popular expansion Alchemy.

To clarify: if you say 'I'd keep scrying pool, but replace the attack!', well that basically counts as replacing scrying pool. Any change that's not purely cosmetic or clarification on the words, counts as a change.

I'd probably change Transmute (a buffed version might be nice), scrying pool (go to hell, you evil spawn), famiiar (missed the $3/P? You're dead), philosopher's stone (do you like counting?) and possession. So yeah, not much to like here, I guess. But I still do like potion, though!

I guess potion works better if it leads to (strong) cards that are good when you already have other cards, like golem. (Or doesn't autoloose ou the game when you fail to align potion and money.) Again, looking at you familiar.

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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2016, 02:07:42 pm »
+6

Out of all the expansions, Alchemy really needs the most work. However, I think it near impossible we ever see an updated Alchemy for the simple reason that Donald X. states a lot of people hate/dislike this expansion, and if you go on BGG for instance, well that seems to hold true.

With that said:

Transmute is a useless card. It needs to be replaced with something else.

P Stone doesn't really work as a Potion card. It would be good though without a potion cost.

Herbalist is pretty boring. The top deck almost never comes in handy, although, I guess you can use it in this expansion, but we already have Peasant, so I would consider replacing it with some other +Buy card.

Pool should have the attack removed.

Alchemist and Familiar should cost 2P. 3P is just too swingy of a price point.

And, well, Possession is the most hated card ever. It needs to go.

Man, that's actually quite a lot of changes there..
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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2016, 02:13:21 pm »
+3

For Alchemy, it makes more sense to single out the cards worth keeping (e.g. Vineyard, Apprentice, University) and adapt them to 2nd-3rd editions of some other sets. Alchemy has enough problematic cards that "2nd Edition Alchemy" would basically be a new expansion with a few recycled cards (the good ones that weren't removed).
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Chris is me

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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2016, 02:17:24 pm »
+2

Obviously just take the part of Scrying Pool that inspects opponent decks off. That's easy. Rename the card if needed, whatever.

Transmute should be totally different. On buy +Buy to make its Potion only cost actually meaningful. I wouldn't mind if it was nonterminal either. I'm sure there are some big consequences to this I'm not seeing, but if you gain tons of them then you should be able to play them, I think. It's possible there is just no salvaging the card concept and replacing it is the best move.

Just get rid of Possession. It's nice and all what it does, but it's not worth the rules headache and the weird way other things have to be worded for it to work.

P Stone would be kinda neat unchanged but with +Buy. I don't think a slog card that costs Potion is fundamentally bad.

Herbalist is vanilla but I think it should be left as is. The Potion topdecking is useful within the set theme, and cheap +Buy is so scarce anyway. Maybe buff it to +$2 (yes, for $2).

Alchemist should remain 3P, Familiar should be 2P though.

Golem and Uni are great as is. Vineyard is perfect, and I think costing P is essential to the card working so well and being balanced.
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mail-mi

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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2016, 02:25:56 pm »
+4

Here's an idea: what if Possession was an event, costing 6P with a once per turn clause?
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2016, 03:07:35 pm »
+1

Here's an idea: what if Possession was an event, costing 6P with a once per turn clause?

I don't know. I've read a lot of threads on BGG and elsewhere about people who hate, hate, hate Possession for the fact someone takes over their turn. An Event would make it likely not as hated, but I think it would a card a lot of casual players would despise.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2016, 03:13:12 pm »
+1

The problem with posession: the guy gets to spend all your cointokens, replace your tokens, fuck up your duration cards, etc. It's so luck dependent (I had a ph-stone slog response to posessions, guy manaaged to disproportionately amount of times posesses me right when I had them in my hand, etc.)

I mean, if it had a 'both player gain the cards bought' clause or whatever, it may even be acceptable. But as is, it degenerates the game.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2016, 03:16:10 pm »
+1

The problem with posession: the guy gets to spend all your cointokens, replace your tokens, fuck up your duration cards, etc. It's so luck dependent (I had a ph-stone slog response to posessions, guy manaaged to disproportionately amount of times posesses me right when I had them in my hand, etc.)

I mean, if it had a 'both player gain the cards bought' clause or whatever, it may even be acceptable. But as is, it degenerates the game.

This.

There are simply times where one player gets Possession at the right times and takes over the other players deck at the right time, and you end up with a very lopsided game. Those are just some of the problems with Possession.
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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2016, 03:28:16 pm »
+3

You guys realize this turns into a power creep thing, right?  That there will always be a "weakest" card?  If you prune and change too much, eventually that card will be Goons, and we'll all be in fetal positions
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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2016, 03:35:00 pm »
+1

You guys realize this turns into a power creep thing, right?  That there will always be a "weakest" card?  If you prune and change too much, eventually that card will be Goons, and we'll all be in fetal positions
Well, the trick is to narrow the gap. If you have a range of 1 power to 10 power, it's better to change it to 2 to 8 power range.

Also, it's not always about making the game more balanced, sometimes cards can be balanced and still unfun.
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tripwire

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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2016, 04:04:10 pm »
+3

Regarding Possession, I know some people who love the card. For example, my wife is excited every time she sees it and goes for it no matter what. The one thing I wish was the case was that you couldn't stack possessions. That quickly turns from something potentially fun into something ugly.

I think the wow factor and the new gameplay it creates are reasons why it should stick around despite the number of people who hate how violating it can be.
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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2016, 04:12:22 pm »
+2

I'd love an Alchemy remake. I've said it before, but I think Alchemy's lack of popularity was due to how bad/wacky/slow/redundant its cards were, rather than due to the Potion gimmick itself.
Like most people here, I'd keep unchanged Uni, Vineyard, Apothecary, and Apprentice.
Transmute and philstone need some serious fix.
Possession, do we really need it.
Herbalist could also be replaced by something more interesting.
Familiar definitely needs a price review. Alchemist and Golem too, maybe.
Pool should lose the inspection part.

Yet, I don't think these changes would make Alchemy satisfying enough. Alchemy also suffers from having many cards filling the same role (Alchemist, Pool, Apprentice and Golem), so I'd take away a few. Moving Alchemist's bonus to another card could make sense. Or combining it with noninspecting Scrying Pool. Golem is also a weakish link, I wouldn't be too sad to see it go for variety's sake. Apprentice and Pool are clearly the memorable two in there.Then fill up the blanks with card-shaped things that make their Potion cost interesting, and that appeal to a variety of decks.
From the single-customer point of view this would probably be a good purchase, but the larger picture might be a bit bleak for RGG and Donald - Alchemy has such a bad name that many people would be wary to buy Alchemy II.
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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2016, 04:23:31 pm »
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You guys realize this turns into a power creep thing, right?  That there will always be a "weakest" card?  If you prune and change too much, eventually that card will be Goons, and we'll all be in fetal positions

It's not about power lever for me, it's about fun.
Useless cards are not as fun as very useful cards, so there's that. But Alchemy sorta sucks so I think it would be worth the power creep.
Also, nerfing the unfun part of Pool is probably something almost everybody here would agree upon. And thats's a nerf!
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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2016, 04:38:56 pm »
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Yah, nerfing Pool is not power creep. Also, recosting Familiar is actually the opposite of power creep since it actually makes the game more balanced.
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Chris is me

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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2016, 04:42:10 pm »
+2

Yah, nerfing Pool is not power creep. Also, recosting Familiar is actually the opposite of power creep since it actually makes the game more balanced.

It's not really even about making Pool worse, it's about it not slowing the game down nearly as much.
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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2016, 04:44:31 pm »
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Why has Possession as many votes as Herbalist, you heathens.
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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2016, 04:59:14 pm »
+2

You could make Potions consumable.  So like when you play a Potion to buy a Potion-cost card, the Potion is Trashed.  Also maybe reduce the cost to something more reasonable like $2.  Makes sense; I mean you have to drink the potion.
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2016, 05:02:48 pm »
+5

You could make Potions consumable.  So like when you play a Potion to buy a Potion-cost card, the Potion is Trashed.  Also maybe reduce the cost to something more reasonable like $2.  Makes sense; I mean you have to drink the potion.
It should also be renamed gunpowder.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2016, 05:10:37 pm »
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You could make Potions consumable.  So like when you play a Potion to buy a Potion-cost card, the Potion is Trashed.  Also maybe reduce the cost to something more reasonable like $2.  Makes sense; I mean you have to drink the potion.
It should also be renamed gunpowder.

I dunno, man, you'd have to retheme the entire set.
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2016, 05:15:15 pm »
+2

You could make Potions consumable.  So like when you play a Potion to buy a Potion-cost card, the Potion is Trashed.  Also maybe reduce the cost to something more reasonable like $2.  Makes sense; I mean you have to drink the potion.
It should also be renamed gunpowder.

I dunno, man, you'd have to retheme the entire set.
Replacement for Transmute:

Bomb 1G
Trash this and a card from your hand.

It's really good because it gets rid of itself in your deck, maybe it should cost an extra ?
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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2016, 05:20:10 pm »
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You could make Potions consumable.  So like when you play a Potion to buy a Potion-cost card, the Potion is Trashed.  Also maybe reduce the cost to something more reasonable like $2.  Makes sense; I mean you have to drink the potion.

You could probably give that on-buy effect to a couple of cards, and it would be cool.
For all cards, uh. Two buys and waiting a shuffle to get a card seems reeally slow and cumbersome.
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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #21 on: September 29, 2016, 05:20:30 pm »
+4

I don't really like Alchemy and oppose revisiting it.  But if we must, I would rethink the whole concept.

I think the potion mechanic is most successful when it functions as a floodgate.  In most cases, you only draw it once per shuffle.  Alchemists are great in large quantities, but it takes four shuffles to get 4 Alchemists, and you could get a teacher in about as much time.

The problem is that you're sad when you draw your potion and fail to hit the price point you need.  Thus I propose that all potion-cost cards should cost potion + debt.

In theory, you could also design potion-cost cards that you only want 1-2 copies of.  These cards must be strong to offset the cost of buying a whole potion just for that.  The problem is then that there's too much synergy between different potion-cost cards, as you could use the same potion to buy different cards at different points in the game.  So either the card is too weak on its own (looking at you, Transmute), or too strong with other potion cards.  Maybe these cards should trash the potion on buy.

Herbalist seems specifically designed to open up the floodgates further, but doesn't work too well with only basic treasure.  Even if it collides with gold, Herbalist only nets you $4, at the cost of 2 draw and 1 action.  I think it should be a cantrip, or +2 Cards.
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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #22 on: September 29, 2016, 05:24:36 pm »
+5

The problem is that you're sad when you  fail to hit the price point you need.  Thus I propose that all cards should cost debt.
FYP
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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #23 on: September 29, 2016, 06:55:42 pm »
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I actually really like Philosopher's Stone. Yes, it can be weak, but with + Buy it can be good. Plus its cool. Dropping the deck inspection on SP would work. Other than that, buff Transmute and maybe make Possession an Event as was suggested.

I actually like Alchemy. Yes, some of the cards are a pain, but its a high-skill expansion, just like Cornucopia.
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Re: Alchemy 2nd Edition
« Reply #24 on: September 29, 2016, 06:58:06 pm »
+1

You guys realize this turns into a power creep thing, right?  That there will always be a "weakest" card?  If you prune and change too much, eventually that card will be Goons, and we'll all be in fetal positions

I totally agree with this. I think we are already experiencing power creep in the 2 latest expansions, this would just make it worse.
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