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Author Topic: Seaside 2nd generation  (Read 9828 times)

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AdrianHealey

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Seaside 2nd generation
« on: September 28, 2016, 02:20:42 am »
+2

So, pretty easy question, right. You could answer to the follow up question asking what you think is missing from the set. For example, I just noticed there is no typical terminal 3 card draw. (Wharf is kind of, but not completely.)

Just for funzies, I am not Donald's secret second account to collect information.

I am a pretty conservative kind of a guy. At least, for this expansion it seems. Only Embargo, Pearl Diver and Navigator, I guess, have to go for me. If I had to push it, maybe Sea Hag for a slightly more interesting curser, treasure map because of it's swingyness and maybe Smugglers for the same reason. But generally, I think Seaside is pretty good. Embargo, I feel, can go because Swamphag is a better version of it. I have used embargo too many times on scout or pearl diver kind of piles, just to be able to use the terminal +$2 and never have to bother with the curses either way. Pearl Diver is just awful (and Haven is a better pearl diver anyway). Navigator, although, I guess, useful in slogs or something, has never really appealed to me. Cost relative to benefit is just insane. Maybe if it wasn't terminal.

Oh yeah, and pirate ship. Forgot about that. Ugh. Pirate ship.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2016, 02:28:16 am by AdrianHealey »
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gamesou

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2016, 02:45:56 am »
+5

I would vote for replacing nothing, except that this is not allowed.
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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2016, 03:20:59 am »
+3

I would add a Throne variant. Maybe something that turns non durations into durations.
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Accatitippi

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2016, 04:22:53 am »
0

I'm surprised I'm the only one who voted Merchant Ship. I know it has its uses, and it's probably one of the best coins-for-one-Action deals out there (Wine Merch gives 2 then 4, Giant averages at 3, Harvest - let's not talk about Harvest). But plenty of cards give lots of coins-for-no-Actions (like uh, Gold), and even coins-for-no-Actions-nor-Cards (like the ton of Peddlers in Base 2).
Merchant Ship really wants Wharf's +Buy.
I've voted Pirate Ship, but I really like the card, so I'd rather it stay in principle - just like Great Hall and Scout did.
Otherwise, the usual drill:
Pearl Diver, Embargo (replaceable by Event - I don't feel Swampie scratches that itch, but maybe Tax will), Navigator (they can't all be the worst 4 ever, but now it might be close), maybe Sea Hag (in 3+ player games Ambassador is a junker, not a thinner, combine that with another cheap junker in the set and playing with Seaside will be like sailing on molasses), maybe Outpost. Outpost is great, actually, but I'd like to see it get a small buff.
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Mr Anderson

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2016, 05:00:18 am »
+1

I'm surprised I'm the only one who voted Merchant Ship. [] Merchant Ship really wants Wharf's +Buy.

I suppose I am the only one that voted Wharf, but just to break the trend of not releasing strictly better or worse cards than the existing ones at the same cost: remove Wharf's +buy and put it on Merchant Ship. Lookout has a less frustrating sibling (Sentry). Pearl Diver, Navigator and Pirate Ship do not seem to be controversial choices.

« Last Edit: September 28, 2016, 05:03:06 am by Mr Anderson »
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madeofghosts

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2016, 05:12:04 am »
0

Almost all the cards here I like or at least think are "interesting". Island and Lookout are tricky to use but I like them being in there. I don't even mind Pearl Diver really. I picked the only ones I never find myself buying - Smugglers, Pirate Ship and Explorer.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2016, 05:30:49 am »
0

I have bought explorer many a time. Mainly as trash for benefit fodder food supplier. Smugglers is a bit wacky, but finds it's usage.

The consensus seems that not too many cards of seaside need to be replaced.
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RevanFan

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2016, 06:45:40 am »
+1

I would add a Throne variant. Maybe something that turns non durations into durations.
That could actually work really well as a Promo, I think
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2016, 07:29:16 am »
+3

Pearl Diver is a waste of a slot. It would be good if there were more cards that interacted with the top card of the deck, but it seems like there are just as many cards where 2nd from the top is more important (Wishing Well, Herald, Magpie, Ironmonger, Patrician, Vagrant). Harbinger should be the final nail in its coffin. There are a lot of things that can be done with bottom deck effects to replace it with.

Navigator has a good concept that was done much better by Guide. I don't hate the card but it's probably ok to replace.

Embargo is really interesting but it would probably be fine as an event (though not quite as replaceable as Cache or Masterpiece)

I don't know what to make of Pirate Ship any more. I used to have a lot of fun with it but that was before I realised that trashing other people's Copper was bad. It might just be a few tweaks away or maybe another card can do the "figure out when to stop attacking and start cashing in" concept better.

Cutpurse is problematic in games with 4+ players, and its ground is pretty well covered by Taxman and Bridge Troll. It would be fine to replace.

Sea Hag deserves to be a $5 with a positive effect. If Explorer gets canned then maybe its effect could be Silver gaining on top of the deck for Symmetry (I am still surprised Bureaucrat wasn't replaced)

Lookout would be good if not for the fact you could be forced to trash a good card. A simple wording change would fix it (discard one, put one back, you may trash the rest).

Wharf really doesn't need +buy but there'd be an uproar if it was replaced.

I have no idea what people's problem with Smugglers is, other than the difficulty with tracking. Smugglers and Embargo discourage symmetrical play which is really important in Dominion.

Seaside has room for another card so I'd be interested in a revised version just so the box can be filled out. The Duration Throne Room seems like the most obvious idea. I'd also like to see a powerful card that ALWAYS misses the reshuffle (ie it has a chancellor effect) to play with that concept.
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Accatitippi

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2016, 08:12:28 am »
+1

Lookout would be good if not for the fact you could be forced to trash a good card. A simple wording change would fix it (discard one, put one back, you may trash the rest).

I think Lookout is fine if you track your deck a wee bit. It can backfire sort of badly, but in my experience it usually hurts me when I already knew it was a risky play but played it anyway. A Lookout today is much better than an Upgrade tomorrow. :)

Quote
Wharf really doesn't need +buy but there'd be an uproar if it was replaced.
Yes, I'm afraid it would be really unpopular to change Wharf. Everybody thinks it's OP, but everybody loves it anyway. (compare with Cultist and Rebuild)
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2016, 08:29:58 am »
+6

Wharf really doesn't need +buy but there'd be an uproar if it was replaced.
Yes, I'm afraid it would be really unpopular to change Wharf. Everybody thinks it's OP, but everybody loves it anyway. (compare with Cultist and Rebuild)
It's because Wharf isn't OP in a strategy-destroying way. When Wharf is on the board, the best strategy tends to be some Wharf-powered engine, but that's OK, because there are a bunch of other cards on the board that you can look at to see what will combine best with Wharf to really make the engine fire. Cultist and Rebuild, on the other hand, tend to railroad you into strategies that make you not care about the other nine cards in the kingdom.
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Accatitippi

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2016, 08:34:14 am »
+1

Wharf really doesn't need +buy but there'd be an uproar if it was replaced.
Yes, I'm afraid it would be really unpopular to change Wharf. Everybody thinks it's OP, but everybody loves it anyway. (compare with Cultist and Rebuild)
It's because Wharf isn't OP in a strategy-destroying way. When Wharf is on the board, the best strategy tends to be some Wharf-powered engine, but that's OK, because there are a bunch of other cards on the board that you can look at to see what will combine best with Wharf to really make the engine fire. Cultist and Rebuild, on the other hand, tend to railroad you into strategies that make you not care about the other nine cards in the kingdom.

Exactly.
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Davio

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2016, 08:35:30 am »
0

I voted for Treasure Map, because I like the idea, but surely it can be implemented in a better way.

Maybe something like Rats where if you don't hit, you get another Treasure Map?
Which thematically is like some sort of clue.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2016, 08:36:38 am by Davio »
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madeofghosts

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2016, 08:42:52 am »
+1

Treasure Map is great because I can never resist buying it even on boards where it's clearly a terrible prospect.
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Aleimon Thimble

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2016, 09:07:42 am »
+2

Wharf really doesn't need +buy but there'd be an uproar if it was replaced.
Yes, I'm afraid it would be really unpopular to change Wharf. Everybody thinks it's OP, but everybody loves it anyway. (compare with Cultist and Rebuild)
It's because Wharf isn't OP in a strategy-destroying way. When Wharf is on the board, the best strategy tends to be some Wharf-powered engine, but that's OK, because there are a bunch of other cards on the board that you can look at to see what will combine best with Wharf to really make the engine fire. Cultist and Rebuild, on the other hand, tend to railroad you into strategies that make you not care about the other nine cards in the kingdom.

Exactly. Wharf is OP in the same way Chapel, Goons, King's Court and Scrying Pool are. They are ruthlessly strong but they do not make all the other cards obsolete.
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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2016, 09:13:40 am »
0

People should vote for treasury. It doesn't add much to the game. 3 people voting for outpost? That isn't even fair.
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J Reggie

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2016, 09:40:27 am »
0

I like the idea of colliding things in order to get a big payload, but don't like that it's a terminal action, or that you have to trash it. Maybe if it was a treasure that you wanted to collide with another copy... and it could cost $2 so you could always open with two of them...

sorawotobu

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2016, 10:10:00 am »
0

I like Treasure Map a lot as is and don't think you should be able to open with two. The main thing I would want to change is make Sea Hag put a Curse on your Deck without discarding the top card. On average that would make the card ever so slightly stronger but would eliminate those games that you feel like you lost just because you got your Sea Hag or your Chapel hagged.

Pearl Diver is weak and boring so it could be replaced with a real card but Seaside doesn't have the problem that Base and Intrigue had where on most boards you just don't get to do anything. One dud doesn't hurt the set too much.

Merchant Ship is boring and not the greatest card, I doubt many people would miss it.

Embargo is really cool and I wish it was good more often. It could get "When you buy this/gain this during your turn, discard your deck." That would make it much faster and more unique. When you open 5/2 with Embargo and a good 5, which is the case where you don't want Embargo buffed imo, it doesn't even make a difference (and with a 2/5 opening it actually gets worse). Since you're only playing it once anyways it could get +1 action (instead of the other change, probably not in addition to it but maybe).

Duration Throne is a great idea, could be as simple as
Quote
Captain's Cabin
4$ Action - Duration
You may play an action card from your hand. If you do, play it again at the start of your next turn.

//edit: I immediately noticed that Captain's Cabin probably shouldn't work on Durations.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2016, 10:12:20 am by sorawotobu »
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Mr Anderson

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2016, 10:12:25 am »
0

Duration Throne is a great idea, could be as simple as
Quote
Captain's Cabin
4$ Action - Duration
You may play an action card from your hand. If you do, play it again at the start of your next turn.

No, that is way too weak, pretty much just a less flexible Scheme you can only use every other turn.
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sorawotobu

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2016, 10:51:14 am »
+1

Duration Throne is a great idea, could be as simple as
Quote
Captain's Cabin
4$ Action - Duration
You may play an action card from your hand. If you do, play it again at the start of your next turn.

No, that is way too weak, pretty much just a less flexible Scheme you can only use every other turn.

There's a difference between putting the card on top of your deck and letting you play it.
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Harley_Beckett

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #20 on: September 28, 2016, 10:53:33 am »
0

The main thing I would want to change is make Sea Hag put a Curse on your Deck without discarding the top card. On average that would make the card ever so slightly stronger but would eliminate those games that you feel like you lost just because you got your Sea Hag or your Chapel hagged.

Sea Hag is designed that way for a very good reason though.  It stops the top of a player's deck getting crowded with Curses in a multiplayer, multi-Hag situation.
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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2016, 10:59:23 am »
0

The main thing I would want to change is make Sea Hag put a Curse on your Deck without discarding the top card. On average that would make the card ever so slightly stronger but would eliminate those games that you feel like you lost just because you got your Sea Hag or your Chapel hagged.

Sea Hag is designed that way for a very good reason though.  It stops the top of a player's deck getting crowded with Curses in a multiplayer, multi-Hag situation.

Good point, but it's still way more elegant if it didn't discard a random card from your deck, even if that means one more line of text.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2016, 11:05:33 am »
+4

The main thing I would want to change is make Sea Hag put a Curse on your Deck without discarding the top card. On average that would make the card ever so slightly stronger but would eliminate those games that you feel like you lost just because you got your Sea Hag or your Chapel hagged.

Sea Hag is designed that way for a very good reason though.  It stops the top of a player's deck getting crowded with Curses in a multiplayer, multi-Hag situation.

Good point, but it's still way more elegant if it didn't discard a random card from your deck, even if that means one more line of text.

A better version would be: 'Every player reveals the top cards of his deck. If it's not a curse, they gain a curse to the top of their deck.'

There, no more multiplayer horribleness.
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sorawotobu

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2016, 11:05:52 am »
0

The main thing I would want to change is make Sea Hag put a Curse on your Deck without discarding the top card. On average that would make the card ever so slightly stronger but would eliminate those games that you feel like you lost just because you got your Sea Hag or your Chapel hagged.

Sea Hag is designed that way for a very good reason though.  It stops the top of a player's deck getting crowded with Curses in a multiplayer, multi-Hag situation.

That's a good point. I generally play 4P irl and only own Seaside and Base, so most of the time it's those or those + Cornucopia. So I get a lot of Sea Hag multiplayer games (relative to the total number of games I get to play) and haven't found that Sea Hag discards Curse terrible often. And then there's Jester, which is a card that could have been balanced for multiplayer but was balanced for 2P instead (and is pretty nuts in multiplayer). Given that multiplayer games don't tend to be all that competitive I would definitely prefer cards being balanced for 2P. So the issue with Sea Hag is, would it be too unfun in multiplayer? One way to resolve that would be to let players choose whether they want to discard their top card, which is probably too stally, or have them reveal their top card and discard it if it's Curse. That's what I would go with.

//edit:

The main thing I would want to change is make Sea Hag put a Curse on your Deck without discarding the top card. On average that would make the card ever so slightly stronger but would eliminate those games that you feel like you lost just because you got your Sea Hag or your Chapel hagged.

Sea Hag is designed that way for a very good reason though.  It stops the top of a player's deck getting crowded with Curses in a multiplayer, multi-Hag situation.

Good point, but it's still way more elegant if it didn't discard a random card from your deck, even if that means one more line of text.

A better version would be: 'Every player reveals the top cards of his deck. If it's not a curse, they gain a curse to the top of their deck.'

There, no more multiplayer horribleness.

So that version wouldn't always give out a Curse. Might be ok but I think I prefer discarding Curse if it's the top card and then always putting Curse on top.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2016, 11:08:02 am by sorawotobu »
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Harley_Beckett

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2016, 11:11:01 am »
0

The main thing I would want to change is make Sea Hag put a Curse on your Deck without discarding the top card. On average that would make the card ever so slightly stronger but would eliminate those games that you feel like you lost just because you got your Sea Hag or your Chapel hagged.

Sea Hag is designed that way for a very good reason though.  It stops the top of a player's deck getting crowded with Curses in a multiplayer, multi-Hag situation.

Good point, but it's still way more elegant if it didn't discard a random card from your deck, even if that means one more line of text.

A better version would be: 'Every player reveals the top cards of his deck. If it's not a curse, they gain a curse to the top of their deck.'

There, no more multiplayer horribleness.

I like it, but if Sea Hag loses the ability to give out multiple curses per turn, it would need either a power buff (+2 coin?) or a price reduction, IMHO.
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