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Author Topic: Seaside 2nd generation  (Read 18774 times)

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Harley_Beckett

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #25 on: September 28, 2016, 11:16:22 am »
0

The main thing I would want to change is make Sea Hag put a Curse on your Deck without discarding the top card. On average that would make the card ever so slightly stronger but would eliminate those games that you feel like you lost just because you got your Sea Hag or your Chapel hagged.

Sea Hag is designed that way for a very good reason though.  It stops the top of a player's deck getting crowded with Curses in a multiplayer, multi-Hag situation.

That's a good point. I generally play 4P irl and only own Seaside and Base, so most of the time it's those or those + Cornucopia. So I get a lot of Sea Hag multiplayer games (relative to the total number of games I get to play) and haven't found that Sea Hag discards Curse terrible often.

See, that surprises me.  In a 4P IRL game with Sea Hag, I can totally see everyone opening SH/Silver and player four getting 3 curses on top of their deck by turn four.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #26 on: September 28, 2016, 11:27:00 am »
0

It seems only pirate ship, pearl diver and navigator or getting cut

Embargo, sea hag, treasure map and explorer only if we really need to add something.

I call that: 'great succes fo seaside', good expansion.
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sorawotobu

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #27 on: September 28, 2016, 11:31:40 am »
0

The main thing I would want to change is make Sea Hag put a Curse on your Deck without discarding the top card. On average that would make the card ever so slightly stronger but would eliminate those games that you feel like you lost just because you got your Sea Hag or your Chapel hagged.

Sea Hag is designed that way for a very good reason though.  It stops the top of a player's deck getting crowded with Curses in a multiplayer, multi-Hag situation.

That's a good point. I generally play 4P irl and only own Seaside and Base, so most of the time it's those or those + Cornucopia. So I get a lot of Sea Hag multiplayer games (relative to the total number of games I get to play) and haven't found that Sea Hag discards Curse terrible often.

See, that surprises me.  In a 4P IRL game with Sea Hag, I can totally see everyone opening SH/Silver and player four getting 3 curses on top of their deck by turn four.

Maybe Sea Hag discarding Curse is just not something memorable and that's why it doesn't seem too bad to me. Most of the time only two, maybe three players out of four open with it (because of 5/2 or because of preference) and then you don't get swamped that quickly. but yeah, I think
Quote
Each other player reveals the top card of their Deck. If it's a Curse, they discard it, otherwise they put it back. Either way they gain a Curse to the top of their Deck.

would be the way to go. Solves all the problems.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #28 on: September 28, 2016, 11:43:37 am »
+2


Duration Throne is a great idea, could be as simple as
Quote
Captain's Cabin
4$ Action - Duration
You may play an action card from your hand. If you do, play it again at the start of your next turn.

//edit: I immediately noticed that Captain's Cabin probably shouldn't work on Durations.

Donald tried that exact card already and nixed it. It's in the secret histories somewhere.

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Kirian

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #29 on: September 28, 2016, 11:50:37 am »
0

I would vote for replacing nothing, except that this is not allowed.

This.

If I absolutely were forced to cut one, it would be Pearl Diver.
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AJD

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #30 on: September 28, 2016, 12:24:42 pm »
0


Duration Throne is a great idea, could be as simple as
Quote
Captain's Cabin
4$ Action - Duration
You may play an action card from your hand. If you do, play it again at the start of your next turn.

//edit: I immediately noticed that Captain's Cabin probably shouldn't work on Durations.

Donald tried that exact card already and nixed it. It's in the secret histories somewhere.

"a cute card that was just so awful", "both confusing and weak"

(That said, I've never really seen what's so bad about allowing it to work on Durations.)
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AJD

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #31 on: September 28, 2016, 12:26:23 pm »
0

(That said, I've never really seen what's so bad about allowing it to work on Durations.)

(well, maybe Archive)
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A Ladder

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #32 on: September 28, 2016, 12:41:39 pm »
0

I would vote for replacing nothing, except that this is not allowed.

This.

If I absolutely were forced to cut one, it would be Pearl Diver.

Same. Navigator is a close second, but I've used it in games.

Jack Rudd

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #33 on: September 28, 2016, 01:11:29 pm »
0

I now want to play a long string of Captain's Cabins and see just how many Actions I can auto-play at the start of the following turn.
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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #34 on: September 28, 2016, 01:13:13 pm »
0

I now want to play a long string of Captain's Cabins and see just how many Actions I can auto-play at the start of the following turn.

We already have that card.  It's called Prince.
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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #35 on: September 28, 2016, 01:29:22 pm »
+1

Pearl Diver and Navigator.

PD just isn't compelling in what it adds to a given kingdom.  Buff it by allowing the revealed card to either go on top of the deck or the discard pile.  Then you actually get to dive for a different pearl each play rather than revealing Estate on your first play and then getting no benefit from your next 3 played that hand.

Navigator is simply outclassed as a $4-cost card. especially with Scavenger giving more options for what goes on top and better cycling power.  Make it $3 or give it a little buff and it stays imo.
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #36 on: September 28, 2016, 01:52:38 pm »
0

What I'd Replace;

Pearl Diver:

Nuff said, moving on. It sucks and adds almost nothing to the game. There shouldn't be cards that you only get when you never need something else.
Reason to axe: You only get it over nothing.

Lookout:

This is a tricky one. It's okay, but I don't like playing it. It's too risky late-game and I hate the feeling of trashing/skipping my good cards.
Reason to axe: It's not fun.

Navigator:

It's cool, and has its uses, but it has the same pitfall as scout. Too weak. A better version at or weaker at would be fine, but for now it's just a boting old terminal .
Reason to axe: Too weak.

Sea Hag:
I'd just want this redone at . Donald's already said enough on the issue.
Reason to axe: Too degenerate on games.

Explorer:
Ignoring the meme, I do think this is too weak, and boring to boot. There are so many ways to tweak this concept but this just doesn't seem to work out. Collision realted cards are generally frowned upon, and Gold and Silver are overrated.
Reason to axe: Hasn't aged well.

Outpost:
Kinda an unpopular opinion potion, but outpost should be axed. It's too wonky and somebody else taking another turn is annoying for begginers. The whole clean-up thing is annoying too. like most of the Seaside cards, I'd be up for it being replaced with something simmilar-ish though.
Reason to axe: Too wonky and annoying for the good it does.
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NolanA

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #37 on: September 28, 2016, 02:41:41 pm »
+3

As a whole, I think Seaside does a much better job with card selection that the original Base cards.  If I play a few dozen games with just Seaside + Base, I'm probably going to buy every Seaside card multiple times.  All Seaside cards have a reasonably likely scenario where they are helpful.  However, there are several Base cards that I'm probably not going to play in any of the dozens of games.  All of these low play value Base cards were removed in the 2nd edition.  As a whole, I think Seaside is a good expansion that really enhances the game.  That said, there are some things I think could be improved.

Looking at the Seaside cards as a whole, one of the first thing that stands out to me is the large number of $2 cards and lack of any cards $6+ cards.  The wiki mentions this was intentional to balance out Prosperity.  Now that there are more expansions, balancing out Prosperity is probably not as important, so I'd favor having the card costs more similar to other expansions -- dropping 1 or 2 of the $2 cards, and adding a $6+ card.   I also think 3 villages is high for a single expansion, particularly with the large number of cantrips, so I'd favor dropping one of the villages. 

Most of the cards also have relatively straightforward implementations, leading to straightforward strategies that are often quite similar to Base.  It's rare for me to stumble across a unique strategy that I had never considered, yet is very powerful, or cards that combo in special and powerful way that I had not considered.  This reduces how much long term pleasure I get from the expansion by discovering new things. Compared to base, many cards play well with blunt strategies, such as buying as many as possible.  For example, bluntly buying a large number of Wharfs, Ghost Ships, Light Houses, or Fishing Villages is usually going to work out a lot better than buying a lot of Smithy/Council/Library, Militia, Moat, or Villages. Along the same lines, there are fewer good, less common strategy enablers, such as Rush enablers and Gardens enablers, although Swamp Hag + Gardens can be an interesting and effective 3 Pile / Rush type game.  I'd favor a larger portion of cards with unique and less obvious interactions that require more finesse to play effectively, and give more long term play value from discovering new things.

Regarding specific cards:
Pearl Diver -- I mentioned that I'd favor dropping 1 or 2 of the $2 cards.  Pearl Diver is the obvious choice.  While there are many times I'd buy it, it rarely leads to any particularly new or interesting strategies and is a card few would miss.

Native Village  -- I mentioned that I'd like to drop 1 of the 3 villages.  While I do like Native Village and it does lead to unique strategies and interactions, if I had to pick one of the 3 villages to go, this one would be my choice.  It also helps reduce the number of $2 cards.

Embargo -- Embargo seems to be a common choice in the poll, however, I'd want to keep this card.  Embargo can completely change the game and make games much more interesting.  It's probably the card that is the least automated and requires the most thought for me to play in the entire expansion.  For example, I recently had a game in which both Silver and Gold were Embargo'd early on.  It caused us to play unique strategies that I'd never play otherwise and may never play again.   While it's not the most effective card, it can be a game changer and adds a lot of play value.

Pirate Ship -- I like Pirate Ship.  It leads to unique strategies and play style and a much greater degree of player interaction than with typical cards.  Pirate Ship + ... may be the best strategy if your opponent is doing something centered on money, but may not be the best strategy if your opponent is doing something else.  Its power also varies dramatically with number of players.  Nevertheless, I voted for Pirate Ship.  It rarely works well without some kind of good enabler combined with an opponent strategy, or  with an extreme slog (Sea Hag without trashing), so it doesn't get a lot of play time.  Pirate Ship games also seem to be unpopular with a lot of players.  When I play a series of Seaside+Base games with a particular player, it often ends when we hit a Pirate Ship game. After hitting a PS game, they want to switch to different expansions.  So I'd like to keep the general PS concept, but have it implemented differently... sort of like how Thief was improved to Bandit in the base 2nd edition.

Sea Hag -- I have mixed feelings about Sea Hag.  Sea Hag is a game changing card that can lead to unique strategies. For example, I mentioned the Sea Hag / Gardens 3 pile / rush above, as well as it making Pirate Ship effective (with no trashing).   This is great.  However, it also can be annoying to have a long game with your deck full of garbage and not being able to do much.  I once had a game Sea Hag slog game that lasted ~40 turns in which my opponent and I were mostly exchanging garbage back and forth with Ambassadors.  That was the most annoying game I can recall.   I guess it depends what Sea Hag combines with in the kingdom.  Ideally there could be a similar replacement card that still led to unique and creative strategies, but was generally more enjoyable to play.

Navigator -- Navigator was a borderline card for me.  It doesn't get a lot of play time and isn't as interesting as most cards in the expansion to me.  There is minimal interaction with opponent, it's rarely a game changer, it takes time to resolve on MF (need to specify order of 5 cards in cases when don't care about order)...  it's just okay and not especially memorable.  I wouldn't miss it, if it was replaced.




« Last Edit: September 28, 2016, 04:13:36 pm by NolanA »
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JW

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #38 on: September 28, 2016, 02:55:11 pm »
+3

I also think 3 villages is high for a single expansion, particularly with the large number of cantrips, so I'd favor dropping one of the villages. 

Every ~26 card expansion has at least 3 sources of +Actions.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #39 on: September 28, 2016, 03:23:09 pm »
0

Embargo: The times when it's interesting feel very rare; quite possibly I simply overlook it
Haven: Interesting sometimes but not often, I feel
Pearl Diver: Nobody cares!
Cutpurse: I just really don't like this card
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Witherweaver

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #40 on: September 28, 2016, 03:24:26 pm »
0

Also, Explorer has to stay or our favorite inside jokememe will become obsolete. 
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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #41 on: September 28, 2016, 03:25:08 pm »
+1

Also, Explorer has to stay or our favorite inside jokememe will become obsolete.
Well scout is gone.
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #42 on: September 28, 2016, 03:28:26 pm »
+1

Also, Explorer has to stay or our favorite inside jokememe will become obsolete.
I'm sure that was Donald's first priorty when making the second editions.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #43 on: September 28, 2016, 03:32:01 pm »
0

I also think 3 villages is high for a single expansion, particularly with the large number of cantrips, so I'd favor dropping one of the villages. 

Every ~26 card expansion has at least 3 sources of +Actions.

Are you counting Throne Room?
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JW

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #44 on: September 28, 2016, 03:36:27 pm »
0

Are you counting Throne Room?

Yes, counting Throne Room and variants.

Village, Throne Room, Festival
Shanty Town, Mining Village, Nobles
Native Village, Fishing Village, Bazaar
Worker’s Village, City, King’s Court
Crossroads, Inn, Border Village
Squire, Wandering Minstrel, Procession, Ironmonger, Fortress, Bandit Camp
Coin of the Realm, Port, Royal Carriage, Lost City
Villa, Crown, City Quarter, Encampment/Plunder (half +Actions), Settlers/Bustling Village (half +Actions)
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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #45 on: September 28, 2016, 03:45:12 pm »
0

Are you counting Throne Room?

Yes, counting Throne Room and variants.

Village, Throne Room, Festival
Shanty Town, Mining Village, Nobles
Native Village, Fishing Village, Bazaar
Worker’s Village, City, King’s Court
Crossroads, Inn, Border Village
Squire, Wandering Minstrel, Procession, Ironmonger, Fortress, Bandit Camp
Coin of the Realm, Port, Royal Carriage, Lost City
Villa, Crown, City Quarter, Encampment/Plunder (half +Actions), Settlers/Bustling Village (half +Actions)

There's also Diplomat in Intrigue now. (and there used to be Tribute) :)

NolanA, I agree with a lot of what you said, but don't you dare touch Native Village. ;)
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NolanA

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #46 on: September 28, 2016, 03:59:43 pm »
0

Are you counting Throne Room?

While Throne Room can be a source of +2 Action, it has a different mechanism from how I think of a traditional "village."  The same could be said for several others in your list.  I'd be okay with a 3rd source of +2 Action (or more than +2 for FV), but I'd prefer it in a way that led to more creative and unique strategies than a typical "village" when combined with other cards from the expansion, such as Throne Room / King's Court, a conditional card that only has +2 Action under certain events or choices, etc. 
« Last Edit: September 29, 2016, 02:12:39 am by NolanA »
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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #47 on: September 28, 2016, 04:00:03 pm »
0

I once had a game Sea Hag slog game that lasted ~40 turns in which my opponent and I were mostly exchanging garbage back and forth with Ambassadors.

Just curious, what were you doing messing around with Sea Hag when there's Ambassador?
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NolanA

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #48 on: September 28, 2016, 04:07:09 pm »
0

I once had a game Sea Hag slog game that lasted ~40 turns in which my opponent and I were mostly exchanging garbage back and forth with Ambassadors.

Just curious, what were you doing messing around with Sea Hag when there's Ambassador?

The game I mentioned was one of my first ~12 games when playing the expansion, before I figured out that Ambassador alone is usually better than Sea Hag + Ambassador, so I did get a Sea Hag.  As such, I probably made some other play errors that lengthened the game.  Since that game, I've come across quite a few opponents who will buy Sea Hag + Ambassador, so I have had other slow exchanging garbage games since then... just none that extended to 40 turns.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2016, 04:23:41 pm by NolanA »
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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #49 on: September 28, 2016, 04:55:27 pm »
0

I like Explorer a lot and buy it frequently. Less than 50% of games, but still quite a bit. Much more than Chancellor et al.
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