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Author Topic: Seaside 2nd generation  (Read 18890 times)

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AdrianHealey

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Seaside 2nd generation
« on: September 28, 2016, 02:20:42 am »
+2

So, pretty easy question, right. You could answer to the follow up question asking what you think is missing from the set. For example, I just noticed there is no typical terminal 3 card draw. (Wharf is kind of, but not completely.)

Just for funzies, I am not Donald's secret second account to collect information.

I am a pretty conservative kind of a guy. At least, for this expansion it seems. Only Embargo, Pearl Diver and Navigator, I guess, have to go for me. If I had to push it, maybe Sea Hag for a slightly more interesting curser, treasure map because of it's swingyness and maybe Smugglers for the same reason. But generally, I think Seaside is pretty good. Embargo, I feel, can go because Swamphag is a better version of it. I have used embargo too many times on scout or pearl diver kind of piles, just to be able to use the terminal +$2 and never have to bother with the curses either way. Pearl Diver is just awful (and Haven is a better pearl diver anyway). Navigator, although, I guess, useful in slogs or something, has never really appealed to me. Cost relative to benefit is just insane. Maybe if it wasn't terminal.

Oh yeah, and pirate ship. Forgot about that. Ugh. Pirate ship.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2016, 02:28:16 am by AdrianHealey »
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gamesou

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2016, 02:45:56 am »
+5

I would vote for replacing nothing, except that this is not allowed.
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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2016, 03:20:59 am »
+3

I would add a Throne variant. Maybe something that turns non durations into durations.
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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2016, 04:22:53 am »
0

I'm surprised I'm the only one who voted Merchant Ship. I know it has its uses, and it's probably one of the best coins-for-one-Action deals out there (Wine Merch gives 2 then 4, Giant averages at 3, Harvest - let's not talk about Harvest). But plenty of cards give lots of coins-for-no-Actions (like uh, Gold), and even coins-for-no-Actions-nor-Cards (like the ton of Peddlers in Base 2).
Merchant Ship really wants Wharf's +Buy.
I've voted Pirate Ship, but I really like the card, so I'd rather it stay in principle - just like Great Hall and Scout did.
Otherwise, the usual drill:
Pearl Diver, Embargo (replaceable by Event - I don't feel Swampie scratches that itch, but maybe Tax will), Navigator (they can't all be the worst 4 ever, but now it might be close), maybe Sea Hag (in 3+ player games Ambassador is a junker, not a thinner, combine that with another cheap junker in the set and playing with Seaside will be like sailing on molasses), maybe Outpost. Outpost is great, actually, but I'd like to see it get a small buff.
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Mr Anderson

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2016, 05:00:18 am »
+1

I'm surprised I'm the only one who voted Merchant Ship. […] Merchant Ship really wants Wharf's +Buy.

I suppose I am the only one that voted Wharf, but just to break the trend of not releasing strictly better or worse cards than the existing ones at the same cost: remove Wharf's +buy and put it on Merchant Ship. Lookout has a less frustrating sibling (Sentry). Pearl Diver, Navigator and Pirate Ship do not seem to be controversial choices.

« Last Edit: September 28, 2016, 05:03:06 am by Mr Anderson »
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madeofghosts

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2016, 05:12:04 am »
0

Almost all the cards here I like or at least think are "interesting". Island and Lookout are tricky to use but I like them being in there. I don't even mind Pearl Diver really. I picked the only ones I never find myself buying - Smugglers, Pirate Ship and Explorer.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2016, 05:30:49 am »
0

I have bought explorer many a time. Mainly as trash for benefit fodder food supplier. Smugglers is a bit wacky, but finds it's usage.

The consensus seems that not too many cards of seaside need to be replaced.
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RevanFan

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2016, 06:45:40 am »
+1

I would add a Throne variant. Maybe something that turns non durations into durations.
That could actually work really well as a Promo, I think
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2016, 07:29:16 am »
+3

Pearl Diver is a waste of a slot. It would be good if there were more cards that interacted with the top card of the deck, but it seems like there are just as many cards where 2nd from the top is more important (Wishing Well, Herald, Magpie, Ironmonger, Patrician, Vagrant). Harbinger should be the final nail in its coffin. There are a lot of things that can be done with bottom deck effects to replace it with.

Navigator has a good concept that was done much better by Guide. I don't hate the card but it's probably ok to replace.

Embargo is really interesting but it would probably be fine as an event (though not quite as replaceable as Cache or Masterpiece)

I don't know what to make of Pirate Ship any more. I used to have a lot of fun with it but that was before I realised that trashing other people's Copper was bad. It might just be a few tweaks away or maybe another card can do the "figure out when to stop attacking and start cashing in" concept better.

Cutpurse is problematic in games with 4+ players, and its ground is pretty well covered by Taxman and Bridge Troll. It would be fine to replace.

Sea Hag deserves to be a $5 with a positive effect. If Explorer gets canned then maybe its effect could be Silver gaining on top of the deck for Symmetry (I am still surprised Bureaucrat wasn't replaced)

Lookout would be good if not for the fact you could be forced to trash a good card. A simple wording change would fix it (discard one, put one back, you may trash the rest).

Wharf really doesn't need +buy but there'd be an uproar if it was replaced.

I have no idea what people's problem with Smugglers is, other than the difficulty with tracking. Smugglers and Embargo discourage symmetrical play which is really important in Dominion.

Seaside has room for another card so I'd be interested in a revised version just so the box can be filled out. The Duration Throne Room seems like the most obvious idea. I'd also like to see a powerful card that ALWAYS misses the reshuffle (ie it has a chancellor effect) to play with that concept.
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Accatitippi

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2016, 08:12:28 am »
+1

Lookout would be good if not for the fact you could be forced to trash a good card. A simple wording change would fix it (discard one, put one back, you may trash the rest).

I think Lookout is fine if you track your deck a wee bit. It can backfire sort of badly, but in my experience it usually hurts me when I already knew it was a risky play but played it anyway. A Lookout today is much better than an Upgrade tomorrow. :)

Quote
Wharf really doesn't need +buy but there'd be an uproar if it was replaced.
Yes, I'm afraid it would be really unpopular to change Wharf. Everybody thinks it's OP, but everybody loves it anyway. (compare with Cultist and Rebuild)
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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2016, 08:29:58 am »
+6

Wharf really doesn't need +buy but there'd be an uproar if it was replaced.
Yes, I'm afraid it would be really unpopular to change Wharf. Everybody thinks it's OP, but everybody loves it anyway. (compare with Cultist and Rebuild)
It's because Wharf isn't OP in a strategy-destroying way. When Wharf is on the board, the best strategy tends to be some Wharf-powered engine, but that's OK, because there are a bunch of other cards on the board that you can look at to see what will combine best with Wharf to really make the engine fire. Cultist and Rebuild, on the other hand, tend to railroad you into strategies that make you not care about the other nine cards in the kingdom.
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Accatitippi

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2016, 08:34:14 am »
+1

Wharf really doesn't need +buy but there'd be an uproar if it was replaced.
Yes, I'm afraid it would be really unpopular to change Wharf. Everybody thinks it's OP, but everybody loves it anyway. (compare with Cultist and Rebuild)
It's because Wharf isn't OP in a strategy-destroying way. When Wharf is on the board, the best strategy tends to be some Wharf-powered engine, but that's OK, because there are a bunch of other cards on the board that you can look at to see what will combine best with Wharf to really make the engine fire. Cultist and Rebuild, on the other hand, tend to railroad you into strategies that make you not care about the other nine cards in the kingdom.

Exactly.
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Davio

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2016, 08:35:30 am »
0

I voted for Treasure Map, because I like the idea, but surely it can be implemented in a better way.

Maybe something like Rats where if you don't hit, you get another Treasure Map?
Which thematically is like some sort of clue.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2016, 08:36:38 am by Davio »
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madeofghosts

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2016, 08:42:52 am »
+1

Treasure Map is great because I can never resist buying it even on boards where it's clearly a terrible prospect.
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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2016, 09:07:42 am »
+2

Wharf really doesn't need +buy but there'd be an uproar if it was replaced.
Yes, I'm afraid it would be really unpopular to change Wharf. Everybody thinks it's OP, but everybody loves it anyway. (compare with Cultist and Rebuild)
It's because Wharf isn't OP in a strategy-destroying way. When Wharf is on the board, the best strategy tends to be some Wharf-powered engine, but that's OK, because there are a bunch of other cards on the board that you can look at to see what will combine best with Wharf to really make the engine fire. Cultist and Rebuild, on the other hand, tend to railroad you into strategies that make you not care about the other nine cards in the kingdom.

Exactly. Wharf is OP in the same way Chapel, Goons, King's Court and Scrying Pool are. They are ruthlessly strong but they do not make all the other cards obsolete.
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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2016, 09:13:40 am »
0

People should vote for treasury. It doesn't add much to the game. 3 people voting for outpost? That isn't even fair.
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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2016, 09:40:27 am »
0

I like the idea of colliding things in order to get a big payload, but don't like that it's a terminal action, or that you have to trash it. Maybe if it was a treasure that you wanted to collide with another copy... and it could cost $2 so you could always open with two of them...

sorawotobu

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2016, 10:10:00 am »
0

I like Treasure Map a lot as is and don't think you should be able to open with two. The main thing I would want to change is make Sea Hag put a Curse on your Deck without discarding the top card. On average that would make the card ever so slightly stronger but would eliminate those games that you feel like you lost just because you got your Sea Hag or your Chapel hagged.

Pearl Diver is weak and boring so it could be replaced with a real card but Seaside doesn't have the problem that Base and Intrigue had where on most boards you just don't get to do anything. One dud doesn't hurt the set too much.

Merchant Ship is boring and not the greatest card, I doubt many people would miss it.

Embargo is really cool and I wish it was good more often. It could get "When you buy this/gain this during your turn, discard your deck." That would make it much faster and more unique. When you open 5/2 with Embargo and a good 5, which is the case where you don't want Embargo buffed imo, it doesn't even make a difference (and with a 2/5 opening it actually gets worse). Since you're only playing it once anyways it could get +1 action (instead of the other change, probably not in addition to it but maybe).

Duration Throne is a great idea, could be as simple as
Quote
Captain's Cabin
4$ Action - Duration
You may play an action card from your hand. If you do, play it again at the start of your next turn.

//edit: I immediately noticed that Captain's Cabin probably shouldn't work on Durations.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2016, 10:12:20 am by sorawotobu »
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Mr Anderson

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2016, 10:12:25 am »
0

Duration Throne is a great idea, could be as simple as
Quote
Captain's Cabin
4$ Action - Duration
You may play an action card from your hand. If you do, play it again at the start of your next turn.

No, that is way too weak, pretty much just a less flexible Scheme you can only use every other turn.
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sorawotobu

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2016, 10:51:14 am »
+1

Duration Throne is a great idea, could be as simple as
Quote
Captain's Cabin
4$ Action - Duration
You may play an action card from your hand. If you do, play it again at the start of your next turn.

No, that is way too weak, pretty much just a less flexible Scheme you can only use every other turn.

There's a difference between putting the card on top of your deck and letting you play it.
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Harley_Beckett

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #20 on: September 28, 2016, 10:53:33 am »
0

The main thing I would want to change is make Sea Hag put a Curse on your Deck without discarding the top card. On average that would make the card ever so slightly stronger but would eliminate those games that you feel like you lost just because you got your Sea Hag or your Chapel hagged.

Sea Hag is designed that way for a very good reason though.  It stops the top of a player's deck getting crowded with Curses in a multiplayer, multi-Hag situation.
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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2016, 10:59:23 am »
0

The main thing I would want to change is make Sea Hag put a Curse on your Deck without discarding the top card. On average that would make the card ever so slightly stronger but would eliminate those games that you feel like you lost just because you got your Sea Hag or your Chapel hagged.

Sea Hag is designed that way for a very good reason though.  It stops the top of a player's deck getting crowded with Curses in a multiplayer, multi-Hag situation.

Good point, but it's still way more elegant if it didn't discard a random card from your deck, even if that means one more line of text.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2016, 11:05:33 am »
+4

The main thing I would want to change is make Sea Hag put a Curse on your Deck without discarding the top card. On average that would make the card ever so slightly stronger but would eliminate those games that you feel like you lost just because you got your Sea Hag or your Chapel hagged.

Sea Hag is designed that way for a very good reason though.  It stops the top of a player's deck getting crowded with Curses in a multiplayer, multi-Hag situation.

Good point, but it's still way more elegant if it didn't discard a random card from your deck, even if that means one more line of text.

A better version would be: 'Every player reveals the top cards of his deck. If it's not a curse, they gain a curse to the top of their deck.'

There, no more multiplayer horribleness.
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sorawotobu

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2016, 11:05:52 am »
0

The main thing I would want to change is make Sea Hag put a Curse on your Deck without discarding the top card. On average that would make the card ever so slightly stronger but would eliminate those games that you feel like you lost just because you got your Sea Hag or your Chapel hagged.

Sea Hag is designed that way for a very good reason though.  It stops the top of a player's deck getting crowded with Curses in a multiplayer, multi-Hag situation.

That's a good point. I generally play 4P irl and only own Seaside and Base, so most of the time it's those or those + Cornucopia. So I get a lot of Sea Hag multiplayer games (relative to the total number of games I get to play) and haven't found that Sea Hag discards Curse terrible often. And then there's Jester, which is a card that could have been balanced for multiplayer but was balanced for 2P instead (and is pretty nuts in multiplayer). Given that multiplayer games don't tend to be all that competitive I would definitely prefer cards being balanced for 2P. So the issue with Sea Hag is, would it be too unfun in multiplayer? One way to resolve that would be to let players choose whether they want to discard their top card, which is probably too stally, or have them reveal their top card and discard it if it's Curse. That's what I would go with.

//edit:

The main thing I would want to change is make Sea Hag put a Curse on your Deck without discarding the top card. On average that would make the card ever so slightly stronger but would eliminate those games that you feel like you lost just because you got your Sea Hag or your Chapel hagged.

Sea Hag is designed that way for a very good reason though.  It stops the top of a player's deck getting crowded with Curses in a multiplayer, multi-Hag situation.

Good point, but it's still way more elegant if it didn't discard a random card from your deck, even if that means one more line of text.

A better version would be: 'Every player reveals the top cards of his deck. If it's not a curse, they gain a curse to the top of their deck.'

There, no more multiplayer horribleness.

So that version wouldn't always give out a Curse. Might be ok but I think I prefer discarding Curse if it's the top card and then always putting Curse on top.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2016, 11:08:02 am by sorawotobu »
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Harley_Beckett

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2016, 11:11:01 am »
0

The main thing I would want to change is make Sea Hag put a Curse on your Deck without discarding the top card. On average that would make the card ever so slightly stronger but would eliminate those games that you feel like you lost just because you got your Sea Hag or your Chapel hagged.

Sea Hag is designed that way for a very good reason though.  It stops the top of a player's deck getting crowded with Curses in a multiplayer, multi-Hag situation.

Good point, but it's still way more elegant if it didn't discard a random card from your deck, even if that means one more line of text.

A better version would be: 'Every player reveals the top cards of his deck. If it's not a curse, they gain a curse to the top of their deck.'

There, no more multiplayer horribleness.

I like it, but if Sea Hag loses the ability to give out multiple curses per turn, it would need either a power buff (+2 coin?) or a price reduction, IMHO.
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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #25 on: September 28, 2016, 11:16:22 am »
0

The main thing I would want to change is make Sea Hag put a Curse on your Deck without discarding the top card. On average that would make the card ever so slightly stronger but would eliminate those games that you feel like you lost just because you got your Sea Hag or your Chapel hagged.

Sea Hag is designed that way for a very good reason though.  It stops the top of a player's deck getting crowded with Curses in a multiplayer, multi-Hag situation.

That's a good point. I generally play 4P irl and only own Seaside and Base, so most of the time it's those or those + Cornucopia. So I get a lot of Sea Hag multiplayer games (relative to the total number of games I get to play) and haven't found that Sea Hag discards Curse terrible often.

See, that surprises me.  In a 4P IRL game with Sea Hag, I can totally see everyone opening SH/Silver and player four getting 3 curses on top of their deck by turn four.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #26 on: September 28, 2016, 11:27:00 am »
0

It seems only pirate ship, pearl diver and navigator or getting cut

Embargo, sea hag, treasure map and explorer only if we really need to add something.

I call that: 'great succes fo seaside', good expansion.
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sorawotobu

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #27 on: September 28, 2016, 11:31:40 am »
0

The main thing I would want to change is make Sea Hag put a Curse on your Deck without discarding the top card. On average that would make the card ever so slightly stronger but would eliminate those games that you feel like you lost just because you got your Sea Hag or your Chapel hagged.

Sea Hag is designed that way for a very good reason though.  It stops the top of a player's deck getting crowded with Curses in a multiplayer, multi-Hag situation.

That's a good point. I generally play 4P irl and only own Seaside and Base, so most of the time it's those or those + Cornucopia. So I get a lot of Sea Hag multiplayer games (relative to the total number of games I get to play) and haven't found that Sea Hag discards Curse terrible often.

See, that surprises me.  In a 4P IRL game with Sea Hag, I can totally see everyone opening SH/Silver and player four getting 3 curses on top of their deck by turn four.

Maybe Sea Hag discarding Curse is just not something memorable and that's why it doesn't seem too bad to me. Most of the time only two, maybe three players out of four open with it (because of 5/2 or because of preference) and then you don't get swamped that quickly. but yeah, I think
Quote
Each other player reveals the top card of their Deck. If it's a Curse, they discard it, otherwise they put it back. Either way they gain a Curse to the top of their Deck.

would be the way to go. Solves all the problems.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #28 on: September 28, 2016, 11:43:37 am »
+2


Duration Throne is a great idea, could be as simple as
Quote
Captain's Cabin
4$ Action - Duration
You may play an action card from your hand. If you do, play it again at the start of your next turn.

//edit: I immediately noticed that Captain's Cabin probably shouldn't work on Durations.

Donald tried that exact card already and nixed it. It's in the secret histories somewhere.

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #29 on: September 28, 2016, 11:50:37 am »
0

I would vote for replacing nothing, except that this is not allowed.

This.

If I absolutely were forced to cut one, it would be Pearl Diver.
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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #30 on: September 28, 2016, 12:24:42 pm »
0


Duration Throne is a great idea, could be as simple as
Quote
Captain's Cabin
4$ Action - Duration
You may play an action card from your hand. If you do, play it again at the start of your next turn.

//edit: I immediately noticed that Captain's Cabin probably shouldn't work on Durations.

Donald tried that exact card already and nixed it. It's in the secret histories somewhere.

"a cute card that was just so awful", "both confusing and weak"

(That said, I've never really seen what's so bad about allowing it to work on Durations.)
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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #31 on: September 28, 2016, 12:26:23 pm »
0

(That said, I've never really seen what's so bad about allowing it to work on Durations.)

(well, maybe Archive)
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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #32 on: September 28, 2016, 12:41:39 pm »
0

I would vote for replacing nothing, except that this is not allowed.

This.

If I absolutely were forced to cut one, it would be Pearl Diver.

Same. Navigator is a close second, but I've used it in games.

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #33 on: September 28, 2016, 01:11:29 pm »
0

I now want to play a long string of Captain's Cabins and see just how many Actions I can auto-play at the start of the following turn.
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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #34 on: September 28, 2016, 01:13:13 pm »
0

I now want to play a long string of Captain's Cabins and see just how many Actions I can auto-play at the start of the following turn.

We already have that card.  It's called Prince.
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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #35 on: September 28, 2016, 01:29:22 pm »
+1

Pearl Diver and Navigator.

PD just isn't compelling in what it adds to a given kingdom.  Buff it by allowing the revealed card to either go on top of the deck or the discard pile.  Then you actually get to dive for a different pearl each play rather than revealing Estate on your first play and then getting no benefit from your next 3 played that hand.

Navigator is simply outclassed as a $4-cost card. especially with Scavenger giving more options for what goes on top and better cycling power.  Make it $3 or give it a little buff and it stays imo.
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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #36 on: September 28, 2016, 01:52:38 pm »
0

What I'd Replace;

Pearl Diver:

Nuff said, moving on. It sucks and adds almost nothing to the game. There shouldn't be cards that you only get when you never need something else.
Reason to axe: You only get it over nothing.

Lookout:

This is a tricky one. It's okay, but I don't like playing it. It's too risky late-game and I hate the feeling of trashing/skipping my good cards.
Reason to axe: It's not fun.

Navigator:

It's cool, and has its uses, but it has the same pitfall as scout. Too weak. A better version at or weaker at would be fine, but for now it's just a boting old terminal .
Reason to axe: Too weak.

Sea Hag:
I'd just want this redone at . Donald's already said enough on the issue.
Reason to axe: Too degenerate on games.

Explorer:
Ignoring the meme, I do think this is too weak, and boring to boot. There are so many ways to tweak this concept but this just doesn't seem to work out. Collision realted cards are generally frowned upon, and Gold and Silver are overrated.
Reason to axe: Hasn't aged well.

Outpost:
Kinda an unpopular opinion potion, but outpost should be axed. It's too wonky and somebody else taking another turn is annoying for begginers. The whole clean-up thing is annoying too. like most of the Seaside cards, I'd be up for it being replaced with something simmilar-ish though.
Reason to axe: Too wonky and annoying for the good it does.
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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #37 on: September 28, 2016, 02:41:41 pm »
+3

As a whole, I think Seaside does a much better job with card selection that the original Base cards.  If I play a few dozen games with just Seaside + Base, I'm probably going to buy every Seaside card multiple times.  All Seaside cards have a reasonably likely scenario where they are helpful.  However, there are several Base cards that I'm probably not going to play in any of the dozens of games.  All of these low play value Base cards were removed in the 2nd edition.  As a whole, I think Seaside is a good expansion that really enhances the game.  That said, there are some things I think could be improved.

Looking at the Seaside cards as a whole, one of the first thing that stands out to me is the large number of $2 cards and lack of any cards $6+ cards.  The wiki mentions this was intentional to balance out Prosperity.  Now that there are more expansions, balancing out Prosperity is probably not as important, so I'd favor having the card costs more similar to other expansions -- dropping 1 or 2 of the $2 cards, and adding a $6+ card.   I also think 3 villages is high for a single expansion, particularly with the large number of cantrips, so I'd favor dropping one of the villages. 

Most of the cards also have relatively straightforward implementations, leading to straightforward strategies that are often quite similar to Base.  It's rare for me to stumble across a unique strategy that I had never considered, yet is very powerful, or cards that combo in special and powerful way that I had not considered.  This reduces how much long term pleasure I get from the expansion by discovering new things. Compared to base, many cards play well with blunt strategies, such as buying as many as possible.  For example, bluntly buying a large number of Wharfs, Ghost Ships, Light Houses, or Fishing Villages is usually going to work out a lot better than buying a lot of Smithy/Council/Library, Militia, Moat, or Villages. Along the same lines, there are fewer good, less common strategy enablers, such as Rush enablers and Gardens enablers, although Swamp Hag + Gardens can be an interesting and effective 3 Pile / Rush type game.  I'd favor a larger portion of cards with unique and less obvious interactions that require more finesse to play effectively, and give more long term play value from discovering new things.

Regarding specific cards:
Pearl Diver -- I mentioned that I'd favor dropping 1 or 2 of the $2 cards.  Pearl Diver is the obvious choice.  While there are many times I'd buy it, it rarely leads to any particularly new or interesting strategies and is a card few would miss.

Native Village  -- I mentioned that I'd like to drop 1 of the 3 villages.  While I do like Native Village and it does lead to unique strategies and interactions, if I had to pick one of the 3 villages to go, this one would be my choice.  It also helps reduce the number of $2 cards.

Embargo -- Embargo seems to be a common choice in the poll, however, I'd want to keep this card.  Embargo can completely change the game and make games much more interesting.  It's probably the card that is the least automated and requires the most thought for me to play in the entire expansion.  For example, I recently had a game in which both Silver and Gold were Embargo'd early on.  It caused us to play unique strategies that I'd never play otherwise and may never play again.   While it's not the most effective card, it can be a game changer and adds a lot of play value.

Pirate Ship -- I like Pirate Ship.  It leads to unique strategies and play style and a much greater degree of player interaction than with typical cards.  Pirate Ship + ... may be the best strategy if your opponent is doing something centered on money, but may not be the best strategy if your opponent is doing something else.  Its power also varies dramatically with number of players.  Nevertheless, I voted for Pirate Ship.  It rarely works well without some kind of good enabler combined with an opponent strategy, or  with an extreme slog (Sea Hag without trashing), so it doesn't get a lot of play time.  Pirate Ship games also seem to be unpopular with a lot of players.  When I play a series of Seaside+Base games with a particular player, it often ends when we hit a Pirate Ship game. After hitting a PS game, they want to switch to different expansions.  So I'd like to keep the general PS concept, but have it implemented differently... sort of like how Thief was improved to Bandit in the base 2nd edition.

Sea Hag -- I have mixed feelings about Sea Hag.  Sea Hag is a game changing card that can lead to unique strategies. For example, I mentioned the Sea Hag / Gardens 3 pile / rush above, as well as it making Pirate Ship effective (with no trashing).   This is great.  However, it also can be annoying to have a long game with your deck full of garbage and not being able to do much.  I once had a game Sea Hag slog game that lasted ~40 turns in which my opponent and I were mostly exchanging garbage back and forth with Ambassadors.  That was the most annoying game I can recall.   I guess it depends what Sea Hag combines with in the kingdom.  Ideally there could be a similar replacement card that still led to unique and creative strategies, but was generally more enjoyable to play.

Navigator -- Navigator was a borderline card for me.  It doesn't get a lot of play time and isn't as interesting as most cards in the expansion to me.  There is minimal interaction with opponent, it's rarely a game changer, it takes time to resolve on MF (need to specify order of 5 cards in cases when don't care about order)...  it's just okay and not especially memorable.  I wouldn't miss it, if it was replaced.




« Last Edit: September 28, 2016, 04:13:36 pm by NolanA »
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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #38 on: September 28, 2016, 02:55:11 pm »
+3

I also think 3 villages is high for a single expansion, particularly with the large number of cantrips, so I'd favor dropping one of the villages. 

Every ~26 card expansion has at least 3 sources of +Actions.
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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #39 on: September 28, 2016, 03:23:09 pm »
0

Embargo: The times when it's interesting feel very rare; quite possibly I simply overlook it
Haven: Interesting sometimes but not often, I feel
Pearl Diver: Nobody cares!
Cutpurse: I just really don't like this card
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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #40 on: September 28, 2016, 03:24:26 pm »
0

Also, Explorer has to stay or our favorite inside jokememe will become obsolete. 
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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #41 on: September 28, 2016, 03:25:08 pm »
+1

Also, Explorer has to stay or our favorite inside jokememe will become obsolete.
Well scout is gone.
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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #42 on: September 28, 2016, 03:28:26 pm »
+1

Also, Explorer has to stay or our favorite inside jokememe will become obsolete.
I'm sure that was Donald's first priorty when making the second editions.
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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #43 on: September 28, 2016, 03:32:01 pm »
0

I also think 3 villages is high for a single expansion, particularly with the large number of cantrips, so I'd favor dropping one of the villages. 

Every ~26 card expansion has at least 3 sources of +Actions.

Are you counting Throne Room?
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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #44 on: September 28, 2016, 03:36:27 pm »
0

Are you counting Throne Room?

Yes, counting Throne Room and variants.

Village, Throne Room, Festival
Shanty Town, Mining Village, Nobles
Native Village, Fishing Village, Bazaar
Worker’s Village, City, King’s Court
Crossroads, Inn, Border Village
Squire, Wandering Minstrel, Procession, Ironmonger, Fortress, Bandit Camp
Coin of the Realm, Port, Royal Carriage, Lost City
Villa, Crown, City Quarter, Encampment/Plunder (half +Actions), Settlers/Bustling Village (half +Actions)
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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #45 on: September 28, 2016, 03:45:12 pm »
0

Are you counting Throne Room?

Yes, counting Throne Room and variants.

Village, Throne Room, Festival
Shanty Town, Mining Village, Nobles
Native Village, Fishing Village, Bazaar
Worker’s Village, City, King’s Court
Crossroads, Inn, Border Village
Squire, Wandering Minstrel, Procession, Ironmonger, Fortress, Bandit Camp
Coin of the Realm, Port, Royal Carriage, Lost City
Villa, Crown, City Quarter, Encampment/Plunder (half +Actions), Settlers/Bustling Village (half +Actions)

There's also Diplomat in Intrigue now. (and there used to be Tribute) :)

NolanA, I agree with a lot of what you said, but don't you dare touch Native Village. ;)
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NolanA

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #46 on: September 28, 2016, 03:59:43 pm »
0

Are you counting Throne Room?

While Throne Room can be a source of +2 Action, it has a different mechanism from how I think of a traditional "village."  The same could be said for several others in your list.  I'd be okay with a 3rd source of +2 Action (or more than +2 for FV), but I'd prefer it in a way that led to more creative and unique strategies than a typical "village" when combined with other cards from the expansion, such as Throne Room / King's Court, a conditional card that only has +2 Action under certain events or choices, etc. 
« Last Edit: September 29, 2016, 02:12:39 am by NolanA »
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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #47 on: September 28, 2016, 04:00:03 pm »
0

I once had a game Sea Hag slog game that lasted ~40 turns in which my opponent and I were mostly exchanging garbage back and forth with Ambassadors.

Just curious, what were you doing messing around with Sea Hag when there's Ambassador?
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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #48 on: September 28, 2016, 04:07:09 pm »
0

I once had a game Sea Hag slog game that lasted ~40 turns in which my opponent and I were mostly exchanging garbage back and forth with Ambassadors.

Just curious, what were you doing messing around with Sea Hag when there's Ambassador?

The game I mentioned was one of my first ~12 games when playing the expansion, before I figured out that Ambassador alone is usually better than Sea Hag + Ambassador, so I did get a Sea Hag.  As such, I probably made some other play errors that lengthened the game.  Since that game, I've come across quite a few opponents who will buy Sea Hag + Ambassador, so I have had other slow exchanging garbage games since then... just none that extended to 40 turns.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2016, 04:23:41 pm by NolanA »
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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #49 on: September 28, 2016, 04:55:27 pm »
0

I like Explorer a lot and buy it frequently. Less than 50% of games, but still quite a bit. Much more than Chancellor et al.
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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #50 on: September 28, 2016, 04:57:05 pm »
0

I like Explorer a lot and buy it frequently. Less than 50% of games, but still quite a bit. Much more than Chancellor et al.

Salvager, remodel, transmogrify, mercenary, apprentice, ... are just a few reasons to get it. I don't get why people don't use it: a free gainer of excellent trash for benefit stuff, that you get to your hand?
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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #51 on: September 28, 2016, 04:58:34 pm »
+1

I like Explorer a lot and buy it frequently. Less than 50% of games, but still quite a bit. Much more than Chancellor et al.
I don't get why people don't use it
Because gold sucks.
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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #52 on: September 28, 2016, 05:04:36 pm »
+1

The vanilla card has no votes, that's bazzar.
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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #53 on: September 28, 2016, 05:12:36 pm »
0

I like Explorer a lot and buy it frequently. Less than 50% of games, but still quite a bit. Much more than Chancellor et al.
I don't get why people don't use it
Because gold sucks.

Better than silver, though.
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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #54 on: September 28, 2016, 05:13:36 pm »
0

Explorer is especially great in Feudal Japan.  So many coins...
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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #55 on: September 28, 2016, 05:19:12 pm »
+3

I like Explorer a lot and buy it frequently. Less than 50% of games, but still quite a bit. Much more than Chancellor et al.
I don't get why people don't use it
Because gold sucks.

Buying Gold sucks. Gaining it can be great, depending on the circumstances.
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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #56 on: September 28, 2016, 05:28:27 pm »
0

I like Explorer a lot and buy it frequently. Less than 50% of games, but still quite a bit. Much more than Chancellor et al.
I don't get why people don't use it
Because gold sucks.
Buying Gold sucks. Gaining it can be great, depending on the circumstances.
You still have to buy explorer.
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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #57 on: September 28, 2016, 05:51:08 pm »
+1

I like Explorer a lot and buy it frequently. Less than 50% of games, but still quite a bit. Much more than Chancellor et al.
I don't get why people don't use it
Because gold sucks.
Buying Gold sucks. Gaining it can be great, depending on the circumstances.
You still have to buy explorer.

And play it. Still, one Explorer will gain you several Golds and Silvers (which you also sometimes want to gain).

Again, I'm not claiming Explorer is strong. I'm just saying it's within the acceptable range of narrow cards. And it provides gameplay by making you want to match it up with Province.
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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #58 on: September 28, 2016, 06:03:36 pm »
+2

People should vote for treasury. It doesn't add much to the game. 3 people voting for outpost? That isn't even fair.

Treasury is probably my favourite Peddler variant
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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #59 on: September 28, 2016, 06:09:11 pm »
0

Explorer without the Gold gaining would be in the "too good for $4, too weak for $5" category, and Gold gaining is a nice way to step it up.

It strikes me as the kind of card that needs to exist even if it's not particularly strong or outlandish. If it was in the base set nobody would question it.
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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #60 on: September 28, 2016, 06:14:29 pm »
0

Explorer without the Gold gaining would be in the "too good for $4, too weak for $5" category, and Gold gaining is a nice way to step it up.

It strikes me as the kind of card that needs to exist even if it's not particularly strong or outlandish. If it was in the base set nobody would question it.
I wouldn't buy that "two good for 4" card a lot of the time.
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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #61 on: September 28, 2016, 10:48:15 pm »
+2

I voted for everything because I could.
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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #62 on: September 28, 2016, 11:16:24 pm »
+6

I voted for everything because I could.
Dude, because if all the cards were replaced and you already have the original Seaside, it would be like a new expansion. nice.

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #63 on: September 28, 2016, 11:56:50 pm »
+2

Explorer without the Gold gaining would be in the "too good for $4, too weak for $5" category, and Gold gaining is a nice way to step it up.

It strikes me as the kind of card that needs to exist even if it's not particularly strong or outlandish. If it was in the base set nobody would question it.

I feel like you're trying to say that it may not be superior to every other card, but really every card cannot be the most superior one, so it's alright.
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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #64 on: September 29, 2016, 07:30:43 am »
+1

From a Kingdom designers POV, Embargo can be a neat way of nerfing a powerful but monolithic strategy on a board. If there is a fairly strong engine, do you really want to go Rebuild and gain at least 4 Curses? Plus it can also make keeping your strategy secret a while longer useful. I like when it matters if your opponent can't figure out your strategy right away.
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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #65 on: September 29, 2016, 10:57:51 am »
0

I don't understand all the hate for Lookout. It's a non-terminal trasher. Two of them can thin a deck quite nicely, and by the time you get the unfortunate reveal of three cards you want to keep, well, it's obviously done it's job! Totally worth it.

I can think of plenty of times when a kingdom has had no trashers, or not enough terminal space, when a Lookout would have been the best thing ever. I almost always buy it unless there's a trash-two.

Plus, the topdeck and discard are enablers for other cards like Tunnel and Mystic.
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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #66 on: September 29, 2016, 12:11:25 pm »
0

The cards that are bad in Seaside are bad because they are too good. Pirate Ship. Ambassador. Wharf. The weaklings don't worry me. Well, maybe Navigator, but all the other cards have their place. And yes, this absolutely includes Pirate Ship.
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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #67 on: September 29, 2016, 12:28:49 pm »
+2

From a Kingdom designers POV, Embargo can be a neat way of nerfing a powerful but monolithic strategy on a board. If there is a fairly strong engine, do you really want to go Rebuild and gain at least 4 Curses? Plus it can also make keeping your strategy secret a while longer useful. I like when it matters if your opponent can't figure out your strategy right away.

This is precisely why I like embargo. Oh Cultist is on the board? I'm going to open double embargo and kill it. (Also, works with any other card that I dislike for producing single card strategies.)

Chris is me

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #68 on: September 29, 2016, 12:29:45 pm »
0

The cards that are bad in Seaside are bad because they are too good. Pirate Ship. Ambassador. Wharf. The weaklings don't worry me. Well, maybe Navigator, but all the other cards have their place. And yes, this absolutely includes Pirate Ship.

Pirate Ship isn't too good by any stretch, even in 4P where it's more likely to hit. It still takes at least X plays to be a terminal worth X coins, and in the early game it still mostly trashes Copper.
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Aleimon Thimble

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #69 on: September 29, 2016, 01:35:06 pm »
+1

From a Kingdom designers POV, Embargo can be a neat way of nerfing a powerful but monolithic strategy on a board. If there is a fairly strong engine, do you really want to go Rebuild and gain at least 4 Curses? Plus it can also make keeping your strategy secret a while longer useful. I like when it matters if your opponent can't figure out your strategy right away.

I agree. Sometimes there's a backdoor though. I recently Embargoed Cultists twice, and my opponent responded a few turns later by Stonemasoning for 2 Cultists. Ouch.
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timchen

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #70 on: September 29, 2016, 02:30:11 pm »
0

hmm. Seems more people dislike Navigator than Explorer. I don't understand.

Navigator is pretty weak, but I think it's choice-to-cycle ability is decent in quite some situations. It can certainly cost $3 but I don't feel there is a significant difference between $3 and $4 anyways. Maybe the worst aspect is that it is a terminal so one might want to think it does nothing when you choose not to discard, and it does not provide as much utility to other cards that care about the content of the deck. I feel that is actually not against the card though, because it makes the card more situational.

On the other hand I feel explorer is a card I care less of. It is almost a vanilla silver gainer. That itself is fine for its power level, just I feel it is a bit boring. The collide-with-Province ability I feel is very situational since except with TfB mostly when you want gold you cannot make them reliably collide. Then it almost make this card a vanilla silver gainer + 1 trick pony. In general I am just not a fan of a very special effect that only has one usage.

I voted for pearl diver, haven, and explorer.

Pretty funny, they all appeared in a puzzle I did a few years back, which I am still proud of the solution.
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trivialknot

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Re: Seaside 2nd generation
« Reply #71 on: September 29, 2016, 02:33:38 pm »
+2

From a Kingdom designers POV, Embargo can be a neat way of nerfing a powerful but monolithic strategy on a board. If there is a fairly strong engine, do you really want to go Rebuild and gain at least 4 Curses? Plus it can also make keeping your strategy secret a while longer useful. I like when it matters if your opponent can't figure out your strategy right away.
Unfortunately, Embargo vs Rebuild is not a very good strategy.  In general, embargo is good against strategies that commit themselves, things that your opponent will have trouble backing out of.  Rebuild fits the bill, but the problem is, they really aren't buying that many Rebuilds after they've committed.  In a non-mirror, the Rebuild player needs 2 duchies and 8 plays of rebuild.  4 Curses is pretty optimistic.

Furthermore, remember that the Rebuild player can embargo you right back.  Embargo is a decent card for the Rebuild player, since it gives something to buy on <$5 hands, helps them hit $5, and then removes itself from the deck, leaving more space to play Rebuild.  Also, Province is an excellent target for Embargo, since the Rebuild player never buys them directly.
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