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Author Topic: New shuffling rule  (Read 21230 times)

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ConMan

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Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #50 on: September 29, 2016, 07:13:24 pm »
+4

Are we getting back into this debate? Do we need to discuss if it's possible to shuffle a single Stash?
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chipperMDW

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Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #51 on: September 30, 2016, 05:09:13 pm »
0

If you use Apprentice to trash Scrying Pool, is that +{1+1+2} Cards?  Or +{2+2} Cards?  Or just +4 Cards?
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GendoIkari

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Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #52 on: September 30, 2016, 05:28:57 pm »
0

If you use Apprentice to trash Scrying Pool, is that +{1+1+2} Cards?  Or +{2+2} Cards?  Or just +4 Cards?

+4 cards I assume. But that's going with the non-literal interpretation of Apprentice as "Potion counts as 2 coins for the purposes of calculating how many cards you draw".
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Witherweaver

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Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #53 on: September 30, 2016, 05:31:33 pm »
+1

If you use Apprentice to trash Scrying Pool, is that +{1+1+2} Cards?  Or +{2+2} Cards?  Or just +4 Cards?

+4 cards I assume. But that's going with the non-literal interpretation of Apprentice as "Potion counts as 2 coins for the purposes of calculating how many cards you draw".

I think I'd disagree.  Seems like you do +X cards  or +1 + 1 + ...  +1 (X times) where X is the coin cost, and then do +2 Cards if there is a P.
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GendoIkari

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Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #54 on: September 30, 2016, 05:43:23 pm »
+1

If you use Apprentice to trash Scrying Pool, is that +{1+1+2} Cards?  Or +{2+2} Cards?  Or just +4 Cards?

+4 cards I assume. But that's going with the non-literal interpretation of Apprentice as "Potion counts as 2 coins for the purposes of calculating how many cards you draw".

I think I'd disagree.  Seems like you do +X cards  or +1 + 1 + ...  +1 (X times) where X is the coin cost, and then do +2 Cards if there is a P.

Well I don't think +1+1+2 is an option at all; the first "+1 card per in its cost" is a single instruction, and you clearly know how many cards you'll be accessing before you start. No reason to treat it different than +3 cards.

Because the +2 Cards is a separate instruction, you could make an argument for it not being part of the same draw. And as literally worded, that's true. But here's a case where the literal wording doesn't match the clear intent of the card, and until the new shuffle rule, there were no functional differences between the wording and the intent.
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Witherweaver

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Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #55 on: September 30, 2016, 05:45:48 pm »
+1

If you use Apprentice to trash Scrying Pool, is that +{1+1+2} Cards?  Or +{2+2} Cards?  Or just +4 Cards?

+4 cards I assume. But that's going with the non-literal interpretation of Apprentice as "Potion counts as 2 coins for the purposes of calculating how many cards you draw".

I think I'd disagree.  Seems like you do +X cards  or +1 + 1 + ...  +1 (X times) where X is the coin cost, and then do +2 Cards if there is a P.

Well I don't think +1+1+2 is an option at all; the first "+1 card per in its cost" is a single instruction, and you clearly know how many cards you'll be accessing before you start. No reason to treat it different than +3 cards.

Because the +2 Cards is a separate instruction, you could make an argument for it not being part of the same draw. And as literally worded, that's true. But here's a case where the literal wording doesn't match the clear intent of the card, and until the new shuffle rule, there were no functional differences between the wording and the intent.

I agree on the first I think.  I'd still say it's +X then +2 and not +(X+2).  Unless Apprentice itself gets a rewording. 

Edit: It's not clear to me that "potion counts as two coins for the purposes of calculating how many cards you draw" is necessarily the clear intent.  In  a proposed 2PP card (costs is 2 coins plus 2 P), Apprentice as-is draws 4, your intent looks like it would imply 6.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2016, 05:48:09 pm by Witherweaver »
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Donald X.

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Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #56 on: September 30, 2016, 06:17:32 pm »
+4

If you use Apprentice to trash Scrying Pool, is that +{1+1+2} Cards?  Or +{2+2} Cards?  Or just +4 Cards?
+2, +2. "+1 Card per" is a big lump of drawing cards; the separate sentence is separate.

If it's sufficiently important to people we can not reprint Stash. I am confident that the new shuffling rule is better than the old one. I don't mind people venting, but whatever, that's the new shuffling rule, the rulebooks are printed and shipped to distributors; there will be no recall. Lots of people have been using that method for years and it has produced no questions. My feeling was, if Stash got messed up, that was worth it. It's just Stash. How many games will somebody Apprentice a Scrying Pool, triggering a shuffle where the number of cards drawn at once matters due to Stash? It's just poking at the rules, not actually having games messed up.

Incidentally the -1 Card token stuff isn't relevant to this; you can already ask those questions with no Stash and the old rule (no cards left in deck, -1 Card token, told to draw a card, do you shuffle).

I do not think there is a reasonable way to phrase Stash that lets you look at the cards, but Stash hasn't been reprinted with a new phrasing yet, so you-all are welcome to take a shot at it.
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GendoIkari

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Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #57 on: September 30, 2016, 11:28:01 pm »
0

Poking at the rules is what we do best! I'm willing to bet that even if Stash didn't exist, you'd be getting all these same questions, because man, people want to know.
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werothegreat

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Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #58 on: October 01, 2016, 01:43:08 am »
+1

I would rather live with the fact that Stash can sometimes show up before the rest of the cards remaining in a pre-shuffle draw deck, then go without Stash.  Scavenger needs his friend.
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chipperMDW

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Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #59 on: October 01, 2016, 03:25:00 am »
0

Incidentally the -1 Card token stuff isn't relevant to this; you can already ask those questions with no Stash and the old rule (no cards left in deck, -1 Card token, told to draw a card, do you shuffle).

Sure, but it seems like the answers to those questions could easily have changed under the new rule.  Or at least there were multiple ways they could have "stayed the same."


If it's sufficiently important to people we can not reprint Stash.

I'm poking at the rules, but that's not because I think they're causing problems; that's just because I like rules.  So it's definitely not sufficiently important to me.  I'd prefer Stash stick around.  (Of course my other "deprecated" cards aren't actually going to go away, so neither would Stash. ;D)

I liked Haddock's wording for it.  It's both precise and concise:

When you shuffle this, put this anywhere among the shuffled cards.


And, uh, I guess you can't answer anything about this, so I'll just wonder aloud.  You mentioned reprinting Stash and it makes me wonder in what form we might see promo cards reprinted.  Or maybe you already said and I missed it.
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Donald X.

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Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #60 on: October 01, 2016, 03:38:25 am »
+3

I liked Haddock's wording for it.  It's both precise and concise:

When you shuffle this, put this anywhere among the shuffled cards.
Note that this does not make Stash function like it used to (letting you see the cards not being shuffled), or make it cease to matter if your draw-4 was 2+2 or what.

And, uh, I guess you can't answer anything about this, so I'll just wonder aloud.  You mentioned reprinting Stash and it makes me wonder in what form we might see promo cards reprinted.  Or maybe you already said and I missed it.
Currently there are no plans to change how English promos are distributed; RGG gives them to BGG to support BGG, and BGG sells them (and then sometimes they're available other ways briefly, and foreign publishers have a lot of leeway in terms of how they give theirs out). RGG doesn't want to e.g. sell a box of promos, because then he'd no longer be supporting BGG with them. For all I know that may change someday, but it has not changed yet.

They get printed up as "needed." Apparently Black Market is sold out so that one might be first to get a new printing. I don't know when that stuff will happen though, or if Black Market is actually next in line or what (after the new one). One day, and it will be a surprise, I will find out that now some subset of the new images are being made and I will proofread them and all that. Black Market will be a lot better-phrased, saying you can play treasures and stuff. Envoy won't say "draw." You know. Whatever good improvements, like any expansion getting this treatment. And so Stash, it will get a new wording too, trying to be a good one.

As it stands that wording is similar to Haddock's, meaning it does not preserve the ability to peek at those cards, meaning it in turn creates rules questions for certain card-drawers.
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chipperMDW

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Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #61 on: October 01, 2016, 04:34:47 am »
0

I liked Haddock's wording for it.  It's both precise and concise:

When you shuffle this, put this anywhere among the shuffled cards.
Note that this does not make Stash function like it used to (letting you see the cards not being shuffled), or make it cease to matter if your draw-4 was 2+2 or what.

If you really want that...

Quote
While this is in your discard pile, if you would draw, reveal, or look at a number of cards from some location in your deck greater than 1 and greater than the number of cards in your deck, instead do the following that many times: perform that operation on one card from that location in your deck, then look at the top card of the trash (so they're really separate operations).

or

Quote
In games using this, if you would shuffle this, instead use the 1st edition shuffle rules.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2016, 04:47:23 am by chipperMDW »
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Donald X.

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Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #62 on: October 01, 2016, 07:24:39 am »
+8

If you really want that...
Well, I'm just saying. I don't have it and so far that's why it's not happening.

Quote
In games using this, if you would shuffle this, instead use the 1st edition shuffle rules.
Now you're talking. We can get that shorter though.

In games using this, it's 2008. It's okay that this card is marked.
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Watno

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Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #63 on: October 01, 2016, 07:59:31 am »
+3

Lots of people have been using that method for years and it has produced no questions.
I have never seen anyone count their draw pile everytime they draw, then potentially shuffle the discard, lift up the draw pile, then place the shuffled discard under it. I also can't imagine anyone actually doing this. What people might do is start drawing cards, not make use of their ability to look at their hand before shuflling the discard, then continue drawing. Maybe they even set aside some cards instead of starting to draw, but still the cards are not part of the draw pile any more when they shuffle (you might argue that they are not drawn yet either, but they're definitely no in the draw pile)
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GendoIkari

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Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #64 on: October 01, 2016, 10:23:51 am »
+1

Lots of people have been using that method for years and it has produced no questions.
I have never seen anyone count their draw pile everytime they draw, then potentially shuffle the discard, lift up the draw pile, then place the shuffled discard under it. I also can't imagine anyone actually doing this. What people might do is start drawing cards, not make use of their ability to look at their hand before shuflling the discard, then continue drawing. Maybe they even set aside some cards instead of starting to draw, but still the cards are not part of the draw pile any more when they shuffle (you might argue that they are not drawn yet either, but they're definitely no in the draw pile)

I always look at the so-far drawn cards before shuffling, for reasons of anticipation (oh my first 4 cards for next turn contain 2 terminals, will my 5th be a Village? C'mon,Village!)
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Donald X.

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Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #65 on: October 01, 2016, 05:03:08 pm »
0

Lots of people have been using that method for years and it has produced no questions.
I have never seen anyone count their draw pile everytime they draw, then potentially shuffle the discard, lift up the draw pile, then place the shuffled discard under it. I also can't imagine anyone actually doing this. What people might do is start drawing cards, not make use of their ability to look at their hand before shuflling the discard, then continue drawing. Maybe they even set aside some cards instead of starting to draw, but still the cards are not part of the draw pile any more when they shuffle (you might argue that they are not drawn yet either, but they're definitely no in the draw pile)
I'm not sure why you're saying that as a reply to me.

No-one counts their draw pile when playing Smithy, and no-one has to; but everyone every time counts the cards they're taking, because that's how you draw 3 cards as opposed to any other number. And when the draw pile didn't have 3, they've counted it. I have seen multiple people see that it's not 3, shuffle the rest without having added the 1-2 cards to their hand, actually how in the world he must be making this up stick the 1-2 cards on top, then draw. I don't know where they got the idea; it was nothing to do with me.

I am sure lots of people will not move the cards to the deck top when the thing being done is drawing, since usually it's obviously not necessary. More people perhaps will not instantly add the cards to their hand, which would be great, since adding them instantly to your hand increases the chance you will forget how many you've drawn already (historically I have put them on the Smithy). The big thing though is, that when it's something trickier, it's handled.
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Watno

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Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #66 on: October 01, 2016, 07:02:44 pm »
0

Lots of people have been using that method for years and it has produced no questions.
I have never seen anyone count their draw pile everytime they draw, then potentially shuffle the discard, lift up the draw pile, then place the shuffled discard under it. I also can't imagine anyone actually doing this. What people might do is start drawing cards, not make use of their ability to look at their hand before shuflling the discard, then continue drawing. Maybe they even set aside some cards instead of starting to draw, but still the cards are not part of the draw pile any more when they shuffle (you might argue that they are not drawn yet either, but they're definitely no in the draw pile)
I'm not sure why you're saying that as a reply to me.
You claimed that lots of people were already using the new rules, which require you to do waht I described (including putting the shuffled cards under the rest of your draw pile), I stated my doubts about that.

I'm pretty sure people will find it ridiculous when I actually follow the new rules.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2016, 07:04:01 pm by Watno »
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Donald X.

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Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #67 on: October 01, 2016, 08:49:17 pm »
+1

You claimed that lots of people were already using the new rules, which require you to do waht I described (including putting the shuffled cards under the rest of your draw pile), I stated my doubts about that.

I'm pretty sure people will find it ridiculous when I actually follow the new rules.
The new rules do not at any point tell you to count how many cards are in your deck.

I have actually seen multiple people, not instructed by me or the rulebook to do so, put the non-shuffled cards on the shuffled cards before drawing.
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Witherweaver

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Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #68 on: October 01, 2016, 08:50:21 pm »
0

You claimed that lots of people were already using the new rules, which require you to do waht I described (including putting the shuffled cards under the rest of your draw pile), I stated my doubts about that.

I'm pretty sure people will find it ridiculous when I actually follow the new rules.
The new rules do not at any point tell you to count how many cards are in your deck.

I have actually seen multiple people, not instructed by me or the rulebook to do so, put the non-shuffled cards on the shuffled cards before drawing.

Some people just march to the beat of their own drum.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #69 on: October 01, 2016, 11:52:02 pm »
0

If Stash is being opened up again, would it be worth giving it a slight buff, especially now one of its enablers is out of print?
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Donald X.

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Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #70 on: October 02, 2016, 01:52:16 am »
+2

If Stash is being opened up again, would it be worth giving it a slight buff, especially now one of its enablers is out of print?
I can't give it a buff. It can change in functionality very mildly ala Moneylender, and can either be a victim of the rules change or change to preserve itself, but getting +1 Buy or whatever is out of the question.
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Donald X.

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Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #71 on: October 03, 2016, 12:00:48 am »
+5

It looks like I can phrase Stash in a way that preserves its old functionality after all.
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Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #72 on: October 03, 2016, 05:26:44 am »
0

It looks like I can phrase Stash in a way that preserves its old functionality after all.
Cool.

Fwiw, my intended wording was made assuming that you WANTED the functionality to change with the new shuffling rules.  (Or that you weren't bothered if it did change.)  It was only to deal with the potential "can I actually topdeck my Stash onto the bit of my deck I'm not shuffling" issue.

It's hardly a significant deal either way, however we want it to be done.  Interested to see what the new wording that preserves the functionality might be, I haven't thought much about it.
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Jeebus

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Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #73 on: October 12, 2016, 10:48:19 am »
0

Here's a question. Will the new online platform have all the cards with the unpublished new wordings? For instance Stash or Embargo which will be functionally, albeit subtly, different... In the other thread it seemed like an Embargo rules question for the online platform was based on the new wording that hasn't been published.

Donald X.

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Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #74 on: October 12, 2016, 03:51:14 pm »
+2

Here's a question. Will the new online platform have all the cards with the unpublished new wordings? For instance Stash or Embargo which will be functionally, albeit subtly, different... In the other thread it seemed like an Embargo rules question for the online platform was based on the new wording that hasn't been published.
You'd want to ask this where Stef or SCSN would see it. I can tell you that they know the new wordings, and that I'd be fine with them using the new wordings.
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