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Author Topic: New shuffling rule  (Read 12207 times)

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majiponi

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Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #25 on: September 28, 2016, 08:47:42 am »
+3

My deck has two cards.
My -1 Card token is on the deck.
I play Smithy.
What happens?

A.
1. would draw 3 cards
2. remove -1 Card token
3. would draw 2 cards
4. draw 2 cards

B.
1. would draw 3 cards
2. reshuffle
3. remove -1 card token
4. would draw 2 cards
5. draw 2 cards

C. I can decide.
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SkyHard

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Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #26 on: September 28, 2016, 09:00:22 am »
+3

My deck has two cards.
My -1 Card token is on the deck.
I play Smithy.
What happens?

A.
1. would draw 3 cards
2. remove -1 Card token
3. would draw 2 cards
4. draw 2 cards

B.
1. would draw 3 cards
2. reshuffle
3. remove -1 card token
4. would draw 2 cards
5. draw 2 cards

C. I can decide.

I would say: A.
Why would you shuffe? You have enough cards to draw them without shuffling, so no shuffling.
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majiponi

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Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #27 on: September 28, 2016, 10:53:52 am »
0

My deck has two cards.
My -1 Card token is on the deck.
I play Smithy.
What happens?

A.
1. would draw 3 cards
2. remove -1 Card token
3. would draw 2 cards
4. draw 2 cards

B.
1. would draw 3 cards
2. reshuffle
3. remove -1 card token
4. would draw 2 cards
5. draw 2 cards

C. I can decide.

I would say: A.
Why would you shuffe? You have enough cards to draw them without shuffling, so no shuffling.
I mean, when does -1 card token really work? Instantly when you are ordered to draw? Or just before you actually draw? This matters on this new rule.
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Seprix

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Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #28 on: September 28, 2016, 10:59:18 am »
+1

You already know you can only draw two cards due to the -1 Card token, so why would you be allowed to 'draw three' before the cards decide, "oh yeah, I've got this token so I can only draw two."
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GendoIkari

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Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #29 on: September 28, 2016, 11:23:53 am »
0

You already know you can only draw two cards due to the -1 Card token, so why would you be allowed to 'draw three' before the cards decide, "oh yeah, I've got this token so I can only draw two."

Right. The rule, based on Donald's clarification, seems to be that if you "know" how many you'll draw, that's the number you're dealing with. Now, I'm assuming a really strict definition of "know". Say you opened Library/nothing, and haven't yet bought any other action cards. You play Library on turn 4, with 1 card left in your deck. While you technically "know" that you will draw exactly 3 cards, Library as a whole works such that it doesn't know how many will be drawn; normally you might be needing the next 3 or 4 or more cards, depending on how many action cards you find and skip. So Library always draws 1 at a time.
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chipperMDW

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Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #30 on: September 28, 2016, 12:07:08 pm »
+2

The issue is what it algorithmically means to "know" how many cards you're going to draw, and how that interacts with the token.

If it's A (the one people seem to intuitively feel is correct), it's because the -1 Card Token now works by changing a "+N Cards" instruction into a "+{N - 1} Cards" instruction, and, once everything is settled, the final modified instruction decides the number of cards you "know" you'll draw.


Then other questions are raised about "knowing."  If you trash four Rats with Chapel, are you supposed to "know" you're going to draw four cards?  If you do, now you have a new layer of the game rules where you start having to look at simultaneously-triggered effects and combining them into single packets of "knowledge."

And what if it was three Rats and a Catacombs? Can you split your "knowledge" up so you can "know" you're drawing two cards (and draw them) before deciding what to gain, then "know" you're drawing the other one? Or do you have to "know" about all three draws at the same time and maybe trigger a reshuffle you didn't want yet?
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Donald X.

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Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #31 on: September 28, 2016, 05:32:57 pm »
+4

I mean, when does -1 card token really work? Instantly when you are ordered to draw? Or just before you actually draw? This matters on this new rule.
The -1 card token applies as the first step of "draw N cards."
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Donald X.

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Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #32 on: September 28, 2016, 05:34:11 pm »
+5

Then other questions are raised about "knowing."  If you trash four Rats with Chapel, are you supposed to "know" you're going to draw four cards?  If you do, now you have a new layer of the game rules where you start having to look at simultaneously-triggered effects and combining them into single packets of "knowledge."

And what if it was three Rats and a Catacombs? Can you split your "knowledge" up so you can "know" you're drawing two cards (and draw them) before deciding what to gain, then "know" you're drawing the other one? Or do you have to "know" about all three draws at the same time and maybe trigger a reshuffle you didn't want yet?
Trashing four Rats with Chapel is, and always has been, four separate +1 Card things, not +4 Cards. Similar for three Rats and Catacombs, where you can pick when in the sequence to resolve the Catacombs.
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GendoIkari

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Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #33 on: September 28, 2016, 05:56:17 pm »
+2

Can you clarify the 2 Stash questions? If you are reshuffling with 2 cards left in your draw pile can you:

1) Take a Stash from your draw pile and put it in the shuffled discard pile?
2) Take a Stash from the shuffled discard pile and put it in/on your draw pile?
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Donald X.

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Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #34 on: September 28, 2016, 06:17:04 pm »
+6

Can you clarify the 2 Stash questions? If you are reshuffling with 2 cards left in your draw pile can you:

1) Take a Stash from your draw pile and put it in the shuffled discard pile?
2) Take a Stash from the shuffled discard pile and put it in/on your draw pile?
A key issue here is, that I get to reword Stash too. The existing wording was already trouble in that it doesn't make it clear that only Stashes being shuffled can be positioned.

For the moment I would play that your Stashes are marked cards, and you are allowed to take advantage of that, but get no special privileges beyond that; it simply is a card that you can distinguish from the back. That was always the intention and I bet that's how it will end up. The text on the card is just trying to make it clear that you aren't cheating when you make use of knowing which cards are Stashes, and group them at the top or whatever; again I will fix that text.
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Watno

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Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #35 on: September 28, 2016, 06:31:11 pm »
0

Can you clarify the 2 Stash questions? If you are reshuffling with 2 cards left in your draw pile can you:

1) Take a Stash from your draw pile and put it in the shuffled discard pile?
2) Take a Stash from the shuffled discard pile and put it in/on your draw pile?
A key issue here is, that I get to reword Stash too. The existing wording was already trouble in that it doesn't make it clear that only Stashes being shuffled can be positioned.

For the moment I would play that your Stashes are marked cards, and you are allowed to take advantage of that, but get no special privileges beyond that; it simply is a card that you can distinguish from the back. That was always the intention and I bet that's how it will end up. The text on the card is just trying to make it clear that you aren't cheating when you make use of knowing which cards are Stashes, and group them at the top or whatever; again I will fix that text.

So that means if i have 3 stashes in my discard, 2 cards in my draw pile and then play a Smithy, I am allowed to place the 3 stashes on the very top of my draw pile and then draw them instead of the 2 cards that were originally on top?
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Chris is me

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Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #36 on: September 28, 2016, 06:37:20 pm »
+5

Can you clarify the 2 Stash questions? If you are reshuffling with 2 cards left in your draw pile can you:

1) Take a Stash from your draw pile and put it in the shuffled discard pile?
2) Take a Stash from the shuffled discard pile and put it in/on your draw pile?
A key issue here is, that I get to reword Stash too. The existing wording was already trouble in that it doesn't make it clear that only Stashes being shuffled can be positioned.

For the moment I would play that your Stashes are marked cards, and you are allowed to take advantage of that, but get no special privileges beyond that; it simply is a card that you can distinguish from the back. That was always the intention and I bet that's how it will end up. The text on the card is just trying to make it clear that you aren't cheating when you make use of knowing which cards are Stashes, and group them at the top or whatever; again I will fix that text.

So that means if i have 3 stashes in my discard, 2 cards in my draw pile and then play a Smithy, I am allowed to place the 3 stashes on the very top of my draw pile and then draw them instead of the 2 cards that were originally on top?

I think it's pretty clear from his post that it is not a thing you can do. He just said to treat Stash as a marked card in a shuffle - ie put it wherever you want in the shuffle, not outside the shuffle.
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Watno

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Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #37 on: September 28, 2016, 06:47:02 pm »
0

Stash says you place it in your deck, not in your "shuffle". Donald's answer hasn't clarified anything about Gendo's explicit questions to me.
He says you can grupt them at the "top". When you shuffle, the "top" of your deck is the card that were remaining in your draw pile.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2016, 06:48:49 pm by Watno »
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Whizkid

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Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #38 on: September 28, 2016, 06:59:30 pm »
+1

I can hardly wait for a card that says "When you draw this, +1 Card."
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Donald X.

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Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #39 on: September 28, 2016, 07:00:54 pm »
+2

Stash says you place it in your deck, not in your "shuffle". Donald's answer hasn't clarified anything about Gendo's explicit questions to me.
He says you can grupt them at the "top". When you shuffle, the "top" of your deck is the card that were remaining in your draw pile.
My answer worked for Chris is me, and I can only spend so much time repeating things.

Stash is just a marked card that it's okay to take advantage of. When I have to draw 3 and have 2 cards left and so shuffle, I don't get to put any of those cards-being-shuffled into the 2, whether or not they're Stashes. Stash doesn't change that, it's just marked.

This may not be clear from the current wording of Stash but it will one day get a better wording.
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GendoIkari

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Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #40 on: September 28, 2016, 07:11:04 pm »
+4

Stash says you place it in your deck, not in your "shuffle". Donald's answer hasn't clarified anything about Gendo's explicit questions to me.
He says you can grupt them at the "top". When you shuffle, the "top" of your deck is the card that were remaining in your draw pile.

The answer was clear enough for me; to be more explicit it's "no" to both my questions. To rephrase what Donald said, just pretend that Stash has no text or ability beyond Silver. It just has a different back. Because it has a different back, whenever you shuffle, nothing stops you from shuffling as much as you want until all your stashes are exactly where you want them to be. But they could never jump out of or into the set of cards you are shuffling.
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werothegreat

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Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #41 on: September 29, 2016, 09:11:15 am »
+2

This may not be clear from the current wording of Stash but it will one day get a better wording.

When you shuffle, put this anywhere in your deck (the new bit that you just shuffled, not the vestigial leftover bit of your last deck).
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Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #42 on: September 29, 2016, 10:12:35 am »
+2

This may not be clear from the current wording of Stash but it will one day get a better wording.

When you shuffle, put this anywhere in your deck (the new bit that you just shuffled, not the vestigial leftover bit of your last deck).
When you shuffle this, put this anywhere among the shuffled cards.

It's not that bad really.
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M Town Wins-Losses (6-2, 75%): 71, 72, 76, 81, 83, 87 - 79, 82.  M Scum Wins-Losses (2-1, 67%): 80, 101 - 70.
RMM Town Wins-Losses (3-1, 75%): 42, 47, 49 - 31.  RMM Scum Wins-Losses (3-3, 50%): 33, 37, 43 - 29, 32, 35.
Modded: M75, M84, RMM38.     Mislynched (M-RMM): None - 42.     Correctly lynched (M-RMM): 101 - 33, 33, 35.       MVPs: RMM37, M87

GendoIkari

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Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #43 on: September 29, 2016, 10:15:06 am »
+1

This may not be clear from the current wording of Stash but it will one day get a better wording.

When you shuffle, put this anywhere in your deck (the new bit that you just shuffled, not the vestigial leftover bit of your last deck).
When you shuffle this, put this anywhere among the shuffled cards.

It's not that bad really.

"While shuffling, it's not cheating to use the fact that this has a different back to your advantage, so you can shuffle in such a way that these cards end up in the position that you want."
« Last Edit: September 29, 2016, 11:59:11 am by GendoIkari »
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Watno

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Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #44 on: September 29, 2016, 10:17:36 am »
0

My natural undertsanding of "shuffling" is "randomizing the order of cards in your deck" (once). If you understand it as randomizing until you like the result (as far as you can judge it from the backs), you could just as well argue you can just flip your discard and not shuffle it all.
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Witherweaver

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Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #45 on: September 29, 2016, 10:18:51 am »
+1

Can we expect a Secret History of Shuffling?
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GendoIkari

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Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #46 on: September 29, 2016, 10:20:23 am »
0

My natural undertsanding of "shuffling" is "randomizing the order of cards in your deck" (once). If you understand it as randomizing until you like the result (as far as you can judge it from the backs), you could just as well argue you can just flip your discard and not shuffle it all.

Normally, you're right. But Stash is an exception to this rule. The very fact that Stash has a different back requires a different definition of Shuffling (or a rule saying that you have to close your eyes while shuffling).
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Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #47 on: September 29, 2016, 11:53:02 am »
0

This may not be clear from the current wording of Stash but it will one day get a better wording.

When you shuffle, put this anywhere in your deck (the new bit that you just shuffled, not the vestigial leftover bit of your last deck).
When you shuffle this, put this anywhere among the shuffled cards.

It's not that bad really.

While shuffling, it's not cheating to use the fact that this has a different back to your advantage, so you can shuffle in such a way that these cards end up in the position that you want.
How is this a response to my post?
My point was directed at wero, that the wording change doesn't have to be as crazy as his proposed new wording.
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M Town Wins-Losses (6-2, 75%): 71, 72, 76, 81, 83, 87 - 79, 82.  M Scum Wins-Losses (2-1, 67%): 80, 101 - 70.
RMM Town Wins-Losses (3-1, 75%): 42, 47, 49 - 31.  RMM Scum Wins-Losses (3-3, 50%): 33, 37, 43 - 29, 32, 35.
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GendoIkari

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Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #48 on: September 29, 2016, 11:58:34 am »
0

This may not be clear from the current wording of Stash but it will one day get a better wording.

When you shuffle, put this anywhere in your deck (the new bit that you just shuffled, not the vestigial leftover bit of your last deck).
When you shuffle this, put this anywhere among the shuffled cards.

It's not that bad really.

While shuffling, it's not cheating to use the fact that this has a different back to your advantage, so you can shuffle in such a way that these cards end up in the position that you want.
How is this a response to my post?
My point was directed at wero, that the wording change doesn't have to be as crazy as his proposed new wording.

Sorry, should have put quotation marks around my post; it was suggesting a possible (purposefully silly, but technically accurate) alternative wording.
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Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #49 on: September 29, 2016, 12:03:29 pm »
0

This may not be clear from the current wording of Stash but it will one day get a better wording.

When you shuffle, put this anywhere in your deck (the new bit that you just shuffled, not the vestigial leftover bit of your last deck).
When you shuffle this, put this anywhere among the shuffled cards.

It's not that bad really.

While shuffling, it's not cheating to use the fact that this has a different back to your advantage, so you can shuffle in such a way that these cards end up in the position that you want.
How is this a response to my post?
My point was directed at wero, that the wording change doesn't have to be as crazy as his proposed new wording.

Sorry, should have put quotation marks around my post; it was suggesting a possible (purposefully silly, but technically accurate) alternative wording.
Ohhhhhhhh.  I'm with you.
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The best reason to lynch Haddock is the meltdown we get to witness on the wagon runup. I mean, we should totally wagon him every day just for the lulz.

M Town Wins-Losses (6-2, 75%): 71, 72, 76, 81, 83, 87 - 79, 82.  M Scum Wins-Losses (2-1, 67%): 80, 101 - 70.
RMM Town Wins-Losses (3-1, 75%): 42, 47, 49 - 31.  RMM Scum Wins-Losses (3-3, 50%): 33, 37, 43 - 29, 32, 35.
Modded: M75, M84, RMM38.     Mislynched (M-RMM): None - 42.     Correctly lynched (M-RMM): 101 - 33, 33, 35.       MVPs: RMM37, M87
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