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#### GendoIkari

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##### New shuffling rule
« on: September 26, 2016, 02:10:11 pm »
+2

While Stash is the only thing affected by this change, it's leaving me with some questions about how drawing actually works. So the new rules says that when you play a Smithy, if you have 2 cards in your draw pile left, you don't draw any cards before shuffling. But is this clarified in the rules? I've read the new section under "Shuffling", and it still seems like there's 2 valid interpretations:

1) I need to "do something with my deck" that requires 3 cards. I only have 2 cards. So I'll shuffle first.

2) Drawing is 1 at a time by nature. So at the moment I play Smithy, I need to do something with my deck that requires 1 card, so I draw that card. Then I do that again. Then I still need to do something with my deck that requires 1 card, but I have 0, so I'll shuffle first.

Now obviously the first options is what's intended, because otherwise "put it under your deck" makes no sense. So I guess my question is; is there a general rule about when drawing cards is considered all 1 atomic action? What about "draw up to X" cards? Are those drawn one at a time, checking after each if you've drawn enough?

I think that that was the ruling on "discard down to 3"; that you can discard a Tunnel, then reveal Watchtower to put the Gold on top of your deck, then discard Watchtower as the second card.. but I don't remember for sure.

For Library, it would *have* to be one at a time, because you don't know how many cards you will draw ahead of time. But if you know you are going to have to draw at least 4 cards, (but you might be going through 5 or 6), do you shuffle before beginning if you have less than 4 cards in your draw pile?
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#### Davio

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##### Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2016, 02:29:19 pm »
0

To clarify: it doesn't say that you should shuffle your entire deck, only your discard, putting the reshuffled discard under your current deck. And only when you know you are going to need the extra cards (for drawing, revealing, etc.)

Sometimes you don't know (Golem), so you don't shuffle. And when you play Madman with 20 cards in your hand, you just make an educated guess I think?

I think it's meant to speed things up so you can draw all of the cards at the same time.
Not 3 actions: draw - shuffle - draw, but just 2 actions: shuffle - draw.
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#### Watno

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##### Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2016, 02:38:24 pm »
+3

I think the new rule is needlessly complicated if you actually do it. How is being required to put your shuffled discard under the draw pile simpler than what we had before?

Also, it sounds really annoying having to count your draw pile when playing lots of cards (like with the Madman Davio mentioned).
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#### LastFootnote

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##### Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2016, 03:04:57 pm »
0

I think the new rule is needlessly complicated if you actually do it. How is being required to put your shuffled discard under the draw pile simpler than what we had before?

I think the old rule was fine. That being said, the new rule does have the advantage of not having to remember how many cards you've already drawn while you're shuffling, which is something that I sometimes have trouble doing. I'm trying to remember to do it the new way for that reason alone, but it's a tough habit to break.

Also, it sounds really annoying having to count your draw pile when playing lots of cards (like with the Madman Davio mentioned).

I don't see how it's any worse than the old system. Under the old rule you still had to count those cards as you drew them. Realistically you're not going to count them twice in a situation like this.
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#### werothegreat

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##### Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2016, 04:29:27 pm »
0

I think the one pro to the new way is you'll never forget how many cards you've already drawn mid-shuffle.
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#### chipperMDW

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##### Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2016, 04:43:06 pm »
+1

Do cards like Cellar do "+1 Card" N times (i.e. reshuffle potentially comes in the middle) or "+N Cards" (i.e. reshuffle comes before drawing any of them)?

(EDIT: Well, Cellar's a bad example since it got a wording update; pretend I asked about Apprentice or something.)

If (for example) your -1 Card Token is on your empty deck and you get +1 Card, do you remove the Token and then decide you don't need to reshuffle, or do you reshuffle but then remove the Token without drawing anything?

« Last Edit: September 26, 2016, 05:11:48 pm by chipperMDW »
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#### GendoIkari

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##### Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2016, 05:12:37 pm »
+2

I don't get this rule. If i play smithy and there are two cards on my deck i draw them correct?

Yes, but before you do, you shuffle your discard pile and place it underneath your deck. Then you draw 3 cards, the first 2 of which are the 2 you had in your draw pile.
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#### Donald X.

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##### Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2016, 05:18:28 pm »
+2

While Stash is the only thing affected by this change, it's leaving me with some questions about how drawing actually works. So the new rules says that when you play a Smithy, if you have 2 cards in your draw pile left, you don't draw any cards before shuffling. But is this clarified in the rules? I've read the new section under "Shuffling", and it still seems like there's 2 valid interpretations:

1) I need to "do something with my deck" that requires 3 cards. I only have 2 cards. So I'll shuffle first.

2) Drawing is 1 at a time by nature. So at the moment I play Smithy, I need to do something with my deck that requires 1 card, so I draw that card. Then I do that again. Then I still need to do something with my deck that requires 1 card, but I have 0, so I'll shuffle first.

Now obviously the first options is what's intended, because otherwise "put it under your deck" makes no sense. So I guess my question is; is there a general rule about when drawing cards is considered all 1 atomic action? What about "draw up to X" cards? Are those drawn one at a time, checking after each if you've drawn enough?

I think that that was the ruling on "discard down to 3"; that you can discard a Tunnel, then reveal Watchtower to put the Gold on top of your deck, then discard Watchtower as the second card.. but I don't remember for sure.

For Library, it would *have* to be one at a time, because you don't know how many cards you will draw ahead of time. But if you know you are going to have to draw at least 4 cards, (but you might be going through 5 or 6), do you shuffle before beginning if you have less than 4 cards in your draw pile?
When you don't know how many cards you are accessing, you are doing them one at a time, and don't shuffle until you get to that point.

When you do know how many cards you are accessing, if there aren't enough, you shuffle your discard pile first, put it under your deck, then do the thing.

Again the old rule was mystifying with e.g. Lookout.

Obv. just as some people have always done it this way despite it not being the rule, there will be people who don't do it this way now that it is the rule. It makes no difference except for Stash. The entire point of the change is to have a rule that works well. "Do the thing with the remaining cards, then..." always had the issue of "what if the thing really requires all the cards."
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#### singletee

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##### Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2016, 05:19:30 pm »
+1

I don't get this rule. If i play smithy and there are two cards on my deck i draw them correct?

Yes, but before you do, you shuffle your discard pile and place it underneath your deck. Then you draw 3 cards, the first 2 of which are the 2 you had in your draw pile.

Hmm, does this mean that if a Stash was one of the cards remaining in your deck, you can move it so that you don't draw it?
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#### GendoIkari

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##### Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2016, 05:25:03 pm »
+1

I don't get this rule. If i play smithy and there are two cards on my deck i draw them correct?

Yes, but before you do, you shuffle your discard pile and place it underneath your deck. Then you draw 3 cards, the first 2 of which are the 2 you had in your draw pile.

Hmm, does this mean that if a Stash was one of the cards remaining in your deck, you can move it so that you don't draw it?

I assume not... "when you shuffle" on Stash has always meant "when you shuffle, for each stash that's in the pile you are shuffling"...
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#### Chris is me

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##### Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2016, 05:29:10 pm »
0

I don't get this rule. If i play smithy and there are two cards on my deck i draw them correct?

Yes, but before you do, you shuffle your discard pile and place it underneath your deck. Then you draw 3 cards, the first 2 of which are the 2 you had in your draw pile.

Hmm, does this mean that if a Stash was one of the cards remaining in your deck, you can move it so that you don't draw it?

I assume not... "when you shuffle" on Stash has always meant "when you shuffle, for each stash that's in the pile you are shuffling"...

I agree with your assumption, but I just wanna point out that in the past there has never been a deck of cards that persists while you shuffle.
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#### werothegreat

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##### Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2016, 05:34:28 pm »
0

Tbh the change only really affects Stash if you've got the -1 card token on your deck
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#### Watno

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##### Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2016, 05:43:29 pm »
+5

Tbh the change only really affects Stash if you've got the -1 card token on your deck
You might be misunderstanding the issue. Previously, if you had 4 cards left in your deck at the end of your turn, you would draw 4, be able to look at them, and then decide where you put your Stashes. With the new rule, you can't look at the cards before deciding.
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#### Simon (DK)

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##### Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2016, 04:38:41 am »
+4

Where was the new rule made?

To me it sounds like a bad change that is complicating things.

Before:
When you need to do something with a card in your deck, and there's no cards in your deck, shuffle your discard pile and put it as your new deck.

Now:
When you need to do something with a number of cards in your deck, then start by counting your deck. If there's not enough cards, then shuffle your discard pile and put it below the current cards in your deck.

Or am I missing something?
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#### GendoIkari

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##### Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2016, 08:46:03 am »
+1

Where was the new rule made?

To me it sounds like a bad change that is complicating things.

Before:
When you need to do something with a card in your deck, and there's no cards in your deck, shuffle your discard pile and put it as your new deck.

Now:
When you need to do something with a number of cards in your deck, then start by counting your deck. If there's not enough cards, then shuffle your discard pile and put it below the current cards in your deck.

Or am I missing something?

This is from the second edition rule book. I agree with you, though I do also see the valid reason for the change; that you don't have to explain how you draw half of your smithy, then shuffle, then finish drawing from it; as well as eliminating the need to remember how many you've drawn so far while shuffling.
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#### Davio

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##### Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2016, 08:57:55 am »
+1

The new rule is pretty annoying.

Your draw pile is generally a single card long and wide with the rest hidden underneath it. If you want to know how many cards are left, you have to spread them out and count them (making sure not to mess with the current ordering).
Remembering how many cards you drew with Smithy is pretty easy, just set them aside. Even with higher numbers this is not too difficult.

I can understand the reasoning behind the new rule, but the old one is clearly better.

And I wouldn't make it an actual rule, but rather a house rule. If you are playing Embassy and already know that there are 4 cards in your deck, be my guest and shuffle the discard in advance if you wish. Just make sure that your Stashes don't end up in the top 4 after shuffling.
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#### Asper

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##### Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2016, 09:31:51 am »
+1

While i understand the purpose of the change, i feel it's not a good idea simply because of Stash. It also seems to me that counting the cards is just as much effort as drawing them, meaning you will effectively take twice the time you draw. I get the intention of not having to remember things, and maybe that's worth it. Maybe we're all just old dogs refusing to learn new things. (Does this saying even exist in english...?)
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#### werothegreat

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##### Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2016, 10:04:51 am »
+2

Maybe we're all just old dogs refusing to learn new things. (Does this saying even exist in english...?)

Sort of.
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#### Seprix

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##### Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2016, 10:27:38 am »
0

Tbh the change only really affects Stash if you've got the -1 card token on your deck
You might be misunderstanding the issue. Previously, if you had 4 cards left in your deck at the end of your turn, you would draw 4, be able to look at them, and then decide where you put your Stashes. With the new rule, you can't look at the cards before deciding.

Stash got nerfed!
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#### Orange

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##### Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2016, 10:37:00 am »
0

The new rule is pretty annoying.

Your draw pile is generally a single card long and wide with the rest hidden underneath it. If you want to know how many cards are left, you have to spread them out and count them (making sure not to mess with the current ordering).
Remembering how many cards you drew with Smithy is pretty easy, just set them aside. Even with higher numbers this is not too difficult.

I can understand the reasoning behind the new rule, but the old one is clearly better.

And I wouldn't make it an actual rule, but rather a house rule. If you are playing Embassy and already know that there are 4 cards in your deck, be my guest and shuffle the discard in advance if you wish. Just make sure that your Stashes don't end up in the top 4 after shuffling.

Actually I think the new rule allows me to put those Stashes from my discard pile right on top of my deck, on top of cards that weren't drawn yet.

Stash got buffed!?
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##### Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2016, 11:20:16 am »
+1

The new rule is pretty annoying.

Your draw pile is generally a single card long and wide with the rest hidden underneath it. If you want to know how many cards are left, you have to spread them out and count them (making sure not to mess with the current ordering).
Remembering how many cards you drew with Smithy is pretty easy, just set them aside. Even with higher numbers this is not too difficult.

I can understand the reasoning behind the new rule, but the old one is clearly better.

And I wouldn't make it an actual rule, but rather a house rule. If you are playing Embassy and already know that there are 4 cards in your deck, be my guest and shuffle the discard in advance if you wish. Just make sure that your Stashes don't end up in the top 4 after shuffling.

Actually I think the new rule allows me to put those Stashes from my discard pile right on top of my deck, on top of cards that weren't drawn yet.

Stash got buffed!?
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#### Chris is me

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##### Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2016, 12:11:29 pm »
+1

There's a practical way to follow this rule without this being even a little bit of a problem.

When drawing cards, put your hand aside and deal the cards you draw from your deck into another pile, then pick them all up.

This both lets you keep track of how many cards to draw during a reshuffle, and you don't see the cards while shuffling for the remainder.

Stash is lame anyway.
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#### GendoIkari

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##### Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2016, 02:01:08 pm »
+1

The new rule is pretty annoying.

Your draw pile is generally a single card long and wide with the rest hidden underneath it. If you want to know how many cards are left, you have to spread them out and count them (making sure not to mess with the current ordering).
Remembering how many cards you drew with Smithy is pretty easy, just set them aside. Even with higher numbers this is not too difficult.

I can understand the reasoning behind the new rule, but the old one is clearly better.

And I wouldn't make it an actual rule, but rather a house rule. If you are playing Embassy and already know that there are 4 cards in your deck, be my guest and shuffle the discard in advance if you wish. Just make sure that your Stashes don't end up in the top 4 after shuffling.

Actually I think the new rule allows me to put those Stashes from my discard pile right on top of my deck, on top of cards that weren't drawn yet.

Stash got buffed!?

No, I'm pretty sure not. But that's actually a good question. The rule isn't clear on that point. Does "anywhere in your deck" include the unshuffled remained of your draw deck, or only the discard pile that you're shuffling?
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#### Asper

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##### Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2016, 03:53:52 pm »
+3

The new rule is pretty annoying.

Your draw pile is generally a single card long and wide with the rest hidden underneath it. If you want to know how many cards are left, you have to spread them out and count them (making sure not to mess with the current ordering).
Remembering how many cards you drew with Smithy is pretty easy, just set them aside. Even with higher numbers this is not too difficult.

I can understand the reasoning behind the new rule, but the old one is clearly better.

And I wouldn't make it an actual rule, but rather a house rule. If you are playing Embassy and already know that there are 4 cards in your deck, be my guest and shuffle the discard in advance if you wish. Just make sure that your Stashes don't end up in the top 4 after shuffling.

Actually I think the new rule allows me to put those Stashes from my discard pile right on top of my deck, on top of cards that weren't drawn yet.

Stash got buffed!?

No, I'm pretty sure not. But that's actually a good question. The rule isn't clear on that point. Does "anywhere in your deck" include the unshuffled remained of your draw deck, or only the discard pile that you're shuffling?

From Stash's wording, you put it in "your deck", and the undrawn cards are technically your deck, aren't they? I'm pretty sure that's not what the ruling will be like, but following the card verbatim leads there IMO.
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#### GendoIkari

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##### Re: New shuffling rule
« Reply #24 on: September 27, 2016, 04:39:21 pm »
+1

The new rule is pretty annoying.

Your draw pile is generally a single card long and wide with the rest hidden underneath it. If you want to know how many cards are left, you have to spread them out and count them (making sure not to mess with the current ordering).
Remembering how many cards you drew with Smithy is pretty easy, just set them aside. Even with higher numbers this is not too difficult.

I can understand the reasoning behind the new rule, but the old one is clearly better.

And I wouldn't make it an actual rule, but rather a house rule. If you are playing Embassy and already know that there are 4 cards in your deck, be my guest and shuffle the discard in advance if you wish. Just make sure that your Stashes don't end up in the top 4 after shuffling.

Actually I think the new rule allows me to put those Stashes from my discard pile right on top of my deck, on top of cards that weren't drawn yet.

Stash got buffed!?

No, I'm pretty sure not. But that's actually a good question. The rule isn't clear on that point. Does "anywhere in your deck" include the unshuffled remained of your draw deck, or only the discard pile that you're shuffling?

From Stash's wording, you put it in "your deck", and the undrawn cards are technically your deck, aren't they? I'm pretty sure that's not what the ruling will be like, but following the card verbatim leads there IMO.

I agree. But Stash clearly didn't intend this when it was written.
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