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[werothegreat]

Mill at least does something, unlike Great Hall. It's not boring. And it synergizes with Diplomat.

[Orange]

I think the "Shuffling" section in the new Dominion rules is new.  It used to be that if I was drawing 3 and had 1 left in my deck, I drew the 1, could look at it, then shuffled and drew the other 2.  That has changed.  So now, for instance, I won't know what I drew on the first card (sans having deck contents memorized) before choosing where to put my Stashes.  Significant change?

[werothegreat]

I think the "Shuffling" section in the new Dominion rules is new.  It used to be that if I was drawing 3 and had 1 left in my deck, I drew the 1, could look at it, then shuffled and drew the other 2.  That has changed.  So now, for instance, I won't know what I drew on the first card (sans having deck contents memorized) before choosing where to put my Stashes.  Significant change?

The new way makes zero sense for digging cards.  The new way also means you can slide Stash on top of your deck before the few cards you would have drawn first, which is also silly.

[stechafle]

Bandit can trash Platinum. Ouch!

[Aleimon Thimble]

So now that I have time for a more detailed opinion, I'll say the following.

I'm very, very enthusiastic about all of the changes to the Base game. The 6 cards that were removed were not only the 6 cards I predicted, but also the exact same 6 cards I would have killed. They're all very weak, most of them are rather boring and mostly obsolete. Some of the new cards are also really exciting, I'm especially looking forward to playing with Artisan, Bandit and Sentry. Bandit is a very nice fixed Thief variant, Artisan reminds me of Altar but I think it plays different enough that it's definitely worth the slot, and Sentry is the oh-so-badly needed extra trasher. It's kind of a fixed Lookout in a way, because you're not actually forced to trash the cards you reveal. Merchant and Poacher look kinda weak, but the set certainly needs a couple of extra cheapish cantrips like that, especially now that Vassal exists. Overall, love it, and I am definitely going to buy the updated Base set if it ever comes out here.

As enthusiastic as I am about the Base game, I'm somewhat disappointed in the new Intrigue and I think I actually liked the old one better overall. Although I was a bit fearful of it already, it really sucks that Coppersmith is gone. Sure, it was a bit narrow, but still one of the coolest cards in Intrigue, and it certainly didn't deserve to get the axe imo. I understand that Saboteur needed to go, even though I kinda liked it, but I had hoped for another trashing attack in its place instead of another junker. We have very few trashing attacks already when compared to junking attacks. Other than that, I'm still sad that the Masquerade pin got destroyed.

I also don't really like most of the new cards at first glance. Courtier looks horribly overpowered, like a slightly weaker Governor without the downside. Diplomat looks confusing and not very useful as a Reaction card. Lurker is weird, it seems out of place in Intrigue and looks like a Dark Ages takeout. I also don't think the set needed Replace, it already has Upgrade. The remaining cards are nice, I guess; Secret Passage is a clever idea, Patrol is an interesting take on a Scout-ish card, and Mill is a pretty cool mashup of Great Hall and Secret Chamber. Still, overall I'll probably need a lot of time to get used to the new Intrigue, I'm not sure if I'll ever buy it, and I'll definitely refuse to ever remove Coppersmith from my own set.

[werothegreat]

Bandit can trash Platinum. Ouch!

And Fool's Gold.  And Bank.  And Spoils.  And...

Diplomat looks confusing and not very useful as a Reaction card.

"I play Militia."
"Oh, thanks, let me just play Warehouse twice, and, yeah, I'm already down to 3 cards.  Thanks!"

It also lets you find your other Reactions.  And combos with Tunnel.

[JW]

"I play Militia."
"Oh, thanks, let me just play Warehouse twice, and, yeah, I'm already down to 3 cards.  Thanks!"

You need 5 or more cards in hand to use Diplomat's reaction. But it's still very useful against Militia because after you discard down to 3 you're guaranteed to trigger Diplomat's +Actions.

[J Reggie]

"I play Militia."
"Oh, thanks, let me just play Warehouse twice, and, yeah, I'm already down to 3 cards.  Thanks!"

It also lets you find your other Reactions.  And combos with Tunnel.

Well You only get to do the thing once unless you had more than 5 cards in hand.

Edit:  ninja'd

[Aleimon Thimble]

I guess this proves my point that it is confusing?

[Chris is me]

I completely do not understand why anyone thinks the Masquerade pin made Dominion a better game.

As much as you might have enjoyed pulling it off, just in terms of game design, mutually enjoyable play experience for all, etc. it's obvious why the game was much worse off for having it than for not having it. Playing against it could ruin Dominion for players, easily. It was just an awful game mechanic that you guys just enjoyed exploiting, not some treasured part of the Dominion experience that made for quality gameplay. I'm glad it's gone. I'm glad the Bureaucrat pin is gone. Dominion is better off for it.

[ignorentmen]

Love that the new card art has more females represented!

All of this, this whole process, getting rid of cards players don't like, changing confusing rules, adding new cards, adding females to the card art, using input from members of this forum. It all just shows a great level of dedication and quality from Donald and Rio Grande Games. Being listen to the buying audience shouldn't be a rarity in today's world, but it is. A company that can listen deserves to be praised. Plainly put, it is just awesome! So thanks!

[Aleimon Thimble]

Love that the new card art has more females represented!

All of this, this whole process, getting rid of cards players don't like, changing confusing rules, adding new cards, adding females to the card art, using input from members of this forum. It all just shows a great level of dedication and quality from Donald and Rio Grande Games. Being listen to the buying audience shouldn't be a rarity in today's world, but it is. A company that can listen deserves to be praised. Plainly put, it is just awesome! So thanks!

That's certainly true. My critique towards the new Intrigue is not meant as a critique towards Donald or the overhauling process itself; I think it's a good idea in general, especially considering potential future players. And since the Base set is still the, well, base set, it's way more important to get right than Intrigue; you can just skip Intrigue if you don't like it, especially now that it's no longer a standalone.

[GendoIkari]

I think the "Shuffling" section in the new Dominion rules is new.  It used to be that if I was drawing 3 and had 1 left in my deck, I drew the 1, could look at it, then shuffled and drew the other 2.  That has changed.  So now, for instance, I won't know what I drew on the first card (sans having deck contents memorized) before choosing where to put my Stashes.  Significant change?

The new way makes zero sense for digging cards.  The new way also means you can slide Stash on top of your deck before the few cards you would have drawn first, which is also silly.

Yeah this is weird. First off, if I play a Watchtower as the last card in my hand, do I really have to count my deck to see if I have less than 6 cards in it before I can just start drawing? I'm curious if this is really meant to be a rule change, or if it was just the easiest way to state that you draw what you can from your old deck and the rest from your discard pile after shuffling it.

[spiralstaircase]

"I play Militia."
"Oh, thanks, let me just play Warehouse twice, and, yeah, I'm already down to 3 cards.  Thanks!"

You need 5 or more cards in hand to use Diplomat's reaction. But it's still very useful against Militia because after you discard down to 3 you're guaranteed to trigger Diplomat's +Actions.

So if my opponent plays Council Room, Council Room, Militia:

• I'm being attacked, so I reveal my Diplomat from a hand of 7 cards.  I draw 2 and discard 3.
• I'm still being attacked, so I reveal my Diplomat from a hand of 6 cards.  I draw 2 and discard 3.
• I'm still being attacked, so I reveal my Diplomat from a hand of 5 cards.  I draw 2 and discard 3.

So I've drawn 6 cards total, and discarded 9?  Does that work?

[Mic Qsenoch]

"I play Militia."
"Oh, thanks, let me just play Warehouse twice, and, yeah, I'm already down to 3 cards.  Thanks!"

You need 5 or more cards in hand to use Diplomat's reaction. But it's still very useful against Militia because after you discard down to 3 you're guaranteed to trigger Diplomat's +Actions.

So if my opponent plays Council Room, Council Room, Militia:

• I'm being attacked, so I reveal my Diplomat from a hand of 7 cards.  I draw 2 and discard 3.
• I'm still being attacked, so I reveal my Diplomat from a hand of 6 cards.  I draw 2 and discard 3.
• I'm still being attacked, so I reveal my Diplomat from a hand of 5 cards.  I draw 2 and discard 3.

So I've drawn 6 cards total, and discarded 9?  Does that work?

Yes

[werothegreat]

"I play Militia."
"Oh, thanks, let me just play Warehouse twice, and, yeah, I'm already down to 3 cards.  Thanks!"

You need 5 or more cards in hand to use Diplomat's reaction. But it's still very useful against Militia because after you discard down to 3 you're guaranteed to trigger Diplomat's +Actions.

Right, right.  Well, it lets you "play Warehouse" instead of being affected by Minion, Pillage or Taxman.

[Beyond Awesome]

I just realized that with Bandit and Courtier now every Dominion set has at least one gold-gainer. I guess some people just love gold.

[Jack Rudd]

I just realized that with Bandit and Courtier now every Dominion set has at least one gold-gainer. I guess some people just love gold.

Gold is fine, man, what do people have against gold. They can't all be the best $6 card ever.

[Donald X.]

I think the "Shuffling" section in the new Dominion rules is new.  It used to be that if I was drawing 3 and had 1 left in my deck, I drew the 1, could look at it, then shuffled and drew the other 2.  That has changed.  So now, for instance, I won't know what I drew on the first card (sans having deck contents memorized) before choosing where to put my Stashes.  Significant change?

You say "for instance," but the only thing it could possibly change is Stash.

The old way worked fine when the only verb was "draw." It was confusing when there were more verbs. Consider Lookout with only one card left.

And over the years I have seen lots of people do it the new way, even though it wasn't in the rules.

[J Reggie]

I think the "Shuffling" section in the new Dominion rules is new.  It used to be that if I was drawing 3 and had 1 left in my deck, I drew the 1, could look at it, then shuffled and drew the other 2.  That has changed.  So now, for instance, I won't know what I drew on the first card (sans having deck contents memorized) before choosing where to put my Stashes.  Significant change?

You say "for instance," but the only thing it could possibly change is Stash.

The old way worked fine when the only verb was "draw." It was confusing when there were more verbs. Consider Lookout with only one card left.

And over the years I have seen lots of people do it the new way, even though it wasn't in the rules.

Yeah, it's a lot easier this way. And enough people do it IRL that I'm kind of sick of saying "wellllll... technically you're not supposed to do that, but it doesn't really matter do whatever". So this is another "thank you Donald" moment rather than "WTF Donald".

[Orange]

I think the "Shuffling" section in the new Dominion rules is new.  It used to be that if I was drawing 3 and had 1 left in my deck, I drew the 1, could look at it, then shuffled and drew the other 2.  That has changed.  So now, for instance, I won't know what I drew on the first card (sans having deck contents memorized) before choosing where to put my Stashes.  Significant change?

You say "for instance," but the only thing it could possibly change is Stash.

The old way worked fine when the only verb was "draw." It was confusing when there were more verbs. Consider Lookout with only one card left.

And over the years I have seen lots of people do it the new way, even though it wasn't in the rules.

I said "for instance" because I really wasn't sure if there were other things that could be impacted.  I didn't have much of an opinion on if it was significant, thus the question.  Thanks for the response.

[JW]

I'm glad the Bureaucrat pin is gone. Dominion is better off for it.

I'm not sure what you are referring to with Bureaucrat. A Bureaucrat-Masquerade pin is still possible, but has always effectively required a hand-size attack for a near-total lock. See Stef's remarkable game here, for example: https://www.twitch.tv/stef_42/v/44303501

[Chris is me]

I'm glad the Bureaucrat pin is gone. Dominion is better off for it.

I'm not sure what you are referring to with Bureaucrat. A Bureaucrat-Masquerade pin is still possible, but has always effectively required a hand-size attack for a near-total lock. See Stef's remarkable game here, for example: https://www.twitch.tv/stef_42/v/44303501

Sorry, I misspoke and forgot Bureaucrat was left in the game lol. Yeah it's still there.

[blueblimp]

I completely do not understand why anyone thinks the Masquerade pin made Dominion a better game.

As much as you might have enjoyed pulling it off, just in terms of game design, mutually enjoyable play experience for all, etc. it's obvious why the game was much worse off for having it than for not having it. Playing against it could ruin Dominion for players, easily. It was just an awful game mechanic that you guys just enjoyed exploiting, not some treasured part of the Dominion experience that made for quality gameplay. I'm glad it's gone.

I don't mind it being removed but it was an interesting thing that would show up once in a thousand games (because of being a 3-card combo). Not common enough to create degenerate games on a regular basis, but just barely common enough that long-time players will see it a few times, making it fun for analysis and stories.

That said, I've barely played with Adventures and later, so if Royal Carriage makes it a 2-card combo, then a fix was needed for sure.

[Aleimon Thimble]

I completely do not understand why anyone thinks the Masquerade pin made Dominion a better game.

As much as you might have enjoyed pulling it off, just in terms of game design, mutually enjoyable play experience for all, etc. it's obvious why the game was much worse off for having it than for not having it. Playing against it could ruin Dominion for players, easily. It was just an awful game mechanic that you guys just enjoyed exploiting, not some treasured part of the Dominion experience that made for quality gameplay. I'm glad it's gone.

I don't mind it being removed but it was an interesting thing that would show up once in a thousand games (because of being a 3-card combo). Not common enough to create degenerate games on a regular basis, but just barely common enough that long-time players will see it a few times, making it fun for analysis and stories.

That said, I've barely played with Adventures and later, so if Royal Carriage makes it a 2-card combo, then a fix was needed for sure.

The Masquerade pin was never a three-card combo. Any discard attack with KC and Masquerade worked just fine for the full pin, but even without a discard attack it was a highly painful combo. A Kinged Masquerade with an empty hand is enough to get your opponent down to 2 cards in hand, and the other 3 cards in his hand will be trashed, so it's still a brutal combined discard-and-trashing attack. Royal Carriage could perform a full pin on its own, that's true.

Most people also think you have to trash down to a deck of only KC-KC-Goons-Masquerade. That's not at all necessary, you can play any engine as long as you trash all your Coppers and Estates, and you make sure that the last card you play is a Kinged Masquerade. The pin was way more flexible and had more finesse than people say.