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Author Topic: Dominion and Intrigue second editions  (Read 240818 times)

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werothegreat

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #425 on: September 30, 2016, 08:20:04 am »
0

Courtier struck me as overpowered at first. It seems like it would still be a $5 if it was discard instead of reveal.

I just realized Courtier likes Shelters.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #426 on: September 30, 2016, 09:53:34 am »
0

I wonder how skippable courtier will usually be in games with 3 type cards.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #427 on: September 30, 2016, 10:29:45 am »
0

Courtier struck me as overpowered at first. It seems like it would still be a $5 if it was discard instead of reveal.

Really? If you don't have a multi-type card, the +1 Action is completely useless, the +1 Buy is expensive, the +$3 is a terminal Gold (not great), and the gain a gold is decent but kind of expensive. You really ned multi-type cards. And Courtier can't even be a Village, ever.

AdrianHealey

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #428 on: September 30, 2016, 10:43:04 am »
0

Courtier struck me as overpowered at first. It seems like it would still be a $5 if it was discard instead of reveal.

Really? If you don't have a multi-type card, the +1 Action is completely useless, the +1 Buy is expensive, the +$3 is a terminal Gold (not great), and the gain a gold is decent but kind of expensive. You really ned multi-type cards. And Courtier can't even be a Village, ever.

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King's courting an courtier with Dame Joseophine in hand is pretty jackpotty.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2016, 10:44:32 am by AdrianHealey »
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #429 on: September 30, 2016, 10:44:25 am »
0

Diplomat is probably the worst of the replacement cards in my opinion. It's a bit confusing and has two inherently complex abilities. While it might be strong enough - another problem Secret Chamber had - it's not really better than it in terms of elegance.
About the best, i don't know. All do a very good job at replacing the original cards. I guess i like Mill because it's so pretty, but i have yet to play with it. I also like Bandit and pretty much all are better than the original. I also feel none of the old card ideas was completely lost, which is an effort that i appreciate. The cool thing is that now those ideas will actually matter.

For Lurker and Merchant, i'm not convinced they fit this early in the Dominion canon. Merchant would be fine in Intrigue, but Lurker seems like it belongs in Dark Ages. Probably this doesn't matter as much anymore now that all those expansions are available. Neither Intrigue nor Base need to play the role they played originally.

I agree with most of what you said, except that none of the old card ideas were lost. That's not the case at all. I assume you mean considering all cards across Dominion (otherwise even Adventurer is completely lost), in which case Coppersmith, Saboteur, Feast, and arguably Tribute are lost. For Coppersmith we have a little bit in Merchant maybe, and vaguely in Bank, but not really. For Feast, we have other cards that gain $5s, but none that are oneshots that cost less. For Saboteur there is nothing. For Tribute Courtier is pretty different, Ironmonger is actually closer (it can give you +2 Actions at least).

aku_chi

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #430 on: September 30, 2016, 11:41:10 am »
+9

Courtier's power level seems to be pretty polarizing.  Perhaps it would help to know how likely it is for a kingdom to have at least one card with 2+ or 3+ types?  I have done some counting, and this is what I came up with:

In all of Dominion (post-second editions), there are:
180 cards with only one type.
73 cards with two types (counting Catapult and Tournament).
10 cards with three or more types (counting Castles).
In kingdoms with Shelters, everybody starts with 3 two-type cards.
In kingdoms with Inheritance, there is (almost certainly) an opportunity to get two-type cards, and might be an opportunity to get three-type cards.

Given that Courtier is in the kingdom, there is an ~97% chance that a random kingdom has at least one card with at least two types.
Given that Courtier is in the kingdom, the expected number of kingdom cards with at least two types is ~2.86.
Given that Courtier is in the kingdom, there is an ~30% chance that a random kingdom has at least one card with at least three types.
Given that Courtier is in the kingdom, the expected number of kingdom cards with at least three types is ~0.34.

Of course, not all kingdoms with a two-type card are one in which it is trivial or wise to try to pair it with Courtier.  However, there are so many two-type cards - and they tend to be powerful, that it will be very likely for engines to have at least some of them.  Many two-type cards are treasures or non-drawing terminal actions, which makes them convenient to hold onto before playing Courtier.

My thoughts on Courtier:
A $5 card that provided $3 and +buy would compare favorably with Wine Merchant.
A $5 card that provided $3 and a Gold gain would compare very favorably with Explorer.
On most boards, Courtier is better than either of those cards, because it can trivially be either, or one of the other four combination of two options.  Occasionally, in the presence of cards with three or more types, it can be great (non-terminal $3 and buy is the safe combination, but sometimes the Gold gain is really valuable).  Even when it misses, it isn't horrible.  A terminal Gold or Gold-gainer is sometimes good enough, especially early in the game (when Courtier is more likely to miss).

Courtier is primarily a non-attack payload card, which tend to be unpopular, but it is one of the strongest in that category.  I think it might be around the power level of Merchant Guild, but time will tell.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2016, 11:44:32 am by aku_chi »
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trivialknot

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #431 on: September 30, 2016, 12:21:34 pm »
+4

My thoughts on Courtier:
A $5 card that provided $3 and +buy would compare favorably with Wine Merchant.
A $5 card that provided $3 and a Gold gain would compare very favorably with Explorer.
On most boards, Courtier is better than either of those cards, because it can trivially be either, or one of the other four combination of two options.  Occasionally, in the presence of cards with three or more types, it can be great (non-terminal $3 and buy is the safe combination, but sometimes the Gold gain is really valuable).  Even when it misses, it isn't horrible.  A terminal Gold or Gold-gainer is sometimes good enough, especially early in the game (when Courtier is more likely to miss).

Courtier is primarily a non-attack payload card, which tend to be unpopular, but it is one of the strongest in that category.  I think it might be around the power level of Merchant Guild, but time will tell.
But most cards with two types are actions, and you have to play Courtier first.  So a lot of the time you'd choose +1 Action, +$3 or possibly +1 Action, gain a gold.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #432 on: September 30, 2016, 12:49:29 pm »
0

In all of Dominion (post-second editions), there are:
180 cards with only one type.
73 cards with two types (counting Catapult and Tournament).
10 cards with three or more types (counting Castles).

Which are the 10 cards? I got 9: Swamp Hag, Bridge Troll, Haunted Woods, Knights, Cultist, Marauder, Caravan Guard, Distant Lands, Castles. (Plus Followers, Soldier and Warrior, which could count as 1/5 of a card each. But you include Followers as part of Tournament, and I assume all Traveller upgrades as parts of Page/Peasant.)

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #433 on: September 30, 2016, 12:58:10 pm »
0

But most cards with two types are actions, and you have to play Courtier first.  So a lot of the time you'd choose +1 Action, +$3 or possibly +1 Action, gain a gold.

True, only 6 of all the 84 cards with multiple types are not Action cards (pluss Hovel), and none of those 6 have 3 or more types.
You could also choose +1 Action, +1 Buy of course. That's one expensive Pawn though.

The thing Courtier has going for it, is its versatility though. It can be a Gold, gain you a Gold, or give you a buy. So in that sense it seems decent, nothing more. Maybe better in big money?

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #434 on: September 30, 2016, 01:23:59 pm »
+2

In all of Dominion (post-second editions), there are:
180 cards with only one type.
73 cards with two types (counting Catapult and Tournament).
10 cards with three or more types (counting Castles).

Which are the 10 cards? I got 9: Swamp Hag, Bridge Troll, Haunted Woods, Knights, Cultist, Marauder, Caravan Guard, Distant Lands, Castles.

Enchantress.
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mameluke

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #435 on: September 30, 2016, 01:34:17 pm »
0

Plus, the cards have to line up in the same hand -- and you might have played the other card first, drawing Courtier after. Not lining up the cards is probably better than e.g. Baron or Treasure Map but still reduces its effectiveness.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #436 on: September 30, 2016, 01:50:33 pm »
0

In all of Dominion (post-second editions), there are:
180 cards with only one type.
73 cards with two types (counting Catapult and Tournament).
10 cards with three or more types (counting Castles).

Which are the 10 cards? I got 9: Swamp Hag, Bridge Troll, Haunted Woods, Knights, Cultist, Marauder, Caravan Guard, Distant Lands, Castles.

Enchantress.

A-ha! There is a mistake in the card list on the wiki: http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Card_list
It lists Enchantress as "Action".

Seprix

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #437 on: September 30, 2016, 02:06:16 pm »
+1

Inheritance combos with Courtier. Have something silly like Enchantress, Inherit it, and now all of your Estates add the extra stuff in addition to the Victory card type.
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Donald X.

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #438 on: September 30, 2016, 05:11:19 pm »
+8

RGG has set this Monday as the date distributors can send stuff out.
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werothegreat

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #439 on: October 01, 2016, 01:36:57 am »
0

RGG has set this Monday as the date distributors can send stuff out.

Okay, I was confused on that.  By "send them out this past Monday" I thought that meant they'd be at FLGSs by now.  But they have to go to a secondary distributor first?
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #440 on: October 01, 2016, 03:25:45 am »
+4

RGG has set this Monday as the date distributors can send stuff out.

Okay, I was confused on that.  By "send them out this past Monday" I thought that meant they'd be at FLGSs by now.  But they have to go to a secondary distributor first?
ELM printed them! And sent them to RGG. And sent some copies to check to me, I have had those for a few weeks now.

RGG sent them to distributors, this last week.

Monday, distributors can sell them - directly (I assume in some cases, but what do I know about distributors), or to stores (who, I am only guessing but nothing else makes sense at all, can also sell them as of Monday, and may get them Monday in some cases).

I don't actually know when RGG sent how many copies to who. My understanding was RGG was sending stuff out last Monday, but I don't know if everything went out the same day. I don't know how long it takes the products to get to the farthest away places either; I have really zero information there and no desire to learn.

The idea is to sync people up so that someone isn't mad that some other store was selling the product ahead of theirs. That sync-up date is Monday. My best guess is that the reason it's a distributor date and not a store date is because distributors are in fact sometimes stores.
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Asper

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #441 on: October 02, 2016, 04:41:09 pm »
0

Diplomat is probably the worst of the replacement cards in my opinion. It's a bit confusing and has two inherently complex abilities. While it might be strong enough - another problem Secret Chamber had - it's not really better than it in terms of elegance.
About the best, i don't know. All do a very good job at replacing the original cards. I guess i like Mill because it's so pretty, but i have yet to play with it. I also like Bandit and pretty much all are better than the original. I also feel none of the old card ideas was completely lost, which is an effort that i appreciate. The cool thing is that now those ideas will actually matter.

For Lurker and Merchant, i'm not convinced they fit this early in the Dominion canon. Merchant would be fine in Intrigue, but Lurker seems like it belongs in Dark Ages. Probably this doesn't matter as much anymore now that all those expansions are available. Neither Intrigue nor Base need to play the role they played originally.

I agree with most of what you said, except that none of the old card ideas were lost. That's not the case at all. I assume you mean considering all cards across Dominion (otherwise even Adventurer is completely lost), in which case Coppersmith, Saboteur, Feast, and arguably Tribute are lost. For Coppersmith we have a little bit in Merchant maybe, and vaguely in Bank, but not really. For Feast, we have other cards that gain $5s, but none that are oneshots that cost less. For Saboteur there is nothing. For Tribute Courtier is pretty different, Ironmonger is actually closer (it can give you +2 Actions at least).

I'll try to elaborate what i mean.

Coppersmith and Merchant both increase the money you get from a specific Treasure. They play very different, but i never claimed they didn't. The main concept estays.
Saboteur trashes good cards from your opponents' decks. Knights also do that, but solve Saboteur's main problems: Being weak and trashing Provinces.
Feast can easily be replaced by Death Cart imo. Just that Death Cart can stay around and hit even more than $5. Close enough for me. Also, there are now Banquet and Ball, which also offer $5s for less money. Edit: Ball costs $5 and is kind of a reverse Feast, sorry 'bout that.
Tribute plays differently than Courier, but both implement the concept of rewarding you for types. Courier just has better control. I like that Lurker was added to include the player interaction Tribute used to offer.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2016, 08:54:16 am by Asper »
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LostPhoenix

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #442 on: October 02, 2016, 10:12:22 pm »
0

I'm not sure if someone has already mentioned this, but something I noticed is that the symbol/watermark for the second editions is different from the first.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #443 on: October 02, 2016, 10:53:42 pm »
+1

I'm not sure if someone has already mentioned this, but something I noticed is that the symbol/watermark for the second editions is different from the first.
That was mentioned by donald very early on in the discussion
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #444 on: October 03, 2016, 10:39:37 am »
0

Coppersmith and Merchant both increase the money you get from a specific Treasure. They play very different, but i never claimed they didn't. The main concept estays.
Saboteur trashes good cards from your opponents' decks. Knights also do that, but solve Saboteur's main problems: Being weak and trashing Provinces.
Feast can easily be replaced by Death Cart imo. Just that Death Cart can stay around and hit even more than $5. Close enough for me. Also, there are now Banquet and Ball, which also offer $5s for less money. Edit: Ball costs $5 and is kind of a reverse Feast, sorry 'bout that.
Tribute plays differently than Courier, but both implement the concept of rewarding you for types. Courier just has better control. I like that Lurker was added to include the player interaction Tribute used to offer.

I see what you mean, but to me these comparisons are too loose, because it means that these concept are already duplicated across Dominion many times over. We could remove like 80% of all cards without a "concept being lost". Of course by a certain way of looking at it, that's true, but to me that's not really relevant because I don't think most people would feel like nothing was lost if that happened.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2016, 11:12:24 am by Jeebus »
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #445 on: October 03, 2016, 03:42:49 pm »
+2

Both full versions are up on Amazon now. I bought both of them; I'm going to give the old games to friends.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #446 on: October 03, 2016, 04:19:30 pm »
0

For the 2nd editions, how many of the cards that were kept have changed art? It looks like moat got some color added to it. Are there others?

I only ordered the update packs, so I might be missing out on doing art ratings for other cards that were slightly altered. I'm just trying to get an idea of the scope of the art changes so I can decide how I want to deal with them in my art rankings.

Edit: I looked through the released instructions and didn't see any significant changes, but if anyone knows of any kept cards that got changed, please let me know.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2016, 04:23:55 pm by jamfamsam »
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #447 on: October 03, 2016, 04:28:20 pm »
0

Here's a thought: What if Vagrant and Lurker switched places? Would they match their sets more then? Vagrant can be scout-ish in cleaning up the top deck and picking up vp hybrids, and Lurker basically belongs in dark ages.
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Donald X.

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #448 on: October 03, 2016, 04:30:09 pm »
+1

For the 2nd editions, how many of the cards that were kept have changed art? It looks like moat got some color added to it. Are there others?
Moat is the only card with changed art in the 2E versions. Well not counting the base cards, which all have art now (and aren't identical to the base cards, including nudging down some of the VP card art in order to fit the VP). And not counting the trash.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #449 on: October 03, 2016, 04:31:48 pm »
0

For the 2nd editions, how many of the cards that were kept have changed art? It looks like moat got some color added to it. Are there others?
Moat is the only card with changed art in the 2E versions. Well not counting the base cards, which all have art now (and aren't identical to the base cards, including nudging down some of the VP card art in order to fit the VP). And not counting the trash.

Thanks. I won't feel like I need anything other than the update packs. Moat isn't that different, but it is nicer with the extra color.
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