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Author Topic: Dominion and Intrigue second editions  (Read 240842 times)

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brokoli

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #250 on: September 25, 2016, 05:02:16 am »
+1

Coppermisth…  :'( :'( :'(
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brokoli

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #251 on: September 25, 2016, 05:26:54 am »
+2

Seriously, I don't get it.
Dominion is a great game because there is no stated strategies, not every game of dominion is about trashing coppers and creating an engine.
Coppersmith was rather a weak card but there is nothing wrong about that. Bureaucrat is also a weak card, that has more text and that is harder to remember, yet it stays.
I will miss coppersmith / apothecary / bank combos so much. All the new cards are nice, but none is unique like coppersmith.

I feel very frustrated because that's the only card I will really miss. Well, not quite, I will also miss Saboteur a little. But I'm glad to see all the other go.
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kieranmillar

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #252 on: September 25, 2016, 05:53:30 am »
+3

The problem with Coppersmith was that was largely useless in the expansion that it was present in. Intrigue is an early expansion that I imagine many people tend to buy when their only other set is Base, and there are pretty much zero effective uses for coppersmith in Intrigue and Base.

So given that the early sets are more likely to be played in a situation where the pool of cards to choose from is at its lowest, it's much better all round to have the cards in Intrigue provide much more general purpose utility and variety. This way the expansion is more interesting at the time when it needs to provide the most impact. Coppersmith was simply too narrow and weak.
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Sten-Åke

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #253 on: September 25, 2016, 06:41:14 am »
+1

I feel the lack of Gardens-enablers worries me. I'm sad that thief goes. It was a good Gardens-enabler in 4p. It could have been tweaked to still do that, and not suck most of the other time. On top of that, we get a lot more engine-enablers. The new cards also cost more on average. Artisan is very likely to stop a Gardens-centered strategy cold rather than help it. Outside of a Workshop-Gardens combo, will Gardens be relegated to consolidation price status in the base set? That would be a shame for such a cool card. Not everyone who picks up the base set, even today, will go on and buy other expansions.

Yes, I'm a slogger at heart. Thief-Gardens in a 4p game was my first win and then I was hooked. I will miss that combo.  :'(
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brokoli

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #254 on: September 25, 2016, 06:47:24 am »
+1

The problem with Coppersmith was that was largely useless in the expansion that it was present in. Intrigue is an early expansion that I imagine many people tend to buy when their only other set is Base, and there are pretty much zero effective uses for coppersmith in Intrigue and Base.

So given that the early sets are more likely to be played in a situation where the pool of cards to choose from is at its lowest, it's much better all round to have the cards in Intrigue provide much more general purpose utility and variety. This way the expansion is more interesting at the time when it needs to provide the most impact. Coppersmith was simply too narrow and weak.
That's a good point. As someone who always play all set mixed anyway, I deplore that dominion cards depends so much on the expansion they are in. Like, Cultist is a broken card I would be glad to see updated, but it is neither from base game nor from intrigue…
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kieranmillar

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #255 on: September 25, 2016, 07:01:59 am »
+3

I feel the lack of Gardens-enablers worries me. I'm sad that thief goes. It was a good Gardens-enabler in 4p. It could have been tweaked to still do that, and not suck most of the other time. On top of that, we get a lot more engine-enablers. The new cards also cost more on average. Artisan is very likely to stop a Gardens-centered strategy cold rather than help it. Outside of a Workshop-Gardens combo, will Gardens be relegated to consolidation price status in the base set? That would be a shame for such a cool card. Not everyone who picks up the base set, even today, will go on and buy other expansions.

Yes, I'm a slogger at heart. Thief-Gardens in a 4p game was my first win and then I was hooked. I will miss that combo.  :'(
Honestly I think the addition of Artisan and a bunch of cantrips will help Gardens rather than hurt it. Gaining Festivals and Markets is really good for gardens based strategies and cantrips are nice anyway.

The problem Base had before was that Gardens was usually its own thing rather than adding to other strategies. Much of the time you went Workshop + Gardens or you never bothered with gardens, but now Gardens have the opportunity to be complementary to other strategies so is all round more useful, because you can now much more easily bloat your deck with useful stuff rather than a bunch of crappy stop cards.
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SCSN

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #256 on: September 25, 2016, 07:18:34 am »
+9

Imagine my excitement when I first heard about this tremendous opportunity to do the right thing... and the ensuing disappointment upon learning that Swindler was still there :(
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faust

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #257 on: September 25, 2016, 07:23:10 am »
+13

Imagine my excitement when I first heard about this tremendous opportunity to do the right thing... and the ensuing disappointment upon learning that Swindler was still there :(
Also, Silver is still in the Base game!
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #258 on: September 25, 2016, 07:24:30 am »
+2

How do you feel about all these new cards requiring you to play Silver, SCSN?
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #259 on: September 25, 2016, 08:14:58 am »
+10

I'm happy that Silver's weakness was recognized and it's now getting all these buffs.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #260 on: September 25, 2016, 08:42:43 am »
+6

Seriously, I don't get it.
Dominion is a great game because there is no stated strategies, not every game of dominion is about trashing coppers and creating an engine.
Coppersmith was rather a weak card but there is nothing wrong about that. Bureaucrat is also a weak card, that has more text and that is harder to remember, yet it stays.
I will miss coppersmith / apothecary / bank combos so much. All the new cards are nice, but none is unique like coppersmith.

This is all well and good, but the problem with the base set is that there weren't *enough* engine enablers to begin with. Almost every campaign game on MF with Council Room in it is going to be BM+CR. Big Money is just too strong in the first edition, and that leads to players thinking Dominion is just a boring game of buying Treasures.
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brokoli

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #261 on: September 25, 2016, 08:43:38 am »
+3

Thoughts on base game :
Removed -
Adventurer : Fine, it was too weak and even when it shined it wasn't that interesting anyway. Venture is the fixed version.
Spy : Not interesting, too annoying, it was a nice cantrip for conspirator but we have ton of those
Thief : Too weak and i'm glad with the corrected versions anyway (noble brigand has more flavor than bandit though)
Feast : I like feast, all cards don't have to be game-changers. But I can live without
Chancellor : We have messenger and Scavenger now, so it's ok to lose it. I liked the "puzzler" thing.
Woodcutter : No love for this card. I liked its simplicity, that's all.

New -
Artisan : Great, I like cards that gain things in hand, it creates interesting tactic decisions.
Bandit : I'm not so fond of gold-gainers, I'm the kind of guy who often skip gold just to buy more engine pieces. But why not.
Sentry : I like the trash/discard choice, if i remember correctly, lookout is the only other card who does that. Good spy variant.
Poacher : Interesting. I don't think this discard thing will hurt very often (late game, so can discard victory cards easily) so I guess this will be rarely more than peddler.
Harbinger : I would've like this card to be named "pearl diver"
Vassal : Interesting simpler version of herald

Overall I think Donald did a good job at designing simple cards that still link to the old ones. Maybe we needed another garden enabler, because workshop is a little bit boring.
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allanfieldhouse

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #262 on: September 25, 2016, 09:44:14 am »
+3

Quote
Sentry Action $5
+1 Card
+1 Action
Look at the top 2 cards of your deck.
Trash and/or discard any number of them.
Put the rest back in any order.

On first glance, I love Sentry. I initially wanted to compare it to other cantrip trashers like Junk Dealer and Upgrade, but I don't think those comparisons work that well because of the differences between "trash from hand" vs "trash from deck".

So the obvious "trash from deck" comparison is Lookout. The thing that bothers me about Lookout is the forced aspect of the choices. Sentry solves that by making all of the choices optional. And it's a cantrip. And you can trash 2 cards with it. And after you're done trashing, it's a mini-Cartographer.

The one comparison I do really like with Junk Dealer and Upgrade is the worst-case scenario. The worst case for Sentry is that it's a cantrip. Worst case for the other 2 is they trash your Colony.

Overall, I think this card will be a power-trasher that retains its usefulness in the late game through its sifting ability. I think this will be ranked very high on the $5 card list.
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Chris is me

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #263 on: September 25, 2016, 10:09:09 am »
+5

Removing Coppersmith wasn't for you. It wasn't because it didn't have a niche engine case. The problem is that it's such a trap card for new and casual players, and it's really a lot harder to work with than it looks, so people get suckered into buying it, and it's skipped most games.

All of these changes make Dominion better, even if the replacements don't do the same things in all cases. If this was the Base Set my friends and I played with, more of them would have been hooked and would stop thinking of Dominion as a "solved" game.

Imagine my excitement when I first heard about this tremendous opportunity to do the right thing... and the ensuing disappointment upon learning that Swindler was still there :(

On first read through, I missed Swindler still being in the game and I got up and cheered. I actually ran around the room excited that this terrible, swingy card was removed from the game. But then I saw it was still there.

It's probably okay design wise, but I never enjoy playing it. It's just something you have to do and then your deck has no stability.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2016, 10:11:37 am by Chris is me »
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #264 on: September 25, 2016, 10:11:08 am »
+1

I feel the lack of Gardens-enablers worries me. I'm sad that thief goes. It was a good Gardens-enabler in 4p. It could have been tweaked to still do that, and not suck most of the other time. On top of that, we get a lot more engine-enablers. The new cards also cost more on average. Artisan is very likely to stop a Gardens-centered strategy cold rather than help it. Outside of a Workshop-Gardens combo, will Gardens be relegated to consolidation price status in the base set? That would be a shame for such a cool card. Not everyone who picks up the base set, even today, will go on and buy other expansions.

Yes, I'm a slogger at heart. Thief-Gardens in a 4p game was my first win and then I was hooked. I will miss that combo.  :'(

Well, maybe playing engines is way more fun than playing a boring ol' slog game. If you love Thief that much, nobody is stopping you from playing with it. Donald has said himself that you can play with replaced cards if you so choose.

Coppersmith will be back in some form, I would imagine. All it really needed was a +buy, and it would be a lot better.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #265 on: September 25, 2016, 11:04:51 am »
+1

Ha, i predicted the removed cards correctly, hooray. I'm a bit surprised by cards playing cards from your deck and cards giving money when you play another card in base, but in general i don't really have an opinion on the new cards yet.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #266 on: September 25, 2016, 11:08:27 am »
+4

Ha, i predicted the removed cards correctly, hooray. I'm a bit surprised by cards playing cards from your deck and cards giving money when you play another card in base, but in general i don't really have an opinion on the new cards yet.

I think it more clearly establishes the whole thing where playing cards only takes an action if prompted. It's nice that the ability is on a terminal action to make this super obvious.
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Mr Anderson

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #267 on: September 25, 2016, 11:09:43 am »
+3

I like that there still is no card strictly better than the removed one at the same cost, Great Hall might look even sadder besides Mill, but that is about it. Bandit can't steal Kingdom Treasures and Platinum but kind of pales Thief in comparison (which card doesn't, though).
Thanks for the new cards, they look interesting as all new cards do. Again, you can just praise the Donald X's work.

Btw, the extra and in the Base Set as well as more non-terminals look good, however, I would have preferred an extra plain +buy card over the extra gainer.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2016, 11:13:22 am by Mr Anderson »
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brokoli

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #268 on: September 25, 2016, 11:22:18 am »
+1

I don't know in which thread I have to post my thoughts, nevermind.
About Intrigue :
Removed -
Secret chamber : SC was always a weird card, certainly not an uninteresting one, but both part could have been stronger. The reaction was sometimes useful but never really exciting. And the relation between the action and reaction part exists (trading bad cards for another thing) but not so much obvious. I'm pleased that Donald used SC's concepts for new cards.
Great Hall : I like Great hall in the same way I like Pearl Diver. Both are never more than slightly useful, but they are never useless. Of course, they can hurt in some decks. If in every dominion game we had 10 game-changing card, it would be too much. So I think there were no need to remove Great Hall. But now, I'm happy with Mill.
Coppersmith:'(
Scout : I'm very happy with the new fixed version of scout. It's very different now that it's a terminal card, but the spirit is not lost.
Saboteur : I think Saboteur is quite a high-skill card, but I agree that it was too often useless. I would have liked a slightly improved saboteur, but losing saboteur is not the end of the world.
Tribute : Tribute was too swingy, otherwise I think the design idea was really great. I'm not very satisfied with Courtier.

New cards :

Courtier : The thing is, it's too easy. You just reveal the card that has the most types, but there is no difference between revealing a harem or a militia, in contrary to the old tribute. I think it lacks of interesting decisions. I would have loved a card that said "reveal a card from your hand, if it's a [card type], you get [bonus], etc for all card types" that would fix the thing I dislike from tribute (randomness) and at the same time creates more interesting decisions.
Patrol : Love this new scout.
Replace : That's an unexpected new remodel. You may want to gain estates only for the junk part. I like it.
Diplomat : Seems awesome against hand-reducers, and hand-reducers tend to be sometimes quite boring, so I really like this card. I think activating the village effect will be almost as satisfying as revealing a hand without duplicates with menagerie. And I like how it's kind of the opposite of shanty town.
Mill : Mixing great hall and secret chamber was a clever idea.
Secret passage : I fear that this may slow down the game a lot, when played in chain. And I think "putting anywhere in your deck" will, in practice, mean either the top either the bottom of the deck. So I think I don't like it so much.
Lurker : I think I like it. It could be quite strong in games with TfB (replace!), otherwise if you manage to play it two times in a turn, which won't be so hard I guess, it could be very powerful.

I think unlike base game, there were no particular need to update Intrigue. Only Scout and Secret chamber were the bad-designed cards IMO (maybe tribute too because it scales too much on the number of players wrong). I'm a bit disappointed by courtier and secret passage, but maybe I will enjoy them after all. Otherwise, nice new cards.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2016, 11:38:45 am by brokoli »
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Aleimon Thimble

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #269 on: September 25, 2016, 11:37:05 am »
0

Mill might lead to a couple of bad jokes, by the way. Something along the lines of 'Mill sucks, it doesn't actually mill', or something. I'm sure someone will come up with something more witty.
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werothegreat

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #270 on: September 25, 2016, 11:44:48 am »
+2

Best part about Sentry: unlike Spy, it actually synergizes with Wishing Well, Herald, etc.

Strategy question: when do you buy Cartographer over Sentry?
« Last Edit: September 25, 2016, 11:46:21 am by werothegreat »
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #271 on: September 25, 2016, 11:50:55 am »
0

Imagine my excitement when I first heard about this tremendous opportunity to do the right thing... and the ensuing disappointment upon learning that Swindler was still there :(

On first read through, I missed Swindler still being in the game and I got up and cheered. I actually ran around the room excited that this terrible, swingy card was removed from the game. But then I saw it was still there.

This happened to me with Chapel. Except I didn't actually run around the room.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #272 on: September 25, 2016, 11:53:21 am »
+1

Strategy question: when do you buy Cartographer over Sentry?

When you've already trashed down, so the trashing function of Sentry is moot. If you don't need the trashing, Cartographer is better because it sees more cards. I guess you might actually need neither of those cards in most of those situations, though, so Cartographer becomes a bit more niche than it already was...
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #273 on: September 25, 2016, 12:11:09 pm »
0

I'm happy that Silver's weakness was recognized and it's now getting all these buffs.

I agree. I was hoping Swindler would get removed. I've had too many games destroyed because of that card. Toning the attacks in Intrigue one step further would have been a good thing.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #274 on: September 25, 2016, 12:24:27 pm »
0

Coppersmith, Thief, etc. had some interesting cases where they would shine but the cards themselves did not work as printed. I'm hoping their abilities will show up in some future card that people actually buy (kind of like Venture was to Adventurer).
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