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[tristan]

Getting Scout to work could be as simple as giving it +1 Card.

That would make a weak card into a crazily overpowered card.

Eh, I'd doubt it. It'll look like a net lab often, but the cards drawn are still useless. Same problem as vagrant, although that one's a 2 cost. Although the similarity to vagrant means that that change isn't a very appealing one.

It'll actually be pretty similar to Apoth too, but again it's drawing estates most of the time instead of coppers.

So? You still gotta draw through your green stuff. ^^
A Lab for 4 is brilliant. A Double Lab (happens often enough, with cantrip Scouts you do not even have to trash your Estates) for 4 is cwazy. And deck-rearrangement is a cherry on top of all that very sweet cake.

When would you ever not open with a cantrip Scout? And if you play Intrigue only with all that Victory cards Scout would be even more kick-ass.

All of this is kinda like with Cellar. Cellar is OK at 2 whereas a cantrip Cellar would easily be a 4 or 5.

Scout isn't always a Lab even if you gave it +1 Card, in a lot of decks it would still be pretty mediocre if there's any decent Estate trashing.

You are right. In the beginning Cantrip Scout is quite likely to be a Double Lab. For 4. Taking about cwazy squared.

Cantrip Scout isn't just extremely overpowered in combination with Great Hall but with virtually any hybrid Victory card.

[singletee]

I just now saw this, and haven't read any of the replies yet, so I'm sure that this has been said already....

NO MORE MASQ PINS!! 

I know that a lot of people will like them, but as someone who really likes "alternate win conditions", I think a setup that allows a Masq pin makes for a fun game.

Now there's a separate question about if old cards are considered to have errata or not. If my physical Throne Room doesn't say "you may", should I still play as if it did to be fully following the rules of Dominion? Similar to how MTG has the Oracle card wordings, and what's printed on the card doesn't matter? (Unless you have R&D's Secret Lair in play, of course).

We already have cards that play differently from how they are written (Possession, Black Market, Pirate Ship, Envoy), so from that precedent it would seem that the "correct" way would be to play the cards as errataed. Of course the real correct way is to play them however your playgroup enjoys and agrees upon.

[ThetaSigma12]

Will the wiki be updated?

[werothegreat]

Will the wiki be updated?

As soon as the rules are up.

[Asper]

Getting Scout to work could be as simple as giving it +1 Card.

That would make a weak card into a crazily overpowered card.

Eh, I'd doubt it. It'll look like a net lab often, but the cards drawn are still useless. Same problem as vagrant, although that one's a 2 cost. Although the similarity to vagrant means that that change isn't a very appealing one.

It'll actually be pretty similar to Apoth too, but again it's drawing estates most of the time instead of coppers.

So? You still gotta draw through your green stuff. ^^
A Lab for 4 is brilliant. A Double Lab (happens often enough, with cantrip Scouts you do not even have to trash your Estates) for 4 is cwazy. And deck-rearrangement is a cherry on top of all that very sweet cake.

When would you ever not open with a cantrip Scout? And if you play Intrigue only with all that Victory cards Scout would be even more kick-ass.

All of this is kinda like with Cellar. Cellar is OK at 2 whereas a cantrip Cellar would easily be a 4 or 5.

Scout isn't always a Lab even if you gave it +1 Card, in a lot of decks it would still be pretty mediocre if there's any decent Estate trashing.

You are right. In the beginning Cantrip Scout is quite likely to be a Double Lab. For 4. Taking about cwazy squared.

Cantrip Scout isn't just extremely overpowered in combination with Great Hall but with virtually any hybrid Victory card.

It might be too good for $4, but it's just a different Cartographer, rmost of the time. Assuming the absence of hybrid victory cards, it just keeps the junk in hand to trash it or keep it out of the shuffle, but on the other hand it doesn't do anything about Curses, Ruins or Copper. I will prefer a Cartographer in games with Cursers, or to speed up cycling. Surely cantrip-Scout has a fine synergy with the few hybrid-vp there are (although i assume Great Hall won't make it, it's practically replaced already). But such exist with a lot of cards. Ironmonger for example is already strong and gets even stronger with hybrids, still nobody complains about that. Cartographer can trigger Tunnels. Surely cantrip-Scout looks like it's too close to Cartographer to cost $4, but that's already it in my opinion. If anything, i'd be worried that getting a lot of them will basically allow you to just green all the time, but, i guess that's kind of the idea behind it in the first place?

[Limetime]

I think scout will be completely demolished and be replaced with a different card.

[J Reggie]

I just now saw this, and haven't read any of the replies yet, so I'm sure that this has been said already....

NO MORE MASQ PINS!! 

I know that a lot of people will like them, but as someone who really likes "alternate win conditions", I think a setup that allows a Masq pin makes for a fun game.

Now there's a separate question about if old cards are considered to have errata or not. If my physical Throne Room doesn't say "you may", should I still play as if it did to be fully following the rules of Dominion? Similar to how MTG has the Oracle card wordings, and what's printed on the card doesn't matter? (Unless you have R&D's Secret Lair in play, of course).

That's not entirely true, it's just harder. You can still do like a Masq/Cutpurse pin or a Masq/Bureaucrat pin.

[Seprix]

I think scout will be completely demolished and be replaced with a different card.

I concur. Scout will never exist in any form again. It's just a terrible idea in retrospect. Sorry, RR. It had to be said. I understand that now your life has no purpose. But that's okay. You can always find a new purpose. For example, Transmute needs a protector.

[sudgy]

I still think the simplest fix to Scout is making it cost $2.

[Marcory]

Even then, I'd usually buy Vagrant, Cellar, or Crossroads over a Scout. By the time I've got enough green for Scout's ability to outweigh theirs, I'm probably starting to think about buying Estates with my hands.

[Awaclus]

I still think the simplest fix to Scout is making it cost $2.

That still doesn't fix the problem that you almost never want to have Scout in your deck even if it's for no cost at all.

[LibraryAdventurer]

What's wrong with Harem? It's my mom's favorite card. Maybe it could use new artwork, but otherwise I hope it stays.
I'm looking forward to seeing the new cards in general, but especially Secret Chamber's replacement. I think the reaction is really neat, even though the card overall is too weak. I expect a fun improvement on the idea.

[trivialknot]

You could probably fix Scout and Secret Chamber by combining them.  Have its reaction be identical to Secret Chamber, and when you play it, it's a terminal Scout followed by Secret Chamber.

[tristan]

Getting Scout to work could be as simple as giving it +1 Card.

That would make a weak card into a crazily overpowered card.

Eh, I'd doubt it. It'll look like a net lab often, but the cards drawn are still useless. Same problem as vagrant, although that one's a 2 cost. Although the similarity to vagrant means that that change isn't a very appealing one.

It'll actually be pretty similar to Apoth too, but again it's drawing estates most of the time instead of coppers.

So? You still gotta draw through your green stuff. ^^
A Lab for 4 is brilliant. A Double Lab (happens often enough, with cantrip Scouts you do not even have to trash your Estates) for 4 is cwazy. And deck-rearrangement is a cherry on top of all that very sweet cake.

When would you ever not open with a cantrip Scout? And if you play Intrigue only with all that Victory cards Scout would be even more kick-ass.

All of this is kinda like with Cellar. Cellar is OK at 2 whereas a cantrip Cellar would easily be a 4 or 5.

Scout isn't always a Lab even if you gave it +1 Card, in a lot of decks it would still be pretty mediocre if there's any decent Estate trashing.

You are right. In the beginning Cantrip Scout is quite likely to be a Double Lab. For 4. Taking about cwazy squared.

Cantrip Scout isn't just extremely overpowered in combination with Great Hall but with virtually any hybrid Victory card.

It might be too good for $4, but it's just a different Cartographer, rmost of the time.

The comparison with Cartographer seems obvious but Cantrip Scout is more of a conditional (Double-)Lab with deck rearrangement whereas Cartographer is a sifter with deck rearrangment.
I totally agree that Cartographer is better than Cantrip Scout at 5$ in the absence of alternative Victory cards and in the presence of junkers. But with Cantrip Scout costing 4$ it is a different ballgame.

[Aleimon Thimble]

Scout+ is as much of a conditional Lab as Vagrant is. Sure, Scout+ is stronger because it can potentially draw more than 1 card, but that card is not going to be very useful for your hand (edge cases like Great Hall aside), it just improves your next hand. It's also weaker than Cartographer, because it really doesn't matter at all if your green is in your hand or in your discard pile (again, edge cases aside), but Carto at least gets to discard Coppers and other unwanted cards as well. Anyway, Vagrant and Cartographer aren't power cards, and Scout+ is somewhere in between them both cost-wise and power-wise, so I'm fairly sure Scout+ wasn't going to be overpowered.

Then again, to be honest this discussion is likely moot because I don't think Scout+ is going to be in the new Intrigue.

[tristan]

Ehm, both Cartographer and Cantrip Scout improve your next draw / hand. You'd rather have the green in your hands than discard pile if there are discard for benefit cards and if there are alt-VP Cantrip Scout becomes obviously crazy.

I would virtually always open with Cantrip Scout. Hell, a potential double Lab for a mere 4? Sign me in.

[drsteelhammer]

Ehm, both Cartographer and Cantrip Scout improve your next draw / hand. You'd rather have the green in your hands than discard pile if there are discard for benefit cards and if there are alt-VP Cantrip Scout becomes obviously crazy.

I would virtually always open with Cantrip Scout. Hell, a potential double Lab for a mere 4? Sign me in.

Have you played with Menagerie?

[Aleimon Thimble]

Ehm, both Cartographer and Cantrip Scout improve your next draw / hand. You'd rather have the green in your hands than discard pile if there are discard for benefit cards and if there are alt-VP Cantrip Scout becomes obviously crazy.

I would virtually always open with Cantrip Scout. Hell, a potential double Lab for a mere 4? Sign me in.

I'd still open any $4 trasher over Scout+ on a big engine board, and Silver is still better than Scout+ for BM. Scout+ is still pretty mediocre on boards without discard for benefit or functional alt-VP.

And remember, like I said before, a card is allowed to be crazy under certain conditions. Hermit is not OP just because it has a crazy combo with Market Square, nor is Counting House broken because Travelling Fair is a thing. Besides, I'd say these two things are still way more crazy than Scout+/Great Hall or Scout+/Vault or something.

[Holger]

Ehm, both Cartographer and Cantrip Scout improve your next draw / hand. You'd rather have the green in your hands than discard pile if there are discard for benefit cards and if there are alt-VP Cantrip Scout becomes obviously crazy.

I would virtually always open with Cantrip Scout. Hell, a potential double Lab for a mere 4? Sign me in.

It's just as likely to be a do-nothing cantrip as a double Lab. Even if you open with it, by the time you first play it (T3-5), at best one fourth of your cards will usually be green (and the percentage of green cards keeps decreasing until the endgame). So on average you draw one random card and one green card, which (in the absence of hybrid cards) is about as good as Caravan (in both cases it's a cantrip this turn, and you draw one more potentially useful card next turn). So reasonable at $4 IMO. Strong with alt-VP cards, weak with Estate trashing.

A more interesting (IMO) Scout fix would be to allow drawing a card AFTER revealing, if no green was revealed. I'm not sure if this would be stronger or weaker than cantrip Scout - how good is choosing which revealed card to draw?

[ghostofmars]

If you compare cantrip Scout to another conditional Lab (Wishing Well), I don't think cantrip Scout is much stronger.

After the first reshuffle both cantrip Scout and Wishing Well have the highest chance to hit. With 11 other cards in the deck, the chances to hit n extra draw are

Code: [Select]

n  cantrip Scout  Wishing Well
0       21.2%         36.4%
1       50.9%         63.6%
2+      27.9%          0.0%So cantrip Scout is a bit better, but I don't think it would dominate. The problem that it doesn't do anything for your current hand would remain.

[tailred]

So cantrip Scout is a bit better, but I don't think it would dominate. The problem that it doesn't do anything for your current hand would remain.

Exactly, which I why I feel like repeatedly calling it a 'double-lab' is a really disingenuous way of arguing this case.

[Burning Skull]

[ThetaSigma12]

No rulebook. Sigh.

[GendoIkari]

I am sl excited to get around 12 new cards and the disappearance of 12 cards of which I am sure at least 10 of them are bad.

We're actually getting 14 new cards

What do you mean by this? It's 6 from each set right?

[singletee]

I am sl excited to get around 12 new cards and the disappearance of 12 cards of which I am sure at least 10 of them are bad.

We're actually getting 14 new cards

What do you mean by this? It's 6 from each set right?

In each set we are getting 7 new cards and losing 6 cards and the blanks.