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Author Topic: Dominion and Intrigue second editions  (Read 240882 times)

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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2016, 05:30:31 pm »
+5

For those who don't want to (or can't) follow the link:

Quote from: Jay Tummelson
We have decided it is time to given Dominion (and Intrigue) a facelift. Accordingly, we have created new covers and replaced a few cards in each game to make them even more interesting and fun to play. For those who already have these games, we are offering upgrade packs that contain the new cards so players who do not want to buy a whole new game for these new cards can get just the new cards. In addition to new cards and covers, we have cleaned up the rules and card text to eliminate confusion. We have also removed the extra Base Cards from Intrigue, which will reduce the cost; players who want to play with 5-6 players can still get the Base Cards set for the extra cards needed. With Dominion, second edition, we have changed the Base cards to artwork similar to that found previously in Base Cards.

The games have been produced and we expect to begin shipping them to distributors next week.

Jay
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2016, 05:31:50 pm »
0

Hmm, I'm wondering what these new cards might be!

SCSN

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2016, 05:35:14 pm »
+22

Q: Will the new cards be available online? If so, when?

A: Yes. At launch.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2016, 05:36:26 pm »
+2

Also, now we know why the empires rulebook mentioned the first edition of intrigue.

AdrianHealey

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2016, 05:39:54 pm »
0

Let's make bets on which cards change and how!
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2016, 05:41:24 pm »
0

I've known about this for a while. But it looks like it finally happened
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2016, 05:42:06 pm »
+1

Sweet!!! Yay!
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2016, 05:42:44 pm »
0

I'm guessing Throne Room gets errata
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2016, 05:45:04 pm »
0

Now, the real question is are we getting Events.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2016, 05:55:50 pm »
+1

I'm also guessing Chancellor, Sab and Adventurer are out
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2016, 05:57:36 pm »
+1

I'm also guessing Chancellor, Sab and Adventurer are out

Scout becomes a village, chancellor because a treasure for $4 or $5, adventurer gets a +buy and cost reduction (or draws 3 treasures?), saboteur seems unsalvagable.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2016, 06:07:17 pm »
0

It sounds like the upgrade pack only has the new cards, not the cards with updated text.  Does anyone know if that is, in fact, the case?
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Donald X.

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2016, 06:15:09 pm »
+28

Cross-posting!

I will post a Secret History when the cards are available, going over all of the changes and the new cards. For now though here is a list of the changes:

For each of Dominion and Intrigue:
- Six cards replaced with new cards
- One additional new card added (replacing blanks)
- Other cards changed to have better phrasings (that are functionally the same).
- Rulebooks improved
- New cards also available as a separate small product (with new inlay, but no tray or rulebook) - Dominion Update Pack, Intrigue Update Pack.
- Cover art changed, and "Second Edition" added
- Expansion symbol changed

Additionally for Dominion:
- Three cards changed very mildly ("you may" added to Moneylender, Mine, Throne Room)
- Base cards improved with art (like Base Cards but better)
- A trash playmat rather than card

Additionally for Intrigue:
- One card changed mildly (Masquerade skips players with no cards in hand)
- Base cards dropped

Those changes are only for Dominion and Intrigue; other sets are not getting new cards. However all sets prior to Empires are getting general rulebook and card layout improvements, whenever new printings are ordered (Empires already has these changes, so you can go see how you like them there right now).

The different kinds of changes:
- Some wordings are improved to be clearer / simpler.
- We now use "they" instead of "he."
- A bigger font is used on cards that can use it.
- +Cards etc. in the body of the text are in bold.
- Layout will be more consistent and have better text centering etc.

The Update Packs contain just the new cards and a replacement inlay, in a small box. There's one for Dominion and one for Intrigue, each with 7 new cards (80 physical cards total). We don't really know what the demand for them will be, and in the long term we won't have them (since anyone buying those sets new will get the new cards), but they exist for now so that people who want the new cards don't have to re-buy Dominion or Intrigue to get them.

New versions of Base Cards will have the updated base cards; I don't know when exactly that gets reprinted though. The Big Box will also be updated.
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Donald X.

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2016, 06:23:51 pm »
+6

It sounds like the upgrade pack only has the new cards, not the cards with updated text.  Does anyone know if that is, in fact, the case?
Yes, only the new cards.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2016, 06:28:34 pm »
+3

This is awesome!

This is the best part:

Quote from: Jay
The games have been produced and we expect to begin shipping them to distributors next week.

So annoying getting exciting news only to find out it's not happening for 6-12 months.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2016, 06:33:12 pm »
0

So I guess the big question is do you get both full sets out just the update packs. I'm leaning towards the full sets because I'm a nerd.

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2016, 06:33:55 pm »
+10

I've known about this for a while. But it looks like it finally happened

Did Donald X contact you to personally apologize for killing Scout?

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2016, 06:36:14 pm »
+7

Q: Will the new cards be available online? If so, when?

A: Yes. At launch.

Will the old cards be available?
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2016, 06:38:30 pm »
+1

Are the new cards complex or are they lame?
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2016, 06:42:41 pm »
0

Need more info!
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2016, 06:43:36 pm »
+1

We as a community are like family waiting outside for a new child to be born,
I mean parents are pretty handsome, all the previous children were great,
this one is so sudden though

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2016, 06:48:33 pm »
+5

We as a community are like family waiting outside for a new child to be born,
I mean parents are pretty handsome, all the previous children were great,
this one is so sudden though

More like an 18 yr old knocking on your door you never knew about..."Daddy!"
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2016, 06:49:31 pm »
0

I kinda wished that Masq skipped players with less than 4 cards in hand, since I find the Militia/Masq combo to be one of the most evil things to do to an opponent in Dominion.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2016, 06:52:26 pm »
+1

So I guess the big question is do you get both full sets out just the update packs. I'm leaning towards the full sets because I'm a nerd.

Definitely the full sets.  Gotta have that trash mat.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #25 on: September 21, 2016, 06:54:36 pm »
0

I kinda wished that Masq skipped players with less than 4 cards in hand, since I find the Militia/Masq combo to be one of the most evil things to do to an opponent in Dominion.

Hve you played the kings court-kings court-goons-masquarade-masquarade combo?
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Donald X.

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #26 on: September 21, 2016, 06:54:51 pm »
+2

Q: Will the new cards be available online? If so, when?

A: Yes. At launch.

Will the old cards be available?
I don't know, but there is a greater chance that the Intrigue ones will be available than the Dominion ones, because people bought Intrigue but not Dominion.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2016, 06:56:38 pm »
0

So I guess the big question is do you get both full sets out just the update packs. I'm leaning towards the full sets because I'm a nerd.

The real question is, do I go out and buy first edition Intrigue while I still can, or let the chance to own Scout slip forever through my fingers?
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #28 on: September 21, 2016, 06:57:12 pm »
+8

We as a community are like family waiting outside for a new child to be born,
I mean parents are pretty handsome, all the previous children were great,
this one is so sudden though

More like an 18 yr old knocking on your door you never knew about..."Daddy!"

How do you even have a door that you don't know about?
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #29 on: September 21, 2016, 06:58:22 pm »
+26

RIP Scout
2009-2016
He tried his best to be the worst card and succeeded
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #30 on: September 21, 2016, 07:00:01 pm »
0

I kinda wished that Masq skipped players with less than 4 cards in hand, since I find the Militia/Masq combo to be one of the most evil things to do to an opponent in Dominion.

Hve you played the kings court-kings court-goons-masquarade-masquarade combo?

That hardly ever comes up. Hand reduction and Masquerade is fairly common. I know it's part of the game, but Masquerade in general can be extremely frustrating if you have nothing bad to pass.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #31 on: September 21, 2016, 07:00:34 pm »
0

I see no information that Scout is dead.  Why is everyone assuming that?
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #32 on: September 21, 2016, 07:02:31 pm »
+4

I see no information that Scout is dead.  Why is everyone assuming that?

- Six cards replaced with new cards

I mean I don't think he got rid of Upgrade or Courtyard.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #33 on: September 21, 2016, 07:08:11 pm »
0

So, gotta be Adventurer, Chancellor, Spy, Thief, B-crat, Feast from Base, and Scout, Saboteur, ... Coppersmith? Secret Chamber? I really don't know from Intrigue what's gone. Maybe Bridge now has "While this is in play...".
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #34 on: September 21, 2016, 07:11:08 pm »
0

Maybe Bridge now has "While this is in play...".

I doubt it. I know Donald said that he likes how it is but it would be too crazy if they were all like that. Of course I could be totally wrong. This was when he was debating whether to include the clause on Bridge troll.

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #35 on: September 21, 2016, 07:19:13 pm »
+9

Maybe Bridge now has "While this is in play...".
It does not.

The four changes I listed are I believe the only functional changes; I would have included Bridge on the list if it had that change, because that's a real (minor) functional difference, like the new "you may" on Moneylender.

The other wording changes are non-functional things, like saying "they" instead of "he."
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #36 on: September 21, 2016, 07:24:24 pm »
0

Maybe Bridge now has "While this is in play...".
It does not.

The four changes I listed are I believe the only functional changes; I would have included Bridge on the list if it had that change, because that's a real (minor) functional difference, like the new "you may" on Moneylender.

The other wording changes are non-functional things, like saying "they" instead of "he."

What are the new cards going to be?
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #37 on: September 21, 2016, 07:26:55 pm »
0

Maybe Bridge now has "While this is in play...".
It does not.

The four changes I listed are I believe the only functional changes; I would have included Bridge on the list if it had that change, because that's a real (minor) functional difference, like the new "you may" on Moneylender.

The other wording changes are non-functional things, like saying "they" instead of "he."

What are the new cards going to be?

They're…new cards. Hopefully the rules will go up online soon and you can see them then.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #38 on: September 21, 2016, 07:32:33 pm »
+4

Maybe Bridge now has "While this is in play...".
It does not.

The four changes I listed are I believe the only functional changes; I would have included Bridge on the list if it had that change, because that's a real (minor) functional difference, like the new "you may" on Moneylender.

The other wording changes are non-functional things, like saying "they" instead of "he."

What are the new cards going to be?

Plot twist: they're all scout variants. Roadrunner was on the playtesting team.  :D

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #39 on: September 21, 2016, 08:04:41 pm »
+6

canonically, will the errata on mine, throne room, and moneylender apply retroactively? will the police come if i tell my friend that she has to play an action if she has one when she plays throne room
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #40 on: September 21, 2016, 08:06:17 pm »
+11

canonically, will the errata on mine, throne room, and moneylender apply retroactively? will the police come if i tell my friend that she has to play an action if she has one when she plays throne room

You'll wish the police had come after what really happens.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #41 on: September 21, 2016, 08:18:02 pm »
+3

Maybe Bridge now has "While this is in play...".
It does not.


Huzzah!  This was the one thing I was worried about.

I will be purchasing the new editions as soon as they are available, and will put up new card scans to the wiki as soon as I can.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #42 on: September 21, 2016, 08:58:16 pm »
+5

I just realized, this is 14 new cards which is basically a small expansion! And so soon after Empires! Think of all the Let's Discuss threads there will be...

(Sorry if I'm spamming this thread)

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #43 on: September 21, 2016, 09:05:00 pm »
+2

Q: Will the new cards be available online? If so, when?

A: Yes. At launch.

Will the old cards be available?

I know this is meant to be a joke, but I'd like some clarification. The replaced cards are technically in no expansions then, so do they stay in the Dominion canon? (I know I can do whatever I like with my pieces of cardboard, I'm interested about the online implementation)
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #44 on: September 21, 2016, 09:13:42 pm »
+6

This gives me hope that one day Dark Ages will be reprinted with revised versions of Rebuild and Cultist, and that one day Alchemy will be reprinted, without Possession.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #45 on: September 21, 2016, 09:20:37 pm »
+1

Q: Will the new cards be available online? If so, when?

A: Yes. At launch.

Will the old cards be available?

I know this is meant to be a joke, but I'd like some clarification. The replaced cards are technically in no expansions then, so do they stay in the Dominion canon? (I know I can do whatever I like with my pieces of cardboard, I'm interested about the online implementation)

I'll probably add a "Removed cards" section to the Cards navbox on the wiki, and a "Removed cards" section to the articles for Base and Intrigue.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #46 on: September 21, 2016, 10:29:12 pm »
+1

Bold and probably wrong predictions of removed cards:

Dominion: Adventurer, Chancellor, Feast, Thief, Spy, Bureaucrat. Honorable mention: Woodcutter (boring and one of the weakest +buy cards, but fits the theme of simple cards).

Intrigue: Scout, Saboteur, Secret Chamber, Coppersmith, Torturer (far too powerful in the 3-4 player games that casual players typically play, and leads to analysis paralysis), Tribute (encourages players to skip the multi-type cards that Intrigue introduced). Honorable mention: Harem (art and name cause issues).
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #47 on: September 21, 2016, 10:40:51 pm »
+1

Bold and probably wrong predictions of removed cards:

Dominion: Adventurer, Chancellor, Feast, Thief, Spy, Bureaucrat. Honorable mention: Woodcutter (boring and one of the weakest +buy cards, but fits the theme of simple cards).

Actually, the Base Game theme was boring cards. Intrigue's was swingy cards.
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Marcory

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #48 on: September 21, 2016, 11:18:25 pm »
0

Was consideration given to having Moneylender trash Treasures instead of just Coppers, to match up with Spice Merchant? Or was this too big of a change to make?
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #49 on: September 21, 2016, 11:45:16 pm »
+2

Was consideration given to having Moneylender trash Treasures instead of just Coppers, to match up with Spice Merchant? Or was this too big of a change to make?

I don't believe it was discussed. I thought of it, but knew without asking that it would be too radical of a change.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #50 on: September 21, 2016, 11:53:35 pm »
0

Oh hey, it's the thing that I heard about back in January.  Surprised it's going to be around so soon after announcement, but I'll take it!
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #51 on: September 22, 2016, 12:13:51 am »
0

Anyone else considering buying the entire new editions just for the they pronoun cards, bold text +Whatever, and errata cards? maybe these are too few cards to be worth buying whole new sets for, but I could give away my old ones.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #52 on: September 22, 2016, 12:22:21 am »
0

I recall reading somewhere that the reason Moneylender et al. weren't revised before was because any change to card text would obviate the right to put the Spiel des Jahres logo on the box (on the grounds that the award was given for the original set of cards, I guess). Has Spiel des Jahres loosened up their restrictions, or was this more of a "hey, people know what Dominion is already, we don't need the Spiel des Jahres logo to promote the game anymore" situation?

(or am I just misremembering something, I guess)
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #53 on: September 22, 2016, 12:25:57 am »
0

Q: Will the new cards be available online? If so, when?

A: Yes. At launch.

Will the old cards be available?

I know this is meant to be a joke, but I'd like some clarification. The replaced cards are technically in no expansions then, so do they stay in the Dominion canon? (I know I can do whatever I like with my pieces of cardboard, I'm interested about the online implementation)

I actually didn't mean it as a joke, I'm wondering the same thing.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #54 on: September 22, 2016, 12:30:53 am »
0

While getting updated, better formatted cards is nice, I see that as more of a bonus next to getting replacements for my worn-out Villages.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #55 on: September 22, 2016, 12:34:37 am »
+2

And Roadrunner wants to replace his worn-out Scouts.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #56 on: September 22, 2016, 12:45:29 am »
+9

canonically, will the errata on mine, throne room, and moneylender apply retroactively? will the police come if i tell my friend that she has to play an action if she has one when she plays throne room
I recommend doing what you most want, unless it's stopping someone from doing what they want, unless what they want is also stopping someone from doing what they want, uh okay I think an even number of stoppings means it's okay, an odd number is bad.

For tournaments it will be up to the people running the tournament. If I were running a tournament I'd use the new cards and also go by the wordings on them.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #57 on: September 22, 2016, 12:50:03 am »
+4

I know this is meant to be a joke, but I'd like some clarification. The replaced cards are technically in no expansions then, so do they stay in the Dominion canon? (I know I can do whatever I like with my pieces of cardboard, I'm interested about the online implementation)
Canonically the replaced cards are in the first editions of Dominion and Intrigue, and not in the second editions. There are separate product numbers and covers.

For Dominion online, again, I don't know, though demand would be a factor. I personally feel no obligation to give people the replaced main set cards on the online version; they were provided for free rather than sold, and games will be better without having them show up, that's what I think. It's a harder question for Intrigue and it may be that we feel obligated to provide the replaced cards there, though I would think with an option to turn them off that starts out checked.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #58 on: September 22, 2016, 12:52:58 am »
+3

This gives me hope that one day Dark Ages will be reprinted with revised versions of Rebuild and Cultist, and that one day Alchemy will be reprinted, without Possession.
I am less hopeful than you there! The replacing cards thing is not planned for other expansions; I think the only reasonable candidate is Seaside and well I didn't do it. And the functionally changing cards, that's only being done in cases where the functional change mostly doesn't come up. It is quite rare for it to matter that Mine doesn't say "you may." For example. Masquerade comes up more often, but only because people set up that specific scenario.
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Donald X.

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #59 on: September 22, 2016, 12:56:10 am »
+2

I recall reading somewhere that the reason Moneylender et al. weren't revised before was because any change to card text would obviate the right to put the Spiel des Jahres logo on the box (on the grounds that the award was given for the original set of cards, I guess). Has Spiel des Jahres loosened up their restrictions, or was this more of a "hey, people know what Dominion is already, we don't need the Spiel des Jahres logo to promote the game anymore" situation?

(or am I just misremembering something, I guess)
I have commented on this issue in public in the past; without looking anything up, I don't know exactly what I said, but it's a real thing, that to keep using the logo we'd need to ask the SdJ people. They'd probably say yes (for one thing they make money on the logo being used), but it would be a thing.

However RGG does not currently use the logo (did I mention you have to pay for it?). So this is an issue mainly for the German publisher, Altenburger, and well I don't know what they're doing yet.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #60 on: September 22, 2016, 01:03:08 am »
0

I am sl excited to get around 12 new cards and the disappearance of 12 cards of which I am sure at least 10 of them are bad.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #61 on: September 22, 2016, 01:20:13 am »
0

Anyone else considering buying the entire new editions just for the they pronoun cards, bold text +Whatever, and errata cards? maybe these are too few cards to be worth buying whole new sets for, but I could give away my old ones.

I've always had gender neutral pronouns on all of my cards.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #62 on: September 22, 2016, 01:30:06 am »
0

I am sl excited to get around 12 new cards and the disappearance of 12 cards of which I am sure at least 10 of them are bad.

We're actually getting 14 new cards
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #63 on: September 22, 2016, 01:41:20 am »
0

Jeij, around 15 new cards!
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #64 on: September 22, 2016, 01:46:01 am »
0

2017 will be quite the time for Dominion. Now, I wonder if some of the new cards will be"fixed" versions or if everything will be all new. I think it's possible to potentially fix Scout. But, we already have a fixed thief with brigand, so I think it's gone. Adventurer might work at $5. Still probably too weak. I can't see Feast getting a fixed version. Chancellor and Woodcutter are probably dead as well.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #65 on: September 22, 2016, 02:32:34 am »
0

I can't see Feast getting a fixed version.

What's wrong with Feast?  They can't all be the greatest $4 ever.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #66 on: September 22, 2016, 02:41:58 am »
0

I can't see Feast getting a fixed version.

What's wrong with Feast?  They can't all be the greatest $4 ever.

Well, some cards are getting the axe. I think it's very likely Feast is one of them and the odds of Donald X. trying to make an improved version seem low.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #67 on: September 22, 2016, 02:46:16 am »
0

I liked the 'trash this. If you do, you may gain a card costing up to $5 and you may gain a card costing up to $3.
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Aleimon Thimble

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #68 on: September 22, 2016, 03:20:06 am »
+1

Please don't kill Coppersmith.  :(

I can live with Saboteur getting the axe, but not Coppersmith!

Also sad that the Masquerade pin is no longer a thing. RIP.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2016, 03:21:57 am by Aleimon Thimble »
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #69 on: September 22, 2016, 03:25:26 am »
0

You can view the new art on BGG.

Edit:  You can see it all, and its sick.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2016, 03:31:26 am by ThetaSigma12 »
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #70 on: September 22, 2016, 03:38:01 am »
+2

The new Dominion cover is beautiful, and I like the new Intrigue box.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #71 on: September 22, 2016, 03:42:51 am »
0

You can view the new art on BGG.

Edit:  You can see it all, and its sick.
Where is it? Can't seem to find it.
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schoeggu

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #72 on: September 22, 2016, 03:45:49 am »
+2

« Last Edit: September 22, 2016, 03:53:58 am by schoeggu »
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #73 on: September 22, 2016, 03:48:55 am »
0

Wow, that cover is gorgeous. It's a bit fantasy-ish but who cares when it's that pretty
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #74 on: September 22, 2016, 05:03:18 am »
+2

I'd been hoping for something like this, even though I expected it to come for the 10th anniversary (knowing how much RGG loves anniversary editions)
I hope that Saboteur gets replaced by something similar but more playable.
A number of Feast variants could work, I think. Just lowering the price to 2 would be a step, for example. +Buy on buy would be interesting, but that might be too advanced for the base set.
Thief, Chancellor and Adventurer already have their spiritual successors, so I think we'll see something new and exciting there.

I hope Great Hall doesn't get kicked out. Harem on the other hand... 3:)
Scout also has a little-known spiritual successor called Vagrant, but something interacting with all the small alt-vp in Intrigue would be great, so I'm kind of hoping in a working Scout.

I'm calling 4 non-terminal cards out of 7 in the Base set.
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Aleimon Thimble

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #75 on: September 22, 2016, 05:10:08 am »
0

Getting Scout to work could be as simple as giving it +1 Card.
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tristan

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #76 on: September 22, 2016, 05:42:30 am »
0

Getting Scout to work could be as simple as giving it +1 Card.
That would make a weak card into a crazily overpowered card.
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tailred

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #77 on: September 22, 2016, 05:50:40 am »
+1

Getting Scout to work could be as simple as giving it +1 Card.
That would make a weak card into a crazily overpowered card.
Eh, I'd doubt it. It'll look like a net lab often, but the cards drawn are still useless. Same problem as vagrant, although that one's a 2 cost. Although the similarity to vagrant means that that change isn't a very appealing one.

It'll actually be pretty similar to Apoth too, but again it's drawing estates most of the time instead of coppers.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #78 on: September 22, 2016, 06:07:29 am »
+18

saboteur seems unsalvagable.

No it's not, you get $5 and +1 buy.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #79 on: September 22, 2016, 06:09:46 am »
0

Getting Scout to work could be as simple as giving it +1 Card.
That would make a weak card into a crazily overpowered card.
Eh, I'd doubt it. It'll look like a net lab often, but the cards drawn are still useless. Same problem as vagrant, although that one's a 2 cost. Although the similarity to vagrant means that that change isn't a very appealing one.

It'll actually be pretty similar to Apoth too, but again it's drawing estates most of the time instead of coppers.
So? You still gotta draw through your green stuff. ^^
A Lab for 4 is brilliant. A Double Lab (happens often enough, with cantrip Scouts you do not even have to trash your Estates) for 4 is cwazy. And deck-rearrangement is a cherry on top of all that very sweet cake.

When would you ever not open with a cantrip Scout? And if you play Intrigue only with all that Victory cards Scout would be even more kick-ass.

All of this is kinda like with Cellar. Cellar is OK at 2 whereas a cantrip Cellar would easily be a 4 or 5.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #80 on: September 22, 2016, 06:17:33 am »
0

Bold and probably wrong predictions of removed cards:

Dominion: Adventurer, Chancellor, Feast, Thief, Spy, Bureaucrat. Honorable mention: Woodcutter (boring and one of the weakest +buy cards, but fits the theme of simple cards).

Intrigue: Scout, Saboteur, Secret Chamber, Coppersmith, Torturer (far too powerful in the 3-4 player games that casual players typically play, and leads to analysis paralysis), Tribute (encourages players to skip the multi-type cards that Intrigue introduced). Honorable mention: Harem (art and name cause issues).
Everything here sounds right to me except Torturer. It feels like too interesting a card to get rid of just because it's unpleasant. Don't know what I'd kick out instead though. Possibly Swindler because it's annoying, but again it's an interesting card. Possibly Wishing Well because it's a cantrip that causes analysis paralysis.

Also if Harem gets kicked then I assume it would just get a retheme, because the mechanic is nice.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #81 on: September 22, 2016, 06:18:35 am »
0

However RGG does not currently use the logo (did I mention you have to pay for it?). So this is an issue mainly for the German publisher, Altenburger, and well I don't know what they're doing yet.

Don't you know what ASS is doing at all or only about the logo? I.e. will there be a German version of the new edition and the upgrade packs, and when?

Also, what will the upgrade packs cost?
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #82 on: September 22, 2016, 06:31:04 am »
0

Thief could very well be just 'you may trash a treasure' and it would already be reasonable
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #83 on: September 22, 2016, 06:47:52 am »
+1

Getting Scout to work could be as simple as giving it +1 Card.
That would make a weak card into a crazily overpowered card.
Eh, I'd doubt it. It'll look like a net lab often, but the cards drawn are still useless. Same problem as vagrant, although that one's a 2 cost. Although the similarity to vagrant means that that change isn't a very appealing one.

It'll actually be pretty similar to Apoth too, but again it's drawing estates most of the time instead of coppers.
So? You still gotta draw through your green stuff. ^^
A Lab for 4 is brilliant. A Double Lab (happens often enough, with cantrip Scouts you do not even have to trash your Estates) for 4 is cwazy. And deck-rearrangement is a cherry on top of all that very sweet cake.

When would you ever not open with a cantrip Scout? And if you play Intrigue only with all that Victory cards Scout would be even more kick-ass.

All of this is kinda like with Cellar. Cellar is OK at 2 whereas a cantrip Cellar would easily be a 4 or 5.

Scout isn't always a Lab even if you gave it +1 Card, in a lot of decks it would still be pretty mediocre if there's any decent Estate trashing. I'd say you would still rather trash those Estates than draw them with Scout+, because they might still get in the way in your hands where you don't have a Scout+. In those cases, Scout+ is strictly worse than Cartographer, not exactly a power card to begin with (although to be fair, it is also cheaper).

Of course, Scout/Great Hall would actually be a legit combo with Scout+, but that's fine. Combos can get crazy, I don't think anybody feels that Hermit is overpowered just because it combos so nicely with Market Square. I don't feel Scout+ would be anywhere near overpowered, it would be a decent middle-of-the-road card.
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kieranmillar

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #84 on: September 22, 2016, 06:57:13 am »
0

Scout with +1 card would be very similar to Apothecary except worse, so I'm not convinced that it would be insanely strong.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #85 on: September 22, 2016, 07:09:51 am »
0

Scout with +1 card would be very similar to Apothecary except worse, so I'm not convinced that it would be insanely strong.
The simple fact that Cartographer exists shows that it's not broken in concept. But maybe underpriced at 4, even more so considering all the fun dual-types out there.
But I think Scout+ is way too similar to Cartographer to exist. I'd like something between Vagrant and Cartie, or something totally different that has fun interactions with hybrid cards.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #86 on: September 22, 2016, 07:13:10 am »
0

Why not scout + village effect?
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #87 on: September 22, 2016, 07:25:46 am »
0

Why not scout + village effect?
Assuming you mean +2actions without +cards, I really like it but I fear it might compare badly to all other villages, at any price. Does Intrigue really need another shanty town?
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Donald X.

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #88 on: September 22, 2016, 07:29:35 am »
0

However RGG does not currently use the logo (did I mention you have to pay for it?). So this is an issue mainly for the German publisher, Altenburger, and well I don't know what they're doing yet.

Don't you know what ASS is doing at all or only about the logo? I.e. will there be a German version of the new edition and the upgrade packs, and when?

Also, what will the upgrade packs cost?
I have no information about what Altenburger will do. It's up to them, and not something they would tell me directly. I will be surprised if they ignore the new stuff, but I have no actual information.

Pricing is just not something for me to talk about. You could ask RGG on BGG.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #89 on: September 22, 2016, 07:30:26 am »
0

Why not scout + village effect?
Assuming you mean +2actions without +cards, I really like it but I fear it might compare badly to all other villages, at any price. Does Intrigue really need another shanty town?

That would be necropolis + scout.

I meant scout + village. :)

(I disagree that cantrip-scout would be op, I think village-scout is olish; it's a village. The scout is just a nice bonus to have.)
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #90 on: September 22, 2016, 07:33:50 am »
0

Hooray, this is awesome news :3
Being able to pick up the new cards on their own is the coolest thing here.

As they are new versions of Base and Intrigue, i assume cards will be more or less simple, which is exactly my kind of thing. Let's see who's likely to get replaced, shall we?

Base:
  • Feast
  • Thief
  • Spy
  • Woodcutter
  • Chancellor (boo hoo, my beloved Chancellor)
  • Adventurer
... Well, that was easy.

Intrigue:
  • Great Hall
  • Scout
  • Secret Chamber
  • Saboteur
  • Tribute
  • Coppersmith
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #91 on: September 22, 2016, 07:39:21 am »
0

I can't see Coppersmith getting dropped. It's so unique. I'd put Harem over Coppersmith. It's a mediocre card with horrible art and flavor.

Great hall will probably stay too. It might be weak but it's the iconic theme of intruige.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #92 on: September 22, 2016, 07:42:14 am »
+2

Please let Minion be gone.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #93 on: September 22, 2016, 07:44:22 am »
0

Why not scout + village effect?
Assuming you mean +2actions without +cards, I really like it but I fear it might compare badly to all other villages, at any price. Does Intrigue really need another shanty town?

That would be necropolis + scout.

I meant scout + village. :)

(I disagree that cantrip-scout would be op, I think village-scout is olish; it's a village. The scout is just a nice bonus to have.)
Oh, my bad.
I agree that cantrip-scout would be fine powerwise, but I think it would be too similar to Cartographer. I'm afraid that Village-Scout would be a bit too good compared to Cartographer, while still being too similar.
Also, Scout is fairly slow to resolve (see Cartographer and more prominently Apothecary), and forcing its effect on a Kingdom's only village could be painful. You might not be interested at all in the Scout effect (eg you have strong trashing), but the reordering can always be marginally beneficial, so you'll have to sit through 10 minutes of deck-sorting per turn.

I hope that it's ok to have speculation here, but if it's annoying to somebody we could move to another thread :)
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #94 on: September 22, 2016, 07:53:32 am »
+2

Please let Minion be gone.
I sure would rather see Minion go than Great Hall.
If Donald made a 4c event that gave a vp token and made the endgame closer (say by trashing a victory card), people would drool over it, but nobody cares for poor little Great Hall who did that (and more) before it was cool. (and before events and vp tokens were a thing) ;)
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #95 on: September 22, 2016, 07:57:42 am »
+2

Please let Minion be gone.
I sure would rather see Minion go than Great Hall.
If Donald made a 4c event that gave a vp token and made the endgame closer (say by trashing a victory card), people would drool over it, but nobody cares for poor little Great Hall who did that (and more) before it was cool. (and before events and vp tokens were a thing) ;)

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #96 on: September 22, 2016, 08:45:48 am »
+5

Donald X's last post on BGG gives some insights:
Quote
I recommend that you stop using the replaced cards, except that one that you can't believe I took out; I'd keep playing with that one.
Quote
A few of the new cards are based on removed cards, and the rest are just trying to be good new cards appropriate for Dominion or Intrigue.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #97 on: September 22, 2016, 08:46:45 am »
+1

However RGG does not currently use the logo (did I mention you have to pay for it?). So this is an issue mainly for the German publisher, Altenburger, and well I don't know what they're doing yet.

Don't you know what ASS is doing at all or only about the logo? I.e. will there be a German version of the new edition and the upgrade packs, and when?

Also, what will the upgrade packs cost?

The RGG website shows that the Dominion update pack will be $14.95. The price for the Intrigue update pack is not available, but presumably it will be similar.

http://riograndegames.com/Game/1313-Dominion-update-pack

Edit:

Here's the links to the other products for those interested:

http://riograndegames.com/Game/1312-Dominion-2nd-edition
http://riograndegames.com/Game/1314-Dominion-Intrigue-update-pack
http://riograndegames.com/Game/1311-Dominion-Intrigue-2nd-edition
« Last Edit: September 22, 2016, 08:53:58 am by Ankenaut »
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #98 on: September 22, 2016, 08:49:14 am »
+1

However RGG does not currently use the logo (did I mention you have to pay for it?). So this is an issue mainly for the German publisher, Altenburger, and well I don't know what they're doing yet.

Don't you know what ASS is doing at all or only about the logo? I.e. will there be a German version of the new edition and the upgrade packs, and when?

Also, what will the upgrade packs cost?

The RGG website shows that the Dominion update pack will be $14.95. The price for the Intrigue update pack is not available, but presumably it will be similar.

http://riograndegames.com/Game/1313-Dominion-update-pack
No rulebook. Sigh.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #99 on: September 22, 2016, 09:23:03 am »
+1

No rulebook. Sigh.

Hitting "like", not because I'm happy about it, but to thank you for checking and reporting back.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #100 on: September 22, 2016, 09:44:43 am »
+4

Considering we didn't know this existed until like 12 hours ago, and the rule book will be out sometime in the next 7 days, I think we can all be patient and wait for it. Right?

I mean, we knew future prints of Intrigue wouldn't come with Base Cards, but that's about it.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #101 on: September 22, 2016, 09:54:42 am »
+4

Considering we didn't know this existed until like 12 hours ago, and the rule book will be out sometime in the next 7 days, I think we can all be patient and wait for it. Right?

I mean, we knew future prints of Intrigue wouldn't come with Base Cards, but that's about it.

Waiting for the rulebook seems fairly easy.

Waiting for the translations is once again going to be annoying. I still don't have Empires...
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #102 on: September 22, 2016, 09:57:42 am »
+2

Waiting for the translations is once again going to be annoying. I still don't have Empires...

Well, Dominion Welt now has the German rules up on their website.  I'm sure Dutch shouldn't be too far behind.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #103 on: September 22, 2016, 10:08:15 am »
0

Waiting for the translations is once again going to be annoying. I still don't have Empires...

Well, Dominion Welt now has the German rules up on their website.  I'm sure Dutch shouldn't be too far behind.

so, you've seen actual cards yet??
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #104 on: September 22, 2016, 10:09:17 am »
0

This gives me hope that one day Dark Ages will be reprinted with revised versions of Rebuild and Cultist, and that one day Alchemy will be reprinted, without Possession.

Why do so many people whine about Rebuild? It's really an awful card that almost never wins against anything competent.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #105 on: September 22, 2016, 10:12:00 am »
0

Also, a question for the ShuffleIt devs. Will it be possible to play with the old cards as well as the new ones, even if they are functionally worse? Just have it as an option to click or unclick?
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #106 on: September 22, 2016, 10:13:16 am »
0

Considering we didn't know this existed until like 12 hours ago, and the rule book will be out sometime in the next 7 days, I think we can all be patient and wait for it. Right?

I mean, we knew future prints of Intrigue wouldn't come with Base Cards, but that's about it.

Waiting for the rulebook seems fairly easy.
Clearly youre not as obsessed as I am.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #107 on: September 22, 2016, 10:14:39 am »
+3

Waiting for the translations is once again going to be annoying. I still don't have Empires...

Well, Dominion Welt now has the German rules up on their website.  I'm sure Dutch shouldn't be too far behind.

so, you've seen actual cards yet??

http://www.dominion-welt.de/wp/wp-content/uploads/S160160DomEmpiASSD_SR_LowRes_72dpi.pdf
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #108 on: September 22, 2016, 10:18:55 am »
0

Coppersmith is one of the funniest cards of the game, i would be so terribly sad if it were out.
Making coppers better fits nicely the intrigue sub theme "make base cards better" Baron (estate) and Duke (duchy).
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #109 on: September 22, 2016, 10:27:42 am »
+1

Waiting for the translations is once again going to be annoying. I still don't have Empires...

Well, Dominion Welt now has the German rules up on their website.  I'm sure Dutch shouldn't be too far behind.

so, you've seen actual cards yet??

http://www.dominion-welt.de/wp/wp-content/uploads/S160160DomEmpiASSD_SR_LowRes_72dpi.pdf

I saw a German copy of Empires yesterday.

Maybe the card "you can't believe [Donald] took out" is Chapel.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #110 on: September 22, 2016, 10:29:10 am »
+4

Waiting for the translations is once again going to be annoying. I still don't have Empires...

Well, Dominion Welt now has the German rules up on their website.  I'm sure Dutch shouldn't be too far behind.

so, you've seen actual cards yet??

http://www.dominion-welt.de/wp/wp-content/uploads/S160160DomEmpiASSD_SR_LowRes_72dpi.pdf

I saw a German copy of Empires yesterday.

Maybe the card "you can't believe [Donald] took out" is Chapel.

Yeah, you only ever need it if you have a bunch of curses or something  ;)

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #111 on: September 22, 2016, 10:54:07 am »
+5

I think we can figure most of the deleted cards out from the Dominion time machine thread. There's 6 cards in each of Dominion and Intrigue. Let's see what Donald said about what he would fix given the chance:

Quote
I'm there for you guys with the tough answers.

Main set:

The big thing is to add more replayability. There are six vanilla cards and probably five would have been fine; the obvious one to replace is Woodcutter. Woodcutter is a fine card for the main set but the other vanilla cards are all better. That means all of the +buy cards would cost $5 but I can live with that. After that, Feast adds very little. Chancellor doesn't add much and would have been better in Intrigue (where it came from); the fact that it's a puzzler is way better in an expansion than in the main set. And finally there's Spy. Spy is slow to resolve, that's the big thing. Over the years I have learned that ideally Spy-type attacks don't have +1 action, or don't involve a decision, or both. Rabble is exactly what I want. Spy has +1 action and involves a decision, so you potentially make tons of decisions per turn. I like decisions but man Spy is not where to get them. It initially got to interact with two attacks that trashed cards from the top of your deck, and that's cool, but now it only interacts with Thief (in the main set that is), and that combo just isn't worth the slot.

The way to think of these things is, imagine the replacement cards. Let's say I just take out Woodcutter and Feast and put in Wishing Well and Coppersmith. Those are not top-of-the-line adored-by-all go-in-every-deck cards. But they still give you more to do than Woodcutter and Feast do.

It would be nice if Thief were stronger, but it already scares new players, and once everyone was new. There are some wording tweaks; Throne Room and Moneylender should of course say "you may." I would try coloring the coins on the treasures. The Trash card should be a mat instead.

There are people who complain about various other cards, but I am happy with those, so there.

I think this means the following:

- Woodcutter is clearly gone and replaced with a non-vanilla card.
- Feast is gone.
- Chancellor is gone, and maybe some fixed version of it will move to Intrigue. Although I'm not 100% sure, now that Scavenger and Messenger exist Donald might find it unnecessary.
- Spy is replaced with a different card that requires fewer decisions.
- Thief might be removed entirely or it might get a buff, but doing so is of course hard without turning it into Noble Brigand.

I think it's safe to say these 5 cards will get the banhammer (or a serious overhaul). Which card will be the sixth one? Adventurer seems to be most obvious based on our experience as players, but I don't think there's anything more we can say based on the information we have.

Throne Room and Moneylender get the fixes Donald has wanted for a long time. What we didn't know is that he'd also fix Mine, but I guess it makes sense. And the trash card is now a mat, as predicted. Moving on.

Quote
Intrigue:

Saboteur is the biggest mistake here. Some people hate it because it can trash Provinces, some because it's an attack that doesn't make resources (which was a surprise but there it is), some just don't like it because it's weak. Some people like it, but the kind of person who wants an attack like this deserves one that has fewer strikes against it - like, Swindler, there you go.

Moats have to be on the weak side, but I would probably still try to improve Secret Chamber. It also has the issue of making reactions confusing - the whole business of, reveal Secret Chamber, resolve it, reveal a Moat I drew off of it. It would be better to avoid that issue, even if it meant just not doing Secret Chamber's reaction.

I would look at ways to buff Scout. I would consider changing Mining Village to avoid invoking the enigmatic "lose track" rule. I would consider whether I like Bridge and Coppersmith as is, in their Throne-able glory, or if I would rather phrase them the way I think such stuff in general should be phrased, like Highway etc. Masquerade originally triggered gain/trash things; I would look at that again, but honestly I would be unlikely to just reword it to address the King's Court / Masquerade / Goons combo. Masquerade has a clear simple wording and I would rather kill the card than make the wording awful, an awful that you dear reader may be mystified as to the awfulness of, I have come to terms with that. But I'm not sure I need to kill the combo and Masquerade is a pretty cool card.

- Saboteur is gone, and maybe replaced with a trashing attack that has 'fewer strikes against it', but maybe it's just deleted altogether because there's already Swindler, and a completely different card takes its place. Also, apparently Swindler is staying, great!
- Secret Chamber is replaced by a different Reaction card.
- Scout gets a buff or it might turn into a different card entirely.
- Mining Village gets changed to avoid the lose track rule.

The other 2 cards are still unclear. Masquerade is fixed, even though Donald said earlier that he didn't want to kill the KC/Masq/Goons combo (sadness), but it doesn't count because it's a fairly minor change. Bridge has been confirmed to stay as it is, but Coppersmith has not, which makes me think that Coppersmith is leaving (much sadness). And the sixth card... again, no clue whatsoever, but many people in this thread have said Harem due to flavor and artwork issues. I guess that would make sense.

---

Therefore, my predictions would be:

Base: Woodcutter, Feast, Chancellor, Spy, Thief, Adventurer(?)
Intrigue: Saboteur, Secret Chamber, Scout, Mining Village, Coppersmith, Harem(?)
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #112 on: September 22, 2016, 11:06:31 am »
+2

I'd be seriously disappointed if Adventurer stays. To me it's the most blatant offense of cards being unbalanced. All the other awful cards tried to do something unique atleast, so it was harder to balance them. But this is just simple draw that is awful.

Also a wording tweak on Mining Village might be good enough? My guess would be that Tribute replaces it in Aleimons list.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #113 on: September 22, 2016, 11:08:05 am »
0

I'd be seriously disappointed if Adventurer stays. To me it's the most blatant offense of cards being unbalanced. All the other awful cards tried to do something unique atleast, so it was harder to balance them. But this is just simple draw that is awful.

Also a wording tweak on Mining Village might be good enough? My guess would be that Tribute replaces it in Aleimons list.

Yeah, I think Donald would have said if Mining Village got even a small functional change.

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #114 on: September 22, 2016, 11:08:57 am »
0

Also a wording tweak on Mining Village might be good enough? My guess would be that Tribute replaces it in Aleimons list.

Possibly, but if Mining Village only got a wording tweak, Donald would have mentioned it in the same post as Masquerade's wording tweak. Mining Village either stays exactly as it is (functionally), or gets replaced/overhauled completely. I put my money on the latter mainly because it's a card he specifically mentioned in the Time Machine thread, unlike Tribute (or even Harem).
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #115 on: September 22, 2016, 11:11:34 am »
0

Inwouldn't be surprised to have Conspirator replaced with a card that does Peddler style action card counting, and maybe to make up for that it gets conditional +Buy? Perhaps that's too much. Or just a totally different card.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #116 on: September 22, 2016, 11:18:23 am »
0

Pawn might get the ax because of it's AP.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #117 on: September 22, 2016, 11:37:34 am »
+1

Inwouldn't be surprised to have Conspirator replaced with a card that does Peddler style action card counting, and maybe to make up for that it gets conditional +Buy? Perhaps that's too much. Or just a totally different card.

NOOOOOOO CONSPIRATOR IS MY BAE
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #118 on: September 22, 2016, 11:40:00 am »
0

This gives me hope that [...] one day Alchemy will be reprinted, without Possession.

Oooh, a second edition of Alchemy with twice as many cards.  SUATMM.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #119 on: September 22, 2016, 11:42:00 am »
+2

So, Instead of wondering what will be removed, let's specualte about what will (or won't) be added?

Base
-Another +Buy card, and probably cheap. Donald says he can live with all the +Buy being , but with the addition of an extra 7th card a +Buy for or seems likely. +2 Buys might make a return.
-A top deck attack, like spy or theif. I don't think theif will get buffed as we already have Noble Brigand. A cool thing would be putting cards from the discard pile back on other player's decks, like Ghost Ship except without reducing handsize.
-A gainer, possibly with a drawback. Think Banquet. If there isn't I can see something very simmilar to Asper's Artisan getting included.
-Another village. The base set only has 2 and it can get annoying with all the terminals, and least 1 new village seems good. Possibly a gaining village, or an attack village as those haven't really been done. Of course, attack village could be too simmilar to Spy.
-Another trasher. Chapel is an amazing trasher so something more mediocre, only trashing 1 or 2 cards at a time would be nice.
~A "Deck into discard pile". Seems unlikely especially with Scavenger and Messanger. One in intruige is a possibilty however.
~Stealing other player's things, like Theif. Too intimidating for new players.

Intruige:
-A card with VP at the bottom. It's intruige's cool thing and it would seem lame in any other expansion. I've seen some fan cards that do it well, and if Harem or Great Hall gets the ax this would really be a shoo-in.
-An optional one shot, but without the tracking issues. A lot of Enterprise could make it into intruige with some changes.
-A card that cares about copper. Probably not as an attack, but a copper gainer would be cool and maybe having it in intuige would help Coppersmith.
-A card that seems like an attack but isn't. Tribute could be redone as a weaker, less swingy version. It's a fun card and if it's problems were to be fixed I'd want it back in.
~A card with a lot of choices, like Pawn. Too much AP.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #120 on: September 22, 2016, 12:01:52 pm »
+4

That is quite a codpiece on that... prince?  King?  On the new Intrigue cover.

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #121 on: September 22, 2016, 12:05:51 pm »
+1

Yikes, that King is rocking the fancy white hair! Is that the child of Milo Yiannopoulos and Boris Johnson!?
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #122 on: September 22, 2016, 12:10:04 pm »
+17

I think Empires has hints as to what won't make it. Keep in mind the rulebook mentions Intrigue 2nd Edition, so the recommended Kingdoms were likely made with this in mind. With that said, Harem and Mining Village are used, so I don't think they are out. Also Pawn and Torturer are used as well.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #123 on: September 22, 2016, 12:17:34 pm »
+3

I think Empires has hints as to what won't make it. Keep in mind the rulebook mentions Intrigue 2nd Edition, so the recommended Kingdoms were likely made with this in mind. With that said, Harem and Mining Village are used, so I don't think they are out. Also Pawn and Torturer are used as well.

We also probably won't be saying goodbye to Bureaucrat and Cellar, but Chapel isn't in there...

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #124 on: September 22, 2016, 12:18:19 pm »
0

I also hear the card corners will be less rounded.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #125 on: September 22, 2016, 12:19:52 pm »
0

I also hear the card corners will be less rounded.

I really doubt they would make a change that would mark cards as being from one set or the other. Considering they have said they can't change the backs.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #126 on: September 22, 2016, 12:20:39 pm »
0

I think Empires has hints as to what won't make it. Keep in mind the rulebook mentions Intrigue 2nd Edition, so the recommended Kingdoms were likely made with this in mind. With that said, Harem and Mining Village are used, so I don't think they are out. Also Pawn and Torturer are used as well.

We also probably won't be saying goodbye to Bureaucrat and Cellar, but Chapel isn't in there...

I guess Chapel is that one card that we'll be using anyways after Donald ditches it!
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #127 on: September 22, 2016, 12:24:33 pm »
+1

I also hear the card corners will be less rounded.

I really doubt they would make a change that would mark cards as being from one set or the other. Considering they have said they can't change the backs.

It was a joke about Magic Alpha -> Beta :/
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #128 on: September 22, 2016, 12:24:48 pm »
+1

I think Empires has hints as to what won't make it. Keep in mind the rulebook mentions Intrigue 2nd Edition, so the recommended Kingdoms were likely made with this in mind. With that said, Harem and Mining Village are used, so I don't think they are out. Also Pawn and Torturer are used as well.

I wonder if new printings of later sets will get their Recommended kingdoms revised as well.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #129 on: September 22, 2016, 12:54:00 pm »
+1

So one question I'd like to be clear on.  If I get the Base Update only, I will not be getting the trash mat or reworded Mine, Throne Room or Moneylender?

Thanks
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #130 on: September 22, 2016, 12:56:44 pm »
+2

So one question I'd like to be clear on.  If I get the Base Update only, I will not be getting the trash mat or reworded Mine, Throne Room or Moneylender?

Thanks

Correct

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #131 on: September 22, 2016, 01:16:41 pm »
0

So I guess the big question is do you get both full sets out just the update packs. I'm leaning towards the full sets because I'm a nerd.

The real question is, do I go out and buy first edition Intrigue while I still can, or let the chance to own Scout slip forever through my fingers?

Buy it, don't unwrap it.  Will be worth huge moneys.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #132 on: September 22, 2016, 01:18:31 pm »
+5

So I guess the big question is do you get both full sets out just the update packs. I'm leaning towards the full sets because I'm a nerd.

The real question is, do I go out and buy first edition Intrigue while I still can, or let the chance to own Scout slip forever through my fingers?

Buy it, don't unwrap it.  Will be worth huge moneys.

You'll get $4 for each Scout.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #133 on: September 22, 2016, 02:02:02 pm »
0

Card predictions:

Base:
#1
Action
+1 Card
+2 Actions
Gain a card costing up to and an Estate.

#2
Action
+2 Cards
+1 Buy
Each other player discards the top card of their deck than puts a Victory from their discard pile onto thier deck.

#3
Gain a card costing up to and an Copper, putting the Copper into your hand.

#4
Action
+1 Card
+
You may play a (#4) from your hand.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #134 on: September 22, 2016, 02:38:56 pm »
+3

-An optional one shot, but without the tracking issues. A lot of Enterprise could make it into intruige with some changes.
-A card that cares about copper. Probably not as an attack, but a copper gainer would be cool and maybe having it in intuige would help Coppersmith.

I actually suggested Clerk for Intrigue, but it ended up in Empires instead (as Settlers).
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #135 on: September 22, 2016, 03:15:48 pm »
+3

Yikes, that King is rocking the fancy white hair! Is that the child of Milo Yiannopoulos and Boris Johnson!?

Given the codpiece and collar, I think it's more a combination of David Bowie and the Twins from the Matrix.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #136 on: September 22, 2016, 03:16:14 pm »
+10

Card predictions:

The Variants and Fan Cards forum is over here.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #137 on: September 22, 2016, 03:59:04 pm »
0

Question: will the new cards be completely different, or will they be "improved" versions of the old cards?  Given the replaced cards and the replacing cards, could I match them up one-to-one and say, "now this one is the new Scout!"?
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #138 on: September 22, 2016, 04:01:52 pm »
+8

Question: will the new cards be completely different, or will they be "improved" versions of the old cards?  Given the replaced cards and the replacing cards, could I match them up one-to-one and say, "now this one is the new Scout!"?

From BGG:

Quote from: Donald X.
A few of the new cards are based on removed cards, and the rest are just trying to be good new cards appropriate for Dominion or Intrigue.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #139 on: September 22, 2016, 05:20:23 pm »
+2

Hopefully the update packs are easy to get in Canada!

I think I'll apply errata with stickers to my binder pockets, so when a card is taken out I can remind the players.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #140 on: September 22, 2016, 05:22:59 pm »
0

Hopefully the update packs are easy to get in Canada!

I think I'll apply errata with stickers to my binder pockets, so when a card is taken out I can remind the players.

Yes, I am also in Canada and would buy the update packs on the spot.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #141 on: September 22, 2016, 05:55:30 pm »
+12

Maybe the card "you can't believe [Donald] took out" is Chapel.
The card you can't believe I took out varies from person to person. The context was someone asking if I recommended no longer playing with the removed cards. Myself, I am no longer playing with them. But any given person will have whatever card they wouldn't have removed, and well you don't have to remove it.

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #142 on: September 22, 2016, 06:00:42 pm »
0

Maybe the card "you can't believe [Donald] took out" is Chapel.
The card you can't believe I took out varies from person to person. The context was someone asking if I recommended no longer playing with the removed cards. Myself, I am no longer playing with them. But any given person will have whatever card they wouldn't have removed, and well you don't have to remove it.

That's what I was thinking. But it would be funny if you had removed a much beloved card. And by funny I mean odd.

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #143 on: September 22, 2016, 06:00:56 pm »
+1

Are we still waiting for BGGRGG to allow Jay to post the cards there or did another issue come up?
« Last Edit: September 22, 2016, 06:19:54 pm by drsteelhammer »
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #144 on: September 22, 2016, 06:18:14 pm »
+1

Where did he say he was waiting for that? The only thing I see is this: https://boardgamegeek.com/article/23765006#23765006, where he says that he can't post it to the RGG website atm.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #145 on: September 22, 2016, 06:20:33 pm »
0

Where did he say he was waiting for that? The only thing I see is this: https://boardgamegeek.com/article/23765006#23765006, where he says that he can't post it to the RGG website atm.

my mistake, wrong website.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #146 on: September 22, 2016, 06:25:41 pm »
0

I'm checking RGG like every 30 minutes. I should really get some help...
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #147 on: September 22, 2016, 06:26:32 pm »
0

I just now saw this, and haven't read any of the replies yet, so I'm sure that this has been said already....

NO MORE MASQ PINS!!  >:( >:( :'( :'(

I know that a lot of people will like them, but as someone who really likes "alternate win conditions", I think a setup that allows a Masq pin makes for a fun game.

Now there's a separate question about if old cards are considered to have errata or not. If my physical Throne Room doesn't say "you may", should I still play as if it did to be fully following the rules of Dominion? Similar to how MTG has the Oracle card wordings, and what's printed on the card doesn't matter? (Unless you have R&D's Secret Lair in play, of course).
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #148 on: September 22, 2016, 06:29:26 pm »
0

Well, he said he was hoping for it to be fixed by tonight, so I guess it's reasonable to assume it isn't.

Also, I just realized I haven't ever played a game where someone got pinned. I guess I'm missing out on that :(
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #149 on: September 22, 2016, 06:35:02 pm »
+2

For those who like numbers, getting rid of the worst 6 cards out of 25 improves about 85% of Base-only games (ie 85% of games have at least one of these cards).
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #150 on: September 22, 2016, 07:00:50 pm »
0

Getting Scout to work could be as simple as giving it +1 Card.
That would make a weak card into a crazily overpowered card.
Eh, I'd doubt it. It'll look like a net lab often, but the cards drawn are still useless. Same problem as vagrant, although that one's a 2 cost. Although the similarity to vagrant means that that change isn't a very appealing one.

It'll actually be pretty similar to Apoth too, but again it's drawing estates most of the time instead of coppers.
So? You still gotta draw through your green stuff. ^^
A Lab for 4 is brilliant. A Double Lab (happens often enough, with cantrip Scouts you do not even have to trash your Estates) for 4 is cwazy. And deck-rearrangement is a cherry on top of all that very sweet cake.

When would you ever not open with a cantrip Scout? And if you play Intrigue only with all that Victory cards Scout would be even more kick-ass.

All of this is kinda like with Cellar. Cellar is OK at 2 whereas a cantrip Cellar would easily be a 4 or 5.

Scout isn't always a Lab even if you gave it +1 Card, in a lot of decks it would still be pretty mediocre if there's any decent Estate trashing.
You are right. In the beginning Cantrip Scout is quite likely to be a Double Lab. For 4. Taking about cwazy squared.

Cantrip Scout isn't just extremely overpowered in combination with Great Hall but with virtually any hybrid Victory card.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #151 on: September 22, 2016, 07:04:36 pm »
+1

I just now saw this, and haven't read any of the replies yet, so I'm sure that this has been said already....

NO MORE MASQ PINS!!  >:( >:( :'( :'(

I know that a lot of people will like them, but as someone who really likes "alternate win conditions", I think a setup that allows a Masq pin makes for a fun game.

Now there's a separate question about if old cards are considered to have errata or not. If my physical Throne Room doesn't say "you may", should I still play as if it did to be fully following the rules of Dominion? Similar to how MTG has the Oracle card wordings, and what's printed on the card doesn't matter? (Unless you have R&D's Secret Lair in play, of course).

We already have cards that play differently from how they are written (Possession, Black Market, Pirate Ship, Envoy), so from that precedent it would seem that the "correct" way would be to play the cards as errataed. Of course the real correct way is to play them however your playgroup enjoys and agrees upon.

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #152 on: September 22, 2016, 08:09:19 pm »
0

Will the wiki be updated?
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #153 on: September 22, 2016, 08:09:58 pm »
+1

Will the wiki be updated?

As soon as the rules are up.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #154 on: September 22, 2016, 08:26:33 pm »
0

Getting Scout to work could be as simple as giving it +1 Card.
That would make a weak card into a crazily overpowered card.
Eh, I'd doubt it. It'll look like a net lab often, but the cards drawn are still useless. Same problem as vagrant, although that one's a 2 cost. Although the similarity to vagrant means that that change isn't a very appealing one.

It'll actually be pretty similar to Apoth too, but again it's drawing estates most of the time instead of coppers.
So? You still gotta draw through your green stuff. ^^
A Lab for 4 is brilliant. A Double Lab (happens often enough, with cantrip Scouts you do not even have to trash your Estates) for 4 is cwazy. And deck-rearrangement is a cherry on top of all that very sweet cake.

When would you ever not open with a cantrip Scout? And if you play Intrigue only with all that Victory cards Scout would be even more kick-ass.

All of this is kinda like with Cellar. Cellar is OK at 2 whereas a cantrip Cellar would easily be a 4 or 5.

Scout isn't always a Lab even if you gave it +1 Card, in a lot of decks it would still be pretty mediocre if there's any decent Estate trashing.
You are right. In the beginning Cantrip Scout is quite likely to be a Double Lab. For 4. Taking about cwazy squared.

Cantrip Scout isn't just extremely overpowered in combination with Great Hall but with virtually any hybrid Victory card.

It might be too good for $4, but it's just a different Cartographer, rmost of the time. Assuming the absence of hybrid victory cards, it just keeps the junk in hand to trash it or keep it out of the shuffle, but on the other hand it doesn't do anything about Curses, Ruins or Copper. I will prefer a Cartographer in games with Cursers, or to speed up cycling. Surely cantrip-Scout has a fine synergy with the few hybrid-vp there are (although i assume Great Hall won't make it, it's practically replaced already). But such exist with a lot of cards. Ironmonger for example is already strong and gets even stronger with hybrids, still nobody complains about that. Cartographer can trigger Tunnels. Surely cantrip-Scout looks like it's too close to Cartographer to cost $4, but that's already it in my opinion. If anything, i'd be worried that getting a lot of them will basically allow you to just green all the time, but, i guess that's kind of the idea behind it in the first place?
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #155 on: September 22, 2016, 08:36:40 pm »
+2

I think scout will be completely demolished and be replaced with a different card.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #156 on: September 22, 2016, 09:51:42 pm »
0

I just now saw this, and haven't read any of the replies yet, so I'm sure that this has been said already....

NO MORE MASQ PINS!!  >:( >:( :'( :'(

I know that a lot of people will like them, but as someone who really likes "alternate win conditions", I think a setup that allows a Masq pin makes for a fun game.

Now there's a separate question about if old cards are considered to have errata or not. If my physical Throne Room doesn't say "you may", should I still play as if it did to be fully following the rules of Dominion? Similar to how MTG has the Oracle card wordings, and what's printed on the card doesn't matter? (Unless you have R&D's Secret Lair in play, of course).

That's not entirely true, it's just harder. You can still do like a Masq/Cutpurse pin or a Masq/Bureaucrat pin.

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #157 on: September 22, 2016, 09:54:34 pm »
+1

I think scout will be completely demolished and be replaced with a different card.

I concur. Scout will never exist in any form again. It's just a terrible idea in retrospect. Sorry, RR. It had to be said. I understand that now your life has no purpose. But that's okay. You can always find a new purpose. For example, Transmute needs a protector.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #158 on: September 23, 2016, 12:47:24 am »
+1

I still think the simplest fix to Scout is making it cost $2.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #159 on: September 23, 2016, 12:50:41 am »
+2

Even then, I'd usually buy Vagrant, Cellar, or Crossroads over a Scout. By the time I've got enough green for Scout's ability to outweigh theirs, I'm probably starting to think about buying Estates with my hands.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 12:53:07 am by Marcory »
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #160 on: September 23, 2016, 01:04:52 am »
+1

I still think the simplest fix to Scout is making it cost $2.

That still doesn't fix the problem that you almost never want to have Scout in your deck even if it's for no cost at all.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #161 on: September 23, 2016, 01:42:43 am »
0

What's wrong with Harem? It's my mom's favorite card. Maybe it could use new artwork, but otherwise I hope it stays.
I'm looking forward to seeing the new cards in general, but especially Secret Chamber's replacement. I think the reaction is really neat, even though the card overall is too weak. I expect a fun improvement on the idea.

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #162 on: September 23, 2016, 01:49:54 am »
+8

You could probably fix Scout and Secret Chamber by combining them.  Have its reaction be identical to Secret Chamber, and when you play it, it's a terminal Scout followed by Secret Chamber.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #163 on: September 23, 2016, 02:58:58 am »
0

Getting Scout to work could be as simple as giving it +1 Card.
That would make a weak card into a crazily overpowered card.
Eh, I'd doubt it. It'll look like a net lab often, but the cards drawn are still useless. Same problem as vagrant, although that one's a 2 cost. Although the similarity to vagrant means that that change isn't a very appealing one.

It'll actually be pretty similar to Apoth too, but again it's drawing estates most of the time instead of coppers.
So? You still gotta draw through your green stuff. ^^
A Lab for 4 is brilliant. A Double Lab (happens often enough, with cantrip Scouts you do not even have to trash your Estates) for 4 is cwazy. And deck-rearrangement is a cherry on top of all that very sweet cake.

When would you ever not open with a cantrip Scout? And if you play Intrigue only with all that Victory cards Scout would be even more kick-ass.

All of this is kinda like with Cellar. Cellar is OK at 2 whereas a cantrip Cellar would easily be a 4 or 5.

Scout isn't always a Lab even if you gave it +1 Card, in a lot of decks it would still be pretty mediocre if there's any decent Estate trashing.
You are right. In the beginning Cantrip Scout is quite likely to be a Double Lab. For 4. Taking about cwazy squared.

Cantrip Scout isn't just extremely overpowered in combination with Great Hall but with virtually any hybrid Victory card.

It might be too good for $4, but it's just a different Cartographer, rmost of the time.
The comparison with Cartographer seems obvious but Cantrip Scout is more of a conditional (Double-)Lab with deck rearrangement whereas Cartographer is a sifter with deck rearrangment.
I totally agree that Cartographer is better than Cantrip Scout at 5$ in the absence of alternative Victory cards and in the presence of junkers. But with Cantrip Scout costing 4$ it is a different ballgame.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #164 on: September 23, 2016, 03:37:22 am »
+1

Scout+ is as much of a conditional Lab as Vagrant is. Sure, Scout+ is stronger because it can potentially draw more than 1 card, but that card is not going to be very useful for your hand (edge cases like Great Hall aside), it just improves your next hand. It's also weaker than Cartographer, because it really doesn't matter at all if your green is in your hand or in your discard pile (again, edge cases aside), but Carto at least gets to discard Coppers and other unwanted cards as well. Anyway, Vagrant and Cartographer aren't power cards, and Scout+ is somewhere in between them both cost-wise and power-wise, so I'm fairly sure Scout+ wasn't going to be overpowered.

Then again, to be honest this discussion is likely moot because I don't think Scout+ is going to be in the new Intrigue.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #165 on: September 23, 2016, 04:01:38 am »
0

Ehm, both Cartographer and Cantrip Scout improve your next draw / hand. You'd rather have the green in your hands than discard pile if there are discard for benefit cards and if there are alt-VP Cantrip Scout becomes obviously crazy.

I would virtually always open with Cantrip Scout. Hell, a potential double Lab for a mere 4? Sign me in.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #166 on: September 23, 2016, 04:28:47 am »
+4

Ehm, both Cartographer and Cantrip Scout improve your next draw / hand. You'd rather have the green in your hands than discard pile if there are discard for benefit cards and if there are alt-VP Cantrip Scout becomes obviously crazy.

I would virtually always open with Cantrip Scout. Hell, a potential double Lab for a mere 4? Sign me in.

Have you played with Menagerie?
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #167 on: September 23, 2016, 04:32:05 am »
0

Ehm, both Cartographer and Cantrip Scout improve your next draw / hand. You'd rather have the green in your hands than discard pile if there are discard for benefit cards and if there are alt-VP Cantrip Scout becomes obviously crazy.

I would virtually always open with Cantrip Scout. Hell, a potential double Lab for a mere 4? Sign me in.

I'd still open any $4 trasher over Scout+ on a big engine board, and Silver is still better than Scout+ for BM. Scout+ is still pretty mediocre on boards without discard for benefit or functional alt-VP.

And remember, like I said before, a card is allowed to be crazy under certain conditions. Hermit is not OP just because it has a crazy combo with Market Square, nor is Counting House broken because Travelling Fair is a thing. Besides, I'd say these two things are still way more crazy than Scout+/Great Hall or Scout+/Vault or something.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #168 on: September 23, 2016, 06:06:40 am »
0

Ehm, both Cartographer and Cantrip Scout improve your next draw / hand. You'd rather have the green in your hands than discard pile if there are discard for benefit cards and if there are alt-VP Cantrip Scout becomes obviously crazy.

I would virtually always open with Cantrip Scout. Hell, a potential double Lab for a mere 4? Sign me in.

It's just as likely to be a do-nothing cantrip as a double Lab. Even if you open with it, by the time you first play it (T3-5), at best one fourth of your cards will usually be green (and the percentage of green cards keeps decreasing until the endgame). So on average you draw one random card and one green card, which (in the absence of hybrid cards) is about as good as Caravan (in both cases it's a cantrip this turn, and you draw one more potentially useful card next turn). So reasonable at $4 IMO. Strong with alt-VP cards, weak with Estate trashing.

A more interesting (IMO) Scout fix would be to allow drawing a card AFTER revealing, if no green was revealed. I'm not sure if this would be stronger or weaker than cantrip Scout - how good is choosing which revealed card to draw?
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #169 on: September 23, 2016, 06:08:36 am »
+3

If you compare cantrip Scout to another conditional Lab (Wishing Well), I don't think cantrip Scout is much stronger.

After the first reshuffle both cantrip Scout and Wishing Well have the highest chance to hit. With 11 other cards in the deck, the chances to hit n extra draw are
Code: [Select]
n  cantrip Scout  Wishing Well
0       21.2%         36.4%
1       50.9%         63.6%
2+      27.9%          0.0%
So cantrip Scout is a bit better, but I don't think it would dominate. The problem that it doesn't do anything for your current hand would remain.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #170 on: September 23, 2016, 06:27:20 am »
+1

So cantrip Scout is a bit better, but I don't think it would dominate. The problem that it doesn't do anything for your current hand would remain.
Exactly, which I why I feel like repeatedly calling it a 'double-lab' is a really disingenuous way of arguing this case.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #171 on: September 23, 2016, 08:29:58 am »
+9


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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #172 on: September 23, 2016, 09:15:42 am »
0

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #173 on: September 23, 2016, 10:16:00 am »
0

I am sl excited to get around 12 new cards and the disappearance of 12 cards of which I am sure at least 10 of them are bad.

We're actually getting 14 new cards

What do you mean by this? It's 6 from each set right?
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #174 on: September 23, 2016, 10:18:20 am »
+1

I am sl excited to get around 12 new cards and the disappearance of 12 cards of which I am sure at least 10 of them are bad.

We're actually getting 14 new cards

What do you mean by this? It's 6 from each set right?

In each set we are getting 7 new cards and losing 6 cards and the blanks.

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #175 on: September 23, 2016, 10:26:50 am »
0

I am sl excited to get around 12 new cards and the disappearance of 12 cards of which I am sure at least 10 of them are bad.

We're actually getting 14 new cards

What do you mean by this? It's 6 from each set right?
Plus the one that replaces blanks.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #176 on: September 23, 2016, 10:28:52 am »
0

Just to be clear, are we losing the Base Card randomizer cards that nobody liked or used anyway? I assume so, just curious.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #177 on: September 23, 2016, 10:49:08 am »
+1

Just to be clear, are we losing the Base Card randomizer cards that nobody liked or used anyway? I assume so, just curious.

Yes. No room for the 7th new card otherwise.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #178 on: September 23, 2016, 10:51:14 am »
0

Yeah, I must admit I've been a bit too absorbed with the fact that some cards are going to be lost. Let's start getting excited about 14 new cards, which is about the size of a small expansion! :)
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #179 on: September 23, 2016, 10:55:03 am »
+2

Honestly, who cares about new cards guys. I can already smell Scout blood.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #180 on: September 23, 2016, 11:18:11 am »
+1

Just to be clear, are we losing the Base Card randomizer cards that nobody liked or used anyway? I assume so, just curious.
Yes.  This was stated on BGG:
Quote from: LastFootnote
Oh, oops. Yes, those base card "randomizers" are being removed. I don't think that's much of a spoiler, but uh there you are. I'm guessing Donald would have mentioned that in his big "here are the changes" post if he'd thought of it.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #181 on: September 23, 2016, 11:49:36 am »
0

Apols if this has been addressed but do they come with the fancy-artworked treasures/victory cards instead of the plain ones?
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #182 on: September 23, 2016, 11:50:19 am »
0

Apols if this has been addressed but do they come with the fancy-artworked treasures/victory cards instead of the plain ones?

Yes
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #183 on: September 23, 2016, 11:55:25 am »
0

Sweeeet.

Ashamed to say I don't actually own any of the physical games/expansions - loads of my friends do so I've never needed to. I've been thinking of picking up the base set, this might give me the final push :D
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #184 on: September 23, 2016, 12:16:24 pm »
+3

Jay says the rules should be up today!!!!!! :)
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #185 on: September 23, 2016, 12:23:23 pm »
+2

Jay says the rules should be up today!!!!!! :)

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #186 on: September 23, 2016, 12:29:49 pm »
+3

I had plans to get things done today.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #187 on: September 23, 2016, 12:29:55 pm »
0

Are they up yet?
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #189 on: September 23, 2016, 12:36:04 pm »
+1

What about now? Are they up?
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #191 on: September 23, 2016, 12:38:46 pm »
+2

Bugger. And now?
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #195 on: September 23, 2016, 01:56:08 pm »
0

If the bew cards are known, theta, could you open a new topic with them with all 14 in the main post? That way, we can have a more structured discussion.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #196 on: September 23, 2016, 02:07:31 pm »
0

Just to be clear, are we losing the Base Card randomizer cards that nobody liked or used anyway? I assume so, just curious.

I like and use them. They make it easy to see when a pile (esp. Curse, Duchy, Estate) is empty, which makes the game more beginner-friendly. Obviously you don't need to have them, but why would you ask about them as if the game got worse by having them? I too would certainly prefer an actual kingdom card over the randomizers (which might actually add up here), but if you can have them for free in adfition, yes please.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #197 on: September 23, 2016, 02:22:42 pm »
+1

Just to be clear, are we losing the Base Card randomizer cards that nobody liked or used anyway? I assume so, just curious.

I like and use them. They make it easy to see when a pile (esp. Curse, Duchy, Estate) is empty, which makes the game more beginner-friendly. Obviously you don't need to have them, but why would you ask about them as if the game got worse by having them? I too would certainly prefer an actual kingdom card over the randomizers (which might actually add up here), but if you can have them for free in adfition, yes please.

For me they too often got mixed up with the actual randomizers and I had to remove them.  I remember my first game of Dominion, where we thought they were there because some hardcore players liked to only play with some of the basic cards, and so included them in the randomizer deck.

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #198 on: September 23, 2016, 02:54:46 pm »
+1

For clarification, Jay stated that he hopes to have the rules posted today. Sounds like it's contingent on certain issues with the RGG website being resolved.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #199 on: September 23, 2016, 02:58:06 pm »
0

Just to be clear, are we losing the Base Card randomizer cards that nobody liked or used anyway? I assume so, just curious.

I like and use them. They make it easy to see when a pile (esp. Curse, Duchy, Estate) is empty, which makes the game more beginner-friendly. Obviously you don't need to have them, but why would you ask about them as if the game got worse by having them? I too would certainly prefer an actual kingdom card over the randomizers (which might actually add up here), but if you can have them for free in adfition, yes please.

For me they too often got mixed up with the actual randomizers and I had to remove them.  I remember my first game of Dominion, where we thought they were there because some hardcore players liked to only play with some of the basic cards, and so included them in the randomizer deck.

I'm not sure which language you played in, but i had the first german edition. I also like to read rulebooks, and there it suggested to use the card to mark empty piles. Ever since, my base card piles have that one randomizer at their bottom. I'm really not saying they're especially useful, and i guess they can confuse you, after all. Hum. Yeah, they a probably not worth keeping, looking at it that way.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #200 on: September 23, 2016, 03:28:05 pm »
0

For clarification, Jay stated that he hopes to have the rules posted today. Sounds like it's contingent on certain issues with the RGG website being resolved.
I was being optimistic.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #201 on: September 23, 2016, 04:28:20 pm »
+6

I keep three sleeved blanks to mark empty piles. It has a nice visual impact.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #202 on: September 23, 2016, 04:30:36 pm »
+2

I keep three sleeved blanks to mark empty piles. It has a nice visual impact.

I love this idea.

EDIT: Now I wish I'd thought of this as something to include in the second editions.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 04:31:44 pm by LastFootnote »
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Seprix

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #203 on: September 24, 2016, 12:35:20 am »
+2

I keep three sleeved blanks to mark empty piles. It has a nice visual impact.

I love this idea.

EDIT: Now I wish I'd thought of this as something to include in the second editions.

There's always the third edition, with even more cards added too!  ;D
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #204 on: September 24, 2016, 09:44:29 am »
0

Considering it's now Saturday, Jay probably won't put up the rules until Monday.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #205 on: September 24, 2016, 10:19:50 am »
+4

This violates Art. 3 of the European Convention on Human Rights (prohibition of torture and humiliating treatment or punishment) which does not bind Jay, but who cares?
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #206 on: September 24, 2016, 10:20:10 am »
0

Considering it's now Saturday, Jay probably won't put up the rules until Monday.

But we can still dream, right?
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #207 on: September 24, 2016, 01:06:24 pm »
+4

If I can dream of a warmer sun
Where hope keeps shining on everyone
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Seprix

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #208 on: September 24, 2016, 01:39:13 pm »
+1

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #211 on: September 24, 2016, 07:00:18 pm »
+3

I can download the Intrigue rules, but not the Base rules, and the update rulebooks aren't up yet.

EDIT: The Base rules are working for me now.

But the cards deleted from Intrigue are:

Scout
Saboteur
Secret Chamber
Great Hall
Coppersmith
Tribute

And from Base are:
Chancellor
Woodcutter
Feast
Spy
Thief
Adventurer
« Last Edit: September 24, 2016, 07:17:27 pm by Marcory »
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #212 on: September 24, 2016, 07:18:30 pm »
+12

It looks like the changes from base are as follows:

Removed -- Adventurer, Chancellor, Feast, Spy, Thief, Woodcutter

New
$6 - Artisan -- Gain a card to your hand costing up to $5. Put a card from you hand on to your deck.
$5 - Bandit -- Gain a Gold. Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of their deck, trashes a revealed treasure other than Copper, and discards the rest.
$5 - Sentry -- Cantrip, Look at the top 2 cards of your deck. Trash and/or discard any number of them. Put the rest back in any order.
$4 - Poacher -- Cantrp, +$1, Discard a card per empty supply pile.
$3 - Harbinger -- Cantrip, Look through your discard pile.  You may put a card from it onto your deck.
$3 - Merchant -- Cantrip, The first time you play a Silver this turn +$1.
$3 - Vassal -- +$2, Discard the top card of your deck. If it is an Action card, you may play it.

I'm looking forward to playing with these cards.    It should enhance the game, with a much smaller portion of dud/trap type cards.  The one card I have more mixed feelings about is Harbinger.  I'm thinking Harbinger may lead to some long turns with engines that involve repeatedly looking through your discard pile, but I'll wait until playing some games before deciding how I feel about it.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2016, 07:55:45 pm by NolanA »
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #213 on: September 24, 2016, 07:21:58 pm »
+6

So the question we're all going to ask: what does roadrunner think of Patrol?

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #214 on: September 24, 2016, 07:26:38 pm »
+1

The wording on Vassal is a little strange to me. Shouldn't it be "Reveal the top card of your deck, etc., discard it otherwise"? If the card is an Action card and you decide to play it, it's not ever in your discard pile, right? I know this doesn't matter for Tunnel but in case there are other cards that care about 'when discard', it might?

Otherwise, love all of these! Super glad there's another gain-from-the-trash card! Kinda sad to lose another hybrid card, but Mill is way more interesting than Great Hall. I'll miss Tribute in some ways, but Courtier is a really great replacement for it that won't feel frustrating. It'll get crazy with Expansions, which have a lot of different types!
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #215 on: September 24, 2016, 07:34:20 pm »
+1

Lurker seems strong.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #216 on: September 24, 2016, 07:39:20 pm »
+7

$5 - Action - Courtier: Reveal a card from your hand. For each type it has (Action, Attack, etc.), choose one: +1 Action, or +1 Buy, or +, or gain a Gold. The choices must be different.
$4 - Action/Reaction - Diplomat: +2 Cards. If you have 5 or fewer cards in hand (after drawing), +2 Actions / When another player plays an Attack card, you may first reveal this from a hand of 5 or more cards, to draw 2 cards then discard 3.
$2 - Action - Lurker: +1 Action. Choose one: Trash an Action card from the Supply, or gain an Action card from the trash.
$4 - Action/Victory - Mill: +1 Card, +1 Action. You may discard 2 cards for +/ 1
$5 - Action - Patrol: +3 Cards. Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Put the Victory cards and Curse cards into your hand. Put the rest back in any order.
$5 - Action/Attack - Replace: Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing up to more than the trashed card. If the gained card is an Action or Treasure, put it onto your deck. If it's a Victory card, each other player gains a Curse.
$4 - Action - Secret Passage: +2 Cards, +1 Action. Take a card from your hand and put it anywhere in your deck.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2016, 07:48:22 pm by mameluke »
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mameluke

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #217 on: September 24, 2016, 07:51:20 pm »
+1

Secret Passage is a really cool Wishing Well enabler.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #218 on: September 24, 2016, 07:52:09 pm »
+2

Courtier Dame Josephine.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #219 on: September 24, 2016, 07:53:08 pm »
+1

We should play a funeral for the ones that we killed with our hatred,
some kind of online gothic spectacle of grotesque

Burning Skull

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #220 on: September 24, 2016, 07:54:55 pm »
+1

Also, new cards are amazing!

schoeggu

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #221 on: September 24, 2016, 07:55:58 pm »
+2

So Scout is now a Smithy.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #222 on: September 24, 2016, 07:56:23 pm »
+2

Early impressions and predictions:

Artisan- when I first saw this, I thought "how is this not worse than Altar?"  Then I saw that the card goes to your hand.  This card seems pretty darn good, especially in an engine.  In fact, a lot of the new base set cards are good engine cards, which is a nice departure from the original set. 

Bandit- What a great way to fix Thief!  Just make it better enough to be worth .  I also like how it doesn't get better with more players in the same way that Thief does. 

Cellar- Well it's not a new card but I have to say I don't really like this wording change.  I think it's the only change I don't like.

Harbinger- Hm, I think it's good for later in the game.  It feels a bit like Scheme in a big deck. 

Merchant- A really good Peddler variant.  All you have to do is play a Silver and they all become Peddlers!

Poacher- Not quite sure what to think about this one.  It looks like a nice opening but can get awful later in the game.  Of course by that point you probably have a bunch of dead cards.  I see myself opening with this more often than not. 

Sentry- Ooo, wonderful cantrip trasher!  It's like what Lookout wants to be!  The only problems I see with this are AP and OP!

Vassal- A buff to Spy... oh wait.  But still with any kind of deck inspection (I'm looking at you, Patrol) this is phenomenal!

Courtier- I'VE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS CARD!  Seriously, I think this is my favorite of the new cards.  Like Forum, this is a design space that I thought was left open for too long.  I'm glad it exists now.  Can't wait to play this with Dame Josephine in hand, or even just Bridge Troll!  It'd be interesting to calculate how many kingdoms have cards with more than one type, or more than two.

Diplomat- So this is the counterpart to Shanty Town!  It's a little confusing but seems fun. 

Lurker- There are probably a lot of lurkers on this Forum, and now they're going to start trashing cards from our supply!  Hopefully they don't trash our Forum.  I think Beyond Awesome summed it up pretty well. 

Mill- Just a little buff to Great Hall.  I'm happy this exists. 

Patrol- I would totally buy this Scout variant.  Good job Donald on fixing Scout and Thief without making people mad (well there's always going to be someone but you know).  This might seriously slow down turns though. 

Replace- A fine Remodel variant.  Not too sure about this one. 

Secret Passage- In high-level games I see this being a key card.  Combos with Wishing Well and Patrol. 


Well that's it for now.  I can't wait to get my hands on these cards.  Or get these cards in my hand.  I'm sorry $85, you had to go sometime.

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #223 on: September 24, 2016, 08:01:25 pm »
+3

Okay, so what have we got here!

The base game revisions solve two of the main problems with the base game, namely too many terminals and not enough trashing—the new cards include a trasher and fully four cantrips plus a Herald variant.

Poacher is the first $4 Peddler variant that's strictly* worse than Peddler. Interesting.

Lot of Gold gaining among these. Well, okay, two, that's kind of a lot.

Many of the functions of the removed cards are pretty well replicated among the new ones—Harbinger replaces some of the functions of Chancellor, Merchant is a Coppersmith variant, Diplomat and Mill divide up the functions of Secret Chamber, etc.
The loss of Woodcutter means no more cheap +Buy in the base game, which I honestly do feel is kind of a loss, although I know Donald specifically called it out as not that important.

Coppersmith is kind of a unique niche card that I'm surprised to find cut. Some new unique card functions, though: Courtier is the first card to straight-up care about types, rather than specific types; Poacher as an anti-City; Secret Passage lets you stash other cards.  Lurker is such a simple trash-gainer that I'm kind of suprised DXV didn't think of it before.

I'm excited!
« Last Edit: September 24, 2016, 08:12:31 pm by AJD »
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Marcory

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #224 on: September 24, 2016, 08:05:52 pm »
+6

*This is an edit of Nolan and Mameluke's posts to make the cards more readable:

Base Cards:

Removed -- Adventurer, Chancellor, Feast, Spy, Thief, Woodcutter

New Cards
Artisan Action
Gain a card to your hand costing up to $5.
Put a card from you hand on to your deck.

Bandit Action
Gain a Gold.
Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of their deck, trashes a revealed treasure other than Copper, and discards the rest.

Sentry Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
Look at the top 2 cards of your deck.
Trash and/or discard any number of them.
Put the rest back in any order.

Poacher Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
+
Discard a card per empty supply pile.

Harbinger Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
Look through your discard pile. 
You may put a card from it onto your deck.

Merchant Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
The first time you play a Silver this turn +.

Vassal Action
Discard the top card of your deck. If it is an Action card, you may play it.

Intrigue
Removed cards
Secret Chamber, Great Hall, Coppersmith, Scout, Saboteur, Tribute

New Cards

Courtier Action
Reveal a card from your hand.
For each type it has (Action, Attack, etc.), choose one: +1 Action, or +1 Buy, or +, or gain a Gold.'
The choices must be different.

Patrol Action
+3 Cards.
Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Put the Victory cards and Curse cards into your hand. Put the rest back in any order.

Replace Action/Attack
Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing up to more than the trashed card. If the gained card is an Action or Treasure, put it onto your deck. If it's a Victory card, each other player gains a Curse.

Diplomat Action/Reaction
+2 Cards.
If you have 5 or fewer cards in hand (after drawing), +2 Actions
-----------------
When another player plays an Attack card, you may first reveal this from a hand of 5 or more cards, to draw 2 cards then discard 3.

Mill Action/Victory
Worth 1
+1 Card
+1 Action.
You may discard 2 cards for


Secret Passage
Action
+2 Cards
+1 Action
Take a card from your hand and put it anywhere in your deck.

Lurker Action
+1 Action.
 Choose one: Trash an Action card from the Supply, or gain an Action card from the trash.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2016, 09:58:54 pm by Marcory »
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #225 on: September 24, 2016, 08:07:41 pm »
+7

Lurker makes Rogue look silly.

Anyway, I'm sad we're short one +Buy. I always feel +Buy the to be the most common element missing in most Kingdoms. Another trasher is good and all the nonterminals help. Another Village may have been nice.

As for Intrigue, Patrol is quite the Scout buff. It seems kind of strong actually. Also, I'm surprised get another Smithy variant since Envoy was removed for that reason.
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mameluke

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #226 on: September 24, 2016, 08:10:28 pm »
0

It's interesting that the benefits that Courtier gives really have nothing to do with what Tribute gives. Notably, no way to get +Cards and no village effect.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #227 on: September 24, 2016, 08:16:08 pm »
+1

Anyway, I'm sad we're short one +Buy. I always feel +Buy the to be the most common element missing in most Kingdoms. Another trasher is good and all the nonterminals help. Another Village may have been nice.
Base loses a buy, but Intrigue gets one. Also, there are quite a lot of new gainers
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #228 on: September 24, 2016, 08:26:34 pm »
0

So... Lurker. I'm pure theorycrafting here, but I wonder if it's really going to be that great. In some kingdoms, of course, it could be great. King's Court a Lurker, gain a King's Court and a half. But a lot of the time, this is effectively two card plays to get a $5 or $6 card, and with a risk of your opponent sniping them if you're careless. So... sorta like a psuedo Silver to Gold that only works on action cards, maybe? Although in T4B it's insanely efficient. I guess I'm beginning to convince myself that it's pretty good actually. Yeah, this thing could be really powerful in the right kingdom. But I think it'll be skippable a lot of the time, or possibly something you pick up a single copy of because you want to deny your opponent free trash control.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #229 on: September 24, 2016, 08:29:46 pm »
0

So... Lurker. I'm pure theorycrafting here, but I wonder if it's really going to be that great. In some kingdoms, of course, it could be great. King's Court a Lurker, gain a King's Court and a half. But a lot of the time, this is effectively two card plays to get a $5 or $6 card, and with a risk of your opponent sniping them if you're careless. So... sorta like a psuedo Silver to Gold that only works on action cards, maybe? Although in T4B it's insanely efficient. I guess I'm beginning to convince myself that it's pretty good actually. Yeah, this thing could be really powerful in the right kingdom. But I think it'll be skippable a lot of the time, or possibly something you pick up a single copy of because you want to deny your opponent free trash control.

Using it on t4b is hilarious. Hunting Grounds says hi. Lurker can also be used for pile control. It's conceivable to build a Lurker engine that's goal is to wipe out supplies to end on a three-pile
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #230 on: September 24, 2016, 08:30:49 pm »
+4

The wording on Vassal is a little strange to me. Shouldn't it be "Reveal the top card of your deck, etc., discard it otherwise"? If the card is an Action card and you decide to play it, it's not ever in your discard pile, right? I know this doesn't matter for Tunnel but in case there are other cards that care about 'when discard', it might?
In general I don't want to make a card wordier or confusing to handle exotic cases unless there's no other way to do it, and for the main set especially I was desperate to have shorter wordings.

This is also why Merchant says "first" rather than "next."

Edit: And if you play the card it did visit the discard pile - you discarded it.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2016, 08:35:39 pm by Donald X. »
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #231 on: September 24, 2016, 08:31:09 pm »
+1

I think you need to play Lurker in pairs, unless Swindler or something else can put things into the trash. I thought about gaining Prince with this after the first shuffle, but you risk your opponent picking it up before you do. Otherwise, great card to Prince.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #232 on: September 24, 2016, 08:34:58 pm »
+1

This is also why Merchant says "first" rather than "next."

...So does this mean if you play Merchant ''after'' the "first Silver you play this turn" (via Storyteller or whatever), you don't get the bonus for the next Silver you play?
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #233 on: September 24, 2016, 08:37:32 pm »
+2

I just spent over an hour chatting with friends about the new cards.  For the most part, I'm super excited by them, and don't really miss any of the cards that are missing.

I will say that I'm not a huge fan of several of the new wordings, particularly on Mill.  The old "Do X.  If you do, do Y." made it clearer (to me) that you could half-complete action X, but you wouldn't gain benefit Y for doing so.  The text on the card of Mill doesn't imply to me at all that you can discard a single card.  The FAQ entry tells me I can, which is nice, but that's not how the card reads to me.

Overall, though, I'm quite stoked.  I have several friends who have been waiting for an improved printing of Intrigue, and now they'll get a bunch of fun new cards to go with it.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #234 on: September 24, 2016, 08:38:11 pm »
+4

This is also why Merchant says "first" rather than "next."

...So does this mean if you play Merchant ''after'' the "first Silver you play this turn" (via Storyteller or whatever), you don't get the bonus for the next Silver you play?
Yes. When you played your first Silver, you didn't have the Merchant around.
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mameluke

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #235 on: September 24, 2016, 08:49:21 pm »
+1

Merchant has replaced Woodcutter in the 'First Game' recommended set.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #236 on: September 24, 2016, 09:20:28 pm »
0

I'm definitely going to miss woodcutter, just a cheap solid simple +buy.  Thief's replacement is probably for the best but I will miss Thief/Gardens multiplayer.

Not a huge fan of the easy Gold gaining, even if Gold is often not great in modern engines.

I also miss Saboteur, but while I think Dominion as a whole is better with it Intrigue probably was not.

Sentry's pretty interesting - at first I thought it is much stronger than Junk Dealer which is already pretty good (you basically get the +$1 back by not trashing from hand), but you're a bit less likely to have cards to hit with it after a few uses.  Of course some of these other cards will put things back on the deck for you!

Oh hey, Secret Chamber / Minion was the most annoying thing ever and now Diplomat / Minion is quite nice.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2016, 09:22:44 pm by arcee »
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #237 on: September 24, 2016, 09:34:56 pm »
+1

Additionally for Intrigue:
- One card changed mildly (Masquerade skips players with no cards in hand)

Just noticed all of this.  First thought: our favorite pin doesn't exist anymore!
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #238 on: September 24, 2016, 09:35:30 pm »
+1

of course....someone has most likely observed this before me.  I just didn't read through all the other comments.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #239 on: September 24, 2016, 09:36:20 pm »
+1

Secret Passage is pretty much a redo of Haven, though I suppose it does let you save a key Reaction for the next turn, unlike Haven.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #240 on: September 24, 2016, 09:40:04 pm »
+1

Additional notes:

No use of while-in-play! I just noticed. Very nice.

Secret Chamber is a weak and annoying card, but I am still sad to see its unique effect go. Diplomat doesn't really give you the protection against decktop attacks, since you can't stack your deck with cards that you don't mind getting hit by Swindler or Knights or whatever.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #241 on: September 24, 2016, 10:57:53 pm »
0

Courtier is way to weak to be an replacement. Less fun than tribute IMO.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #242 on: September 24, 2016, 11:02:32 pm »
0

Lurker makes me think of StarCraft.

I think these are great changes. I like the new cards both gameplay wise and theme wise. In particular, Artisan is a nice replacement for Feast and helps players who went a bit overboard with terminals. Though now, there are less junky terminal trap cards to put in your deck in the first place.

Also nice that new players get to ponder why Bandit only costs $5.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #243 on: September 24, 2016, 11:04:35 pm »
+3

It's awesome that a lot of the new cards have women on them.  Helps correct the gender balance in the early sets. 

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #244 on: September 24, 2016, 11:05:45 pm »
+2

Courtier is way to weak to be an replacement. Less fun than tribute IMO.

Are you kidding?  Worst case, you've got either a terminal Gold or a Gold generator in your kingdom.  Average case you'll get that *and* it'll be nonterminal.  It's also a +Buy card, which is nice.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #245 on: September 25, 2016, 01:05:32 am »
+3

Now that Thief is gone, you can't steal exotic treasures from your opponents. You can still get them if you play Bandit and then Rogue or Graverobber, but only if they cost between and . With cost reduction you can still pull Platinum and Bank, but once a Fool's Gold is trashed, it's gone forever. Bandit seems to look more like Pirate Ship in that it doesn't really matter what you trash, the upside here is that you always attack and you always get the Gold, you don't have to choose.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #246 on: September 25, 2016, 02:03:02 am »
+1

   Re: Removed cards
Glad that Harem stayed. The only cut cards I'll miss are Spy and Scout, and Scout mainly because of its legacy of being terrible (and because it's fun in those extremely rare cases usually in designed kingdoms with Mystic and/or Inheritance).

Disappointed that there's no card that has a reaction like Secret Chamber's. I won't miss the card itself, but now I'll have to make a fan card that uses the reaction (or one very similar to it).

   Re: New cards
I really like the new cards, but there seems to be a bit of power creep.  Vassal seems stronger than Conspirator in action-heavy decks. Lurker can easily be OP in combination with TfB or trashing attacks. It makes Rogue look like the new Scout.
Harbinger is pretty similar to my Kingdom Restoration card, but different enough to use both.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2016, 02:04:42 am by LibraryAdventurer »
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #247 on: September 25, 2016, 02:14:54 am »
0

I am pretty sure Vassal is weaker than Conspirator, due to its inherent randomness (and also, being terminal if your deck is empty).
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #248 on: September 25, 2016, 02:37:14 am »
+1

Where (online) can I get the Update pack?
When I didn't see it on Amazon, I was hoping to order it from the RGG website, but you can't.

EDIT: nevermind I found (and ordered) it on miniaturemarket.com
« Last Edit: September 25, 2016, 02:48:57 am by LibraryAdventurer »
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #249 on: September 25, 2016, 02:40:01 am »
+3

Where (online) can I get the Update pack?
The future? The new stuff was announced to distributors at the same time as to the public, and people take time to react. Distributors have bought update packs so it's only a matter of time before they're offered for sale.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #250 on: September 25, 2016, 05:02:16 am »
+1

Coppermisth…  :'( :'( :'(
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #251 on: September 25, 2016, 05:26:54 am »
+2

Seriously, I don't get it.
Dominion is a great game because there is no stated strategies, not every game of dominion is about trashing coppers and creating an engine.
Coppersmith was rather a weak card but there is nothing wrong about that. Bureaucrat is also a weak card, that has more text and that is harder to remember, yet it stays.
I will miss coppersmith / apothecary / bank combos so much. All the new cards are nice, but none is unique like coppersmith.

I feel very frustrated because that's the only card I will really miss. Well, not quite, I will also miss Saboteur a little. But I'm glad to see all the other go.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #252 on: September 25, 2016, 05:53:30 am »
+3

The problem with Coppersmith was that was largely useless in the expansion that it was present in. Intrigue is an early expansion that I imagine many people tend to buy when their only other set is Base, and there are pretty much zero effective uses for coppersmith in Intrigue and Base.

So given that the early sets are more likely to be played in a situation where the pool of cards to choose from is at its lowest, it's much better all round to have the cards in Intrigue provide much more general purpose utility and variety. This way the expansion is more interesting at the time when it needs to provide the most impact. Coppersmith was simply too narrow and weak.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #253 on: September 25, 2016, 06:41:14 am »
+1

I feel the lack of Gardens-enablers worries me. I'm sad that thief goes. It was a good Gardens-enabler in 4p. It could have been tweaked to still do that, and not suck most of the other time. On top of that, we get a lot more engine-enablers. The new cards also cost more on average. Artisan is very likely to stop a Gardens-centered strategy cold rather than help it. Outside of a Workshop-Gardens combo, will Gardens be relegated to consolidation price status in the base set? That would be a shame for such a cool card. Not everyone who picks up the base set, even today, will go on and buy other expansions.

Yes, I'm a slogger at heart. Thief-Gardens in a 4p game was my first win and then I was hooked. I will miss that combo.  :'(
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #254 on: September 25, 2016, 06:47:24 am »
+1

The problem with Coppersmith was that was largely useless in the expansion that it was present in. Intrigue is an early expansion that I imagine many people tend to buy when their only other set is Base, and there are pretty much zero effective uses for coppersmith in Intrigue and Base.

So given that the early sets are more likely to be played in a situation where the pool of cards to choose from is at its lowest, it's much better all round to have the cards in Intrigue provide much more general purpose utility and variety. This way the expansion is more interesting at the time when it needs to provide the most impact. Coppersmith was simply too narrow and weak.
That's a good point. As someone who always play all set mixed anyway, I deplore that dominion cards depends so much on the expansion they are in. Like, Cultist is a broken card I would be glad to see updated, but it is neither from base game nor from intrigue…
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #255 on: September 25, 2016, 07:01:59 am »
+3

I feel the lack of Gardens-enablers worries me. I'm sad that thief goes. It was a good Gardens-enabler in 4p. It could have been tweaked to still do that, and not suck most of the other time. On top of that, we get a lot more engine-enablers. The new cards also cost more on average. Artisan is very likely to stop a Gardens-centered strategy cold rather than help it. Outside of a Workshop-Gardens combo, will Gardens be relegated to consolidation price status in the base set? That would be a shame for such a cool card. Not everyone who picks up the base set, even today, will go on and buy other expansions.

Yes, I'm a slogger at heart. Thief-Gardens in a 4p game was my first win and then I was hooked. I will miss that combo.  :'(
Honestly I think the addition of Artisan and a bunch of cantrips will help Gardens rather than hurt it. Gaining Festivals and Markets is really good for gardens based strategies and cantrips are nice anyway.

The problem Base had before was that Gardens was usually its own thing rather than adding to other strategies. Much of the time you went Workshop + Gardens or you never bothered with gardens, but now Gardens have the opportunity to be complementary to other strategies so is all round more useful, because you can now much more easily bloat your deck with useful stuff rather than a bunch of crappy stop cards.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #256 on: September 25, 2016, 07:18:34 am »
+9

Imagine my excitement when I first heard about this tremendous opportunity to do the right thing... and the ensuing disappointment upon learning that Swindler was still there :(
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #257 on: September 25, 2016, 07:23:10 am »
+13

Imagine my excitement when I first heard about this tremendous opportunity to do the right thing... and the ensuing disappointment upon learning that Swindler was still there :(
Also, Silver is still in the Base game!
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #258 on: September 25, 2016, 07:24:30 am »
+2

How do you feel about all these new cards requiring you to play Silver, SCSN?
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #259 on: September 25, 2016, 08:14:58 am »
+10

I'm happy that Silver's weakness was recognized and it's now getting all these buffs.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #260 on: September 25, 2016, 08:42:43 am »
+6

Seriously, I don't get it.
Dominion is a great game because there is no stated strategies, not every game of dominion is about trashing coppers and creating an engine.
Coppersmith was rather a weak card but there is nothing wrong about that. Bureaucrat is also a weak card, that has more text and that is harder to remember, yet it stays.
I will miss coppersmith / apothecary / bank combos so much. All the new cards are nice, but none is unique like coppersmith.

This is all well and good, but the problem with the base set is that there weren't *enough* engine enablers to begin with. Almost every campaign game on MF with Council Room in it is going to be BM+CR. Big Money is just too strong in the first edition, and that leads to players thinking Dominion is just a boring game of buying Treasures.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #261 on: September 25, 2016, 08:43:38 am »
+3

Thoughts on base game :
Removed -
Adventurer : Fine, it was too weak and even when it shined it wasn't that interesting anyway. Venture is the fixed version.
Spy : Not interesting, too annoying, it was a nice cantrip for conspirator but we have ton of those
Thief : Too weak and i'm glad with the corrected versions anyway (noble brigand has more flavor than bandit though)
Feast : I like feast, all cards don't have to be game-changers. But I can live without
Chancellor : We have messenger and Scavenger now, so it's ok to lose it. I liked the "puzzler" thing.
Woodcutter : No love for this card. I liked its simplicity, that's all.

New -
Artisan : Great, I like cards that gain things in hand, it creates interesting tactic decisions.
Bandit : I'm not so fond of gold-gainers, I'm the kind of guy who often skip gold just to buy more engine pieces. But why not.
Sentry : I like the trash/discard choice, if i remember correctly, lookout is the only other card who does that. Good spy variant.
Poacher : Interesting. I don't think this discard thing will hurt very often (late game, so can discard victory cards easily) so I guess this will be rarely more than peddler.
Harbinger : I would've like this card to be named "pearl diver"
Vassal : Interesting simpler version of herald

Overall I think Donald did a good job at designing simple cards that still link to the old ones. Maybe we needed another garden enabler, because workshop is a little bit boring.
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allanfieldhouse

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #262 on: September 25, 2016, 09:44:14 am »
+3

Quote
Sentry Action $5
+1 Card
+1 Action
Look at the top 2 cards of your deck.
Trash and/or discard any number of them.
Put the rest back in any order.

On first glance, I love Sentry. I initially wanted to compare it to other cantrip trashers like Junk Dealer and Upgrade, but I don't think those comparisons work that well because of the differences between "trash from hand" vs "trash from deck".

So the obvious "trash from deck" comparison is Lookout. The thing that bothers me about Lookout is the forced aspect of the choices. Sentry solves that by making all of the choices optional. And it's a cantrip. And you can trash 2 cards with it. And after you're done trashing, it's a mini-Cartographer.

The one comparison I do really like with Junk Dealer and Upgrade is the worst-case scenario. The worst case for Sentry is that it's a cantrip. Worst case for the other 2 is they trash your Colony.

Overall, I think this card will be a power-trasher that retains its usefulness in the late game through its sifting ability. I think this will be ranked very high on the $5 card list.
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Chris is me

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #263 on: September 25, 2016, 10:09:09 am »
+5

Removing Coppersmith wasn't for you. It wasn't because it didn't have a niche engine case. The problem is that it's such a trap card for new and casual players, and it's really a lot harder to work with than it looks, so people get suckered into buying it, and it's skipped most games.

All of these changes make Dominion better, even if the replacements don't do the same things in all cases. If this was the Base Set my friends and I played with, more of them would have been hooked and would stop thinking of Dominion as a "solved" game.

Imagine my excitement when I first heard about this tremendous opportunity to do the right thing... and the ensuing disappointment upon learning that Swindler was still there :(

On first read through, I missed Swindler still being in the game and I got up and cheered. I actually ran around the room excited that this terrible, swingy card was removed from the game. But then I saw it was still there.

It's probably okay design wise, but I never enjoy playing it. It's just something you have to do and then your deck has no stability.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2016, 10:11:37 am by Chris is me »
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #264 on: September 25, 2016, 10:11:08 am »
+1

I feel the lack of Gardens-enablers worries me. I'm sad that thief goes. It was a good Gardens-enabler in 4p. It could have been tweaked to still do that, and not suck most of the other time. On top of that, we get a lot more engine-enablers. The new cards also cost more on average. Artisan is very likely to stop a Gardens-centered strategy cold rather than help it. Outside of a Workshop-Gardens combo, will Gardens be relegated to consolidation price status in the base set? That would be a shame for such a cool card. Not everyone who picks up the base set, even today, will go on and buy other expansions.

Yes, I'm a slogger at heart. Thief-Gardens in a 4p game was my first win and then I was hooked. I will miss that combo.  :'(

Well, maybe playing engines is way more fun than playing a boring ol' slog game. If you love Thief that much, nobody is stopping you from playing with it. Donald has said himself that you can play with replaced cards if you so choose.

Coppersmith will be back in some form, I would imagine. All it really needed was a +buy, and it would be a lot better.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #265 on: September 25, 2016, 11:04:51 am »
+1

Ha, i predicted the removed cards correctly, hooray. I'm a bit surprised by cards playing cards from your deck and cards giving money when you play another card in base, but in general i don't really have an opinion on the new cards yet.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #266 on: September 25, 2016, 11:08:27 am »
+4

Ha, i predicted the removed cards correctly, hooray. I'm a bit surprised by cards playing cards from your deck and cards giving money when you play another card in base, but in general i don't really have an opinion on the new cards yet.

I think it more clearly establishes the whole thing where playing cards only takes an action if prompted. It's nice that the ability is on a terminal action to make this super obvious.
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Mr Anderson

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #267 on: September 25, 2016, 11:09:43 am »
+3

I like that there still is no card strictly better than the removed one at the same cost, Great Hall might look even sadder besides Mill, but that is about it. Bandit can't steal Kingdom Treasures and Platinum but kind of pales Thief in comparison (which card doesn't, though).
Thanks for the new cards, they look interesting as all new cards do. Again, you can just praise the Donald X's work.

Btw, the extra and in the Base Set as well as more non-terminals look good, however, I would have preferred an extra plain +buy card over the extra gainer.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2016, 11:13:22 am by Mr Anderson »
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #268 on: September 25, 2016, 11:22:18 am »
+1

I don't know in which thread I have to post my thoughts, nevermind.
About Intrigue :
Removed -
Secret chamber : SC was always a weird card, certainly not an uninteresting one, but both part could have been stronger. The reaction was sometimes useful but never really exciting. And the relation between the action and reaction part exists (trading bad cards for another thing) but not so much obvious. I'm pleased that Donald used SC's concepts for new cards.
Great Hall : I like Great hall in the same way I like Pearl Diver. Both are never more than slightly useful, but they are never useless. Of course, they can hurt in some decks. If in every dominion game we had 10 game-changing card, it would be too much. So I think there were no need to remove Great Hall. But now, I'm happy with Mill.
Coppersmith:'(
Scout : I'm very happy with the new fixed version of scout. It's very different now that it's a terminal card, but the spirit is not lost.
Saboteur : I think Saboteur is quite a high-skill card, but I agree that it was too often useless. I would have liked a slightly improved saboteur, but losing saboteur is not the end of the world.
Tribute : Tribute was too swingy, otherwise I think the design idea was really great. I'm not very satisfied with Courtier.

New cards :

Courtier : The thing is, it's too easy. You just reveal the card that has the most types, but there is no difference between revealing a harem or a militia, in contrary to the old tribute. I think it lacks of interesting decisions. I would have loved a card that said "reveal a card from your hand, if it's a [card type], you get [bonus], etc for all card types" that would fix the thing I dislike from tribute (randomness) and at the same time creates more interesting decisions.
Patrol : Love this new scout.
Replace : That's an unexpected new remodel. You may want to gain estates only for the junk part. I like it.
Diplomat : Seems awesome against hand-reducers, and hand-reducers tend to be sometimes quite boring, so I really like this card. I think activating the village effect will be almost as satisfying as revealing a hand without duplicates with menagerie. And I like how it's kind of the opposite of shanty town.
Mill : Mixing great hall and secret chamber was a clever idea.
Secret passage : I fear that this may slow down the game a lot, when played in chain. And I think "putting anywhere in your deck" will, in practice, mean either the top either the bottom of the deck. So I think I don't like it so much.
Lurker : I think I like it. It could be quite strong in games with TfB (replace!), otherwise if you manage to play it two times in a turn, which won't be so hard I guess, it could be very powerful.

I think unlike base game, there were no particular need to update Intrigue. Only Scout and Secret chamber were the bad-designed cards IMO (maybe tribute too because it scales too much on the number of players wrong). I'm a bit disappointed by courtier and secret passage, but maybe I will enjoy them after all. Otherwise, nice new cards.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2016, 11:38:45 am by brokoli »
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #269 on: September 25, 2016, 11:37:05 am »
0

Mill might lead to a couple of bad jokes, by the way. Something along the lines of 'Mill sucks, it doesn't actually mill', or something. I'm sure someone will come up with something more witty.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #270 on: September 25, 2016, 11:44:48 am »
+2

Best part about Sentry: unlike Spy, it actually synergizes with Wishing Well, Herald, etc.

Strategy question: when do you buy Cartographer over Sentry?
« Last Edit: September 25, 2016, 11:46:21 am by werothegreat »
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #271 on: September 25, 2016, 11:50:55 am »
0

Imagine my excitement when I first heard about this tremendous opportunity to do the right thing... and the ensuing disappointment upon learning that Swindler was still there :(

On first read through, I missed Swindler still being in the game and I got up and cheered. I actually ran around the room excited that this terrible, swingy card was removed from the game. But then I saw it was still there.

This happened to me with Chapel. Except I didn't actually run around the room.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #272 on: September 25, 2016, 11:53:21 am »
+1

Strategy question: when do you buy Cartographer over Sentry?

When you've already trashed down, so the trashing function of Sentry is moot. If you don't need the trashing, Cartographer is better because it sees more cards. I guess you might actually need neither of those cards in most of those situations, though, so Cartographer becomes a bit more niche than it already was...
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #273 on: September 25, 2016, 12:11:09 pm »
0

I'm happy that Silver's weakness was recognized and it's now getting all these buffs.

I agree. I was hoping Swindler would get removed. I've had too many games destroyed because of that card. Toning the attacks in Intrigue one step further would have been a good thing.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #274 on: September 25, 2016, 12:24:27 pm »
0

Coppersmith, Thief, etc. had some interesting cases where they would shine but the cards themselves did not work as printed. I'm hoping their abilities will show up in some future card that people actually buy (kind of like Venture was to Adventurer).
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #275 on: September 25, 2016, 12:33:06 pm »
+7

I have a lot to say about the new cards. I will start with the removed cards first (Base and Intrigue), and then I will get to discussing the new cards in proper detail.

Secret Chamber: I'm probably one of the few people who actually likes Secret Chamber's on-play effect as a card. It worked well enough with Scrying Pool and Tactician decks. However, Storeroom and Vault do the same thing but better. Secret Chamber will not be missed. The reaction is just plain awful.

Great Hall: People always talk about how much they love Great Hall. I don't get the love. It's a cantrip Estate. What's the big deal? It's pretty awful design, and it's something you buy when you have nothing better to buy. Never a good way to design a card. Sure, Mill isn't great, but at least it provides options sometimes. Great Hall is just plain boring, which is the worst crime a Dominion card can commit.

Coppersmith: Out of all of the Dominion cards replaced, I am going to miss Coppersmith the most. Let's face it, Coppersmith's effect is really cool. If it only had a +buy, it would be a lot stronger. A lot of players play with this once or twice and then give up on it. I think it is worth salvaging for another expansion, and I am certain Donald will do some refreshing take on the concept then.

Scout: Scout had to go. It is the worst card in Dominion.

Saboteur: Saboteur had the amazing ability to make you very angry at your opponent while still knowing you would just likely win the game. Saboteur is just a pure awful card. It's not fun getting hit with it, and it's not fun to use. Even Swindler is a card that is fun to use sometimes, even when I have such a mixed relationship with it.

Tribute: I wish Donald had kept Tribute, or perhaps just buffed it. It was a weak card, but I will have more to say on this when we reach Courtier.

Adventurer: This card needed to be replaced. It was almost never good. The only time it was nice is when Venture basically did the same thing but better, and for cheaper. Adventurer might be just as bad at $3. It's basically a 'can't miss' Moat draw, and it also skips Actions to boot. It would be a fine BM card then, at least.

Spy: Spy is not a fun card, and that is its gravest sin. Spy is fine enough as a card, although it is a bit on the weaker side. However, waiting for ages for the opponent to make a decision with multiple Spies on Dominion Online implementations was the worst thing since Pol Pot, so I am perfectly fine with this card burning in development hell for eternity.

Thief: Thief is just plain ol' awful. I don't really have to say anything about Thief, do I?

Feast: I had a proposed fix for Feast where if you trashed it as well, it would do the same effect as if you played it. This would make it a bit stronger for trash-for-benefit, as well as you not being too sad with a Chapel/Feast opening collision. See? Feast is kind of awesome then! I think the Feast card could be fixed somehow in some way, and I hope we see another variant of Feast in the future.

Chancellor: I like deck discarders a lot, but now that we have Scavenger and Messenger, do we really need Chancellor now? I know I speak for everyone when I say we will miss that butt chin.

Woodcutter: A sad card. Out of all of the cards, Woodcutter was simply the most likely to get canned.

Now onto the new cards.

Courtier: This might be worse than Tribute. At least Tribute provided +Actions in some engines. Courtier does not provide anything of use besides a sucky +buy. Courtier proves that people will pay $5 for a +buy. Courtier is a 'suck it up you loser' card. It also buffs Dame Josephine.  ;D I feel like people misread this card sometimes as well. Courtier will be nice with cards like Bridge Troll or other Attack Durations. However, out of all of the new cards, Courtier is likely the saddest of the bunch.

Diplomat:
I hate this card too. It's a really eh Reaction. It's basically the fixed version of Secret Chamber's deck inspection. It's still word hell. Draw two cards and if you have 5 cards you get +2 actions and when someone plays an attack card you get to draw two and discard three and I still hate it. Imagine using this card as the only village though. That would be kind of a neat challenge.

Lurker: This is the ultimate $2 card. It's a fine opening on a $5/$2, and it eventually pays off. It's lumbering and slow, but I do enjoy this card very much.

Mill: Why does everyone hate this card? It's so much better than Great Hall. Oh no, you might have to discard two cards and get $2 out of it. It combos with so many draw to X cards, and it's also choice based and makes you think, unlike dumb ol' Great Hall. I love Mill.

Patrol: This might be a great BM card. It makes your next turn a lot better. It can draw upwards of seven cards on a single play. Might be one of the better draw cards in the game. Journeyman is a bit better for engines, but I cannot help but compare Patrol with Journeyman.

Replace: The Remodel we have always hoped for. It's a Remodel with Benefits. It won't ask you for anything in return. It won't bring drama into the home. You can topdeck Action cards and Treasures, or get Provinces and hurt your opponent. It's not a fantastically great card, but it is a good one.

Secret Passage: We lose one horrible card with Secret in the name, and now we get another awful card with Secret in the name. More waiting for the opponent to make the decision on what to discard and where in the deck to discard it. I cannot wait. Ugh.

Artisan: The new 'Feast', although it is more like Altar. I am not certain it is all that great, but it makes you think. It can get Duchies and unlike Altar, you don't have to trash to get them, which is a bonus. Something I have not seen talked about, the card you gain can be topdecked!

Bandit: I don't know why, but I am in love with this card. I know it's not that great, but I just can't help but just like this card. It makes me smile just looking at it. Maybe it recaptures that first Thief game I had. Maybe it's a nostalgia thing. I don't know.

Harbringer: We all knew this card was going to exist one day. All of the experts tell me it is not very strong. I say it is in certin situations. You can chain together a singular Goons every turn (until you shuffle), and you can combo it with other cards as well. You get to topdeck that Fortune over and over. Followers. Trusty Steed. A key draw card. It's versatile. I like it. Many interesting options.

Merchant: Another card I really like, despite being very simple. A super cheap Peddler on the condition that you play a Silver. An engine can support a singular Silver. That's not a problem!

Poacher: Basically the same thing as Merchant, but guaranteed. It also sucks if you emptied them. If your opponent goes mass Poacher, you can punish him by emptying the pile. Poacher makes you not Poach too much, or else you face consequences. It's so thematic! I love it, even though it's pretty much the same as Merchant in execution.

Sentry: WOW this card is strong. It is stronger than Junk Dealer. There's nothing else to say. It's absurd how good this card is.

Vassal: I love that this card is a lame Herald. I also love that it combos with Harbringer and other cards. You also don't have to play the Action card you discard. Options. I like it. This is what Duchess should have been.

Those are my thoughts.
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trivialknot

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #276 on: September 25, 2016, 12:42:06 pm »
+3

Impressions of new cards:

Artisan - At first I missed that the gained card goes to hand, and it just seemed weaker than Altar.  But you can gain to hand!!  And if you gained an action dead, you can just top-deck it.  This seems strong.
Bandit - Thief was an interesting card, but it was so weak that we almost never get to try it.  I'm excited to see a thief-like card that is actually playable.  It still looks weak, but not unplayably weak.
Sentry - So obviously very strong.  There are only a few other trashers that don't decrease your hand size (Masquerade, Spice Merchant).
Poacher - I'm excited to switch to talking about "Poacher variants" instead of "Peddler variants".
Merchant - An interesting Poacher variant.  Newbies tend to miss that silver is a really good card, and this could help them see it.
Harbinger - This seems a lot swingier than Scheme.
Vassal - Nice card, although I think it is on the weak side.  If you draw a Vassal and another terminal, choosing Vassal is a risky decision.

Courtier - This is really bad if you only get one of the options, but great if you get two.  I don't really like the fact that its power seems so arbitrary.
Patrol - This is a lot worse than Scout at countering Rabble.
Replace - A top-decking Remodel is interesting enough, and it's a curser too?  I think it will feel different from most cursers, because it happens only in the greening stage.
Diplomat - Agree with others that this is a confusing card.  It's awful without support, but awesome with it.
Mill - I think this card is, at the moment, being way underrated.  It's comparable to Horse Traders in that it will very often help you hit $5, except it's nonterminal and can be used as a cantrip when you don't want it.  Would buy even without the VP.
Secret Passage - This is an intriguing card.  So do you use this to smooth out your deck, or do you use it as a quasi-fugitive by bottom-decking cards?
Lurker - I think people are overestimating this card.  Playing two ruined villages to gain an action, that's so weak.  I could have bought silvers and then bought the action directly.  Of course, regardless of power level, it's a great card.  It's also nice that it sort of introduces newbies to the idea of pile control, although it doesn't hit you over the head with it.
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RevanFan

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #277 on: September 25, 2016, 02:27:56 pm »
0

Where (online) can I get the Update pack?
When I didn't see it on Amazon, I was hoping to order it from the RGG website, but you can't.

EDIT: nevermind I found (and ordered) it on miniaturemarket.com
How reliable is Miniature Market? I don't want to wait for Amazon, and my FLGS is unreliable for getting games on time.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #278 on: September 25, 2016, 02:30:02 pm »
0

I like that Replace is a late-game curser.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #279 on: September 25, 2016, 02:30:25 pm »
0

I think we'll have to wait to see what Courtier is really like. To me it just seems odd. A terminal + isn't that bad, Mandarin and Count give you this but with drawbacks. That will probably be most people's first choice, unless they need the buy or the Gold gaining. As for the second, either +Action or +Buy, depending on whatever else is in hand. 

It was mentioned before, but it'll be interesting to see how many cards have 2 or more types. Of course you have to get them in hand for it to mean anything, but lining things up with another useful card might not be that hard (vs. say, Baron in the mid-late game). This does give new meaning to cards that have types that otherwise don't seem to mean much, like Prize, Castle, Gathering, etc.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #280 on: September 25, 2016, 02:39:25 pm »
0

Courtier is generally a weaker Explorer.
Provinces are more common than multi-type cards.
Revealing province practically does the same thing that the gold gain +dollars
Not revealing a multi type card gets you a terminal gold or a gold gain
Not revealing a province gets you a silver and two coins.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #281 on: September 25, 2016, 02:41:44 pm »
0

I think we'll have to wait to see what Courtier is really like. To me it just seems odd. A terminal + isn't that bad, Mandarin and Count give you this but with drawbacks. That will probably be most people's first choice, unless they need the buy or the Gold gaining. As for the second, either +Action or +Buy, depending on whatever else is in hand. 

It was mentioned before, but it'll be interesting to see how many cards have 2 or more types. Of course you have to get them in hand for it to mean anything, but lining things up with another useful card might not be that hard (vs. say, Baron in the mid-late game). This does give new meaning to cards that have types that otherwise don't seem to mean much, like Prize, Castle, Gathering, etc.
Count is primarily used for trashing. It will much stronger than courtier. Mandrin is really weak and courtier doesn't do much to fix this.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #282 on: September 25, 2016, 02:48:44 pm »
+2

Courtier is generally a weaker Explorer.
Provinces are more common than multi-type cards.
Revealing province practically does the same thing that the gold gain +dollars
Not revealing a multi type card gets you a terminal gold or a gold gain
Not revealing a province gets you a silver and two coins.

To be fair, while Province is in every game, if a multi-type card is in a game, it's going to be a lot easier to get than Province.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #283 on: September 25, 2016, 03:05:34 pm »
+1

I like that Replace is a late-game curser.

It also makes picking Harem over Gold or whatever a little more appealing.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #284 on: September 25, 2016, 03:06:48 pm »
+3

I like that Replace is a late-game curser.

It also makes picking Harem over Gold or whatever a little more appealing.

You get to topdeck that Harem, so I'm not completely sure. I mean, you end up having to look at it. Ew.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #285 on: September 25, 2016, 03:56:48 pm »
+2

Harbringer:

For a long time I thought this was how it was spelled. It's not a word you hear often so seeing it written you think "har-bringer" but really there's no second r.

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #286 on: September 25, 2016, 03:58:52 pm »
+13

Decided to make a quick goodbye video :P

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #287 on: September 25, 2016, 07:03:51 pm »
+1

Lurker / Lurker / turn 3 Donate seems like a fun opening. At least if there are good Actions that give +$.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #288 on: September 25, 2016, 08:46:39 pm »
0

Decided to make a quick goodbye video :P



Watched and enjoyed.  Will watch the video on the 14 (15 (16)) new cards if you make one.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #289 on: September 25, 2016, 09:46:45 pm »
0

I like that Replace is a late-game curser.

It also makes picking Harem over Gold or whatever a little more appealing.

You get to topdeck that Harem, so I'm not completely sure. I mean, you end up having to look at it. Ew.

Joke's at you, because Harem is here to stay.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #290 on: September 25, 2016, 10:08:36 pm »
+1

Decided to make a quick goodbye video :P

Vidya

Watched and enjoyed.  Will watch the video on the 14 (15 (16)) new cards if you make one.

After watching, I'm even more convinced we should drop the removed cards from the rankings.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #291 on: September 25, 2016, 10:15:02 pm »
0

As for Intrigue, Patrol is quite the Scout buff. It seems kind of strong actually. Also, I'm surprised get another Smithy variant since Envoy was removed for that reason.

Envoy's not from Intrigue, it wasn't removed from anything.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #292 on: September 25, 2016, 10:17:49 pm »
0

As for Intrigue, Patrol is quite the Scout buff. It seems kind of strong actually. Also, I'm surprised get another Smithy variant since Envoy was removed for that reason.

Envoy's not from Intrigue, it wasn't removed from anything.

I think he meant Envoy was removed from Intrigue before the first edition was published.

Quote from: Intrigue Secret History
- Envoy left the set and then became a promo. I am kind of embarassed by it - it left this set because it didn't add enough to the game, and then it became a promo and well that's still an issue, right? It does at least have the merit there of not making people feel as much like they have to have it. But the thing is, we found out we needed the promo the same day it was needed. There was no time to test a new card, and Envoy was one of a small number of cards that had actually had some external playtesting (other than the cards in the set, which I didn't want to give up). And I do like the card; it totally could have made a later expansion, providing some card-drawing for that expansion and a new experience, if not new decks. They can't all be Gardens. It's just sad to have this early on because each card matters more now; with just the main set you only have 25 cards and this one does not carve out much new territory. Anyway I suggested it for the promo and it escaped to promo-land and so much for that. Over time it will matter less that it doesn't add so much.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #293 on: September 25, 2016, 10:39:53 pm »
+5

I think a big winner from Base is Workshop, in terms of both strength and interestingness. We now have twice as many cheap cantrips (ish) (6 up from 3 including TR and Vassal), and of the new ones, they're generally more interesting than "You want as many as possible" - it's risky to have too many Poachers or Vassals without the right support, and you need enough Silvers for Merchant to be worth it (which obviously you can use Workshop to pick up as well).
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #294 on: September 26, 2016, 12:08:33 am »
+4

First impressions!  (Thanks to Nolan, Mameluke and Marcory for compiling the text.)

I wrote this before reading most of the discussion that followed.  I'm reading that discussion now, before posting this, and I'll try to bold any of my observations that weren't already mentioned by others.

Quote
[/u]Artisan Action
Gain a card to your hand costing up to $5.
Put a card from you hand on to your deck.

Feast replacement?  No self-trashing though, so this reminds me more of Workshop which hasn't[/b] been removed.  The top-deck requirement is a cool, underused thing to include.  The good thing about it is that it gives the player a more interesting decision than discarding, and it could be either a benefit or a drawback for the card depending on your hand and how you use it.

Oh, maybe this is also partially the Adventurer replacement -- $6 cost, thing goes into your hand.

Quote
Bandit Action
Gain a Gold.
Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of their deck, trashes a revealed treasure other than Copper, and discards the rest.

Basically this is what you always wanted to do with Thief in Base-only games -- trash good treasures, gain the Gold.  Bandit is Thief at its best in Base-only (at least for 2p games).

Quote
Sentry Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
Look at the top 2 cards of your deck.
Trash and/or discard any number of them.
Put the rest back in any order.

Replacement for Spy, right?  Now more functional with expanded surveillance and optional trashing, but without the slow attack.  Seems like a much stronger Lookout, which I'm fond of already.  The name reflects that too!

Quote
Poacher Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
+
Discard a card per empty supply pile.

Closest thing to the theoretical basic Peddler so far; AJD mentioned how this is the first "strictly" worse Peddler we've gotten.  It's interesting because it may not actually be a drawback very often -- it obviously doesn't apply early and often not into the mid-game, and when it does start to kick in then you'll often be greening and/or have a way to draw junk into your hand to discard, so it's a minor penalty overall.  The cool design aspect of this extra line is that it doesn't close off design space via "strictly better/worse" walls.

Quote
Harbinger Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
Look through your discard pile. 
You may put a card from it onto your deck.

RIP fan card name.  I've seen lots of variations on this general concept and made a few fan cards like it myself, so I'm definitely a fan.  It has plenty of uses (obvious one: slower but potentially wider-reaching Scheme), but its main weakness will be Counting House syndrome -- draw it too early in your shuffle and it won't do much for you.

It bothers me a tiny bit that it says "onto your deck" instead of "on top of your deck".

I guess I'll count this as the Chancellor replacement?  Not really similar at all, but they both interact with the discard pile, ha.  Or maybe it's more like Adventurer, but with more flexibility (depending on size of discard pile).

Quote
Merchant Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
The first time you play a Silver this turn +.

I'm surprised that this is in Base instead of in Intrigue, since this is a Coppersmith/Peddler hybrid and Base is already getting Poacher, but I guess Coppersmith wasn't really on-theme for Intrigue anyway.

I don't know about this one.  My first impression is that this would be really easy to use, so it may as well just be a straight up Peddler for $3.  Still, a restriction is a restriction.

Quote
Vassal Action
+
Discard the top card of your deck. If it is an Action card, you may play it.

It's a Herald variant!  It'll play very differently since it's "terminal" and optional, and the guaranteed discard is a small change as well.  Sounds neat.  If you can flip non-terminals with it, it's like an activated Conspirator!

Didn't really identify something as "the Woodcutter replacement", so Vassal can be it.  They're both terminal Silver, sort of!  (I know removals and replacements aren't supposed to match up perfectly.)

Quote
Courtier Action
Reveal a card from your hand.
For each type it has (Action, Attack, etc.), choose one: +1 Action, or +1 Buy, or +, or gain a Gold.'
The choices must be different.

Tribute replacement.  It loses the minor player interaction of Tribute, but lots of inexperienced players disliked it anyway (I've seen plenty of people complain about it being an attack, heh).  The change makes it more reliable, and the Pawn-like choices make it flexible.  The non-vanilla options stand out to me because if you choose those two specifically, this is effectively Explorer.

Quote
Patrol Action
+3 Cards.
Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Put the Victory cards and Curse cards into your hand. Put the rest back in any order.

I think this is an excellent new take on Scout.  The 4 card filtering should feel pretty great on top of the +3 cards -- you could draw up to 7 cards in one go!  Most of those 7 cards would be junk, but it would still be fun to have that huge draw from just one play.

Quote
Replace Action/Attack
Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing up to more than the trashed card. If the gained card is an Action or Treasure, put it onto your deck. If it's a Victory card, each other player gains a Curse.

Remodel variant, not really a direct replacement.  Saboteur maybe, since it's an Attack (but a really different one). 

As a second Curser for Intrigue, it's nice for those groups out there who permaban Torturer.

Quote
Diplomat Action/Reaction
+2 Cards.
If you have 5 or fewer cards in hand (after drawing), +2 Actions
-----------------
When another player plays an Attack card, you may first reveal this from a hand of 5 or more cards, to draw 2 cards then discard 3.

The top is an interesting parallel to Shanty Town.  The reaction makes this the Secret Chamber replacement, and it seems like a good change.  This version of the reaction leaves your hand 1 card smaller, but discarding instead of putting cards back on top is usually going to be better for you, I think.

I'm curious about why it got the awkward phrasing to prevent multiple uses of it.  Did it slow the game too much and become unfun for players as they used it multiple times to try to get a better hand, only to end up hurting themselves?

Quote
Mill Action/Victory
Worth 1
+1 Card
+1 Action.
You may discard 2 cards for

Great Hall, now with a partial Secret Chamber effect.  Sounds like a fine improvement.

Quote
Secret Passage Action
+2 Cards
+1 Action
Take a card from your hand and put it anywhere in your deck.

What stands out to me the most is that this is a variation on the "Lab, discard 1" outtake which was deemed too strong for $4.  Here, instead of discarding, it's "put it anywhere in your deck".  Like Artisan, doing this instead of discarding is a neat change.  I guess it works because putting cards back is often worse than discarding, because you can't just toss the junk.  If you put junk back, it'll come back to hurt you.

With this card, at least you can put the junk on bottom.  You also have the option to top-deck something, or to put it second from the top for combos with Wishing Well and other cantrips that care about the top of your deck.  Are there any other deck positions that really matter besides bottom, top, second from top?  I guess sometimes you'll want to put stuff just low enough that you'll get it next hand, but it won't interfere with any additional draw you'll play this turn.

Overall, I really, really like "put it anywhere in your deck" and I can't believe it didn't exist already.  I wish I had thought of it and put it on some fan cards earlier.

Quote
Lurker Action
+1 Action.
 Choose one: Trash an Action card from the Supply, or gain an Action card from the trash.

I feel like this has to exist as a fan card somewhere already.  It kind of makes me nervous, but I guess it's a good thing that it has some second-player advantage.  If multiple players open with it, it'll be risky for the first person to play it to trash a good action card.  I wonder how often the right move will be to open double Lurker (which, if successful, combine into "Gain any Action card from the Supply").  Probably not often, but... sometimes?



Some notes after reading other posts...

@Seprix -- it's Harbinger, not Harbringer.  I see that J Reggie already pointed it out, but I needed to mention it myself. :P  Also note that the -g sound there is like in "binge". 

@trivialknot -- they'll always be Peddler variants to me.
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Donald X.

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #295 on: September 26, 2016, 12:40:10 am »
+4

Vassal costs $3.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #296 on: September 26, 2016, 01:54:50 am »
0

Quote
Harbinger Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
Look through your discard pile. 
You may put a card from it onto your deck.

This seems like a rather... Demonic... harbinger.

Quote
@Seprix -- it's Harbinger, not Harbringer.  I see that J Reggie already pointed it out, but I needed to mention it myself. :P  Also note that the -g sound there is like in "binge".

Harbinjrer?
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #297 on: September 26, 2016, 02:00:51 am »
+4

Quote
Harbinger Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
Look through your discard pile. 
You may put a card from it onto your deck.

I guess I'll count this as the Chancellor replacement?  Not really similar at all, but they both interact with the discard pile, ha.  Or maybe it's more like Adventurer, but with more flexibility (depending on size of discard pile).

I think it's not that far off from Chancellor—it shares the function of allowing you to get back to a key card from your discard pile without having to wait for a reshuffle.

Quote
Quote
Merchant Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
The first time you play a Silver this turn +.

I don't know about this one.  My first impression is that this would be really easy to use, so it may as well just be a straight up Peddler for $3.  Still, a restriction is a restriction.

Consider the value of openings when you consider low-cost cards. If you open double-Merchant, it does nothing for you—that's why it's not just a Peddler for $3. Even if you open Merchant/Silver, there's only, what, a 44% chance that that Merchant will be a Peddler the first time you play it.

Quote
Didn't really identify something as "the Woodcutter replacement", so Vassal can be it.  They're both terminal Silver, sort of!  (I know removals and replacements aren't supposed to match up perfectly.)

Artisan is also kind of a Woodcutter replacement—the set loses a +buy, but uh gains a gain.

Quote
Quote
Diplomat Action/Reaction
+2 Cards.
If you have 5 or fewer cards in hand (after drawing), +2 Actions
-----------------
When another player plays an Attack card, you may first reveal this from a hand of 5 or more cards, to draw 2 cards then discard 3.

The top is an interesting parallel to Shanty Town.  The reaction makes this the Secret Chamber replacement, and it seems like a good change.  This version of the reaction leaves your hand 1 card smaller, but discarding instead of putting cards back on top is usually going to be better for you, I think.

I guess? The thing I like about Secret Chamber is its defense against deck-top attacks, and this doesn't really help with those.

Quote
Quote
Secret Passage Action
+2 Cards
+1 Action
Take a card from your hand and put it anywhere in your deck.


Overall, I really, really like "put it anywhere in your deck" and I can't believe it didn't exist already.

(Stash)

Quote
Quote
Lurker Action
+1 Action.
 Choose one: Trash an Action card from the Supply, or gain an Action card from the trash.

I feel like this has to exist as a fan card somewhere already.  It kind of makes me nervous, but I guess it's a good thing that it has some second-player advantage.  If multiple players open with it, it'll be risky for the first person to play it to trash a good action card.  I wonder how often the right move will be to open double Lurker (which, if successful, combine into "Gain any Action card from the Supply").  Probably not often, but... sometimes?

Lurker obviously has different strengths and weaknesses, but Fool's Gold seems like a potentially illuminating comparison.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #298 on: September 26, 2016, 02:13:56 am »
0

Quote
Quote
Secret Passage Action
+2 Cards
+1 Action
Take a card from your hand and put it anywhere in your deck.


Overall, I really, really like "put it anywhere in your deck" and I can't believe it didn't exist already.

(Stash)

I meant a card that puts other cards anywhere, rather than just on top or on bottom.  Stash especially doesn't count because it's only on the reshuffle, which is a totally different dynamic than Secret Passage.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #299 on: September 26, 2016, 02:17:02 am »
0

this.
Quote
Diplomat Action/Reaction
+2 Cards.
If you have 5 or fewer cards in hand (after drawing), +2 Actions
-----------------
When another player plays an Attack card, you may first reveal this from a hand of 5 or more cards, to draw 2 cards then discard 3.

The top is an interesting parallel to Shanty Town.  The reaction makes this the Secret Chamber replacement, and it seems like a good change.  This version of the reaction leaves your hand 1 card smaller, but discarding instead of putting cards back on top is usually going to be better for you, I think.

I guess? The thing I like about Secret Chamber is its defense against deck-top attacks, and this doesn't really help with those.

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #300 on: September 26, 2016, 03:59:36 am »
+1

I'm not going to miss Coppersmith. It mattered so rarely.
The biggest disappointment is that we didn't get a replacement for Saboteur. I liked it (and Swindler) because they add the extra challenge of having a deck with fluid components. But one is swingy, and the other weak.

I hope we see a comeback of the Sab replacement effect on a somewhat more viable card, because playing against saboteur was really fun (and most often successful), with a good deal of interesting replacement decisions.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #301 on: September 26, 2016, 05:49:52 am »
+2

I like how Diplomat sets up itself through its reaction.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #302 on: September 26, 2016, 06:00:18 am »
0

I'm not going to miss Coppersmith. It mattered so rarely.
The biggest disappointment is that we didn't get a replacement for Saboteur. I liked it (and Swindler) because they add the extra challenge of having a deck with fluid components. But one is swingy, and the other weak.

I hope we see a comeback of the Sab replacement effect on a somewhat more viable card, because playing against saboteur was really fun (and most often successful), with a good deal of interesting replacement decisions.

I suspect it's because Swindler is the Saboteur replacement, and it was already in Intrigue.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #303 on: September 26, 2016, 06:35:15 am »
0

I'm not going to miss Coppersmith. It mattered so rarely.
The biggest disappointment is that we didn't get a replacement for Saboteur. I liked it (and Swindler) because they add the extra challenge of having a deck with fluid components. But one is swingy, and the other weak.

I hope we see a comeback of the Sab replacement effect on a somewhat more viable card, because playing against saboteur was really fun (and most often successful), with a good deal of interesting replacement decisions.

I suspect it's because Swindler is the Saboteur replacement, and it was already in Intrigue.

Yeah, I can see that. I still think that more "Replacement attacks" could be fun. :)

On a different note, I hope that Shuffle iT's Dominion will give out an achievement for activating all four bonuses on Courtier. :)
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #304 on: September 26, 2016, 06:41:52 am »
+8

So Lurker looks like a very nice combo with Cultist (and Rats and Squire, too). You can start double Lurker and gain two attacks via trashing Squires or take Lurkers to be double Labs via trashing Cultists. Yes, trash for benefit is good with Lurkers, but on-trash triggers even more so. This looks like a card that belonged in Dark Ages and didn't make the cut, or he got the idea too late.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #305 on: September 26, 2016, 07:26:28 am »
0

So for Courtier, how many cards have three or more types? I can think of—

Haunted Woods, Swamp Hag, Bridge Troll, Enchantress
Caravan Guard
Followers
Cultist, Marauder
Knights
Distant Lands
Warrior, Soldier
Humble Castle, Opulent Castle, Small Castle

Any I'm missing?
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #306 on: September 26, 2016, 07:30:05 am »
+2

Coppersmith is a shame, but in practise I guess I never really bought it.

I'm gonna miss Great Hall though. It's not a power card or anything but I was always fond of it. Interesting interactions, especially with Crossroads. But I guess Mill is very similar.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #307 on: September 26, 2016, 07:42:29 am »
+1

So for Courtier, how many cards have three or more types? I can think of—

Haunted Woods, Swamp Hag, Bridge Troll, Enchantress
Caravan Guard
Followers
Cultist, Marauder
Knights
Distant Lands
Warrior, Soldier
Humble Castle, Opulent Castle, Small Castle

Any I'm missing?

I can't think of any others, but Dame Josephine gets an honourable mention for having four types.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #308 on: September 26, 2016, 07:59:50 am »
+6

So for Courtier, how many cards have three or more types? I can think of—

Haunted Woods, Swamp Hag, Bridge Troll, Enchantress
Caravan Guard
Followers
Cultist, Marauder
Knights
Distant Lands
Warrior, Soldier
Humble Castle, Opulent Castle, Small Castle

Any I'm missing?

I can't think of any others, but Dame Josephine gets an honourable mention for having four types.

Also, Estate as a Knight, Looter, Duration-Attack or Caravan Guard.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #309 on: September 26, 2016, 08:10:00 am »
+1

So for Courtier, how many cards have three or more types? I can think of—

Haunted Woods, Swamp Hag, Bridge Troll, Enchantress
Caravan Guard
Followers
Cultist, Marauder
Knights
Distant Lands
Warrior, Soldier
Humble Castle, Opulent Castle, Small Castle

Any I'm missing?

I can't think of any others, but Dame Josephine gets an honourable mention for having four types.

Also, Estate as a Knight, Looter, Duration-Attack or Caravan Guard.

Actually, Estate as any Action–Reaction, Action–Attack, Action–Duration, etc.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #310 on: September 26, 2016, 09:00:05 am »
+1

Quote
[/u]Artisan Action
Gain a card to your hand costing up to $5.
Put a card from you hand on to your deck.

Feast replacement?  No self-trashing though, so this reminds me more of Workshop which hasn't[/b] been removed.  The top-deck requirement is a cool, underused thing to include.  The good thing about it is that it gives the player a more interesting decision than discarding, and it could be either a benefit or a drawback for the card depending on your hand and how you use it.

Oh, maybe this is also partially the Adventurer replacement -- $6 cost, thing goes into your hand.

Considering Donald once said he "wanted a $6" in Base, i believe this is in fact partially an Adventurer replacement. First i felt having to put a card on top of your deck was a bit tacked on, but it made sense when i realized this basically gives you the freedom to just gain a $5 and put it on top of your deck. Interestingly, this also reduced terminal collision risk, as you can topdeck another terminal worst case.

Edit: Spelling mistakes. I hate those.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2016, 09:04:12 am by Asper »
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #311 on: September 26, 2016, 09:16:43 am »
+1

Quote
[/u]Artisan Action
Gain a card to your hand costing up to $5.
Put a card from you hand on to your deck.

Feast replacement?  No self-trashing though, so this reminds me more of Workshop which hasn't[/b] been removed.  The top-deck requirement is a cool, underused thing to include.  The good thing about it is that it gives the player a more interesting decision than discarding, and it could be either a benefit or a drawback for the card depending on your hand and how you use it.

Oh, maybe this is also partially the Adventurer replacement -- $6 cost, thing goes into your hand.

Considering Donald once said he "wanted a $6" in Base, i believe this is in fact partially an Adventurer replacement. First i felt having to put a card on top of your deck was a bit tacked on, but it made sense when i realized this basically gives you the freedom to just gain a $5 and put it on top of your deck. Interestingly, this also reduced terminal collision risk, as you can topdeck another terminal worst case.

Edit: Spelling mistakes. I hate those.

This is a cool card. It feels a lot like Altar, which I always liked.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #312 on: September 26, 2016, 09:22:28 am »
0

Re: a concern I keep seeing about Diplomat's reaction:

While Secret Chamber was "decent" against Thief-like Attacks, Diplomat is going to be better against Minion, etc.  And if your hand has been increased by Council Room, then Diplomat gives you further reach in your deck than Secret Chamber.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #313 on: September 26, 2016, 09:23:30 am »
+11

Just want to put in a (trans, nonbinary) voice in that I really appreciate they pronouns as default. Definitely will be purchasing a new full box for (nearly) this reason alone
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #314 on: September 26, 2016, 09:56:49 am »
+2

Just want to put in a (trans, nonbinary) voice in that I really appreciate they pronouns as default. Definitely will be purchasing a new full box for (nearly) this reason alone

same tbh, I'm also spending $80 instead of $30 in part for this seemingly minor feature. I also get to give away my old cards to other friends, who care less about this sort of thing and can just buy the upgrade packs. I really couldn't care less about keeping Coppersmith etc around.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #315 on: September 26, 2016, 10:31:22 am »
+3

Just want to put in a (trans, nonbinary) voice in that I really appreciate they pronouns as default. Definitely will be purchasing a new full box for (nearly) this reason alone

While I'm cismale, I still very much appreciate the 'they' default.

And one of my housemates (and most frequent Dominion co-player) is non-binary trans as well, and literally high-fived me when I told them the news.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #316 on: September 26, 2016, 10:32:06 am »
0

So except for Transmogrify, Artisan is the first card that allows you to gain directly to hand, right? That means that with a cost-reducer in play, and either Champion or Lost Arts, you can instantly drain the Artisan pile. And the Band of Misfits pile, if you have your -$2 token on Artisan.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #317 on: September 26, 2016, 10:35:51 am »
0

So except for Transmogrify, Artisan is the first card that allows you to gain directly to hand, right? That means that with a cost-reducer in play, and either Champion or Lost Arts, you can instantly drain the Artisan pile. And the Band of Misfits pile, if you have your -$2 token on Artisan.

As far as non-type-restricted gainers, the closest thing I think we had was Artificer, which needs a lot more cost reduction (and 2 copies of it initially) to self-pile. But remember that Artisan makes you topdeck a card from hand, so you may run out of handsize before you run out the Artisans.

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #318 on: September 26, 2016, 10:36:30 am »
0

So except for Transmogrify, Artisan is the first card that allows you to gain directly to hand, right? That means that with a cost-reducer in play, and either Champion or Lost Arts, you can instantly drain the Artisan pile. And the Band of Misfits pile, if you have your -$2 token on Artisan.

Beggar, Mine and Explorer gain to your hand, but they can only gain Treasures.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #319 on: September 26, 2016, 10:38:17 am »
0

So except for Transmogrify, Artisan is the first card that allows you to gain directly to hand, right? That means that with a cost-reducer in play, and either Champion or Lost Arts, you can instantly drain the Artisan pile. And the Band of Misfits pile, if you have your -$2 token on Artisan.

As far as non-type-restricted gainers, the closest thing I think we had was Artificer, which needs a lot more cost reduction (and 2 copies of it initially) to self-pile. But remember that Artisan makes you topdeck a card from hand, so you may run out of handsize before you run out the Artisans.

I suddenly realize *why* it's so important that it topdecks, although...

Champion + 1 bridge/highway/bridgetroll + good draw (even warrior might do) => insta pile out with artisan. So it's going to happen for sure.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #320 on: September 26, 2016, 11:37:00 am »
0

How did this end up in my unread posts for the first time only today?! This is a bigger problem the forum being down!

On topic: This is great news! I will definitely be buying the update packs. I have for the last several years been using a modified set of 25-30 cards as a replacement for Dominion, first edition, when I teach beginners the game or play with friends who only play infrequently. So, I am very excited to try this update out with them!
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #321 on: September 26, 2016, 01:11:01 pm »
0

What happens when I play a Merchant but have previously played a Silver this turn (Storyteller, Villa, Black Market)?  US the bonus retroactive?  Triggered by the next Silver play?  Lost?
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #322 on: September 26, 2016, 01:15:02 pm »
+2

What happens when I play a Merchant but have previously played a Silver this turn (Storyteller, Villa, Black Market)?  US the bonus retroactive?  Triggered by the next Silver play?  Lost?

This is also why Merchant says "first" rather than "next."

...So does this mean if you play Merchant ''after'' the "first Silver you play this turn" (via Storyteller or whatever), you don't get the bonus for the next Silver you play?
Yes. When you played your first Silver, you didn't have the Merchant around.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #323 on: September 26, 2016, 02:28:18 pm »
0

I can download the Intrigue rules, but not the Base rules, and the update rulebooks aren't up yet.

EDIT: The Base rules are working for me now.

But the cards deleted from Intrigue are:

Scout
Saboteur
Secret Chamber
Great Hall
Coppersmith
Tribute

And from Base are:
Chancellor
Woodcutter
Feast
Spy
Thief
Adventurer

Without Woodcutter it is much harder to win with Gardens in a Base set only game. Sure, there are Bureaucrat and Workshop, but I still miss my Woodcutter.

I hope that the old cards will be available as a fan package.

I guess, Lookout will be dropped from Seaside 2nd edition, because Sentry is now in the Base set.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2016, 02:36:01 pm by King Leon »
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #324 on: September 26, 2016, 02:31:53 pm »
0

I can download the Intrigue rules, but not the Base rules, and the update rulebooks aren't up yet.

EDIT: The Base rules are working for me now.

But the cards deleted from Intrigue are:

Scout
Saboteur
Secret Chamber
Great Hall
Coppersmith
Tribute

And from Base are:
Chancellor
Woodcutter
Feast
Spy
Thief
Adventurer

Without Woodcutter it is much harder to win with Gardens in a Base set only game. Sure, there are Bureaucrat and Workshop, but I still miss my Woodcutter.

I hope that the old cards will be available as a fan package.

Woodcutter is not a good Gardens enabler.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #325 on: September 26, 2016, 02:52:28 pm »
0

A Border Village or Death Cart gained by Replace will not go on top of your deck, because it's lost track of.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #326 on: September 26, 2016, 02:59:53 pm »
0

the fun thing about mill is that i already say "mill" pretty often when i discard cards. and when i play mill i'm probably gonna say "...and then vault two estates"
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #327 on: September 26, 2016, 03:07:05 pm »
0

Also notice that there is a nice progression:

Estate → Mill → Harem/Nobles → Province.

Replace your stuff, handing out curses along the way. It's like the silly Estate → Remodel → Gold → Province thing, except actually useful.

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #328 on: September 26, 2016, 03:17:53 pm »
0

Has anyone else noticed that there is both the palace(or a castle not sure witch) and the bridge are in the base cover art.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #329 on: September 26, 2016, 03:21:57 pm »
+8

Has anyone else noticed that there is both the palace(or a castle not sure witch) and the bridge are in the base cover art.
I'm not seeing the Witch.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #330 on: September 26, 2016, 03:30:01 pm »
+2

I was never that interested in getting intrigue, but this second edition is starting to make me reconsider. These cards look fantastic.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #331 on: September 26, 2016, 04:00:15 pm »
+1

What's sort of interesting is that these 12 cards (and a few others) were already removed from my irl collection. I just set them aside in a separate box because I felt these were boring cards to show to new players.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #332 on: September 26, 2016, 04:29:31 pm »
0

Will the update packs come with new card strips? (The thing in the middle of the box which had the names in alphabetical order.)

Also, when/where can we get these? everything I looked at just had a vague release date.

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #333 on: September 26, 2016, 04:37:07 pm »
0

Will the update packs come with new card strips? (The thing in the middle of the box which had the names in alphabetical order.)

Also, when/where can we get these? everything I looked at just had a vague release date.

Supposedly American copies are being shipped to distributots today. My guess is we will see them in stores/online towards the end of the week/early next week
« Last Edit: September 26, 2016, 04:50:54 pm by Beyond Awesome »
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #334 on: September 26, 2016, 04:37:12 pm »
0

Will the update packs come with new card strips? (The thing in the middle of the box which had the names in alphabetical order.)

Also, when/where can we get these? everything I looked at just had a vague release date.

Yes, and my FLGS said probably the end of this week.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #335 on: September 26, 2016, 05:00:57 pm »
+2

I guess, Lookout will be dropped from Seaside 2nd edition, because Sentry is now in the Base set.
There are no plans to drop cards from other sets. Seaside will get updated wordings and layout, but not dropped/added cards.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #336 on: September 26, 2016, 05:02:18 pm »
+2

Will the update packs come with new card strips? (The thing in the middle of the box which had the names in alphabetical order.)
Yes, we call that an "inlay" and the update packs include one (folded).

Also, when/where can we get these? everything I looked at just had a vague release date.
Jay anticipated shipping today (from RGG to distributors); I don't know how long it takes everyone after that though.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #337 on: September 26, 2016, 05:07:42 pm »
+13

Prediction: Lurker will be a perfect avatar for some, but we'll almost never see it.


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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #338 on: September 26, 2016, 05:12:03 pm »
0

But there are tons of awful cards in Seaside! There's Pearl Diver, Embargo, Explorer, Island, Pirate Ship, Haven, Lookout, Smugglers, and Navigator!
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #339 on: September 26, 2016, 05:29:47 pm »
+1

But there are tons of awful cards in Seaside! There's Pearl Diver, Embargo, Explorer, Island, Pirate Ship, Haven, Lookout, Smugglers, and Navigator!

Pearl Diver is fine, why do people complain about Pearl Diver
Embargo is quite useful!
Explorer: see Pearl Diver
Island: see Explorer
Pirate Ship will always have a special place in my heart, and can be quite decent sometimes
I hate Haven, but other people like it, so
Lookout: see Island
Smugglers is a good card, shut your mouth
yeah, Navigator is pretty crappy
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #340 on: September 26, 2016, 05:42:48 pm »
+13

But there are tons of awful cards in Seaside! There's Pearl Diver, Embargo, Explorer, Island, Pirate Ship, Haven, Lookout, Smugglers, and Navigator!
Pearl Diver, Navigator: These cards would be ones I'd replace, except, I couldn't, just as I couldn't rename Harem; they depict real people. Why not offer those real people new better art on their new card, you ask? That sounds good to me, and I thought it would get Harem renamed, but it didn't.

Embargo: I like Embargo fine but would make a new similar card in order to not require special tokens. But wait, Jay has a pile of those tokens in a warehouse somewhere. This was not actually doing anything for him for years.

Explorer: They can't all be the best $5 ever.

Island, Haven, Smugglers: Haven is fine. Island is sweet. Smugglers is my favorite card in the set.

Pirate Ship: I'm with you on this one.

Lookout: I might not do this card today, because casual players mostly don't like it. Experienced players know it's fine, sometimes you get Lookout, and it probably doesn't trash one of your Provinces. Anyway it's borderline.

Another thing someone can cite from the time machine post is that I don't like that there are two junkers costing less than $5. It slows down heavy Seaside games. People don't like that Sea Hag is a pure attack so it would be the one to replace. Probably with an interactive non-attack, since people also like attacks in general less than anticipated.

But this ship has sailed (get it). I looked at the other sets a year ago, did any sets want new cards other than Dominion and Intrigue. Seaside came the closest, Prosperity was a very distant 4th. Well there's Alchemy, but the basic way to change Alchemy is to not do it. It does have fans so it's not like we have to take it out of print, but revising it would be a very poor use of time, given that solving the speed issue would never solve the "it has Potions" issue. Hinterlands has enough cards I want changed, but they all want to be the same card only changed, which isn't on the table; we can't offer an update pack with "Fool's Gold now has no reaction" and such.

Anyway I looked at Seaside. The biggest positive things would be to get rid of Embargo tokens and use the coin tokens on say 3 cards. Seaside was made without tokens so I was not trying to make sure they were put to good use (when Prosperity was delayed due to Alchemy, I had time to add two more VP token cards to it). As I said, it was going to be a while before Jay was actually interested in not needing Embargo tokens. Then, two of the biggest duds to replace, I couldn't. In the end it got a tweaked rulebook and fixed wordings/layout (including Pirate Ship being clear about Guilds), but no new cards. And nothing else has new cards on the way either.

I did think of "what about an update pack with 1-2 new cards from each of several expansions." That didn't happen though.

The revisions have been a crazy amount of work, not all of it done yet (I could be proofreading a revised rulebook as we speak); I do not imagine I will revisit this concept any time soon.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #341 on: September 26, 2016, 05:49:54 pm »
0

I don't think getting rid of a few cards in Seaside would be a bad idea. Navigator and Pearl Driver really offer little to nothing to the game. Embargo could use a replacement. Also, there is that annoying blank spot in Seaside.

But, I'm not holding my breathe for a Seaside 2nd edition any moment.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #342 on: September 26, 2016, 05:55:18 pm »
+1

But there are tons of awful cards in Seaside! There's Pearl Diver, Embargo, Explorer, Island, Pirate Ship, Haven, Lookout, Smugglers, and Navigator!
I agree with pearl diver, explorer, island, lookout, and navigator.
Embargo: I would make this an event
Pirate ship: This is the only thing that can kill coppers to perform a total economic pin(Something that i want to do)
Haven is fine just people are bad at dominion
lookout is great and underrated.
Smugglers is a good card
I would add the hag to this list because it discourages Casual players from dominion and it sucks when there is no trashing.


Overall you should focus on more expansions
« Last Edit: September 26, 2016, 05:57:24 pm by Limetime »
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Seprix

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #343 on: September 26, 2016, 05:57:37 pm »
0

But there are tons of awful cards in Seaside! There's Pearl Diver, Embargo, Explorer, Island, Pirate Ship, Haven, Lookout, Smugglers, and Navigator!

Pearl Diver is fine, why do people complain about Pearl Diver
Embargo is quite useful!
Explorer: see Pearl Diver
Island: see Explorer
Pirate Ship will always have a special place in my heart, and can be quite decent sometimes
I hate Haven, but other people like it, so
Lookout: see Island
Smugglers is a good card, shut your mouth
yeah, Navigator is pretty crappy

Pearl Diver is a horrible cantrip, although itprobably has to be done.

Embargo is almost never any good. The point of Embargo is to stop other people from buying a card. This is mainly only useful when you are behind and need to stop someone from getting a card, which you will almost certainly want to get yourself. There is also blocking Potion cards when one guy goes for something and you do not, notably Alchemist. There is also being so ahead that you block your opponent from getting a card, but if you're that ahead, you'll probably win anyways. It's like sending Curses with Ambassador, in which it's a move that rarely actually pays off.

I can argue with you about all of the other cards, but I do want to say that Embargo is completely awful. Tax does it much better. Embargo should have been an event.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #344 on: September 26, 2016, 06:03:24 pm »
+1

Seeing as how we have Tax, there really is not much need for an Embargo Event.

And, Seprix is right, Embargo is awful.

Island is pretty boring, but it's not a terrible card, though, I would not miss it. Distant Lands is just a million times better.

I like Lookout. It's a good trasher. It gets bad later on, but if you can track your deck, then it's a pretty solid trasher.

Pirate Ship is bad, but new players love it, and, well, Thief is gone. But, man, this card is awful.

Haven is sort of on the boring side, but it's not a bad card. Both Save and Gear do this concept a better job.

Explorer is sort of weak, but I think newer players like Treasure gainers. It's also an okay card for BM and slogs. I wouldn't mind it going, but there are better candidates.

Oh, and Smugglers. What's wrong with Smugglers?
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #345 on: September 26, 2016, 06:12:28 pm »
0

Why not offer those real people new better art on their new card, you ask? That sounds good to me, and I thought it would get Harem renamed, but it didn't.

Hum any chance we can get more details than that? What happened?
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #346 on: September 26, 2016, 06:14:25 pm »
0

Yeah, most of the cards I listed I would not even replace. Island is fine enough. Smugglers is super annoying and swingy but I wouldn't remove it. It is strong enough. Haven is also fine. I also understand Lookout enough for it to stay in. It's a fine card. Explorer is sad but it's a card I love anyways for all of it's faults.

Pirate Ship is pretty lame though. If I had to choose what to replace, I'd replace Pirate Ship, Pearl Diver, and Embargo.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #347 on: September 26, 2016, 06:14:53 pm »
0

While we're on topic: The news that Hinterlands, Prosperity and Seaside don't get the same treatment was the saddest thing about the 2nd editions.

I really love the new Base and Intrigue, they probably improved the game soooo much.

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #348 on: September 26, 2016, 06:18:08 pm »
0

While we're on topic: The news that Hinterlands, Prosperity and Seaside don't get the same treatment was the saddest thing about the 2nd editions.

I really love the new Base and Intrigue, they probably improved the game soooo much.



They really did. My hope is that the newer sets get some new buffs too, but it's like Errata and people will be pissed at having to constantly get new cards, so I understand the reluctance too.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #349 on: September 26, 2016, 06:19:49 pm »
0

While we're on topic: The news that Hinterlands, Prosperity and Seaside don't get the same treatment was the saddest thing about the 2nd editions.

I really love the new Base and Intrigue, they probably improved the game soooo much.

Actually, I'm most sad DA doesn't get the same treatment. Cultist needs to go or at least get a powered down version.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #350 on: September 26, 2016, 06:30:09 pm »
0

While we're on topic: The news that Hinterlands, Prosperity and Seaside don't get the same treatment was the saddest thing about the 2nd editions.

I really love the new Base and Intrigue, they probably improved the game soooo much.

Actually, I'm most sad DA doesn't get the same treatment. Cultist needs to go or at least get a powered down version.

Cultist sucks a lot, but I am fine enough with it not being modded with in any way.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #351 on: September 26, 2016, 06:34:20 pm »
+5

Why not offer those real people new better art on their new card, you ask? That sounds good to me, and I thought it would get Harem renamed, but it didn't.

Hum any chance we can get more details than that? What happened?
There is not much story. I said we could rename it. Jay said, but Valerie (who is depicted) loved getting that. I said, well she could be depicted in the new art. Jay wasn't interested.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #352 on: September 26, 2016, 06:34:53 pm »
+1

Honestly I view Swamp Hag as the fixed Embargo, rather than Tax.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #353 on: September 26, 2016, 06:35:28 pm »
0

Honestly I view Swamp Hag as the fixed Embargo, rather than Tax.

That's an interesting viewpoint. I can see it.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #354 on: September 26, 2016, 06:53:25 pm »
0

While we're on topic: The news that Hinterlands, Prosperity and Seaside don't get the same treatment was the saddest thing about the 2nd editions.

I really love the new Base and Intrigue, they probably improved the game soooo much.

Actually, I'm most sad DA doesn't get the same treatment. Cultist needs to go or at least get a powered down version.

*cough* Rebuild *cough*
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #355 on: September 26, 2016, 06:54:45 pm »
+2

But there are tons of awful cards in Seaside! There's Pearl Diver, Embargo, Explorer, Island, Pirate Ship, Haven, Lookout, Smugglers, and Navigator!

Horrible cards?!?!  Haven happens to be one of my favorite cards, pearl diver isn't great, but has a unique quirkiness to it, island is a very interesting twist on trashing, lookout is a super speedy trasher that you have to be very careful with.  Don't know what you mean.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #356 on: September 26, 2016, 07:01:15 pm »
0

But there are tons of awful cards in Seaside! There's Pearl Diver, Embargo, Explorer, Island, Pirate Ship, Haven, Lookout, Smugglers, and Navigator!

Horrible cards?!?!  Haven happens to be one of my favorite cards, pearl diver isn't great, but has a unique quirkiness to it, island is a very interesting twist on trashing, lookout is a super speedy trasher that you have to be very careful with.  Don't know what you mean.

I agree. Haven, Embargo, Lookout and Smugglers are all some of my favourite cards in the set. Being able to Embargo IGG, or Duke, or Cultist, or Familiar... Tee-hee.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #357 on: September 26, 2016, 07:20:51 pm »
+1

*cough* Rebuild *cough*

Considering that Courtyard BM wins about half the games against pure Rebuild, Courtyard probably should have been removed from Intrigue as well as it just dominates games way too much.

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #358 on: September 26, 2016, 07:49:58 pm »
0

While we're on topic: The news that Hinterlands, Prosperity and Seaside don't get the same treatment was the saddest thing about the 2nd editions.

I really love the new Base and Intrigue, they probably improved the game soooo much.

Actually, I'm most sad DA doesn't get the same treatment. Cultist needs to go or at least get a powered down version.

*cough* Rebuild *cough*

Honestly, there's still a lot of stuff to think about with Rebuild.  There's strategy in the Duchy dancing.  How many Rebuilds do you get, when do you start buying Duchies instead, what other cards can/should you add to the mix.  And it's always satisfying when you get a strategy that can beat Rebuild.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #359 on: September 26, 2016, 08:16:22 pm »
+2

How can you not love Embargo?  It's like Messenger's on-buy ability, in that it affects everyone equally, and the only benefit is in exploiting differences between the players' strategies.  Exploiting asymmetry is not strong, but it's satisfying, like executing a successful Rats strategy, or getting those Treasure Maps to collide.  (Note: Treasure Map is ranked after Pirate Ship, but still no one has suggested its removal.)

Embargo is also a very high skill card.  No longer is the game just about finding the best strategy, it's about knowing the second best strategy, etc., and knowing how to pivot between them.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #360 on: September 26, 2016, 09:13:18 pm »
+2

While we're on topic: The news that Hinterlands, Prosperity and Seaside don't get the same treatment was the saddest thing about the 2nd editions.

I really love the new Base and Intrigue, they probably improved the game soooo much.

Actually, I'm most sad DA doesn't get the same treatment. Cultist needs to go or at least get a powered down version.

*cough* Rebuild *cough*

Honestly, there's still a lot of stuff to think about with Rebuild.  There's strategy in the Duchy dancing.  How many Rebuilds do you get, when do you start buying Duchies instead, what other cards can/should you add to the mix.  And it's always satisfying when you get a strategy that can beat Rebuild.
Honestly rebuild strategic choices arn't even that hard to make.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #361 on: September 27, 2016, 01:21:04 am »
+14

While we're on topic: The news that Hinterlands, Prosperity and Seaside don't get the same treatment was the saddest thing about the 2nd editions.

I really love the new Base and Intrigue, they probably improved the game soooo much.

Actually, I'm most sad DA doesn't get the same treatment. Cultist needs to go or at least get a powered down version.

*cough* Rebuild *cough*

Honestly, there's still a lot of stuff to think about with Rebuild.  There's strategy in the Duchy dancing.  How many Rebuilds do you get, when do you start buying Duchies instead, what other cards can/should you add to the mix.  And it's always satisfying when you get a strategy that can beat Rebuild.

Rebuild games are like sorting socks. On a normal day, you can go shopping, or have a walk, or read a book, or paint the fence, and it's your choice. On sock ordering day, you order socks, and your choices get limited to whether you order by color, material or size. You still choose something, and maybe it's an art by itself, but that doesn't change that every sock-ordering day, you're forced to order socks.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #362 on: September 27, 2016, 05:15:44 am »
0

I like Navigator
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #363 on: September 27, 2016, 05:18:21 am »
0

I preordered the second edition of Base and the update pack for Intrigue from Miniature Market. Does anyone have a good guess as to when they'll get them in stock and shipped out?
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #364 on: September 27, 2016, 05:59:58 am »
0

I like Navigator, even more than Cartographer. This is not an engine card, though. You will want this in Big Money decks. For a slog you can look if your next hand will be good enough to buy a duchy or Gardens.

Navigator really shines with the two Prosperity Treasures Loan and Venture: You can stack all green before the treasure, and with Loan make sure it hits that Copper instead of Platinum.

I think terminal Silvers do have a place in the game, and of the non-attacks Navigator is a very good one.

It also helps you shuffle new cards in faster.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #365 on: September 27, 2016, 09:31:45 am »
0

I preordered the second edition of Base and the update pack for Intrigue from Miniature Market. Does anyone have a good guess as to when they'll get them in stock and shipped out?

Miniature Market is slow as molasses. I am going to wait for Amazon to ship them. Let me know if you get the sets sooner than I! When I ordered Adventures and Empires, the set came later for me than if I waited a bit for Amazon. In addition, when I ordered Empires from Miniature Market, I ended up canceling the order because it took so long. I then ordered from Amazon, and I still got the set sooner than the guy who stayed with MM. Warning you in advance.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #366 on: September 27, 2016, 11:00:49 am »
0

I wish this were easier to find...

*This is an edit of Nolan and Mameluke's posts to make the cards more readable:

Base Cards:

Removed -- Adventurer, Chancellor, Feast, Spy, Thief, Woodcutter

New Cards
Artisan Action
Gain a card to your hand costing up to $5.
Put a card from you hand on to your deck.

Bandit Action
Gain a Gold.
Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of their deck, trashes a revealed treasure other than Copper, and discards the rest.

Sentry Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
Look at the top 2 cards of your deck.
Trash and/or discard any number of them.
Put the rest back in any order.

Poacher Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
+
Discard a card per empty supply pile.

Harbinger Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
Look through your discard pile. 
You may put a card from it onto your deck.

Merchant Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
The first time you play a Silver this turn +.

Vassal Action
+
Discard the top card of your deck. If it is an Action card, you may play it.

Intrigue
Removed cards
Secret Chamber, Great Hall, Coppersmith, Scout, Saboteur, Tribute

New Cards

Courtier Action
Reveal a card from your hand.
For each type it has (Action, Attack, etc.), choose one: +1 Action, or +1 Buy, or +, or gain a Gold.'
The choices must be different.

Patrol Action
+3 Cards.
Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Put the Victory cards and Curse cards into your hand. Put the rest back in any order.

Replace Action/Attack
Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing up to more than the trashed card. If the gained card is an Action or Treasure, put it onto your deck. If it's a Victory card, each other player gains a Curse.

Diplomat Action/Reaction
+2 Cards.
If you have 5 or fewer cards in hand (after drawing), +2 Actions
-----------------
When another player plays an Attack card, you may first reveal this from a hand of 5 or more cards, to draw 2 cards then discard 3.

Mill Action/Victory
Worth 1
+1 Card
+1 Action.
You may discard 2 cards for


Secret Passage
Action
+2 Cards
+1 Action
Take a card from your hand and put it anywhere in your deck.

Lurker Action
+1 Action.
 Choose one: Trash an Action card from the Supply, or gain an Action card from the trash.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #367 on: September 27, 2016, 11:06:58 am »
+5

I wish this were easier to find...

Stuff one can find on the wiki

This is all up on the wiki
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #368 on: September 27, 2016, 11:11:05 am »
+1

Diplomat synergizes well with discard-for-benefit like Secret Chamb... well, damn.

Truthfully, what it really wants is a Warehouse or a Minion or even a non-drawing +1 action card like Scou... well, damn.

Ok, how about a Candlestick Maker or a Mystic or a...Rebuild. Uh oh.

I suspect Diplomat chains are going to be really interesting, because they could make a disappearing money engine work with a bunch of terminal money actions, as long as you can kick off the first Dipolmat.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #369 on: September 27, 2016, 11:16:53 am »
0

My concern is with all the pre-made sets of 10 from later boxes that include Dominion/Intrigue. Will new copies of later boxes (and, if so, from what date) have pre-sets that work with the 2nd editions of the first two boxes? Will they include both? As someone who is gradually working through all the boxes (I currently have Dominion, Intrigue, Seaside, Prosperity, Cornucopia, and Guilds), I'm worried half my boxes will have suggested sets that work with the 1st editions of Dominion/Intrigue and half with the 2nd editions. That would frustrate me greatly.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #370 on: September 27, 2016, 11:24:57 am »
+1

The revisions have been a crazy amount of work, not all of it done yet (I could be proofreading a revised rulebook as we speak); I do not imagine I will revisit this concept any time soon.

My kingdom for an official, comprehensive rulebook!  Well, maybe a Duchy and a couple Estates anyway.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #371 on: September 27, 2016, 11:32:18 am »
+5

I wish this were easier to find...

Stuff one can find on the wiki

This is all up on the wiki

It doesn't appear to be all listed in one place though. I was only able to find it under the main Dominion and Intrigue pages (and mixed in with all the other cards that weren't changed). It'd be nice to have a standalone "1st vs 2nd editions comparison" page.

These 2 images are really helpful:
https://cf.geekdo-images.com/images/pic3190535.jpg
https://cf.geekdo-images.com/images/pic3190536.jpg



« Last Edit: September 27, 2016, 11:33:56 am by allanfieldhouse »
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #372 on: September 27, 2016, 11:44:31 am »
0

So what exactly is the lady on the horse with the bow and arrow supposed to be Harbinging?
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #373 on: September 27, 2016, 11:45:53 am »
0

So what exactly is the lady on the horse with the bow and arrow supposed to be Harbinging?

Probably upvotes for some future joke.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #374 on: September 27, 2016, 12:15:45 pm »
+1

So what exactly is the lady on the horse with the bow and arrow supposed to be Harbinging?
I THINK that's an army in the background.  She's harbinging the approach of the army, and presumably the imminent destruction of Steve's little town.  Poor Steve.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #375 on: September 27, 2016, 12:37:01 pm »
0

Why does Mill not use the "if you do" wording?
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #376 on: September 27, 2016, 12:45:17 pm »
+3

Why does Mill not use the "if you do" wording?

The "You may X for Y" wording is the new simplified version across multiple cards.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #377 on: September 27, 2016, 01:45:05 pm »
+1

Rebuild games are like sorting socks. On a normal day, you can go shopping, or have a walk, or read a book, or paint the fence, and it's your choice. On sock ordering day, you order socks, and your choices get limited to whether you order by color, material or size. You still choose something, and maybe it's an art by itself, but that doesn't change that every sock-ordering day, you're forced to order socks.
Who orders socks anyway? It's such a pointless exercise. They all fit both feet!
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #378 on: September 27, 2016, 01:54:11 pm »
+1

Rebuild games are like sorting socks. On a normal day, you can go shopping, or have a walk, or read a book, or paint the fence, and it's your choice. On sock ordering day, you order socks, and your choices get limited to whether you order by color, material or size. You still choose something, and maybe it's an art by itself, but that doesn't change that every sock-ordering day, you're forced to order socks.
Who orders socks anyway? It's such a pointless exercise. They all fit both feet!

I buy all of my socks the same.  That way they don't have to be sorted.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #379 on: September 27, 2016, 05:00:56 pm »
+1

My concern is with all the pre-made sets of 10 from later boxes that include Dominion/Intrigue. Will new copies of later boxes (and, if so, from what date) have pre-sets that work with the 2nd editions of the first two boxes? Will they include both? As someone who is gradually working through all the boxes (I currently have Dominion, Intrigue, Seaside, Prosperity, Cornucopia, and Guilds), I'm worried half my boxes will have suggested sets that work with the 1st editions of Dominion/Intrigue and half with the 2nd editions. That would frustrate me greatly.
I do not have any dates. New rulebooks will include recommended sets with the new editions and not with the old editions.

If you want the recommended sets with old cards I imagine the wiki will continue to have them. If you're worried about it you could go to the RGG site now and save the rulebook .pdfs for all the expansions.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #380 on: September 27, 2016, 05:04:25 pm »
+1

Why does Mill not use the "if you do" wording?
It's part of a general drive to simplify wordings. In the case of Mill, since you need two cards and might just have one, possibly it should still say "if you do," as Trading Post does. However it is much rarer to have a reason to want to discard your only remaining card (just drawn) to Mill despite not getting the $, than it is to want to play Trading Post with only one other card in hand.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #381 on: September 27, 2016, 05:05:05 pm »
+3

So what exactly is the lady on the horse with the bow and arrow supposed to be Harbinging?
I THINK that's an army in the background.  She's harbinging the approach of the army, and presumably the imminent destruction of Steve's little town.  Poor Steve.
It will one day be clearer as an army in the background.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #382 on: September 27, 2016, 05:16:19 pm »
0

So what exactly is the lady on the horse with the bow and arrow supposed to be Harbinging?
I THINK that's an army in the background.  She's harbinging the approach of the army, and presumably the imminent destruction of Steve's little town.  Poor Steve.
It will one day be clearer as an army in the background.
Why do the (online) rulebooks have terrible resolution?
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #383 on: September 27, 2016, 05:48:47 pm »
0

My concern is with all the pre-made sets of 10 from later boxes that include Dominion/Intrigue. Will new copies of later boxes (and, if so, from what date) have pre-sets that work with the 2nd editions of the first two boxes? Will they include both? As someone who is gradually working through all the boxes (I currently have Dominion, Intrigue, Seaside, Prosperity, Cornucopia, and Guilds), I'm worried half my boxes will have suggested sets that work with the 1st editions of Dominion/Intrigue and half with the 2nd editions. That would frustrate me greatly.
I do not have any dates. New rulebooks will include recommended sets with the new editions and not with the old editions.

If you want the recommended sets with old cards I imagine the wiki will continue to have them. If you're worried about it you could go to the RGG site now and save the rulebook .pdfs for all the expansions.

Thanks :) The wiki has already switched to new sets of ten (though I'm not sure where they got their information from as to what they are) for all the boxes, though I suppose dominiondeck.com will keep the old ones as well. I hit upon the idea of saving the pdf rule books earlier today so will have copies in case I do get a box that then refers to cards I don't yet have. I noticed Empires reccomemded sets don't use any of the now removed cards, which I guess was deliberate.

I think I'm going to stick with my plan of getting Hinterlands next, then update to 2nd editions, then crack open guilds (I have it as I got it in a set with Cornucopia but am keeping it on lockdown) and get Dark Ages and Alchemy.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #384 on: September 27, 2016, 06:09:38 pm »
+7

But there are tons of awful cards in Seaside! There's Pearl Diver, Embargo, Explorer, Island, Pirate Ship, Haven, Lookout, Smugglers, and Navigator!
On this forum there is a general tendency to dislike weak cards and I really don't understand why. Except the unbalanced ones like Scout, weak cards are fine and add sometimes a lot more subtlety than strong cards. And using them just a little could sometimes be the key to win the game. They are never going to be the most important engine pieces, but they still have an influence on how the game plays. And we need them, otherwise the game would always be too heavy. I would prefer so much a board with Witch + Navigator + Pearl Diver than, say, Witch + Goons + Tournament.

Really, except pirate ship which is unbalanced, they are all fine.

I think updating the few broken-strong cards is more a priority
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #385 on: September 27, 2016, 06:15:03 pm »
+1

Why do the (online) rulebooks have terrible resolution?
To have the file be a conveniently small size for a variety of users. The file at full resolution is much larger.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #386 on: September 27, 2016, 06:26:06 pm »
+1

Why do the (online) rulebooks have terrible resolution?
To have the file be a conveniently small size for a variety of users. The file at full resolution is much larger.
Is it possible a folder could be available for download? (Makes it easier on wero)
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Donald X.

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #387 on: September 27, 2016, 06:31:52 pm »
+1

Why do the (online) rulebooks have terrible resolution?
To have the file be a conveniently small size for a variety of users. The file at full resolution is much larger.
Is it possible a folder could be available for download? (Makes it easier on wero)
Feel free to make your case to RGG; I am satisfied with the quality of rulebooks they provide.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #388 on: September 28, 2016, 08:25:51 am »
+4

Feast always tried to become something better,
everytime it died it hoped it would be the last time,
it now found its peace in becoming an Artisan,
good things still happen

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #389 on: September 28, 2016, 08:41:44 am »
+12

A few observations on Lurker (some of these have already been mentioned):

It does seem to be a slow card indeed, requiring a pair (or TR/KC) most times to gain actions (so not to risk opponents sniping actions you've trashed with their own Lurkers) but I can definitely see a variety of opportunities for it to be pretty strong and versatile in certain kingdoms. 

It can gain potion cards without potions (e.g. Familiar, Possession), debt cards without taking debt (e.g. City Quarter), expensive cards like KC or Prince without the $, Grand Market with coppers in play, etc.

There are of course lots of cards with fun on-trash benefits from Dark Ages: trash a Cultist for a double Lab, trash a Squire for an Attack card, trash a Rats for a cantrip, trash a Hunting Grounds for a Duchy, etc.

Lurker can be a straight-up Fortress gainer--with Fortress in the supply, a Lurker in your hand can become a Fortress in your hand! 

It's strong with TfB: keep your Apprentice engine going by continuously regaining trashed actions for fodder, pick up actions your opponent fed to Salvager to feed to your own Salvager, etc. 

And as others have mentioned, it's great for pile control--it doesn't take too many throned Lurkers to drain that third pile for a surprise ending. 

Lurker will be situational for sure, but it still looks like a lot of fun!
« Last Edit: September 28, 2016, 09:30:44 am by 4est »
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #390 on: September 28, 2016, 08:49:54 am »
0

Lurker will probably be one of the most interactive cards in Dominion. Knowing where your opponent's lurkers are and knowing what cards they don't want will help a lot the odd lurker. Add three pile potential and tfb tricks, and you have a card that looks really fun. Sort of like Messenger, but Messenger is held back a good deal by that first buy clause.
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soudek01

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #391 on: September 28, 2016, 10:59:34 pm »
0

Will the update pack for Dominion come with the trash mat?
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #392 on: September 28, 2016, 11:43:03 pm »
+1

Will the update pack for Dominion come with the trash mat?

Nope.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #393 on: September 28, 2016, 11:44:12 pm »
0

Someone should update the wikipedia article.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #394 on: September 28, 2016, 11:54:51 pm »
+8

Someone should update the wikipedia article.

That someone could be you.  Today is the first day of the rest of your life.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #395 on: September 29, 2016, 12:25:26 am »
0

Will the update pack for Dominion come with the trash mat?

Nope.

Presumably future copies of the Base Cards will come with it?
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GendoIkari

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #396 on: September 29, 2016, 12:30:11 am »
+1

A few observations on Lurker (some of these have already been mentioned):

It can gain ... Grand Market with coppers in play, etc.

Only with Black Market, Storyteller, or Villa.  ;)
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Donald X.

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #397 on: September 29, 2016, 02:24:02 am »
+5

Will the update pack for Dominion come with the trash mat?

Nope.

Presumably future copies of the Base Cards will come with it?
I don't presume that and don't know.

The Trash mat, it's not some awesome thing to desperately try to acquire. It's better than the Trash card, but the Trash section of the table has always worked for me. You can also take e.g. a Tavern mat and turn it over.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #398 on: September 29, 2016, 03:46:08 am »
+2

Will the update pack for Dominion come with the trash mat?

Nope.

Presumably future copies of the Base Cards will come with it?
I don't presume that and don't know.

The Trash mat, it's not some awesome thing to desperately try to acquire. It's better than the Trash card, but the Trash section of the table has always worked for me. You can also take e.g. a Tavern mat and turn it over.

I have never actually used any Trash card or mat. We always put the trashed cards on a pile on the table sideways, so we don't get confused with the supply piles.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #399 on: September 29, 2016, 02:30:50 pm »
+1

Someone should update the wikipedia article.

That someone could be you.  Today is the first day of the rest of your life.
I am lazy.
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soudek01

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #400 on: September 29, 2016, 02:32:42 pm »
0

Will the update pack for Dominion come with the trash mat?

Nope.

Presumably future copies of the Base Cards will come with it?
I don't presume that and don't know.

The Trash mat, it's not some awesome thing to desperately try to acquire. It's better than the Trash card, but the Trash section of the table has always worked for me. You can also take e.g. a Tavern mat and turn it over.


Donald, of course, you're completely right. But that doesn't change me wanting the trash mat. I guess I'll just have to destroy my copy of Dominion (V1) to be able to justify to my wife why I need to buy another copy of the same game. "Gotta get that trash mat" won't work.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #401 on: September 29, 2016, 02:36:56 pm »
0

Saying that Woodcutter and Great Hall had to go because they were boring, is the same as saying that Village and Smithy should go too, to be replaced by more snazzy alternatives.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2016, 02:54:55 pm by Jeebus »
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #402 on: September 29, 2016, 02:38:17 pm »
+1

Saying that Woodcutter and Great Hall had to go because they were boring, is the same as saying that Village and Smithy should go too, to be replaced be more snazzy alternatives.

"Boring and not good" is not the same thing as "boring".
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #403 on: September 29, 2016, 02:52:00 pm »
+3

Amazon now has pre-orders for the 2nd edition update packs and 2nd edition of Intrigue. They don't have Dominion 2nd Edition listed yet.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #404 on: September 29, 2016, 02:54:46 pm »
0

Saying that Woodcutter and Great Hall had to go because they were boring, is the same as saying that Village and Smithy should go too, to be replaced by more snazzy alternatives.

"Boring and not good" is not the same thing as "boring".

1) True, and I just said "boring", since some poeple have said that.
2) But in any case, Great Hall is good.
3) Saying that Woodcutter had to go because it was boring and not good, is the same as saying that Workshop should go too, to be replaced by more snazzy alternatives.

Witherweaver

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #405 on: September 29, 2016, 02:57:16 pm »
+3

Proposed new cards:

Jazz Village
Jazz Hall
Jazzshop
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #406 on: September 29, 2016, 03:00:30 pm »
0

Will the update pack for Dominion come with the trash mat?

Nope.

Presumably future copies of the Base Cards will come with it?
I don't presume that and don't know.

The Trash mat, it's not some awesome thing to desperately try to acquire. It's better than the Trash card, but the Trash section of the table has always worked for me. You can also take e.g. a Tavern mat and turn it over.


Right?  Trash pile is over there, no we don't need a mat or a card, that's silly.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #407 on: September 29, 2016, 03:09:18 pm »
0

2) But in any case, Great Hall is good.
Lies...
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #408 on: September 29, 2016, 03:11:50 pm »
+1

I think people way overvalue cantrips simply because they are rarely a dead card. I'm surprised by the defense for Great Hall and even Pearl Diver. I think because the card isn't terminal, people are like, well, if I have a spare $3 I can buy a Great Hall. Just because you can buy a card with spare change doesn't make it good or worth existing. Heck, if I go to the store, I can use my spare change to buy a candy bar. That doesn't mean the candy bar is healthy for me. Okay, probably not the best analogy.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #409 on: September 29, 2016, 03:14:52 pm »
+3

Candy bars actually improve the enjoyment of your deck.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #410 on: September 29, 2016, 03:16:05 pm »
0

I got to the arcade. I put money on a card. I spend all but 26 cents. There is only one machine that takes 25 cents. I play that game. It isn't  that fun but i got it for free.
Useless cantrip summary
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allanfieldhouse

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #411 on: September 29, 2016, 03:37:28 pm »
+1

Amazon now has pre-orders for the 2nd edition update packs and 2nd edition of Intrigue. They don't have Dominion 2nd Edition listed yet.

Ouch, full MSRP. $30 for 14 (140) cards isn't the best value. Is that just because it's new/preorder? All the other sets sell for a significant discount.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #412 on: September 29, 2016, 03:40:22 pm »
0

I have been away from the forum for a while, and I come back and there is this then only 16 page thread about these new second edition thingies. I have gotten tired of reading other people's responses, and will now give my own opinion.
Base:
Removed Cards: We can all agree that no one here will miss these cards. However, my family (specifically, my brother) will miss theif (mostly because he liked to buy them all and call himself the king of theives)
New Cards:
Artisan - not much to say. It works as a replacement for feast, although I think I like feast better. I like that it takes Adventurer's place as the only card in the base set
Bandit - I kind of wish the gold gaining was conditional on an opponent revealing at least one treasure, but that's fine. I like that it is so much less swingy with Harem.
Sentry - Not much to say about this one. It's a nice replacement for spy, and goes so much faster.
Poacher - A peddler variant. Good choice for the base game. "per empty supply pile" not as much of a good choice. I like that it is used again on something other than City, but it might have been better for intrigue.
Harbinger - What Pearl Diver should have been
Merchant - Anyone else think this should have been Coppersmith's replacement in Intrigue?
Vassal - A simpler Herald. It's fine. The can't all be the best ever.
Intrigue
Removed Cards: I'm going to miss Coppersmith and Tribute. I think that Donald should have taken out Swindler instead of Sab, mostly because swindler is so much more annoying due to its being cheaper and easier to use. Sab to me is a much nicer and elegant card, and plays less of an annoyance factor due to not easily self gaining and not always attacking.
New cards:
Courtier - As a replacement for tribute, It's OK. I like that it uses all types. I think tribute was better though.
Replace - The attack is fine, being conditional, and is not too crazy overpowered. Not sure the game needs another remodel variant added to the existing sets though.
Diplomat - I find this as confusing as secret chamber was. It is kind of interesting as a reverse shanty town, but for the most part it is probably one of my least favorite cards here
Mill - A slight buff to Great Halls (The biggest cough drop ever!) and still can do what great hall did (Ironworks fodder and remodeling estates without losing points). Not making a very big change with this one, which is good. I find that great hall was one of the most balanced cards in the set, and this works as a nice replacement.
Secret Passage - I don't really have anything to say about this one.
Lurker - The supply trasher that Donald has talked about possibly doing has finally arrived! I feel like this is a card that will take a very long time to master, but will be well worth it.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #413 on: September 29, 2016, 03:47:14 pm »
0

The one issue I have with Theif's 'replacement', is you can't get non-base Treasures.  That was sort of the advantage Theif had over Noble Brigand.. you could steal any Treasure. 

Is "Gain a Treasure" too powerful for Bandit?  Also, why not just have the trashing optional?  Sometimes you may want to trash their Copper, though maybe those cases are rare enough to not make it worth it.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #414 on: September 29, 2016, 03:53:02 pm »
+2

Is "Gain a Treasure" too powerful for Bandit?

Way. "Gain a Treasure costing up to $6" seems fine though.

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #415 on: September 29, 2016, 04:13:00 pm »
+1

Ouch, full MSRP. $30 for 14 (140) cards isn't the best value. Is that just because it's new/preorder? All the other sets sell for a significant discount.

Yes, it will change. Amazon initially priced Empires at MSRP or something very close to it, and then the price dropped over time
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #416 on: September 29, 2016, 04:43:28 pm »
0

Ouch, full MSRP. $30 for 14 (140) cards isn't the best value. Is that just because it's new/preorder? All the other sets sell for a significant discount.

Yes, it will change. Amazon initially priced Empires at MSRP or something very close to it, and then the price dropped over time

Keep in mind, Prime shipping often makes up cost difference vs expedited shipping on other sites.

Also, I only see both Upgrade packs on there and Intrigue 2, no Dominon 2 yet?
« Last Edit: September 29, 2016, 04:44:49 pm by Chris is me »
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #417 on: September 29, 2016, 06:41:23 pm »
0

The one issue I have with Theif's 'replacement', is you can't get non-base Treasures.  That was sort of the advantage Theif had over Noble Brigand.. you could steal any Treasure. 

Is "Gain a Treasure" too powerful for Bandit?  Also, why not just have the trashing optional?  Sometimes you may want to trash their Copper, though maybe those cases are rare enough to not make it worth it.

Reliably gaining Gold is still an advantage for Bandit.  And yeah, probably the cases where you want to trash Copper are too rare... and also making it optional would get political.
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soudek01

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #418 on: September 29, 2016, 07:20:51 pm »
+1

Ouch, full MSRP. $30 for 14 (140) cards isn't the best value. Is that just because it's new/preorder? All the other sets sell for a significant discount.

Yes, it will change. Amazon initially priced Empires at MSRP or something very close to it, and then the price dropped over time

Keep in mind, Prime shipping often makes up cost difference vs expedited shipping on other sites.

Also, I only see both Upgrade packs on there and Intrigue 2, no Dominon 2 yet?

Go to Amazon, search "Dominion update pack" and both update packs will appear.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #419 on: September 29, 2016, 08:40:03 pm »
+2

Is "Gain a Treasure" too powerful for Bandit?

Way. "Gain a Treasure costing up to $6" seems fine though.

I imagine the reason is because it's Base and you want to keep it simple.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #420 on: September 29, 2016, 08:56:55 pm »
+7

Is "Gain a Treasure" too powerful for Bandit?

Way. "Gain a Treasure costing up to $6" seems fine though.

I imagine the reason is because it's Base and you want to keep it simple.

Even if it weren't Base, "Gain a Gold" is just much shorter and simpler than "Gain a Treasure costing up to $6". And the card has a bunch of other text on it, so that simplicity is extra important.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #421 on: September 29, 2016, 09:45:33 pm »
+2

Ouch, full MSRP. $30 for 14 (140) cards isn't the best value. Is that just because it's new/preorder? All the other sets sell for a significant discount.

Yes, it will change. Amazon initially priced Empires at MSRP or something very close to it, and then the price dropped over time

Keep in mind, Prime shipping often makes up cost difference vs expedited shipping on other sites.

Also, I only see both Upgrade packs on there and Intrigue 2, no Dominon 2 yet?

Go to Amazon, search "Dominion update pack" and both update packs will appear.

He means Amazon is missing the new base set.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #422 on: September 30, 2016, 02:26:05 am »
+3

Diplomat is probably the worst of the replacement cards in my opinion. It's a bit confusing and has two inherently complex abilities. While it might be strong enough - another problem Secret Chamber had - it's not really better than it in terms of elegance.
About the best, i don't know. All do a very good job at replacing the original cards. I guess i like Mill because it's so pretty, but i have yet to play with it. I also like Bandit and pretty much all are better than the original. I also feel none of the old card ideas was completely lost, which is an effort that i appreciate. The cool thing is that now those ideas will actually matter.

For Lurker and Merchant, i'm not convinced they fit this early in the Dominion canon. Merchant would be fine in Intrigue, but Lurker seems like it belongs in Dark Ages. Probably this doesn't matter as much anymore now that all those expansions are available. Neither Intrigue nor Base need to play the role they played originally.

Also, why are some people switching the letters "i" and "e" in Thief? Am i missing something?
« Last Edit: September 30, 2016, 02:27:16 am by Asper »
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soudek01

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #423 on: September 30, 2016, 02:32:25 am »
0

Ouch, full MSRP. $30 for 14 (140) cards isn't the best value. Is that just because it's new/preorder? All the other sets sell for a significant discount.

Yes, it will change. Amazon initially priced Empires at MSRP or something very close to it, and then the price dropped over time

Keep in mind, Prime shipping often makes up cost difference vs expedited shipping on other sites.

Also, I only see both Upgrade packs on there and Intrigue 2, no Dominon 2 yet?

Go to Amazon, search "Dominion update pack" and both update packs will appear.

He means Amazon is missing the new base set.

I just saw the new base base set on Amazon but it was "currently unavailable." All I did was search "Dominion" and then click on the "see newer version" option above the star rating for Dominion on the search results page.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #424 on: September 30, 2016, 02:47:24 am »
0

Courtier struck me as overpowered at first. It seems like it would still be a $5 if it was discard instead of reveal.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #425 on: September 30, 2016, 08:20:04 am »
0

Courtier struck me as overpowered at first. It seems like it would still be a $5 if it was discard instead of reveal.

I just realized Courtier likes Shelters.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #426 on: September 30, 2016, 09:53:34 am »
0

I wonder how skippable courtier will usually be in games with 3 type cards.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #427 on: September 30, 2016, 10:29:45 am »
0

Courtier struck me as overpowered at first. It seems like it would still be a $5 if it was discard instead of reveal.

Really? If you don't have a multi-type card, the +1 Action is completely useless, the +1 Buy is expensive, the +$3 is a terminal Gold (not great), and the gain a gold is decent but kind of expensive. You really ned multi-type cards. And Courtier can't even be a Village, ever.

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #428 on: September 30, 2016, 10:43:04 am »
0

Courtier struck me as overpowered at first. It seems like it would still be a $5 if it was discard instead of reveal.

Really? If you don't have a multi-type card, the +1 Action is completely useless, the +1 Buy is expensive, the +$3 is a terminal Gold (not great), and the gain a gold is decent but kind of expensive. You really ned multi-type cards. And Courtier can't even be a Village, ever.

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King's courting an courtier with Dame Joseophine in hand is pretty jackpotty.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2016, 10:44:32 am by AdrianHealey »
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #429 on: September 30, 2016, 10:44:25 am »
0

Diplomat is probably the worst of the replacement cards in my opinion. It's a bit confusing and has two inherently complex abilities. While it might be strong enough - another problem Secret Chamber had - it's not really better than it in terms of elegance.
About the best, i don't know. All do a very good job at replacing the original cards. I guess i like Mill because it's so pretty, but i have yet to play with it. I also like Bandit and pretty much all are better than the original. I also feel none of the old card ideas was completely lost, which is an effort that i appreciate. The cool thing is that now those ideas will actually matter.

For Lurker and Merchant, i'm not convinced they fit this early in the Dominion canon. Merchant would be fine in Intrigue, but Lurker seems like it belongs in Dark Ages. Probably this doesn't matter as much anymore now that all those expansions are available. Neither Intrigue nor Base need to play the role they played originally.

I agree with most of what you said, except that none of the old card ideas were lost. That's not the case at all. I assume you mean considering all cards across Dominion (otherwise even Adventurer is completely lost), in which case Coppersmith, Saboteur, Feast, and arguably Tribute are lost. For Coppersmith we have a little bit in Merchant maybe, and vaguely in Bank, but not really. For Feast, we have other cards that gain $5s, but none that are oneshots that cost less. For Saboteur there is nothing. For Tribute Courtier is pretty different, Ironmonger is actually closer (it can give you +2 Actions at least).

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #430 on: September 30, 2016, 11:41:10 am »
+9

Courtier's power level seems to be pretty polarizing.  Perhaps it would help to know how likely it is for a kingdom to have at least one card with 2+ or 3+ types?  I have done some counting, and this is what I came up with:

In all of Dominion (post-second editions), there are:
180 cards with only one type.
73 cards with two types (counting Catapult and Tournament).
10 cards with three or more types (counting Castles).
In kingdoms with Shelters, everybody starts with 3 two-type cards.
In kingdoms with Inheritance, there is (almost certainly) an opportunity to get two-type cards, and might be an opportunity to get three-type cards.

Given that Courtier is in the kingdom, there is an ~97% chance that a random kingdom has at least one card with at least two types.
Given that Courtier is in the kingdom, the expected number of kingdom cards with at least two types is ~2.86.
Given that Courtier is in the kingdom, there is an ~30% chance that a random kingdom has at least one card with at least three types.
Given that Courtier is in the kingdom, the expected number of kingdom cards with at least three types is ~0.34.

Of course, not all kingdoms with a two-type card are one in which it is trivial or wise to try to pair it with Courtier.  However, there are so many two-type cards - and they tend to be powerful, that it will be very likely for engines to have at least some of them.  Many two-type cards are treasures or non-drawing terminal actions, which makes them convenient to hold onto before playing Courtier.

My thoughts on Courtier:
A $5 card that provided $3 and +buy would compare favorably with Wine Merchant.
A $5 card that provided $3 and a Gold gain would compare very favorably with Explorer.
On most boards, Courtier is better than either of those cards, because it can trivially be either, or one of the other four combination of two options.  Occasionally, in the presence of cards with three or more types, it can be great (non-terminal $3 and buy is the safe combination, but sometimes the Gold gain is really valuable).  Even when it misses, it isn't horrible.  A terminal Gold or Gold-gainer is sometimes good enough, especially early in the game (when Courtier is more likely to miss).

Courtier is primarily a non-attack payload card, which tend to be unpopular, but it is one of the strongest in that category.  I think it might be around the power level of Merchant Guild, but time will tell.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2016, 11:44:32 am by aku_chi »
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #431 on: September 30, 2016, 12:21:34 pm »
+4

My thoughts on Courtier:
A $5 card that provided $3 and +buy would compare favorably with Wine Merchant.
A $5 card that provided $3 and a Gold gain would compare very favorably with Explorer.
On most boards, Courtier is better than either of those cards, because it can trivially be either, or one of the other four combination of two options.  Occasionally, in the presence of cards with three or more types, it can be great (non-terminal $3 and buy is the safe combination, but sometimes the Gold gain is really valuable).  Even when it misses, it isn't horrible.  A terminal Gold or Gold-gainer is sometimes good enough, especially early in the game (when Courtier is more likely to miss).

Courtier is primarily a non-attack payload card, which tend to be unpopular, but it is one of the strongest in that category.  I think it might be around the power level of Merchant Guild, but time will tell.
But most cards with two types are actions, and you have to play Courtier first.  So a lot of the time you'd choose +1 Action, +$3 or possibly +1 Action, gain a gold.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #432 on: September 30, 2016, 12:49:29 pm »
0

In all of Dominion (post-second editions), there are:
180 cards with only one type.
73 cards with two types (counting Catapult and Tournament).
10 cards with three or more types (counting Castles).

Which are the 10 cards? I got 9: Swamp Hag, Bridge Troll, Haunted Woods, Knights, Cultist, Marauder, Caravan Guard, Distant Lands, Castles. (Plus Followers, Soldier and Warrior, which could count as 1/5 of a card each. But you include Followers as part of Tournament, and I assume all Traveller upgrades as parts of Page/Peasant.)

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #433 on: September 30, 2016, 12:58:10 pm »
0

But most cards with two types are actions, and you have to play Courtier first.  So a lot of the time you'd choose +1 Action, +$3 or possibly +1 Action, gain a gold.

True, only 6 of all the 84 cards with multiple types are not Action cards (pluss Hovel), and none of those 6 have 3 or more types.
You could also choose +1 Action, +1 Buy of course. That's one expensive Pawn though.

The thing Courtier has going for it, is its versatility though. It can be a Gold, gain you a Gold, or give you a buy. So in that sense it seems decent, nothing more. Maybe better in big money?

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #434 on: September 30, 2016, 01:23:59 pm »
+2

In all of Dominion (post-second editions), there are:
180 cards with only one type.
73 cards with two types (counting Catapult and Tournament).
10 cards with three or more types (counting Castles).

Which are the 10 cards? I got 9: Swamp Hag, Bridge Troll, Haunted Woods, Knights, Cultist, Marauder, Caravan Guard, Distant Lands, Castles.

Enchantress.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #435 on: September 30, 2016, 01:34:17 pm »
0

Plus, the cards have to line up in the same hand -- and you might have played the other card first, drawing Courtier after. Not lining up the cards is probably better than e.g. Baron or Treasure Map but still reduces its effectiveness.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #436 on: September 30, 2016, 01:50:33 pm »
0

In all of Dominion (post-second editions), there are:
180 cards with only one type.
73 cards with two types (counting Catapult and Tournament).
10 cards with three or more types (counting Castles).

Which are the 10 cards? I got 9: Swamp Hag, Bridge Troll, Haunted Woods, Knights, Cultist, Marauder, Caravan Guard, Distant Lands, Castles.

Enchantress.

A-ha! There is a mistake in the card list on the wiki: http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Card_list
It lists Enchantress as "Action".

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #437 on: September 30, 2016, 02:06:16 pm »
+1

Inheritance combos with Courtier. Have something silly like Enchantress, Inherit it, and now all of your Estates add the extra stuff in addition to the Victory card type.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #438 on: September 30, 2016, 05:11:19 pm »
+8

RGG has set this Monday as the date distributors can send stuff out.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #439 on: October 01, 2016, 01:36:57 am »
0

RGG has set this Monday as the date distributors can send stuff out.

Okay, I was confused on that.  By "send them out this past Monday" I thought that meant they'd be at FLGSs by now.  But they have to go to a secondary distributor first?
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #440 on: October 01, 2016, 03:25:45 am »
+4

RGG has set this Monday as the date distributors can send stuff out.

Okay, I was confused on that.  By "send them out this past Monday" I thought that meant they'd be at FLGSs by now.  But they have to go to a secondary distributor first?
ELM printed them! And sent them to RGG. And sent some copies to check to me, I have had those for a few weeks now.

RGG sent them to distributors, this last week.

Monday, distributors can sell them - directly (I assume in some cases, but what do I know about distributors), or to stores (who, I am only guessing but nothing else makes sense at all, can also sell them as of Monday, and may get them Monday in some cases).

I don't actually know when RGG sent how many copies to who. My understanding was RGG was sending stuff out last Monday, but I don't know if everything went out the same day. I don't know how long it takes the products to get to the farthest away places either; I have really zero information there and no desire to learn.

The idea is to sync people up so that someone isn't mad that some other store was selling the product ahead of theirs. That sync-up date is Monday. My best guess is that the reason it's a distributor date and not a store date is because distributors are in fact sometimes stores.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #441 on: October 02, 2016, 04:41:09 pm »
0

Diplomat is probably the worst of the replacement cards in my opinion. It's a bit confusing and has two inherently complex abilities. While it might be strong enough - another problem Secret Chamber had - it's not really better than it in terms of elegance.
About the best, i don't know. All do a very good job at replacing the original cards. I guess i like Mill because it's so pretty, but i have yet to play with it. I also like Bandit and pretty much all are better than the original. I also feel none of the old card ideas was completely lost, which is an effort that i appreciate. The cool thing is that now those ideas will actually matter.

For Lurker and Merchant, i'm not convinced they fit this early in the Dominion canon. Merchant would be fine in Intrigue, but Lurker seems like it belongs in Dark Ages. Probably this doesn't matter as much anymore now that all those expansions are available. Neither Intrigue nor Base need to play the role they played originally.

I agree with most of what you said, except that none of the old card ideas were lost. That's not the case at all. I assume you mean considering all cards across Dominion (otherwise even Adventurer is completely lost), in which case Coppersmith, Saboteur, Feast, and arguably Tribute are lost. For Coppersmith we have a little bit in Merchant maybe, and vaguely in Bank, but not really. For Feast, we have other cards that gain $5s, but none that are oneshots that cost less. For Saboteur there is nothing. For Tribute Courtier is pretty different, Ironmonger is actually closer (it can give you +2 Actions at least).

I'll try to elaborate what i mean.

Coppersmith and Merchant both increase the money you get from a specific Treasure. They play very different, but i never claimed they didn't. The main concept estays.
Saboteur trashes good cards from your opponents' decks. Knights also do that, but solve Saboteur's main problems: Being weak and trashing Provinces.
Feast can easily be replaced by Death Cart imo. Just that Death Cart can stay around and hit even more than $5. Close enough for me. Also, there are now Banquet and Ball, which also offer $5s for less money. Edit: Ball costs $5 and is kind of a reverse Feast, sorry 'bout that.
Tribute plays differently than Courier, but both implement the concept of rewarding you for types. Courier just has better control. I like that Lurker was added to include the player interaction Tribute used to offer.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2016, 08:54:16 am by Asper »
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #442 on: October 02, 2016, 10:12:22 pm »
0

I'm not sure if someone has already mentioned this, but something I noticed is that the symbol/watermark for the second editions is different from the first.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #443 on: October 02, 2016, 10:53:42 pm »
+1

I'm not sure if someone has already mentioned this, but something I noticed is that the symbol/watermark for the second editions is different from the first.
That was mentioned by donald very early on in the discussion
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #444 on: October 03, 2016, 10:39:37 am »
0

Coppersmith and Merchant both increase the money you get from a specific Treasure. They play very different, but i never claimed they didn't. The main concept estays.
Saboteur trashes good cards from your opponents' decks. Knights also do that, but solve Saboteur's main problems: Being weak and trashing Provinces.
Feast can easily be replaced by Death Cart imo. Just that Death Cart can stay around and hit even more than $5. Close enough for me. Also, there are now Banquet and Ball, which also offer $5s for less money. Edit: Ball costs $5 and is kind of a reverse Feast, sorry 'bout that.
Tribute plays differently than Courier, but both implement the concept of rewarding you for types. Courier just has better control. I like that Lurker was added to include the player interaction Tribute used to offer.

I see what you mean, but to me these comparisons are too loose, because it means that these concept are already duplicated across Dominion many times over. We could remove like 80% of all cards without a "concept being lost". Of course by a certain way of looking at it, that's true, but to me that's not really relevant because I don't think most people would feel like nothing was lost if that happened.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2016, 11:12:24 am by Jeebus »
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #445 on: October 03, 2016, 03:42:49 pm »
+2

Both full versions are up on Amazon now. I bought both of them; I'm going to give the old games to friends.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #446 on: October 03, 2016, 04:19:30 pm »
0

For the 2nd editions, how many of the cards that were kept have changed art? It looks like moat got some color added to it. Are there others?

I only ordered the update packs, so I might be missing out on doing art ratings for other cards that were slightly altered. I'm just trying to get an idea of the scope of the art changes so I can decide how I want to deal with them in my art rankings.

Edit: I looked through the released instructions and didn't see any significant changes, but if anyone knows of any kept cards that got changed, please let me know.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2016, 04:23:55 pm by jamfamsam »
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #447 on: October 03, 2016, 04:28:20 pm »
0

Here's a thought: What if Vagrant and Lurker switched places? Would they match their sets more then? Vagrant can be scout-ish in cleaning up the top deck and picking up vp hybrids, and Lurker basically belongs in dark ages.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #448 on: October 03, 2016, 04:30:09 pm »
+1

For the 2nd editions, how many of the cards that were kept have changed art? It looks like moat got some color added to it. Are there others?
Moat is the only card with changed art in the 2E versions. Well not counting the base cards, which all have art now (and aren't identical to the base cards, including nudging down some of the VP card art in order to fit the VP). And not counting the trash.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #449 on: October 03, 2016, 04:31:48 pm »
0

For the 2nd editions, how many of the cards that were kept have changed art? It looks like moat got some color added to it. Are there others?
Moat is the only card with changed art in the 2E versions. Well not counting the base cards, which all have art now (and aren't identical to the base cards, including nudging down some of the VP card art in order to fit the VP). And not counting the trash.

Thanks. I won't feel like I need anything other than the update packs. Moat isn't that different, but it is nicer with the extra color.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #450 on: October 03, 2016, 05:00:25 pm »
+2

Here's a thought: What if Vagrant and Lurker switched places? Would they match their sets more then? Vagrant can be scout-ish in cleaning up the top deck and picking up vp hybrids, and Lurker basically belongs in dark ages.

Well, Vagrant then couldn't draw Ruins or Shelters, since those don't exist in Intrigue.

Also, Dark Ages has enough gain-from-trash. I think Lurker would feel less special there. It's not like there are complex rules involved in gaining cards from the trash, such that all of that wants to be in one place.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #451 on: October 03, 2016, 06:08:17 pm »
+6

The secret history is up in case someone didn't see it: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16338.0
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #452 on: October 03, 2016, 06:23:17 pm »
0

One card will be getting new art, Platinum.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #453 on: October 03, 2016, 06:39:09 pm »
0

One card will be getting new art, Platinum.
Oh man, I forgot about that when answering that Moat question.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #454 on: October 03, 2016, 06:49:37 pm »
0

Do the update packs contain randomizer cards for the new cards?
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #455 on: October 03, 2016, 07:25:43 pm »
+2

Do the update packs contain randomizer cards for the new cards?
Yes.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #456 on: October 03, 2016, 08:13:27 pm »
+6

The secret history is up in case someone didn't see it: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16338.0

The wiki has been updated.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #457 on: October 04, 2016, 07:35:40 pm »
+2

Picked up the update packs today from my local game store. The small boxes will be handy to hold my Dominion bits.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #458 on: October 05, 2016, 06:53:36 am »
0

As the 2nd editions get out and about, it's going to be harder and harder to get copies of the 12 removed cards. I know what I'd be like if I'd just found dominion right now, I'd start with the new editions, but, over time, I'd want to play with those 12 cards. Maybe they aren't that good, but I'd feel I'd want to decide that for myself.

So, I was wondering if there are any plans afoot to put out a "The lost cards" pack - just a little sort-of-expansion that gives you the 12 removed cards, for the people (like me) who like to have everything. It would be the crappiest dominion expansion ever, but hell I know I'd happily fork out a tenner for it if I had the 2nd editions. Variety is the spice of life, and some of those removed cards (woodcutter and chancellor) have featured importantly in some very fun games I've played. I know that the reason they're gone is sound - they aren't interesting very often, generally they're pretty much pointless on the board they're on - but in certain cases they can still be fun and important, so I'd want them involved in my randomisation so they could pop up every now and then.

I have very fond memories of winning a game with a treasureless engine of Library/Festival/Chancellor - I wouldn't want that oppurtunity denied to anyone :p
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #459 on: October 05, 2016, 09:28:37 am »
+5

Man, that seems hard to justify. Those cards are just bad, and selling them as a set even if you try your very best to make sure people know the cards are bad would put Donald/RGG in a tough position with people who didn't realize it.

Also, just because the cards are bad doesn't mean the cardboard is cheaper. I doubt you can get 12 cards for $10. The price (MSRP) would probably have to be closer to the $30 the 14 new cards are currently priced at.

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #460 on: October 05, 2016, 09:51:27 am »
+1

I've just realized that with the new cards, Dominion and Intrigue combined have gone from 3 topdecking effects - 2 of which weak ones (Courtyard, Bureaucrat and Secret Chamber, special mention to Scout and Spy who topdeck cards from the top of one's deck), to having 6 (Courtyard, Artisan, Harbinger, Bureaucrat, Secret Passage, and Replace), the new ones being pretty strong. Vassal might be in better company than it first looks like.

Also, I've just noticed that Secret Passage should be able to counter Trashing attacks almost better than Secret Chamber - Just bury your Estates 5 cards deep.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #461 on: October 05, 2016, 12:23:16 pm »
+4

As the 2nd editions get out and about, it's going to be harder and harder to get copies of the 12 removed cards. I know what I'd be like if I'd just found dominion right now, I'd start with the new editions, but, over time, I'd want to play with those 12 cards. Maybe they aren't that good, but I'd feel I'd want to decide that for myself.

So, I was wondering if there are any plans afoot to put out a "The lost cards" pack - just a little sort-of-expansion that gives you the 12 removed cards, for the people (like me) who like to have everything. It would be the crappiest dominion expansion ever, but hell I know I'd happily fork out a tenner for it if I had the 2nd editions. Variety is the spice of life, and some of those removed cards (woodcutter and chancellor) have featured importantly in some very fun games I've played. I know that the reason they're gone is sound - they aren't interesting very often, generally they're pretty much pointless on the board they're on - but in certain cases they can still be fun and important, so I'd want them involved in my randomisation so they could pop up every now and then.

I have very fond memories of winning a game with a treasureless engine of Library/Festival/Chancellor - I wouldn't want that oppurtunity denied to anyone :p

With 10 expansions and potentially more to come, I think for most people, it will be a long, long time before they are inclined to get the 12 "lost cards."
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #462 on: October 05, 2016, 12:43:24 pm »
0

So with no discard attack, Diplomat is a Moat, which is bad.
With a normal Militia attack, Diplomat changes into a Necropolis, after letting you cycle and nullifying the attack. (You will have 4 other cards, half totally random and half being the best 2 out of 6 cards.)

Is that right?

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #463 on: October 05, 2016, 12:49:41 pm »
+1

So with no discard attack, Diplomat is a Moat, which is bad.
With a normal Militia attack, Diplomat changes into a Necropolis, after letting you cycle and nullifying the attack. (You will have 4 other cards, half totally random and half being the best 2 out of 6 cards.)

Is that right?

I don't think it's quite the same as "turning into a Necropolis" since it turns into a Necropolis only if you treat the Militia attack as something that didn't happen. If you account for the attack it's more of a Lost City + cycling.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #464 on: October 05, 2016, 12:54:53 pm »
0

I don't think it's quite the same as "turning into a Necropolis" since it turns into a Necropolis only if you treat the Militia attack as something that didn't happen. If you account for the attack it's more of a Lost City + cycling.

Right, I did note that "turning into a Necropolis" was based on it also nullifying the attack and cycling. But I see that being a Lost City and including the attack probably makes a lot more sense. So you get the best 2 out of 6 cards, plus a Lost City.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2016, 12:57:22 pm by Jeebus »
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #465 on: October 05, 2016, 01:16:13 pm »
+3

Quote
So with no discard attack, Diplomat is a Moat, which is bad.

Diplomat is going to be great with any handsize-reducers, which includes sifters like Warehouse/Inn, or any +Action card that doesn't draw cards, including Mystic, missing Shanty Town, Haven, non-terminal hand-size reducing trashers like Forager and Raze...a long list of cards, some of which are marginal, but if they upgrade Diplomat to a level-2 City/Lost City, could be worth it.

Sure, if you're drawing deck, once your hand gets over a certain size, Diplomat stops generating actions, but if you have four of them and the first two generate actions, then it's like playing four Labs. A $4 card that can stand in for several different $5 cards in the right circumstance is worth pondering.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #466 on: October 05, 2016, 06:38:08 pm »
+6

As the 2nd editions get out and about, it's going to be harder and harder to get copies of the 12 removed cards. I know what I'd be like if I'd just found dominion right now, I'd start with the new editions, but, over time, I'd want to play with those 12 cards. Maybe they aren't that good, but I'd feel I'd want to decide that for myself.

So, I was wondering if there are any plans afoot to put out a "The lost cards" pack - just a little sort-of-expansion that gives you the 12 removed cards, for the people (like me) who like to have everything. It would be the crappiest dominion expansion ever, but hell I know I'd happily fork out a tenner for it if I had the 2nd editions. Variety is the spice of life, and some of those removed cards (woodcutter and chancellor) have featured importantly in some very fun games I've played. I know that the reason they're gone is sound - they aren't interesting very often, generally they're pretty much pointless on the board they're on - but in certain cases they can still be fun and important, so I'd want them involved in my randomisation so they could pop up every now and then.

I have very fond memories of winning a game with a treasureless engine of Library/Festival/Chancellor - I wouldn't want that oppurtunity denied to anyone :p
There are no such plans, and I hope there never are.

Here's how things look from my perspective: there are also no plans to publish all of the outtakes that weren't good enough. An endless parade of unpublished cards. I have plenty of fond memories there too.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #467 on: October 05, 2016, 08:07:25 pm »
+2

I just got the cards today. All of the art is pristine. No bad card art. The worst might be Patrol.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #468 on: October 05, 2016, 08:10:07 pm »
+3

I just got the cards today. All of the art is pristine. No bad card art. The worst might be Patrol.

It'd be funny if Patrol had the worst card art in the game.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #469 on: October 05, 2016, 08:14:04 pm »
+1

I just got the cards today. All of the art is pristine. No bad card art. The worst might be Patrol.
Patrol is better than Sentry.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #470 on: October 05, 2016, 08:25:55 pm »
0

I just got the cards today. All of the art is pristine. No bad card art. The worst might be Patrol.
Patrol is better than Sentry.

Sentry is great. It might beat Pawn even.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #471 on: October 05, 2016, 08:51:12 pm »
+3

I just got the cards today. All of the art is pristine. No bad card art. The worst might be Patrol.
Patrol is better than Sentry.

Sentry is great. It might beat Pawn even.
blasphemer
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #472 on: October 06, 2016, 03:51:53 am »
+4

Got my copies. My Intrigue had 11 Swindlers and 9 Trading Post.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #473 on: October 06, 2016, 04:02:34 am »
+36

Got my copies. My Intrigue had 11 Swindlers and 9 Trading Post.

Saboteur strikes back!
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #474 on: October 06, 2016, 09:16:06 am »
+9

Look what just came in the mail!

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #475 on: October 06, 2016, 09:32:46 am »
+3

Got my copies. My Intrigue had 11 Swindlers and 9 Trading Post.

Saboteur strikes back!

This deserves more upvotes.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #476 on: October 06, 2016, 09:52:12 am »
+4

Got my copies. My Intrigue had 11 Swindlers and 9 Trading Post.

Saboteur strikes back!

This deserves more upvotes.

It's funny because Swindler costs $2 less than Trading Post!
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #477 on: October 06, 2016, 09:55:14 am »
0

Got my copies. My Intrigue had 11 Swindlers and 9 Trading Post.

Saboteur strikes back!

This deserves more upvotes.

It's funny because Swindler costs $2 less than Trading Post!

I know!
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #478 on: October 06, 2016, 12:40:07 pm »
+15

All updated Base card images (and the trash mat) are up.  Starting on Intrigue now.

EDIT: Everything is up!
« Last Edit: October 06, 2016, 01:55:48 pm by werothegreat »
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #479 on: October 06, 2016, 01:02:04 pm »
+1

I really hate the art for sentry.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #480 on: October 06, 2016, 02:07:02 pm »
0

All updated Base card images (and the trash mat) are up.  Starting on Intrigue now.

EDIT: Everything is up!
For some reason unless if you click on the image it is still the old version.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #481 on: October 06, 2016, 02:11:27 pm »
+1

As the 2nd editions get out and about, it's going to be harder and harder to get copies of the 12 removed cards. I know what I'd be like if I'd just found dominion right now, I'd start with the new editions, but, over time, I'd want to play with those 12 cards. Maybe they aren't that good, but I'd feel I'd want to decide that for myself.

So, I was wondering if there are any plans afoot to put out a "The lost cards" pack - just a little sort-of-expansion that gives you the 12 removed cards, for the people (like me) who like to have everything. It would be the crappiest dominion expansion ever, but hell I know I'd happily fork out a tenner for it if I had the 2nd editions. Variety is the spice of life, and some of those removed cards (woodcutter and chancellor) have featured importantly in some very fun games I've played. I know that the reason they're gone is sound - they aren't interesting very often, generally they're pretty much pointless on the board they're on - but in certain cases they can still be fun and important, so I'd want them involved in my randomisation so they could pop up every now and then.

I have very fond memories of winning a game with a treasureless engine of Library/Festival/Chancellor - I wouldn't want that oppurtunity denied to anyone :p

Years in the future, I will pull out my old pile of Scouts.  Old, dusty, but original.  I'll sell it just like those old comics and get millions of dollars.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #482 on: October 06, 2016, 02:34:42 pm »
+4

As the 2nd editions get out and about, it's going to be harder and harder to get copies of the 12 removed cards. I know what I'd be like if I'd just found dominion right now, I'd start with the new editions, but, over time, I'd want to play with those 12 cards. Maybe they aren't that good, but I'd feel I'd want to decide that for myself.

So, I was wondering if there are any plans afoot to put out a "The lost cards" pack - just a little sort-of-expansion that gives you the 12 removed cards, for the people (like me) who like to have everything. It would be the crappiest dominion expansion ever, but hell I know I'd happily fork out a tenner for it if I had the 2nd editions. Variety is the spice of life, and some of those removed cards (woodcutter and chancellor) have featured importantly in some very fun games I've played. I know that the reason they're gone is sound - they aren't interesting very often, generally they're pretty much pointless on the board they're on - but in certain cases they can still be fun and important, so I'd want them involved in my randomisation so they could pop up every now and then.

I have very fond memories of winning a game with a treasureless engine of Library/Festival/Chancellor - I wouldn't want that oppurtunity denied to anyone :p

Years in the future, I will pull out my old pile of Scouts.  Old, dusty, but original.  I'll sell it just like those old comics and get millions of dollars.

You should save them, because you might need to pull out an old pile of Great Halls.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #483 on: October 06, 2016, 02:36:58 pm »
0

I really hate the art for sentry.

I thought merchant was prettier :(
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #484 on: October 06, 2016, 02:42:04 pm »
0

I really hate the art for sentry.

She's not happy with you, either.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #485 on: October 06, 2016, 02:42:39 pm »
+2

All updated Base card images (and the trash mat) are up.  Starting on Intrigue now.

EDIT: Everything is up!
For some reason unless if you click on the image it is still the old version.

Refresh the page.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #486 on: October 06, 2016, 04:05:23 pm »
+2

Upgrade does seem to be missing though.

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #487 on: October 06, 2016, 04:52:03 pm »
+2

MOAR PICTURES

New cards in the binders (my storage solution):


Removed cards pushed to the back of the bus:


Old cards put back in the 1st edition box:


Tokens, mats, Events and Landmarks, and rules moved to the new box:


Upgrade does seem to be missing though.

Fixed.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #488 on: October 06, 2016, 05:24:27 pm »
+3



I had high hopes for poacher's art, but it turns out to be the second card ever in Dominion that I will feel a bit embarassed to pull out in front of friends (and strangers too).
Even passing her gown-and-bra outfit (I'm definitely not a prude, but I'd like to see more common sense in fantasy art), how can she even hunt with her hair covering her eyes?
It's not even near some of the art you see in - say - MtG, but it's still something I wouldn't like to see Dominion import.
/rant

I must compliment the artist for the best depiction of fasans pheasants that I have ever seen in a board game.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2016, 05:40:22 pm by Accatitippi »
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #489 on: October 06, 2016, 05:31:15 pm »
+4

how can she even hunt with her hair covering her eyes?

Her hair is covering her left eye so she can see straight down the arrow with her right.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #490 on: October 06, 2016, 05:32:17 pm »
+2

I must compliment the artist for the best depiction of fasans that I have ever seen in a board game.

Pheasants?
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #491 on: October 06, 2016, 05:37:41 pm »
0

how can she even hunt with her hair covering her eyes?

Her hair is covering her left eye so she can see straight down the arrow with her right.

Closing one eye to take aim better is a myth, as far as I know (my two archer friend confirm this).
And I was complaining more about her generally looking like she is there to be taken pictures of rather than to hunt. I mean, I've tried to run in the woods with my medium-length hair loose, and I have a very precise idea of how impractical that is.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #492 on: October 06, 2016, 05:39:06 pm »
0

I must compliment the artist for the best depiction of fasans that I have ever seen in a board game.

Pheasants?

Yeah, those. I mixed that up with Norwegian, sorry.  ;D'
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #493 on: October 06, 2016, 08:31:35 pm »
0


Tokens, mats, Events and Landmarks, and rules moved to the new box:
[picture]


Wow, that trash mat is gigantic. I'm kinda turned off by that, but I guess it allows you to make multiple trash piles if doing so would be helpful (fan out trashed treasures for forager, put 3 to 5 cost cards in their own pile for Graverobber, etc.)
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #494 on: October 06, 2016, 11:32:13 pm »
+1


Tokens, mats, Events and Landmarks, and rules moved to the new box:
[picture]


Wow, that trash mat is gigantic. I'm kinda turned off by that, but I guess it allows you to make multiple trash piles if doing so would be helpful (fan out trashed treasures for forager, put 3 to 5 cost cards in their own pile for Graverobber, etc.)

I actually like it - I think it's a good size.  Played a couple games tonight with the new cards, Replace and Sentry were in both of them, and the trash mat got pretty full.

Card thoughts:
Merchant - meh.  Probably needs a really thin deck.  Kept whiffing.
Harbinger - pretty strong.  A cantrip, cheap Scavenger is kind of ridiculous, it sets things up so well.
Vassal - meh.  Also needs a really thin deck, as well as sources of +Action so you're not sad that you discarded Smithy.
Diplomat - finicky, but pretty sweet when you can get it to go off.  Didn't use the Reaction ever.
Mill - quite nice!  That + can come in very useful, and it helps trigger Diplomat.
Lurker - hilarious.  Exactly what everyone thought it would be.
Artisan - strong.  Quite strong.
Secret Passage - stronger than you might think, as long as it's not too near the end of a shuffle.  I once put a Curse as the 7th card down hoping I'd have a Sentry in my next hand, which I did!
Sentry - not too bad.  I think Junk Dealer is stronger, but it can synergize with Vassal.
Replace - very strong.  Replacing Estates into Mills is quite fun, but handing out Curses when you turn Golds into Provinces is kind of ridiculous.
Poacher - solid.  The one game we played with it, no piles emptied, so it was just a Peddler.  I was honestly hoping for a pile to empty to help trigger Diplomat, though. :(
Bandit - okay?  Better than Thief.  Gaining a Gold is nice, but the Attack portion never hit.
Courtier - pretty sweet, even with only 2-type cards.  Very flexible, and another Diplomat synergizer.
Patrol - pretty good.

Given that the 14 new cards have only one Village (and a finicky one at that) and only one +Buy, the two games were pretty interesting, trying to get everything to line up together.  Overall, I like them!  They're a lot more interesting than the removed cards, I found myself thinking a lot about what decisions to make, particularly with cards like Courtier, Secret Passage, and Artisan.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #495 on: October 06, 2016, 11:56:04 pm »
+1

Regardless of whether the cards or bad or good, it makes sense that we will be thinking about them in terms of decision making. They are new, after all.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #496 on: October 07, 2016, 03:26:17 am »
+6

Quote
I'll say it for everyone: it wasn't the greatest card in the world; it was just Tribute.

That made my evening, Donald.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #497 on: October 07, 2016, 07:55:44 am »
+2

Got my new editions. Best ones yet.

First whomever decided to put the inlays inside the manuals to stop them from getting damaged - Genius. Great move. Now whomever decided to make the gaps between the card piles in the plastic carton thing smaller, making it so a third of them were broken by the time I got the game - not a genius. They are all still usable but the Copper slot is a little cramped. This may be an old change I am only noticing now.

Cards arrived fine (except one pile was already half open? No cards missing though). Card quality is the best yet. Cards feel just like old ones do; great.

THE NEW TEXT IS SO MUCH MORE READABLE! No tiny fonts for the sake of tiny fonts. Clearer wordings. More concise wordings. Generally easier to understand. No weird uses of "immediately" or "including cards in other people's hands".

New cards I've tried so far:
Sentry: If you open this it's a rock star. If you get it in the first shuffle it's pretty good. If you get it in the second shuffle it's a slow trasher that misses a lot. Not a surprise.

Harbinger: Unsurprisingly this is kind of useless in a draw your deck engine.

Patrol: Really good draw

Courtier: Games where this is the only +Buy become really interesting with having to manage your deck to line it up with 2 type cards. Cool card.

Artisan: Exactly as good as it looks, meaning very good.

Trash mat is pretty big. Like, really big. Three cards wide! It's thin enough that it can be placed inside a row of the Wooden Artist Case to one side of a set of particular cards.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2016, 09:19:58 am by Chris is me »
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ObtusePunubiris

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #498 on: October 07, 2016, 09:28:24 am »
0


Tokens, mats, Events and Landmarks, and rules moved to the new box:
[picture]


Wow, that trash mat is gigantic. I'm kinda turned off by that, but I guess it allows you to make multiple trash piles if doing so would be helpful (fan out trashed treasures for forager, put 3 to 5 cost cards in their own pile for Graverobber, etc.)

It's definitely bigger than I thought it would be and it took me a while to find a convenient yet safe place for it in my storage case.  Problem solved though and it is everything I'd hoped for.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #499 on: October 07, 2016, 09:53:23 am »
0

I haven't gotten the sets yet. Is the trash mat bigger than tavern mats?

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #500 on: October 07, 2016, 10:02:08 am »
0

I haven't gotten the sets yet. Is the trash mat bigger than tavern mats?
Yes. You can see both the tavern mat and trash mat in the last picture from werothegreats post above.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #501 on: October 07, 2016, 10:02:19 am »
0

I haven't gotten the sets yet. Is the trash mat bigger than tavern mats?

Yes. It's mostly longer, not much taller though. It's the biggest mat Dominion has ever shipped with. It seems to comfortably hold three piles of trash cards (1 for unique treasures, 1 for 3-6 cost, 1 for the rest I guess)
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #502 on: October 07, 2016, 10:25:41 am »
0

I haven't gotten the sets yet. Is the trash mat bigger than tavern mats?
Yes. You can see both the tavern mat and trash mat in the last picture from werothegreats post above.

Aha, I missed that. Well it's nice to have a trash mat now that I'm not really caring around my Big Box mat anymore.

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #503 on: October 07, 2016, 04:12:47 pm »
+1

I have played one irl game yesterday. Artisan is actually better than I thought. While Altar trashes a card, you can either play the card you gained the same turn or top deck it and play it the next turn. This is really, really good, and if you already have decent trashing around, Artisan is by far way better than Altar. The top deck/put card in hand may actually make it better than Altar overall.

Harbinger. Chapel was on the board. Did not buy.

Merchant. Chapel was on the board, super easy to set up. Though, I think on boards with weak trashing, this won't be an exciting card, but with reasonable trashing, you have a $3-Peddler.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #504 on: October 10, 2016, 08:36:52 am »
+1

As the 2nd editions get out and about, it's going to be harder and harder to get copies of the 12 removed cards. I know what I'd be like if I'd just found dominion right now, I'd start with the new editions, but, over time, I'd want to play with those 12 cards. Maybe they aren't that good, but I'd feel I'd want to decide that for myself.

So, I was wondering if there are any plans afoot to put out a "The lost cards" pack - just a little sort-of-expansion that gives you the 12 removed cards, for the people (like me) who like to have everything. It would be the crappiest dominion expansion ever, but hell I know I'd happily fork out a tenner for it if I had the 2nd editions. Variety is the spice of life, and some of those removed cards (woodcutter and chancellor) have featured importantly in some very fun games I've played. I know that the reason they're gone is sound - they aren't interesting very often, generally they're pretty much pointless on the board they're on - but in certain cases they can still be fun and important, so I'd want them involved in my randomisation so they could pop up every now and then.

I have very fond memories of winning a game with a treasureless engine of Library/Festival/Chancellor - I wouldn't want that oppurtunity denied to anyone :p
There are no such plans, and I hope there never are.

Here's how things look from my perspective: there are also no plans to publish all of the outtakes that weren't good enough. An endless parade of unpublished cards. I have plenty of fond memories there too.

I suppose that's fair. Why publish those 12 and not the ones that got mentioned in that ludicrously long Prosperity Secret History, or any of the millions of cards in that Outtakes thread. You have to at some point draw a line and say "this is Dominion" and "this isn't Dominion". People can add in whatever cards they like to their own games - you aren't stopping anyone from using Woodcutter anymore than you're stopping someone using a City that starts at L3 and costs 2. It's just not "Dominion".
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #505 on: October 10, 2016, 02:30:53 pm »
+11

A lot of you demanded it. So I made the second part about the 2nd Edition, now about the new cards. Enjoy!

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #506 on: October 10, 2016, 05:57:25 pm »
+2

I keep three sleeved blanks to mark empty piles. It has a nice visual impact.

I love this idea.

EDIT: Now I wish I'd thought of this as something to include in the second editions.

Well, it could make a nice promo, maybe offering it bundled with a "real" promo card-shaped thing.
A lot of games offer purely aesthetic content as promos, and it usually seems to go over quite well.

(sorry for the necro, I only noticed your edit now)
« Last Edit: October 11, 2016, 02:58:05 am by Accatitippi »
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #507 on: October 10, 2016, 07:08:13 pm »
0

I keep three sleeved blanks to mark empty piles. It has a nice visual impact.

I love this idea.

EDIT: Now I wish I'd thought of this as something to include in the second editions.

Well, it could make a nice promo, maybe offering it bundled with a "real" promo card-shaped thing.
A lot of games offer purely aesthetical content as promos, and it usually seems to go over quite well.

(sorry for the necro, I only noticed your edit now)
That actually sounds cool, 3 cards with different art that all say "empty pile" or so. Of course, it's not much for a promo, maybe if they bundled it with a purple tavern mat and tokens....
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #508 on: October 11, 2016, 12:22:05 am »
+5

I keep three sleeved blanks to mark empty piles. It has a nice visual impact.

I love this idea.

EDIT: Now I wish I'd thought of this as something to include in the second editions.

Well, it could make a nice promo, maybe offering it bundled with a "real" promo card-shaped thing.
A lot of games offer purely aesthetical content as promos, and it usually seems to go over quite well.

(sorry for the necro, I only noticed your edit now)

Asthetical is not a word. Not trying to insult your intelligence, it just drives me crazy when people append -al to words to make them adjectives when the word is already an adjective.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #509 on: October 11, 2016, 02:56:44 am »
+4

I keep three sleeved blanks to mark empty piles. It has a nice visual impact.

I love this idea.

EDIT: Now I wish I'd thought of this as something to include in the second editions.

Well, it could make a nice promo, maybe offering it bundled with a "real" promo card-shaped thing.
A lot of games offer purely aesthetical content as promos, and it usually seems to go over quite well.

(sorry for the necro, I only noticed your edit now)

Asthetical is not a word. Not trying to insult your intelligence, it just drives me crazy when people append -al to words to make them adjectives when the word is already an adjective.

Thanks. When one learns a language by copying others some errors slip through and risk never being fixed. It's great to have them corrected.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #510 on: October 11, 2016, 07:19:01 am »
+2

I keep three sleeved blanks to mark empty piles. It has a nice visual impact.

I love this idea.

EDIT: Now I wish I'd thought of this as something to include in the second editions.

Well, it could make a nice promo, maybe offering it bundled with a "real" promo card-shaped thing.
A lot of games offer purely aesthetical content as promos, and it usually seems to go over quite well.

(sorry for the necro, I only noticed your edit now)

Asthetical is not a word. Not trying to insult your intelligence, it just drives me crazy when people append -al to words to make them adjectives when the word is already an adjective.

Thanks. When one learns a language by copying others some errors slip through and risk never being fixed. It's great to have them corrected.

I'm honestly just glad you didn't take that to be an insult.

Edit: Also, I never knew that English was your second language. As a side note, I know plenty of native English speakers that do it all the time
« Last Edit: October 11, 2016, 07:22:57 am by Doom_Shark »
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #511 on: October 11, 2016, 09:02:59 am »
+1

People seem down on Mill.

I don't get it. Surely it's the ultimate Alt-VP rush card. Gardens or Silk Road rushes are the ultimate time where "discard 2 cards for +2 coin" is a huge benefit, and Mill is a cantrip victory point, which is exactly what you want to be rushing in those sort of situations. I see Mill as maybe the elite Alt-VP rush card. Combining it with Silk Road in a rush would just be immense.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #512 on: October 11, 2016, 09:11:42 am »
+2

People seem down on Mill.

I don't get it. Surely it's the ultimate Alt-VP rush card. Gardens or Silk Road rushes are the ultimate time where "discard 2 cards for +2 coin" is a huge benefit, and Mill is a cantrip victory point, which is exactly what you want to be rushing in those sort of situations. I see Mill as maybe the elite Alt-VP rush card. Combining it with Silk Road in a rush would just be immense.

It's just a bit pricey for that role. You can't get too many Mill first, since it competes with Gardens / Silk Road for your $4 buy and you can't lose those splits. So you get them second, while struggling to hit $4. It'll still be a key rush card, just not as great as it looks at first glance. Clutch for Ironworks games though for sure.

Overall I like Mill way more than Great Hall, and I appreciate how I might actually buy it. It's very hard to not hit $5 in a normal deck when you have a Mill in hand. It's really a mini Vault.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #513 on: October 11, 2016, 10:05:47 am »
+2

I think Mill is almost as good as Horse Traders at hitting $5 in a deck where you want to do that (Duke, IGG, etc), plus it gives you a VP which is nice in those decks, and it's also more versatile.

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #514 on: October 11, 2016, 06:12:57 pm »
0

I think Mill's best comparison is Oasis. Unlike Oasis, there's not a critical quantity where it starts hurting your deck (unless you're playing a deck that hates cantrips), and it can count as two Oases if you discard two bad cards. If you discard a Copper, the result can be approximated to playing just one Oasis.
Sometimes the double discard might get unwieldy, I guess - but it's not nearly as bad as Oasis' mandatory discard.
So, it's almost strictly better than Oasis, for a quite insignificant cost increase. Oasis might not be amazing, but it's not weak either, and I expect Mill to fare about as well in the 4$ rankings. (4-ers are definitively a more competitive bunch than 3ers)
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #515 on: October 11, 2016, 06:18:40 pm »
0

Opening Mill in engines looks so good. You easily hit five without buying Silver and it isn't a stopcard later on.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #516 on: October 11, 2016, 06:29:35 pm »
+1

I think Mill is almost as good as Horse Traders at hitting $5 in a deck where you want to do that (Duke, IGG, etc), plus it gives you a VP which is nice in those decks, and it's also more versatile.

Horse Traders: +$3, discard two, +buy
Mill: +1 Card, +$2, discard two

It cycles, and it is optional as well. Mill is fantastic, and I have no idea why people say it is weak.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #517 on: October 11, 2016, 10:23:47 pm »
0

I think Mill is almost as good as Horse Traders at hitting $5 in a deck where you want to do that (Duke, IGG, etc), plus it gives you a VP which is nice in those decks, and it's also more versatile.

Horse Traders: +$3, discard two, +buy
Mill: +1 Card, +$2, discard two

It cycles, and it is optional as well. Mill is fantastic, and I have no idea why people say it is weak.
Horse traders isn't the best card ever.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #518 on: October 11, 2016, 10:31:20 pm »
0

I'm planning to get a game in with some of the new cards on Thursday. I may have to post my thoughts after I do.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #519 on: October 12, 2016, 12:33:03 am »
0

My local game store has been slow in getting them; I won't be able to buy it til Monday, and getting it online now will probably take the same amount of time to get it here. Wjy Monday? Because when I went yesterday, they said the would have them within the week. I was so looking forward to poacher; really glad to see the "cares about empty piles" thing done again. Tried to make some fan cards with that once, but they didn't work out. Besides, that's for another thread.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #520 on: October 12, 2016, 12:53:34 am »
0

I think Mill is almost as good as Horse Traders at hitting $5 in a deck where you want to do that (Duke, IGG, etc), plus it gives you a VP which is nice in those decks, and it's also more versatile.

Horse Traders: +$3, discard two, +buy
Mill: +1 Card, +$2, discard two

It cycles, and it is optional as well. Mill is fantastic, and I have no idea why people say it is weak.
Horse traders isn't the best card ever.

A big part of why it sucks is because it's a terminal and because it requires you to discard. Mill is neither of those things!
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #521 on: October 12, 2016, 01:15:27 am »
0

A big part of why it sucks is because it's a terminal and because it requires you to discard. Mill is neither of those things!

A big part of why it costs $4 is the reaction
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #522 on: October 12, 2016, 08:49:29 am »
0

A big part of why it sucks is because it's a terminal and because it requires you to discard. Mill is neither of those things!

A big part of why it costs $4 is the reaction

And the +Buy.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #523 on: October 12, 2016, 09:00:28 am »
0

A big part of why it sucks is because it's a terminal and because it requires you to discard. Mill is neither of those things!

A big part of why it costs $4 is the reaction

Yes. I'm pretty sure in a Militia game you prefer a Reaction that defends against that over a cantrip. Even in a game against Witch, the additional card makes HT behave exactly like an optional cantrip - with more money. I'd go so far as to say that the absence of any (reasonably strong) attack buffs Horse Trader enough to overshadow Mill. Provided of course there's no synergy that buffs Mill itself, like Ironworks, Silk Road etc..
« Last Edit: October 12, 2016, 09:01:29 am by Asper »
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #524 on: October 12, 2016, 09:44:16 am »
0

I'd go so far as to say that the absence of any (reasonably strong) attack buffs Horse Trader enough to overshadow Mill.

I think you meant presence here. :)
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #525 on: October 12, 2016, 04:58:42 pm »
+1

I'd go so far as to say that the absence of any (reasonably strong) attack buffs Horse Trader enough to overshadow Mill.

I think you meant presence here. :)

Yup, I did. And thinking about it, the attack strength doesn't really matter that much. Either it's a discard attack and Horse Trader defends against it (where Mill would be greatly weakened, if not even a liability as you don't know what you'll draw), or it's not, and Horse Trader becomes a cantrip with optional discard for +1 Buy, +$3. Obviously Mill does stay nonterminal and keeps its VP, but I don't think that makes up in such cases. However, if the 5$s you want are terminal, that certainly shifts balance towards Mill.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #526 on: October 15, 2016, 04:26:38 pm »
0

Thanks to Qvist for the review of the new cards.  Very informative.  When compared with your thoughts on the old cards, it looks like Donald has come up with some excellent upgrades over the previous editions. 

I really look forward to playing with these.  I always play IRL.  So I plan to keep my discontinued cards and still have them in my randomizer deck for future use, except possibly Saboteur.  I really did not like that card.  And for some reason, though my wife loves the card, I have always hated Tribute.  It just felt too much to me like an attack that I couldn't react to or prevent in any way. However, since she likes it, I will probably keep it in the rotation.  After all, it takes a long time to go through the full deck of randomizers.  So seeing it once every few months isn't that big of an issue.

Also the new Promo looks great.  I would imagine that it will eventually be available on BGG like the others.  Does anyone know if that is definitely true?
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #527 on: October 15, 2016, 05:04:26 pm »
+17

I keep three sleeved blanks to mark empty piles. It has a nice visual impact.

I love this idea.

EDIT: Now I wish I'd thought of this as something to include in the second editions.

Well, it could make a nice promo, maybe offering it bundled with a "real" promo card-shaped thing.
A lot of games offer purely aesthetical content as promos, and it usually seems to go over quite well.

(sorry for the necro, I only noticed your edit now)

Asthetical is not a word. Not trying to insult your intelligence, it just drives me crazy when people append -al to words to make them adjectives when the word is already an adjective.

You're just being pedantical.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #528 on: October 15, 2016, 05:32:22 pm »
+5

Quote
I have always hated Tribute.  It just felt too much to me like an attack that I couldn't react to or prevent in any way.

It is (was) absolutely, unequivocally not an attack. In fact, it helps you by cycling your cards more quickly.

This is a critically important thing to understand, because it helps you mentally adjust your attitude toward randomness. What you're doing is "counting the hits" which is the same fallacy that causes people to believe in psychic powers or assign magical explanations to coincidences. You only remember the times that Tribute "skipped" your good cards, and ignore all the times it skipped cards you didn't want, or got you to your good cards one turn quicker, or triggered a reshuffle so that you had access to a recent purchase sooner.

It's the same reason you don't play Millstone in a Magic deck unless your win condition is, specifically, decking your opponent. Otherwise, all you're doing is swapping out one set of random cards for another set of random cards and it has absolutely no effect. Magic newbies who believe that Millstone is a denial card will point to the cards in your discard and say "see, I milled your [X], therefore I denied you that card." No, you didn't. Shuffle luck denied me that card. It had just as much chance of being at the bottom.

It's the same reason Rabble "skipping" cards is absolutely NOT part of the attack. Only putting green on top is relevant in a Rabble attack. The card cycling is actually helpful. I swear I'm going to have to start smacking people at the table if they keep saying "Oh, no! You Rabbled my [X]!" like it mattered. If I've trashed my Estates and I'm engine-building, I BEG people to Rabble so I get my purchases quicker.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #529 on: October 15, 2016, 05:38:30 pm »
+4

I keep three sleeved blanks to mark empty piles. It has a nice visual impact.

I love this idea.

EDIT: Now I wish I'd thought of this as something to include in the second editions.

Well, it could make a nice promo, maybe offering it bundled with a "real" promo card-shaped thing.
A lot of games offer purely aesthetical content as promos, and it usually seems to go over quite well.

(sorry for the necro, I only noticed your edit now)

Asthetical is not a word. Not trying to insult your intelligence, it just drives me crazy when people append -al to words to make them adjectives when the word is already an adjective.

You're just being pedantical.

That joke is simply terrifical.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #530 on: October 15, 2016, 05:43:41 pm »
+8

Quote
I have always hated Tribute.  It just felt too much to me like an attack that I couldn't react to or prevent in any way.

It is (was) absolutely, unequivocally not an attack. In fact, it helps you by cycling your cards more quickly.

This is a critically important thing to understand, because it helps you mentally adjust your attitude toward randomness. What you're doing is "counting the hits" which is the same fallacy that causes people to believe in psychic powers or assign magical explanations to coincidences. You only remember the times that Tribute "skipped" your good cards, and ignore all the times it skipped cards you didn't want, or got you to your good cards one turn quicker, or triggered a reshuffle so that you had access to a recent purchase sooner.

It's the same reason you don't play Millstone in a Magic deck unless your win condition is, specifically, decking your opponent. Otherwise, all you're doing is swapping out one set of random cards for another set of random cards and it has absolutely no effect. Magic newbies who believe that Millstone is a denial card will point to the cards in your discard and say "see, I milled your [X], therefore I denied you that card." No, you didn't. Shuffle luck denied me that card. It had just as much chance of being at the bottom.

It's the same reason Rabble "skipping" cards is absolutely NOT part of the attack. Only putting green on top is relevant in a Rabble attack. The card cycling is actually helpful. I swear I'm going to have to start smacking people at the table if they keep saying "Oh, no! You Rabbled my [X]!" like it mattered. If I've trashed my Estates and I'm engine-building, I BEG people to Rabble so I get my purchases quicker.

I agree that one shouldn't buy a Rabble variant (or Tribute) for the purpose of denying cards to their opponent, but I do not agree with you on "smacking people at the table if they keep saying "Oh, no! You Rabbled my [X]!" like it mattered."
Having a key card skipped by Rabble can hurt a lot in many situations. Rabble is about as likely to make your opponent skip their Traveller as to make them fast-forward to it, but the two results are not equivalent. :)
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #531 on: October 15, 2016, 06:23:03 pm »
+5

First impressions of the new cards, having played a few games with them:

Harbinger

It suffers a bit from Settlers Syndrome: If you're engine-building, it's a do-nothing card, because a huge amount of time you have no discard pile. At least Settlers works with sifting because it increases your handsize once you've discarded a Copper and pulled it back. Sifting and Harbinger is almost completely useless.

It might end up being a decent card in Slogs or Rushes to re-use key cards, on the other hand. I used it in a Rebuild game to topdeck Rebuilds or sometimes Silvers if I needed to hit $5 for another Duchy.

Merchant

Nothing to report yet. It hasn't been a key card in any kingdom we've played so far, but I can't imagine it won't be. We just had another Peddler game that came down to Peddler mania, even with only a trash-one (Then again, two Foragers and Bonfire will turn your entire deck into a Peddler party pretty darned quick.) Merchant will have its day.

Vassal

My new favorite terminal Silver. Oh, wait. It's not usually terminal. Seriously, it does an amazing impression of Conspirator. All you have to do is get it a little help, and there are a LOT of cards that help it, including the new kids: Sentry and Secret Passage! It's so great playing a terminal Silver, turning up a Cantrip and then continuing on your merry way.

Also, it's a very happy King's Court target, even without deck manipulation. But then again, what isn't a happy KC target?

Poacher

Very interesting card. I watched several players buy at least two, and nobody wanted to be the first to pile something out. We ended up with several one-card piles. I'm going to watch for TfB the next time it appears, because I feel like I might start the Poacher rush, then TfB mine and buy the last one just to inflict Oases on opponents.

Bandit

Gain a gold is interesting. In 4P, everyone's so paranoid about losing treasure that they all play treasureless engines if possible. Definitely a huge upgrade over Thief, but you'll have to ask yourself how much Gold you want.

Sentry

I had high hopes for this card, but I'm having second thoughts. At first, I though it would be a better trasher than Junk Dealer, and it emphatically is NOT. It has only two cards to choose from, and JD has five. Getting it to match up with junk is surprisingly difficult, especially because it's a $5 and you've bought four keepers by the time you play it even once.

That said, I do have to say that the discard/inspection/topdecking capability is perhaps the most important thing about this card. It enables Vassal, Mystic, Wishing Well, Herald, Tunnel, etc., it skips the green, and it's non-terminal. It's actually a pretty great utility card. It's just not an elite trasher.

Artisan

Came up in a Rebuild game. Believe it or not, it wasn't relevant. Maybe it's because I just didn't try hard enough to hit $6, but after buying some Rebuilds you really have to hammer the Duchy pile. I really wanted to Artisan a bunch of Duchies, too, but I won without an Artisan at all. That said, it's a great $5-gainer, and if you don't have extra actions, putting the gained card on top is especially nice to avoid the collision. That seems to be predominant play for this card so far: Gain/topdeck the gained card.

Lurker

Nobody in my playgroup is sold on this so far, but the interesting thing is that as soon as one player buys one, others jump in and buy one to try to snipe the trashed actions. No one has yet built an engine and subsequently bought two at once.

Diplomat

Hasn't been great so far. Some tried handsize-decreasing to enable it, but it's been difficult to get it to match up with handsize-decreasers because you don't want too many of those. It could theoretically work with optional handsize-decreasers like Mill.

Mill

Money for green is relevant. However, it's not good if there is other sifting, because you're already discarding your green. For example, I tried one Mill in an engine that also had Embassy. Nope.

Secret Passage

Possibly my favorite new card. I love that it enables so many other cards that care about the specific location of a card in your deck, especially ones that care about the SECOND card in your deck. I can't tell you how many times I've looked at a top-decking card and thought about how it might work with Herald or Wishing Well...nope.

I also really like sifters that don't decrease your hand size. Forum and Archive are great. Secret Passage is right up there.

It's also relevant to smooth out draws; sometimes you bottom-deck a green card or several, knowing that you're going to get your draw components quicker and re-draw the green anyway, but after you have your engine pieces in hand, rather than tripping on them along the way. Or you can put the green second from the top and turn your Vagrant into the Lab it so desperately wants to be but usually isn't.

You also have to love that it enables new cards like Sentry and Vassal.

Courtier

A bit underwhelming. Flexibility is good, though, and it's been relevant even in games without multiple-identity cards. Gold gaining can be quite good. Sometimes you really need a +buy that badly, and sometimes you really need $3 that badly. It's almost always worth buying one. ONE. Don't get carried away.

I have to say it can be hard to evaluate cards depending on the type of game you're playing. Courtier and Bandit, for example, get quite a bit better in a Palace game. You can lose out on points by not having enough Silvers!

Patrol

I would buy Smithy at $5. +3 cards is just that good. Sifting Green while you're at it is great. This card slaps Scout's stupid face right off. No surprise there.
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JThorne

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #532 on: October 15, 2016, 06:37:57 pm »
0

Quote
Rabble is about as likely to make your opponent skip their Traveller as to make them fast-forward to it, but the two results are not equivalent.

Ah, but they ARE equivalent, in that they are, as you say, equally likely. Therefore, the play of Rabble is not the determining factor that denied you your Champion. Shuffle luck is. The shuffle was just as likely to have put it at the bottom as in Rabble range, but players react as though it was the Rabble that denied them their Champion. It wasn't. It was the shuffle. Yes, the result is the same, but it's the reaction that's wrong, in that it's a mental error that causes people to believe that Rabble's cycling is part of the attack.

And, in fact, in a Traveler game, Rabble is usually more helpful than not, because it gets you back to your upgraded Travelers more quickly so that you can upgrade them again. Travelers love cycling, and Rabble cycles your opponents!

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AdrianHealey

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #533 on: October 15, 2016, 09:12:30 pm »
0

Quote
Rabble is about as likely to make your opponent skip their Traveller as to make them fast-forward to it, but the two results are not equivalent.

Ah, but they ARE equivalent, in that they are, as you say, equally likely. Therefore, the play of Rabble is not the determining factor that denied you your Champion. Shuffle luck is. The shuffle was just as likely to have put it at the bottom as in Rabble range, but players react as though it was the Rabble that denied them their Champion. It wasn't. It was the shuffle. Yes, the result is the same, but it's the reaction that's wrong, in that it's a mental error that causes people to believe that Rabble's cycling is part of the attack.

And, in fact, in a Traveler game, Rabble is usually more helpful than not, because it gets you back to your upgraded Travelers more quickly so that you can upgrade them again. Travelers love cycling, and Rabble cycles your opponents!

The net anticipated value of the rabble is a derivative of how many cards you do or do not want to see skipped. The net value of the rabble, after the outcome is revealed, can differ.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #534 on: October 16, 2016, 05:20:07 am »
+3

Poacher

Very interesting card. I watched several players buy at least two, and nobody wanted to be the first to pile something out. We ended up with several one-card piles. I'm going to watch for TfB the next time it appears, because I feel like I might start the Poacher rush, then TfB mine and buy the last one just to inflict Oases on opponents.
This seems weird (though I kinda get the psychological effect). I think with everyone having the same amount of Poachers, you generally want to be the one that ends a pile first. It's like inverse City: With City, you don't want to end a pile first beause then your opponent will be profiting first; with Poachers, they will suffer first.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #535 on: October 16, 2016, 07:25:48 am »
+3

Quote
Rabble is about as likely to make your opponent skip their Traveller as to make them fast-forward to it, but the two results are not equivalent.

Ah, but they ARE equivalent, in that they are, as you say, equally likely. Therefore, the play of Rabble is not the determining factor that denied you your Champion. Shuffle luck is. The shuffle was just as likely to have put it at the bottom as in Rabble range, but players react as though it was the Rabble that denied them their Champion. It wasn't. It was the shuffle. Yes, the result is the same, but it's the reaction that's wrong, in that it's a mental error that causes people to believe that Rabble's cycling is part of the attack.
But it was Rabble that denied their Champion.
Consider:
Case A: Champion is somewhere in the shuffle, you don't get Rabbled. You'll definitely see Champ in X turns (where x is the number of turns between two shuffles.
Case B: Same deck, but Champion got skipped by Rabble. You are only guaranteed to see Champ in the next X+Y turns, where Y is the number of turns before you shuffle after being Rabbled. This is assumes that no further Rabbles are played.

For the sake of Champ-playing, B is definitively worse than A. Thus, a play of Rabble just denied you a card. It was random and kind of unpredictable, but it is definitively relevant.
If I know that the last three cards in your deck contain your Champion, I'll be very happy to play a Rabble, for example.

Quote
And, in fact, in a Traveler game, Rabble is usually more helpful than not, because it gets you back to your upgraded Travelers more quickly so that you can upgrade them again. Travelers love cycling, and Rabble cycles your opponents!
Aye, I agree, but sometimes the pain of luckily skipping a Traveller can be worth the risk of free cycling your opponent.
It's like a lottery, where if you win they slow down by a bunch of turns, and if you don't they get there half a turn earlier.
How likely you are to hit is a function of how thick their deck is, it might be worth it or not, but winning or losing at the lottery have significantly different outcomes.

Or, to put it another way: assuming no other Village but Champion, would you buy a Smithy to get to Champion earlier (ignoring the other benefits of Smithy)? Each Smithy you play provides 3 cards of cycling, but if you draw your Travellers you're waiting an extra shuffle, just like being hit by Rabble. I think that in a vacuum you want the Smithy because of the future mega-Champion benefit and because you can track your deck and be smart, but would you be happy to give your opponent the choice of when to make you play it or not?
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #536 on: October 16, 2016, 10:12:38 am »
0

Also, you could say that same about a Swindler that happened to hit your $5 cost card: It was not the Swindler attack, but shuffle luck that placed that card at the top right then. (The difference between Rabble and Swinder in general is of course that Swindler is more likely to hurt, but we're talking about a specific play of the card.)

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #537 on: October 16, 2016, 03:33:52 pm »
+5

Well, it could make a nice promo, maybe offering it bundled with a "real" promo card-shaped thing.
A lot of games offer purely aesthetical content as promos, and it usually seems to go over quite well.

Asthetical is not a word. Not trying to insult your intelligence, it just drives me crazy when people append -al to words to make them adjectives when the word is already an adjective.

You're just being pedantical.

That joke is simply terrifical.

The funniest thing for me about this sub-thread is that "aesthetical" is in fact a word: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/aesthetical

It's just that the meaning of aesthetical ("of or relating to aesthetics, relating to the philosophy or theory of beauty") is different from the meaning of aesthetic ("of or pertaining to the appreciation or criticism of the beautiful") - the right word to use in the post that started this whole thing.

Reading for extra credit: http://www.dailywritingtips.com/aesthetic-or-aesthetical/
« Last Edit: October 16, 2016, 03:36:20 pm by Thanar »
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #538 on: October 16, 2016, 06:22:23 pm »
0

Sentry

I had high hopes for this card, but I'm having second thoughts. At first, I though it would be a better trasher than Junk Dealer, and it emphatically is NOT. It has only two cards to choose from, and JD has five. Getting it to match up with junk is surprisingly difficult, especially because it's a $5 and you've bought four keepers by the time you play it even once.

I concede that it is stronger earlier than later (as are all trashers), but it is still superior to Junk Dealer by a wide margin.  Trash two vs trash one is powerful, plus I'm not sacrificing buying power the turn I play it like Chapel or Ambassador, for instance.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #539 on: October 17, 2016, 07:53:25 am »
+2

Sentry

I had high hopes for this card, but I'm having second thoughts. At first, I though it would be a better trasher than Junk Dealer, and it emphatically is NOT. It has only two cards to choose from, and JD has five. Getting it to match up with junk is surprisingly difficult, especially because it's a $5 and you've bought four keepers by the time you play it even once.

I concede that it is stronger earlier than later (as are all trashers), but it is still superior to Junk Dealer by a wide margin.  Trash two vs trash one is powerful, plus I'm not sacrificing buying power the turn I play it like Chapel or Ambassador, for instance.

You're really not sacrificing buying power with Junk Dealer either, and you really don't trash two cards THAT often with Sentry. I thought it would be superior to Junk Dealer too, but it really doesn't seem that way unless you have some way of controlling the top of your deck.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #540 on: October 17, 2016, 08:37:04 am »
0

I really like the name Sentry for that card. Like it's a bouncer keeping the crap cards out and letting the good ones through.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #541 on: October 17, 2016, 01:21:22 pm »
0

Sentry

I had high hopes for this card, but I'm having second thoughts. At first, I though it would be a better trasher than Junk Dealer, and it emphatically is NOT. It has only two cards to choose from, and JD has five. Getting it to match up with junk is surprisingly difficult, especially because it's a $5 and you've bought four keepers by the time you play it even once.

I concede that it is stronger earlier than later (as are all trashers), but it is still superior to Junk Dealer by a wide margin.  Trash two vs trash one is powerful, plus I'm not sacrificing buying power the turn I play it like Chapel or Ambassador, for instance.

You're really not sacrificing buying power with Junk Dealer either, and you really don't trash two cards THAT often with Sentry. I thought it would be superior to Junk Dealer too, but it really doesn't seem that way unless you have some way of controlling the top of your deck.

Yeah, the one game I've played with Sentry so far, I think I trashed maaaybe two cards in total the first three times I played in. (Bad shuffle luck, mainly—but note it's a lot more likely to miss reshuffles than Junk Dealer, too.) On the other hand, it was great for setting up my Vassal.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #542 on: October 17, 2016, 02:29:32 pm »
0

I've also found Sentry to be less powerful than it first appears.  At first it's faster than upgrade or junk dealer, but becomes slower once your deck is less than 50% junk.  I reached the 50% point faster than I expected, by the 4th shuffle?  Which means you only get about one play of Sentry where it is the better trasher.

Of course Junk Dealer eventually becomes a dead card, where Sentry is at least a mini cartographer.  All in all I think it is about the same level as Junk Dealer.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #543 on: October 17, 2016, 02:35:03 pm »
0

I've also found Sentry to be less powerful than it first appears.  At first it's faster than upgrade or junk dealer, but becomes slower once your deck is less than 50% junk.  I reached the 50% point faster than I expected, by the 4th shuffle?  Which means you only get about one play of Sentry where it is the better trasher.

Of course Junk Dealer eventually becomes a dead card, where Sentry is at least a mini cartographer.  All in all I think it is about the same level as Junk Dealer.
but sentry gets you too that point way faster than jd.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #544 on: October 17, 2016, 02:49:59 pm »
0

I've also found Sentry to be less powerful than it first appears.  At first it's faster than upgrade or junk dealer, but becomes slower once your deck is less than 50% junk.  I reached the 50% point faster than I expected, by the 4th shuffle?  Which means you only get about one play of Sentry where it is the better trasher.

Of course Junk Dealer eventually becomes a dead card, where Sentry is at least a mini cartographer.  All in all I think it is about the same level as Junk Dealer.
but sentry gets you too that point way faster than jd.

When you account for how you're probably also buying good stuff while also getting Sentry, it really doesn't go faster. Trashing 2 cards with Sentry happens MAYBE 2 or 3 times, then a few times times it trashes a single card, then it's a sifter that sometimes trashes. It really hurts that you can't easily open it.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2016, 02:58:32 pm by Chris is me »
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #545 on: October 17, 2016, 04:56:54 pm »
0

I played one game with Sentry. Now, as others have noted it does tend to trigger reshuffles. On my first sentry play, I trashed two cards and usually from then on, I was trashing one card at a time which is still JD level good. I think I got two or three Sentries that game. However, of note, I also used it's ability to discard or rearrange several times that game. That ability is actually more useful than people realize.

Is it as good as JD, most likely not. However, on a board with both, I would want to open Sentry over JD and then probably pick up a JD as my second trasher, as I think Sentry is a better trasher to get first.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #546 on: October 17, 2016, 07:41:43 pm »
0

Poacher

Very interesting card. I watched several players buy at least two, and nobody wanted to be the first to pile something out. We ended up with several one-card piles. I'm going to watch for TfB the next time it appears, because I feel like I might start the Poacher rush, then TfB mine and buy the last one just to inflict Oases on opponents.
This seems weird (though I kinda get the psychological effect). I think with everyone having the same amount of Poachers, you generally want to be the one that ends a pile first. It's like inverse City: With City, you don't want to end a pile first beause then your opponent will be profiting first; with Poachers, they will suffer first.

This doesn't disqualify your point at all, but it's also worth keeping in mind that this means that you're spending that turn buying a worse card and you'll have one more downgraded-Poacher in your deck.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #547 on: October 17, 2016, 07:58:56 pm »
0

It'd be funny to play a game with poacher and City. As soon as your cities start drawing, your poachers start discarding!

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #548 on: October 17, 2016, 08:05:31 pm »
+1

Poacher

Very interesting card. I watched several players buy at least two, and nobody wanted to be the first to pile something out. We ended up with several one-card piles. I'm going to watch for TfB the next time it appears, because I feel like I might start the Poacher rush, then TfB mine and buy the last one just to inflict Oases on opponents.
This seems weird (though I kinda get the psychological effect). I think with everyone having the same amount of Poachers, you generally want to be the one that ends a pile first. It's like inverse City: With City, you don't want to end a pile first beause then your opponent will be profiting first; with Poachers, they will suffer first.

This doesn't disqualify your point at all, but it's also worth keeping in mind that this means that you're spending that turn buying a worse card and you'll have one more downgraded-Poacher in your deck.

Note that faust said "ends a pile", not "ends the poacher pile"  :)

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #549 on: October 18, 2016, 01:03:27 am »
0

It'd be funny to play a game with poacher and City. As soon as your cities start drawing, your poachers start discarding!

I think that the cares about empty piles mechanic is very clever and worth exploring. Still not sure if it is a good fit for base though...will have to see when I (finally) get the upgrade pack friday.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #550 on: October 18, 2016, 01:06:05 am »
0

Also, just now realizing that people have been pointing to poacher as evidence that a fixed-cost Peddler is a bit too strong for $4 but too weak for $5...I point you all to Baker as the original evidence of that.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #551 on: October 18, 2016, 01:09:58 am »
0

Also, just now realizing that people have been pointing to poacher as evidence that a fixed-cost Peddler is a bit too strong for $4 but too weak for $5...I point you all to Baker as the original evidence of that.

Not treasury?

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #552 on: October 18, 2016, 01:42:47 am »
+2

That joke is simply terrifical.

Thanksal!
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #553 on: October 18, 2016, 02:30:54 am »
0

In the game with poacher and tower, will you purchase this last one? :)
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #554 on: October 18, 2016, 02:42:43 am »
0

It'd be funny to play a game with poacher and City. As soon as your cities start drawing, your poachers start discarding!

I think that the cares about empty piles mechanic is very clever and worth exploring. Still not sure if it is a good fit for base though...will have to see when I (finally) get the upgrade pack friday.

Yeah, it feels like a better fit with Intrigue to me—the "has different effects depending on when it is played" behavior is reminiscent of Conspirator, Shanty Town, and Diplomat.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #555 on: October 18, 2016, 09:49:58 am »
0

Also, just now realizing that people have been pointing to poacher as evidence that a fixed-cost Peddler is a bit too strong for $4 but too weak for $5...I point you all to Baker as the original evidence of that.

Poacher is very good. Imagine all those times you open Oasis for cycling.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #556 on: October 18, 2016, 09:53:26 am »
0

Also, just now realizing that people have been pointing to poacher as evidence that a fixed-cost Peddler is a bit too strong for $4 but too weak for $5...I point you all to Baker as the original evidence of that.

Poacher is very good. Imagine all those times you open Oasis for cycling.

Yeah, it's not like Poacher suddenly becomes a bad card with one pile gone. Maybe with 2 piles it's time to start trashing them for benefit, but with one gone it's just Oasis, a usually workable card.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #557 on: October 18, 2016, 10:07:45 am »
+5

Also, just now realizing that people have been pointing to poacher as evidence that a fixed-cost Peddler is a bit too strong for $4 but too weak for $5...I point you all to Baker as the original evidence of that.

Poacher is very good. Imagine all those times you open Oasis for cycling.

So Oasis' position as a good opening cycler has been... poached?
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #558 on: October 18, 2016, 10:08:39 am »
+1

Also, just now realizing that people have been pointing to poacher as evidence that a fixed-cost Peddler is a bit too strong for $4 but too weak for $5...I point you all to Baker as the original evidence of that.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Baker is strictly better than Peddler effect (Black Market edge case); so even if Peddler at $4 existed, it would have to cost $5.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #559 on: October 18, 2016, 10:37:06 am »
0

Also, just now realizing that people have been pointing to poacher as evidence that a fixed-cost Peddler is a bit too strong for $4 but too weak for $5...I point you all to Baker as the original evidence of that.

Not treasury?

Or Market?
Edit: Those only prove it's too weak for $5, by the way, which nobody argued against.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2016, 10:38:30 am by Asper »
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #560 on: October 18, 2016, 11:02:48 am »
0

Also, just now realizing that people have been pointing to poacher as evidence that a fixed-cost Peddler is a bit too strong for $4 but too weak for $5...I point you all to Baker as the original evidence of that.

Poacher is very good. Imagine all those times you open Oasis for cycling.

So Oasis' position as a good opening cycler has been... poached?
Shit I'd open Poacher / Oasis on many boards. Mainly boards with $5 cost trashers and strong engines without a ton of draw to spare.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #561 on: October 18, 2016, 08:19:25 pm »
+8

Also, just now realizing that people have been pointing to poacher as evidence that a fixed-cost Peddler is a bit too strong for $4 but too weak for $5...I point you all to Baker as the original evidence of that.

I actually think it's evidence that fixed-cost Peddler is totally appropriate at $4, and the Secret History suggests the same:

Quote from: Donald X.
Poacher: This is in a player interaction slot, vacated by Spy. I thought of having some vanilla bonuses with the penalty of discarding a card per empty pile. The vanilla bonuses had to be essentially fair at the price of the card, since you might never empty a pile until the game was over. So really it required a vanilla card I hadn't made yet. Well there was one of those, and it was +1 Card +1 Action +$1 for $4. So there it is. Avoiding making that card all these years finally paid off.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #562 on: October 19, 2016, 10:53:25 am »
0

We've been playing a few games with the new cards just to get used to interesting interactions. The deck manipulation stuff is just too much fun.

Bad Poacher ended up being a minor benefit: Discard junk, topdeck it with Harbinger, then play Sentry (or Lookout, which really appreciates not accidentally turning up three good cards.)

Of course, my absolute favorite: Secret Passage, puting a junk card FOURTH from the top. Secret Passage again, putting a junk card SECOND from the top. Sentry, drawing a card, then revealing the two junk cards and trashing both. That just makes me giggle like a little girl.

Also: Secret Passage, putting a VP card fourth from the top. Patrol, drawing three plus at least one VP card.

I also watched a someone win a Colony game playing something close to Secret Passage/BM with light trashing in a board with terminals and no villages. At first, it looked like he was just spinning his wheels turn after turn, but Mined up to a couple of Platina and ended up with a green-proof single-Colony engine that didn't stall once. It's that good a sifter. Definitely my favorite new card.

« Last Edit: October 19, 2016, 10:58:25 am by JThorne »
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #563 on: October 19, 2016, 11:00:39 am »
0

Harbinger sentry doesn't look good or am I overlooking something?
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #564 on: October 19, 2016, 05:51:59 pm »
0

Quote
Harbinger sentry doesn't look good or am I overlooking something?

Oh, it's not exactly good. It's just interesting. Bad Poacher/Harbinger/Sentry is probably one of the most convoluted "trash one card from your hand" plays I can think of. But it did actually happen a few times in a game with those cards and no cards that actually trash from your hand.

So far, Harbinger has been most useful in slogs, and Sentry has been most useful for filtering and topdecking (such as putting a cantrip or other action on top for Vassal, my second-favorite new card.)

(Hmm. Puzzle idea? Most convoluted "trash one card from your hand" play. No using the same action twice.)
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #565 on: October 19, 2016, 06:00:35 pm »
+1

Quote
Harbinger sentry doesn't look good or am I overlooking something?

Oh, it's not exactly good. It's just interesting. Bad Poacher/Harbinger/Sentry is probably one of the most convoluted "trash one card from your hand" plays I can think of. But it did actually happen a few times in a game with those cards and no cards that actually trash from your hand.

So far, Harbinger has been most useful in slogs, and Sentry has been most useful for filtering and topdecking (such as putting a cantrip or other action on top for Vassal, my second-favorite new card.)

(Hmm. Puzzle idea? Most convoluted "trash one card from your hand" play. No using the same action twice.)

But how does it work at all? Harbinger puts the card on your deck. Sentry then draws it.

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #566 on: October 19, 2016, 06:02:23 pm »
0

Quote
Harbinger sentry doesn't look good or am I overlooking something?

Oh, it's not exactly good. It's just interesting. Bad Poacher/Harbinger/Sentry is probably one of the most convoluted "trash one card from your hand" plays I can think of. But it did actually happen a few times in a game with those cards and no cards that actually trash from your hand.

So far, Harbinger has been most useful in slogs, and Sentry has been most useful for filtering and topdecking (such as putting a cantrip or other action on top for Vassal, my second-favorite new card.)

(Hmm. Puzzle idea? Most convoluted "trash one card from your hand" play. No using the same action twice.)

But how does it work at all? Harbinger puts the card on your deck. Sentry then draws it.
you have to get borrow and villa in the mean time.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #567 on: October 20, 2016, 04:38:05 pm »
0

Quote
But how does it work at all? Harbinger puts the card on your deck. Sentry then draws it.

Right, of course. I meant Lookout, not Sentry. Brain freeze. Making Lookout guaranteed not to hit three good cards is sometimes handy.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #568 on: October 20, 2016, 07:02:11 pm »
0

But how does it work at all? Harbinger puts the card on your deck. Sentry then draws it.
I assumed whoever said that meant to say Secret Passage and Sentry.

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #569 on: October 28, 2016, 10:24:35 am »
+1

Hopefully the update packs are easy to get in Canada!

I think I'll apply errata with stickers to my binder pockets, so when a card is taken out I can remind the players.

Yes, I am also in Canada and would buy the update packs on the spot.

I bought the update packs at my local game store here in Montreal. Yay for distribution in Canada!
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #570 on: October 29, 2016, 01:23:14 am »
0

Had an interesting game to introduce me to the new cards: almost all of them were in the black market deck
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #571 on: October 29, 2016, 04:26:36 am »
0

I bought the update packs at my local game store here in Montreal. Yay for distribution in Canada!

Yeah, one of our shops was able to get them in for me.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #572 on: October 31, 2016, 10:33:52 am »
0

Some thoughts on the second edition of Intrigue,  Played a game with the following kingdom: Expand, Wharf, Replace, Patrol, Workers Village, Villa, Secret Passage, Sacrifice, Smugglers, and some other card I don't remember. 
Obvious engine. I opened Sacrifice and Smugglers and then got a five copper hand in the first reshuffle. Easy transition into a wharf+engine. My payload: Replace.
Holy cow Replace is AWESOME! Not only could I transfer Smuggled Silver into wharves (actually I think I used it to get a village onto my deck to continue drawing) but when I started to pull ahead with cycling I used replace to turns Golds into Province and Province into Province, all the while cursing my opponent.

We all know that Remodel Province to Province is great to get a clock on the game, but Replace makes it so much better because it gives you one more VP ahead due to the cursing. Big fan.

Patrol didn't see play b/c Wharf was available, Secret Passage was OK. It was good to seed next hands with draw or extra villages.

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #573 on: October 31, 2016, 10:39:32 am »
0

Further 2E thoughts after this weekend:

Sentry continues to underwhelm me as a trasher, and I keep losing games by getting it late or not investing as much in better trashing.

Artisan is super good. Especially with nonterminal draw, and / or Village support. It stays good far later than other gainers do. You hardly care about the reduced hand size.

Harbinger is kinda cute sometimes.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #574 on: November 06, 2016, 12:42:52 pm »
+1

Sentry continues to underwhelm me as a trasher, and I keep losing games by getting it late or not investing as much in better trashing.

Sentry early is great.  But if you get it late, well yes, you are probably going to lose.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #575 on: November 06, 2016, 02:44:39 pm »
0

Why on earth would you get Sentry late? It's good for the same reason Junk Dealer is good, in that it trashes quickly and efficiently. You don't use JD later, and you don't use Sentry all that often later. I wonder if you get two Sentries like you often get two JDs. I'd love to test this eventually.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #576 on: November 06, 2016, 04:57:19 pm »
0

JD trashes one card at a time so it's not a fast trasher. It's good because you get to choose from your hand. If you're building a draw engine - often the point of trashing - JD will keep being good. Sentry will only be good for trashing early, right? The more good cards you add, the less likely you will be to hit crap.

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #577 on: November 06, 2016, 05:09:04 pm »
0

JD is good because it gives you a coin in return for the card you lose from your hand due to the trashing. Sentry is good because it never makes you lose a card from your hand in the first place. In both cases, this means that you get to trash and you get to buy something decent on the same turn.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #578 on: November 06, 2016, 05:13:49 pm »
0

I've played a few games with Sentry, and I think the card is amazing. You definitely want it as early as possible to increase your chances of hitting the cards you want out of your deck, but he still works late by allowing you to dump green cards off the top. Twice, I even used his ability to put cards back in order to keep my engine going and still draw into payload (I switched Gold and Lab when I only had one cantrip left in hand).
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #579 on: November 06, 2016, 05:43:40 pm »
+1

Why are we calling sentry he? I mean there's even a woman on the card. Are we going to have the discussion about genders of cards again?

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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #580 on: November 06, 2016, 05:50:01 pm »
+4

Why are we calling sentry he?

Who's "we"?
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #581 on: November 06, 2016, 06:05:36 pm »
+3

Why are we calling sentry he? I mean there's even a woman on the card. Are we going to have the discussion about genders of cards again?
Why does this even matter.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #582 on: November 06, 2016, 06:13:00 pm »
0

Sentry is the first ever true cantrip trasher. While it's swingier than most, unlike every other trasher, once you have the Sentry it costs you literally nothing to trash cards. I imagine it's an elite opener and a strong turn 3-4 buy.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #583 on: November 06, 2016, 07:12:51 pm »
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Everytime I've played with sentry, it's been pretty good. Even in the late game, it has its uses.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #584 on: November 06, 2016, 07:34:47 pm »
0

JD is good because it gives you a coin in return for the card you lose from your hand due to the trashing. Sentry is good because it never makes you lose a card from your hand in the first place. In both cases, this means that you get to trash and you get to buy something decent on the same turn.

That's all correct (except that you might not get to trash with Sentry), but I was only talking about how efficient these cards are at trashing, as a reply to the previous post from Seprix etc.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2016, 07:36:08 pm by Jeebus »
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #585 on: November 06, 2016, 10:17:50 pm »
0

Why are we calling sentry he? I mean there's even a woman on the card. Are we going to have the discussion about genders of cards again?

Let's not continue this discussion before posts start getting removed again.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #586 on: November 06, 2016, 10:45:18 pm »
+6

Why are we calling sentry he? I mean there's even a woman on the card. Are we going to have the discussion about genders of cards again?

Let's not continue this discussion before posts start getting removed again.

Yeah, everyone listen to Seprix, she has a really good point. Nobody say anything if anyone misgenders, just keep moving along.

Anyhow, I've been playing with Sentry kind of over and over again to get a hang of when it's Really Good and if there's anything weird about it. It's just kind of a meh trasher. Upgrade and JD are better, really, but Sentry is far better to open with. Anything to load your discard pile or deck with junk helps it though.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #587 on: November 06, 2016, 11:33:32 pm »
0

Anyhow, I've been playing with Sentry kind of over and over again to get a hang of when it's Really Good and if there's anything weird about it. It's just kind of a meh trasher. Upgrade and JD are better, really, but Sentry is far better to open with. Anything to load your discard pile or deck with junk helps it though.

I think what a lot of people miss is that it isn't just a trasher, it is also a mini cartographer.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #588 on: November 07, 2016, 11:49:55 am »
0

Anyhow, I've been playing with Sentry kind of over and over again to get a hang of when it's Really Good and if there's anything weird about it. It's just kind of a meh trasher. Upgrade and JD are better, really, but Sentry is far better to open with. Anything to load your discard pile or deck with junk helps it though.

I think what a lot of people miss is that it isn't just a trasher, it is also a mini cartographer.

I mean, yes. I'm not electing to skip buying it because I don't think it's good later, so I'm still using it. But, it just hasn't been good for me if I don't open with it. It trashes like maybe 3 cards.

And really the Cartographer thing barely helps - you either want the card out of your deck or you want it in your hand until the late game, and by then either you got thin enough that it doesn't matter or you draw it at the end of your line anyway. I'll keep trying it. Maybe playing 100 games with it online once the new Dominion comes out will change my mind. I really want it to be good.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #589 on: November 07, 2016, 12:29:16 pm »
0

Sentry is the first ever true cantrip trasher. While it's swingier than most, unlike every other trasher, once you have the Sentry it costs you literally nothing to trash cards. I imagine it's an elite opener and a strong turn 3-4 buy.

Junk Dealer?
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #590 on: November 07, 2016, 12:30:48 pm »
+1

Sentry is the first ever true cantrip trasher. While it's swingier than most, unlike every other trasher, once you have the Sentry it costs you literally nothing to trash cards. I imagine it's an elite opener and a strong turn 3-4 buy.

Junk Dealer?

Junk dealer also reduces handsize. Sentry doesn't.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #591 on: November 07, 2016, 12:55:16 pm »
0

JD is good because it gives you a coin in return for the card you lose from your hand due to the trashing. Sentry is good because it never makes you lose a card from your hand in the first place. In both cases, this means that you get to trash and you get to buy something decent on the same turn.

That's all correct (except that you might not get to trash with Sentry), but I was only talking about how efficient these cards are at trashing, as a reply to the previous post from Seprix etc.

I wasn't particularly addressing my post at yours.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #592 on: November 07, 2016, 03:33:44 pm »
0

Sentry is the first ever true cantrip trasher. While it's swingier than most, unlike every other trasher, once you have the Sentry it costs you literally nothing to trash cards. I imagine it's an elite opener and a strong turn 3-4 buy.

Junk Dealer?

Junk dealer also reduces handsize. Sentry doesn't.

It also has a mandatory trash, which means it can be a dead card. I would classify a "true" cantrip as a card you can always play for at least a card and an action and it never hurts to do so (barring not wanting to draw that card for whatever reason).
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #593 on: November 07, 2016, 04:22:04 pm »
0

Quote
I mean, yes. I'm not electing to skip buying it because I don't think it's good later, so I'm still using it. But, it just hasn't been good for me if I don't open with it. It trashes like maybe 3 cards.

And really the Cartographer thing barely helps - you either want the card out of your deck or you want it in your hand until the late game, and by then either you got thin enough that it doesn't matter or you draw it at the end of your line anyway.

This has been my experience so far, as well.

Unless you have topdeck control, Sentry is a weak trasher. I would much rather have Lookout, which digs three cards deep looking for trash, and you can always open with it.

I only look hard at Sentry if I either have deck manipulation and can put back things to trash, or if I have some use for the Cartographer effect like Mystic/Wishing Well, etc. Otherwise, it may not be worth the $5 buys. If it's the only trasher, it may simply not be possible to get thin. At its best, it's a key piece. At its worst, it feels a little Pearl Diverish.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #594 on: November 07, 2016, 04:32:30 pm »
0

A lot of differentiating opinions on Sentry. I am willing to gut my initial opinions that Sentry is one of the best trashers for now because of this, but I would like to play with it some more before declaring it great or not so great.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #595 on: November 07, 2016, 04:37:21 pm »
0

A lot of differentiating opinions on Sentry. I am willing to gut my initial opinions that Sentry is one of the best trashers for now because of this, but I would like to play with it some more before declaring it great or not so great.
Well, I had one game where I got sentry out of the black market deck, and that near won the game for me. Like any card, it depends on the board, obviously, but this provides a bit of a more objective view on its power in a vacuum. Granted, it will never be in a vacuum, but there you go.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #596 on: November 07, 2016, 06:38:07 pm »
0

After playing some games with 2nd edition cards, the one I most underrated was Patrol.

For example, we were playing a 3-player Mountebank game without trashing, and I thought, gotta be a slog, right?  Patrol seemed like it could defend against curses, but it was also awkward that it reduced the chance that you'd have a curse in hand next turn to discard.  Anyways, one player skipped Mountebank and built a passable engine out of Patrol.  I've seen this a few times, Patrol is great for making engines resistant to junk.

I'm also impressed by Bandit.  I had never really played one of those games where Thief dominates (my group knows better than to think Thief is good), but now I've played a couple with Bandit.  After losing the Bandit war badly in 4P, I had to go for a Poor House / Royal Carriage strategy, which was hilarious but not very good.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #597 on: November 09, 2016, 03:59:55 pm »
0

I finally received my copy of the second editions and the new promo. Looking forward to playing with the new cards tonight. I think the most underrated aspect of the new cards, other than the improved wording for all the cards, is the improved card art for a few of the cards, such as Moat, Torturer, masquerade, and ironworks.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #598 on: November 19, 2016, 09:44:42 am »
0

Quick question. Are there any plans to update the set of base cards with the larger symbols for treasure and vp? I'd love another set of base cards with the better design like in second edition base set.

I have the second edition intrigue update pack, and I think my favorite new card is replace. Trash for benefit that is also a junker???? I thought I died and gone to dominion heaven when I saw that card. Courtier and lurker are also good. A little disappointed with the mill, but the only games I played with the mill had decent trashing or no junking attack. But it does have such a good interaction with replace. Oddly enough (and I may regret saying this) I feel like scout would make the mill way better.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #599 on: November 19, 2016, 09:48:07 am »
+1

Quick question. Are there any plans to update the set of base cards with the larger symbols for treasure and vp? I'd love another set of base cards with the better design like in second edition base set.
Yes, Base Cards will be updated, at a time based on when supplies run out and printer availability.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #600 on: November 22, 2016, 06:47:57 am »
+1

I just got an email from the German publisher saying that a German release of second edition cars is currently being planned, and will happen around fall 2017
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #601 on: November 22, 2016, 06:57:38 am »
0

I just got an email from the German publisher saying that a German release of second edition cars is currently being planned, and will happen around fall 2017

I guess that means the Dutch edition will be released in the summer of 2018, if we're lucky.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #602 on: November 27, 2016, 02:26:20 pm »
0

I feel most bad for the Polish publisher, who just put out a new version of Intrigue this past summer. :/
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #603 on: December 13, 2016, 10:35:43 am »
+2

I'm just going to talk about Scout more now. People didn't care about Van Gogh or Jesus (to some extent) when they were alive, did they? It was only until they were dead that everyone was like 'Nice paintings bro' or 'Nice religion bro.'

So this isn't over. This is just the start.
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Re: Dominion and Intrigue second editions
« Reply #604 on: December 13, 2016, 10:42:19 am »
+4

I'm just going to talk about Scout more now. People didn't care about Van Gogh or Jesus (to some extent) when they were alive, did they? It was only until they were dead that everyone was like 'Nice paintings bro' or 'Nice religion bro.'

So this isn't over. This is just the start.
Nice religion bro.
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