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Author Topic: Correct Way To Play This Kingdom  (Read 8916 times)

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NolanA

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Correct Way To Play This Kingdom
« on: September 13, 2016, 11:09:09 pm »
+1

I sometimes play Dominion under an alias to test new strategies or new cards.  Today I played under the alias "Player Z" and did a game that included 4 cards I am not familiar with -- Prince, Horse Trader, Farming Village, and Harvest.  The kingdom is below.



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Chapel, Moat, Bureaucrat, Farming Village, Horse Traders, Spy, Council Room, Festival, Harvest, Prince
The game log is at http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160914/log.0.1473820620061.txt .  I purchased each of the 4 new cards, so I got a feel for them.  I think all of them are interesting additions that I'd like to see in games more often.  Prince in particular seems to open the door to new types of games and strategies.  I came up with an okay enough strategy to win, but I'm sure this wasn't the best way to play the kingdom.  I opened Silver/Chapel, bought a Horse Trader next, then used it to quickly get Golds and higher priced cards.  I chose to Prince the Horse Trader, rather than the Farming Village.

I am curious what would be a more optimal way to play this kingdom?
« Last Edit: September 14, 2016, 02:32:01 am by NolanA »
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Re: Correct Way To Play This Kingdom
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2016, 11:18:28 pm »
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I would trash down and get festivals,council rooms and golds.
There might be something for princeing a moat but I probably wouldn't do it. 1 horse traders is probably good.
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Re: Correct Way To Play This Kingdom
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2016, 11:36:35 pm »
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Do you open Silver or Horse Traders?
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Re: Correct Way To Play This Kingdom
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2016, 11:52:05 pm »
+1

Do you open Silver or Horse Traders?
Probably horse traders because you want to hit 5 and colliding HT with chapel is just as bad as colliding it with silver
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faust

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Re: Correct Way To Play This Kingdom
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2016, 03:51:07 am »
+2

I chose to Prince the Horse Trader, rather than the Farming Village.

This is definitely the wrong move. Princing a Horse Traders is like playing a Militia on yourself each turn.
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NolanA

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Re: Correct Way To Play This Kingdom
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2016, 05:14:29 am »
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I chose to Prince the Horse Trader, rather than the Farming Village.
This is definitely the wrong move. Princing a Horse Traders is like playing a Militia on yourself each turn.

I wasn't clear in my earlier post in that I drew a hand of Prince, Horse Traders, Chapel, Silver, and Festival; so the choice was whether to Prince the Horse Traders on that turn or wait for the next shuffle and try for the Farming Village (or a Moat, if purchased on that turn).  The deck had 12 cards at that point, so not bad odds.  However, I had starting buying Provinces at that point, so reaching end game.   I did end up getting a benefit from the Princed Horse Traders since I generally had 2+ things with no penalty for discarding, such as green or extra terminal.  I purchased 5 Provinces + 1 Dutchy in the first 4 turns with the Prince-Horse Traders active, which would likely have been 1 fewer Province and 1 fewer Dutchy without the Horse Trader active.   

Does this seem like a kingdom where Prince is a worthwhile buy?
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faust

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Re: Correct Way To Play This Kingdom
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2016, 05:28:07 am »
+1

Does this seem like a kingdom where Prince is a worthwhile buy?

No, for two reasons:
a) Prince is good for decks which need the increased reliability of playing a certain card each turn. Like, making sure you have at least 2 actions available each turn. This kingdom has strong trashing, so you will always draw your deck. Then there is no real need for Prince.
b) Prince can still be good with good targets. Strong draw is usually best, or stuff like Monument to make you gain VP each turn. Here you have Horse Traders, which is a fine card for this deck, but you don't want to play it at the start of your turn; Farming Village, which is just a regular Village here and Princing Villages is never that amazing; Spy, Moat and Bureaucrat, whcih you'd never add to your deck normally; and Chapel, where the only benefit of Princing is that of an expensive non-VP Island.
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NolanA

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Re: Correct Way To Play This Kingdom
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2016, 05:35:04 am »
0

I would trash down and get festivals,council rooms and golds.
There might be something for princeing a moat but I probably wouldn't do it. 1 horse traders is probably good.

I appreciate the input.  I'm not a big fan of Council/Festival/Chapel type engines in Base cards games, unless they include a terminal hand size attack or something similarly powerful to enhance the engine.  Without such enhancements, it's been my experience that Council: Big Money variants win over the engine more often than not.  However, I don't have a good sense of how much the new cards would enhance things, such as using the Horse Trader to buy the initial engine components more quickly.

Is Council: Big Money a viable alternative strategy here?  Or would it be effectively destroyed by an opponent playing an engine in this kingdom?
« Last Edit: September 14, 2016, 05:44:47 am by NolanA »
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NolanA

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Re: Correct Way To Play This Kingdom
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2016, 05:51:47 am »
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a) Prince is good for decks which need the increased reliability of playing a certain card each turn. Like, making sure you have at least 2 actions available each turn. This kingdom has strong trashing, so you will always draw your deck. Then there is no real need for Prince.
b) Prince can still be good with good targets. Strong draw is usually best, or stuff like Monument to make you gain VP each turn. Here you have Horse Traders, which is a fine card for this deck, but you don't want to play it at the start of your turn; Farming Village, which is just a regular Village here and Princing Villages is never that amazing; Spy, Moat and Bureaucrat, whcih you'd never add to your deck normally; and Chapel, where the only benefit of Princing is that of an expensive non-VP Island.

Thanks, that is the type of detailed input on the new cards that I was hoping for when starting this thread.
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Re: Correct Way To Play This Kingdom
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2016, 08:19:41 am »
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Prince of Moat isn't terrible. Considering Moat is the only source of draw that doesn't help your opponent, I'd at least consider it. $10, 2 buys, and 1 play for the equivalent of two Hirelings ($12, 2 buys, 2 plays) is pretty good, especially with a razor thin deck that has no trouble colliding the cards.

Harvest sucks here, but it kind of always sucks.
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Re: Correct Way To Play This Kingdom
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2016, 12:24:09 pm »
+1

Is Council: Big Money a viable alternative strategy here?  Or would it be effectively destroyed by an opponent playing an engine in this kingdom?

The engine seems much better than CR+BM. It could be viable if Chapel was not present.
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Re: Correct Way To Play This Kingdom
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2016, 03:18:58 pm »
+1

You can play the b-crat pin.
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Re: Correct Way To Play This Kingdom
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2016, 03:54:21 pm »
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You can play the b-crat pin.

That's hard with Council Room as your primary draw. Plus there's Moat. And it won't work until your opponent has like 5 Provinces.
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Re: Correct Way To Play This Kingdom
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2016, 09:46:10 am »
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You can play the b-crat pin.

That's hard with Council Room as your primary draw. Plus there's Moat. And it won't work until your opponent has like 5 Provinces.

Well, it's practically impossible to win with it ever, on any board. But you can play it.
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Re: Correct Way To Play This Kingdom
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2016, 09:55:26 am »
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You can play the b-crat pin.

That's hard with Council Room as your primary draw. Plus there's Moat. And it won't work until your opponent has like 5 Provinces.

Well, it's practically impossible to win with it ever, on any board. But you can play it.

Yeah, the Bureaucrat pin is something I have always put in my mind as "something Stef gets to do every once in awhile that looks cool, but is firmly out of my grasp unless it's given to me on a Silver platter." It's a nontrivial attack here I guess, but it seems more trouble than it's worth.
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Re: Correct Way To Play This Kingdom
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2016, 10:48:42 am »
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Farming village rather negates a bureaucrat pin.

This is similar to many base set kingdoms where you should make the engine knowing that it might not be significantly better than council room + treasure. In fact, in a three player game I'd be tempted to stick with council room + treasure. It is worth considering opening farming village +chapel.
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Re: Correct Way To Play This Kingdom
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2016, 11:52:30 am »
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I'd honestly consider a Chapel / Bureaucrat open here? Maybe it has that unfortunate tendency to make Chapel miss shuffles more often or pair Silver and Chapel too much, but the attack is really annoying for making opponents keep Estates around, the first few Silvers give you the early economy you need to buy all your Festivals and Council Rooms, and you can eventually Chapel it and the Silvers away if they're getting annoying. Horse Traders would make more sense if every other board component didn't give you a buy, and you weren't thinning so add and fast, but you are.

But then after thinking about it, I would probably just do Chapel Silver anyway.
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Re: Correct Way To Play This Kingdom
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2016, 12:21:57 pm »
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I'd honestly consider a Chapel / Bureaucrat open here?
I think it's bad. If they collide, it's slower than buying Silver. If they don't collide, you could draw Bureaucrat first and then you'll have to put a Silver on top when the next hand you want to trash with Chapel. It also increases the chance of chapel missing the shuffle. The only good case is T3 Chapel/T4 Bureaucrat.
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Re: Correct Way To Play This Kingdom
« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2016, 12:29:38 pm »
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Yeah, the Bureaucrat pin is something I have always put in my mind as "something Stef gets to do every once in awhile that looks cool, but is firmly out of my grasp unless it's given to me on a Silver platter." It's a nontrivial attack here I guess, but it seems more trouble than it's worth.

Has Stef actually done the Bureaucrat pin (and won)? Because if he has, color me surprised. As far as I'm concerned, the Bureaucrat pin with perfect execution loses to BMU.
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Re: Correct Way To Play This Kingdom
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2016, 12:39:41 pm »
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Yeah, the Bureaucrat pin is something I have always put in my mind as "something Stef gets to do every once in awhile that looks cool, but is firmly out of my grasp unless it's given to me on a Silver platter." It's a nontrivial attack here I guess, but it seems more trouble than it's worth.

Has Stef actually done the Bureaucrat pin (and won)? Because if he has, color me surprised. As far as I'm concerned, the Bureaucrat pin with perfect execution loses to BMU.

I remember watching him play a game with Bureaucrat, Masquerade, and maybe a discard attack, that forced his opponent into a two card hand every turn with an Estate on top. I don't think it was a full pin but it was certainly a giant slowdown.
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Re: Correct Way To Play This Kingdom
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2016, 12:56:55 pm »
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It only seems possible with masquerade.
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Re: Correct Way To Play This Kingdom
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2016, 01:51:28 am »
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I remember watching him play a game with Bureaucrat, Masquerade, and maybe a discard attack, that forced his opponent into a two card hand every turn with an Estate on top. I don't think it was a full pin but it was certainly a giant slowdown.

Yeah, I also remember something with Masquerade, but then you're pinning your opponent with Masquerade+low hand size, not really with Bureaucrat.

Although now that I searched for it, I found Marin pulling off the real deal with 5 Bureaucrats every turn. Sadly, the log is no longer available, but apparently his opponent's play was clearly suboptimal and it was only thanks to that that he was able to do it.
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Re: Correct Way To Play This Kingdom
« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2016, 11:16:21 am »
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I remember watching him play a game with Bureaucrat, Masquerade, and maybe a discard attack, that forced his opponent into a two card hand every turn with an Estate on top. I don't think it was a full pin but it was certainly a giant slowdown.

Yeah, I also remember something with Masquerade, but then you're pinning your opponent with Masquerade+low hand size, not really with Bureaucrat.

Although now that I searched for it, I found Marin pulling off the real deal with 5 Bureaucrats every turn. Sadly, the log is no longer available, but apparently his opponent's play was clearly suboptimal and it was only thanks to that that he was able to do it.
After you have pinned them you can keep on doing it without playing masq. though
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Re: Correct Way To Play This Kingdom
« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2016, 11:59:04 am »
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After you have pinned them you can keep on doing it without playing masq. though

I think you have to think that through again.
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Re: Correct Way To Play This Kingdom
« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2016, 12:20:27 pm »
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After you have pinned them you can keep on doing it without playing masq. though

I think you have to think that through again.
Turn you set up pin
Play masq pass estate
Play b-crat estate goes on top
play masq pass estate
play bcrat estate goes on top
play masq pass estate
play bcrat estate goes on top
play masq pass estate
play bcrat estate goes on top
play masq pass estate
play bcrat estate goes on top
Opponent has 0 cards in hand and has 5 estates(or any victory card) on top
Playing five b-crats a turn will keep them at 0.
You just have to not let those silvers get out of hand.
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