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[BrianB68]

I don't know if it's just me, but I don't think the rules are clear on how debt interacts with gain and trashing.

From the rules:
Amounts that do not specify coins have a 0 coin cost.
For the engineer card:  Engineer cannot gain a copy of itself, or any other card with debt in the cost.
Why?  I could gain a copper, which has a 0 coin cost, which is "up to 4".  Why is the 0 coin cost of engineer not "up to 4"?
Is there a general rule that you cannot gain a card with a debt cost, other than by buying?  If so, I don't see it.

Also from the rules, an example - Knights trash cards costing from 3 to 6.  That never includes cards with debt in the cost.  Does this just mean that there aren't any cards with a 3-6 cost and debt, or is it stating a rule that you can't trash a card with debt in the cost?

[A Drowned Kernel]

Debt cost is a separate thing from coin cost. Engineer costs 4 debt, 0 coin. It gains a card costing up to 4 coin- or another way of putting it, a card costing up to 4 coin, 0 debt. Engineer costs more than 0 debt, so it can't gain itself.

There's no general rule saying you can't gain a debt card other than by buying it, but a card would have to say something like "gain a card costing up to 8 debt." And you can gain a debt card with a card like Jester.

[GendoIkari]

Debt acts just like Potion in this respect. You cannot gain a Scrying Pool or Alrchemist with a Workshop because 2P is not "up to" $4.

[ConMan]

The rule is that when you compare two costs (whether it's comparing the cost of two cards, or the cost of a card with a fixed amount), then Cost A is less than or equal to Cost B only if, for each "type" of cost (Coins, Potions, Debt) it is equal or less (and it is only equal if all three are equal). So (3 Coins, 0 Potions, 0 Debt) is less than all of: (3 Coins, 1 Potion, 0 Debt), (3 Coins, 0 Potions, 1 Debt) and (4 Coins, 0 Potions, 0 Debt). It is not less than (2 Coins, 1 Potion, 0 Debt) or (0 Coins, 0 Potions, 8 Debt).

So Knights can only trash cards whose costs are 3, 4, 5 or 6 coins exactly, since those are the only costs which are greater than or equal to 3 coins and less than or equal to 6 coins. Engineer cannot gain itself, because 4 Debt is not less than or equal to 4 Coins.

Note that some cards specify cost in coins. In those cases, you ignore Potions and Debt entirely. If you use Salvager to trash a Fortune, you get 8 Coins because Salvager specifically looks only at the coin cost. If you use Forge to trash Royal Blacksmith, its 8 Debt cost is ignored and it doesn't add any coins to the value of the card you will gain.

[BrianB68]

Thanks for the answers.  It's more clear to me now.  It's all about the comparison rule then.  It's kind of a strange way of implementing debt, but it definitely gives a new dimension to the game, and I'm really enjoying the expansion so far.

[GendoIkari]

Glad we could help; welcome to the forums!

[Jeebus]

Just to give a simpler reply...

Why is the 0 coin cost of engineer not "up to 4"?

"Up to [4 coins]" means "up to [4 coins and 0 debt]".
Engineer costs [0 coins and 4 debt].
4 debt is is not "up to" 0 debt.

[Asper]

Thanks for the answers.  It's more clear to me now.  It's all about the comparison rule then.  It's kind of a strange way of implementing debt, but it definitely gives a new dimension to the game, and I'm really enjoying the expansion so far.

While i argued there should have been better ways to implement debt in the beginning, after some discussion it became clear to me that all alternatives have big issues. Alternatives would be:

- Any debt card costs just $0 and has an effect that says: "When you gain this, take X debt". Problem: With a gainer, you can gain any number of these. Being able to gain an Overlord because of Hermit, Workshop etc. wasn't intended, although it probably wouldn't break the game - you still take that debt, after all.
- Alternatively, you could have each card cost its cost in coins and have a line like "To buy this, you may pay less than its cost. If you do, take 1 debt per 1$ paid less" (or something like that). Problem here is that you can buy those cards with almost no money in hand and then trash them to Remodel etc and gain much more expensive cards.

The current solution still has issues - while it was relatively obvious that Potions are simply a secondary resource to coins, this isn't so obvious with debt. You can still think of it as such: A resource. Here the issues are more about rules simplicity than gameplay (which are the issues of the alternatives), though, and the idea was apparently that a slight increase of complexity would offer a gameplay improvement that made up for it.

[theoliver]

When I play Jester and another player reveals Fortune do I have to take 8 debt tokens upon collecting a copy of Fortune from the supply?

[Doom_Shark]

When I play Jester and another player reveals Fortune do I have to take 8 debt tokens upon collecting a copy of Fortune from the supply?

No. Debt is only taken as a "cost" when you buy the card - it is still part of the cost. If you like, you can think of it as a when-buy effect in this case - you take the debt on buys, not gains.

[MatthewCA]

Sorry for the edge case, but I'm curious about this. Let's say I buy an engineer with $1, and reveal a trader to turn it into a silver. Do I still take the debt tokens?

[Jeebus]

Sorry for the edge case, but I'm curious about this. Let's say I buy an engineer with $1, and reveal a trader to turn it into a silver. Do I still take the debt tokens?

Yes, since you get debt when you buy the Engineer. You then gain it, and that's when Trader kicks in.

[GendoIkari]

Sorry for the edge case, but I'm curious about this. Let's say I buy an engineer with $1, and reveal a trader to turn it into a silver. Do I still take the debt tokens?

Yes, since you get debt when you buy the Engineer. You then gain it, and that's when Trader kicks in.

Are the rules specific that getting debt tokens is a "when-buy" event like Talisman and such? Or is taking the debt tokens simply the cost that's paid to buy the card, in the same way that subtracting from your available is the cost required to buy Village?

Not that I can think of any situation in which it matters, but I'm curious.

[Watno]

Debt is the cost (but you don't pay it)

[GendoIkari]

Debt is the cost (but you don't pay it)

That's what I thought. So you haven't actually finished buying the card until you've taken the debt.