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Author Topic: It Finally Happened: A Game Where Scout Was Good  (Read 3493 times)

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Robz888

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It Finally Happened: A Game Where Scout Was Good
« on: September 13, 2016, 09:52:39 am »
+4



Code: [Select]
Ironworks, Messenger, Pirate Ship, Plaza, Scout, Catacombs, Horn of Plenty, Merchant Ship, Vault, Altar

I've been mostly away from the Forums for the past year, so apologies if there's been some paradigm shift and the expert opinion on Scout has shifted. But in my day it was considered the very worst card in all of Dominion. I have gone years without buying it at all.

Well, last night I finally had a game where I acquired a Scout--two Scouts, in fact. And I'm convinced it was the right move. Scout helped my deck! Take a look at the log: https://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160913/log.0.1473731690423.txt

So, this is obviously a Horn of Plenty game: we have villages and we have draw. What we don't have is terrific trashing: all we have for that is Altar. I opened Silver / Messenger-Ironworks with the intention of grabbing as many Plazas as possible. My first $6 was an Altar, and it was pretty much Plazas, Horns, and Catacombs after that.

Of course, we quickly ran out of Plazas, which left my Ironworks with nothing to gain, except... Scout. Scout! It's an extra card for the Horns, so that's good. And the re-arrangement effect was useful, because this is sort of a wobbly engine consisting of a major component that doesn't draw anything--the Horns--and I really need my Plazas to find Catacombs. Scout helped. Not a lot, mind you. But in this one, rare case, it was better than nothing.
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Davio

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Re: It Finally Happened: A Game Where Scout Was Good
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2016, 10:04:52 am »
+1

I feel cheated because you gained Scouts instead of buying them.  :-\
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McGarnacle

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Re: It Finally Happened: A Game Where Scout Was Good
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2016, 10:30:05 am »
0

I feel cheated because you gained Scouts instead of buying them.  :-\

Yeah, a real fan would have bought them instead of Plazas and Ironworks  :).
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Seprix

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Re: It Finally Happened: A Game Where Scout Was Good
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2016, 10:32:36 am »
0

Wow. I'd go for the Vault BM, but then Pirate Ship actually does something for once, and so the engine is too good (and BM too bad) to ignore HoP and the Villages. Win the Village split, win the game. Scout might actually be okay here. I cannot believe it.
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Re: It Finally Happened: A Game Where Scout Was Good
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2016, 10:34:27 am »
+14

Oh God someone delete this before Roadrunner sees it.
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The best reason to lynch Haddock is the meltdown we get to witness on the wagon runup. I mean, we should totally wagon him every day just for the lulz.

M Town Wins-Losses (6-2, 75%): 71, 72, 76, 81, 83, 87 - 79, 82.  M Scum Wins-Losses (2-1, 67%): 80, 101 - 70.
RMM Town Wins-Losses (0-1, 0%): x - 31.  RMM Scum Wins-Losses (3-3, 50%): 33, 37, 43 - 29, 32, 35.
Modded: M75, M84, RMM38.     Mislynched (M-RMM): None - None.     Correctly lynched (M-RMM): 101 - 33, 33, 35.       MVPs: RMM37, M87

Seprix

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Re: It Finally Happened: A Game Where Scout Was Good
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2016, 10:42:33 am »
0

Oh God someone delete this before Roadrunner sees it.

If we stop talking here, he won't see it.
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faust

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Re: It Finally Happened: A Game Where Scout Was Good
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2016, 10:49:16 am »
+3

I mean, to be fair, Scout's main use here is being another non-terminal unique. I doubt it would be worth it if not for that. The major part of its role in the deck could just as easily have been played by Ruined Village.

I mean, looking at the log, Scout gets played a grand total of two times. The first time, it switches around a Vault and a Catacombs, which helps there, but I don't think the Vault should have been in the deck in the first place. Had that been another Catacombs, there would have been no effect. The second time, it puts two green cards in hand that I also think should not have been in the deck; a HoP deck doesn't want to green before the megaturn.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2016, 10:58:17 am by faust »
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Seprix

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Re: It Finally Happened: A Game Where Scout Was Good
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2016, 10:55:57 am »
+1

According to Faust, Ruined Village is better than Scout. And I cannot disagree.
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Haddock

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Re: It Finally Happened: A Game Where Scout Was Good
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2016, 11:00:05 am »
+1

I mean, to be fair, Scout's main use here is being another non-terminal unique. I doubt it would be worth it if not for that. The major part of its role in the deck could just as easily have been played by Ruined Village.
It KINDA works as two non-terminal uniques, since without it Ironworks would eventually become terminal or even entirely unplayable.  But this really only strengthens your point.

According to Faust, Ruined Village is better than Scout. And I cannot disagree.
::)
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The best reason to lynch Haddock is the meltdown we get to witness on the wagon runup. I mean, we should totally wagon him every day just for the lulz.

M Town Wins-Losses (6-2, 75%): 71, 72, 76, 81, 83, 87 - 79, 82.  M Scum Wins-Losses (2-1, 67%): 80, 101 - 70.
RMM Town Wins-Losses (0-1, 0%): x - 31.  RMM Scum Wins-Losses (3-3, 50%): 33, 37, 43 - 29, 32, 35.
Modded: M75, M84, RMM38.     Mislynched (M-RMM): None - None.     Correctly lynched (M-RMM): 101 - 33, 33, 35.       MVPs: RMM37, M87

Seprix

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Re: It Finally Happened: A Game Where Scout Was Good
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2016, 11:36:23 am »
+3

Ruined Village is strictly better than Scout.
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Witherweaver

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Re: It Finally Happened: A Game Where Scout Was Good
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2016, 11:37:32 am »
+7

I mean, to be fair, Scout's main use here is being another non-terminal unique. I doubt it would be worth it if not for that. The major part of its role in the deck could just as easily have been played by Ruined Village.

I mean, looking at the log, Scout gets played a grand total of two times. The first time, it switches around a Vault and a Catacombs, which helps there, but I don't think the Vault should have been in the deck in the first place. Had that been another Catacombs, there would have been no effect. The second time, it puts two green cards in hand that I also think should not have been in the deck; a HoP deck doesn't want to green before the megaturn.

Hi my name is Faust and I'm not fun at parties.
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Burning Skull

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Re: It Finally Happened: A Game Where Scout Was Good
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2016, 11:41:37 am »
+2

First Scout gain was way too late here, should have started on them after one or maybe two Villages.

Haddock

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Re: It Finally Happened: A Game Where Scout Was Good
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2016, 11:45:26 am »
0

Ruined Village is strictly better than Scout.
::)
Now you've said it twice I'm less certain that you're joking.
But you have to be.

I'm not missing anything here, right? Ruined village might be the one single card in creation which is worse than Scout.
Well, Curse.
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The best reason to lynch Haddock is the meltdown we get to witness on the wagon runup. I mean, we should totally wagon him every day just for the lulz.

M Town Wins-Losses (6-2, 75%): 71, 72, 76, 81, 83, 87 - 79, 82.  M Scum Wins-Losses (2-1, 67%): 80, 101 - 70.
RMM Town Wins-Losses (0-1, 0%): x - 31.  RMM Scum Wins-Losses (3-3, 50%): 33, 37, 43 - 29, 32, 35.
Modded: M75, M84, RMM38.     Mislynched (M-RMM): None - None.     Correctly lynched (M-RMM): 101 - 33, 33, 35.       MVPs: RMM37, M87

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Re: It Finally Happened: A Game Where Scout Was Good
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2016, 11:46:38 am »
0

First Scout gain was way too late here, should have started on them after one or maybe two Villages.

Should've opened Messenger/Scout
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Re: It Finally Happened: A Game Where Scout Was Good
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2016, 11:48:30 am »
0

First Scout gain was way too late here, should have started on them after one or maybe two Villages.

Should've opened Messenger/Scout
It's like Cursing your opponent, only passive-aggressively!
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The best reason to lynch Haddock is the meltdown we get to witness on the wagon runup. I mean, we should totally wagon him every day just for the lulz.

M Town Wins-Losses (6-2, 75%): 71, 72, 76, 81, 83, 87 - 79, 82.  M Scum Wins-Losses (2-1, 67%): 80, 101 - 70.
RMM Town Wins-Losses (0-1, 0%): x - 31.  RMM Scum Wins-Losses (3-3, 50%): 33, 37, 43 - 29, 32, 35.
Modded: M75, M84, RMM38.     Mislynched (M-RMM): None - None.     Correctly lynched (M-RMM): 101 - 33, 33, 35.       MVPs: RMM37, M87

Seprix

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Re: It Finally Happened: A Game Where Scout Was Good
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2016, 11:49:28 am »
0

Ruined Village is strictly better than Scout.
::)
Now you've said it twice I'm less certain that you're joking.
But you have to be.

I'm not missing anything here, right? Ruined village might be the one single card in creation which is worse than Scout.
Well, Curse.

I would rather have a Curse and a Ruined Village in my deck than a single Scout. I think I would win more games that way. I'm not spending $4 on something that is basically as good as Ruined Village.
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Awaclus

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Re: It Finally Happened: A Game Where Scout Was Good
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2016, 11:51:33 am »
+7

So this is yet another case of all four Scout conditions (potentially drawing green cards, benefiting from the reordering, benefiting from a non-terminal Action whose name is Scout, and being able to gain it with no opportunity cost) being true and Scout being just slightly better than nothing. It's pretty much what I've been saying for 9 months already and I even wrote an article on the subject.

I would rather have a Curse and a Ruined Village in my deck than a single Scout.

No you wouldn't.

Haddock

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Re: It Finally Happened: A Game Where Scout Was Good
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2016, 11:56:04 am »
+1

I would rather have a Curse and a Ruined Village in my deck than a single Scout.

No you wouldn't.
Well, that's more concise than what I was gonna post.  Summarises it nicely too.  The effort you put into concisifying your posts has never been plainer.
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The best reason to lynch Haddock is the meltdown we get to witness on the wagon runup. I mean, we should totally wagon him every day just for the lulz.

M Town Wins-Losses (6-2, 75%): 71, 72, 76, 81, 83, 87 - 79, 82.  M Scum Wins-Losses (2-1, 67%): 80, 101 - 70.
RMM Town Wins-Losses (0-1, 0%): x - 31.  RMM Scum Wins-Losses (3-3, 50%): 33, 37, 43 - 29, 32, 35.
Modded: M75, M84, RMM38.     Mislynched (M-RMM): None - None.     Correctly lynched (M-RMM): 101 - 33, 33, 35.       MVPs: RMM37, M87

LaLight

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Re: It Finally Happened: A Game Where Scout Was Good
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2016, 11:58:44 am »
0

So this is yet another case of all four Scout conditions (potentially drawing green cards, benefiting from the reordering, benefiting from a non-terminal Action whose name is Scout, and being able to gain it with no opportunity cost) being true and Scout being just slightly better than nothing. It's pretty much what I've been saying for 9 months already and I even wrote an article on the subject.

I would rather have a Curse and a Ruined Village in my deck than a single Scout.

No you wouldn't.

Edge case: Gardens
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Wow where is all this LaLight love coming from all of the sudden?

Wins: M87, M85, M92, M99, RMM37, RMM39, RMM44, BM24, M86, M94, M95, M100, ZM24
Losses: M88, M90, RMM38, NM8, NM9, M97, ZM23, NM10
Draws: RMM40
Lynched: M95, NM10
MVPs: RMM39, RMM44
Mod/Co-mod: RMM37, M89, M93, M91, M96, RMM41, M98, M101, M102, M104

faust

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Re: It Finally Happened: A Game Where Scout Was Good
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2016, 12:37:05 pm »
+2

Well, Curse.
Curse at least has Defiled Shrine going for it.
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

Robz888

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Re: It Finally Happened: A Game Where Scout Was Good
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2016, 01:16:29 pm »
0

I mean, to be fair, Scout's main use here is being another non-terminal unique. I doubt it would be worth it if not for that. The major part of its role in the deck could just as easily have been played by Ruined Village.

I mean, looking at the log, Scout gets played a grand total of two times. The first time, it switches around a Vault and a Catacombs, which helps there, but I don't think the Vault should have been in the deck in the first place. Had that been another Catacombs, there would have been no effect. The second time, it puts two green cards in hand that I also think should not have been in the deck; a HoP deck doesn't want to green before the megaturn.

You missed my most pivotal play of Scout: my turn 11. I use it to re-order my deck so my Plaza can draw Catacombs.

And I had to green before the megaturn to prevent my opponent from piling out.
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Seprix

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Re: It Finally Happened: A Game Where Scout Was Good
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2016, 01:19:10 pm »
0

So this is yet another case of all four Scout conditions (potentially drawing green cards, benefiting from the reordering, benefiting from a non-terminal Action whose name is Scout, and being able to gain it with no opportunity cost) being true and Scout being just slightly better than nothing. It's pretty much what I've been saying for 9 months already and I even wrote an article on the subject.

I would rather have a Curse and a Ruined Village in my deck than a single Scout.

No you wouldn't.

Yes I would. The win rate would be higher for getting Curse + Ruined Village than for just having Scout.
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Awaclus

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Re: It Finally Happened: A Game Where Scout Was Good
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2016, 01:26:17 pm »
0

Yes I would. The win rate would be higher for getting Curse + Ruined Village than for just having Scout.

Have you considered the fact that both Curse and Ruined Village are individually worse than Scout?

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Re: It Finally Happened: A Game Where Scout Was Good
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2016, 01:26:52 pm »
+1

I would rather have a Curse and a Ruined Village in my deck than a single Scout.
No you wouldn't.
Yes I would. The win rate would be higher for getting Curse + Ruined Village than for just having Scout.

There are some things which there are real arguments in favor of. This is not one of those things.

As an added bonus, I know that you know that. We have enough objectively wrong statements about Dominion on this forum at the moment - no need to contribute.

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Re: It Finally Happened: A Game Where Scout Was Good
« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2016, 01:33:46 pm »
0

Is Pirate Ship relevant here?  No way to quickly get rid of Coppers, could get lucky and hit a precious HoP, and it would provide money in an otherwise low-economy deck.  I want to say no, but I'd be tempted to try it.
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