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Author Topic: Taking Debt as part of an Action  (Read 3943 times)

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market squire

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Taking Debt as part of an Action
« on: September 07, 2016, 03:21:12 pm »
+3

I have not played with Debt yet, but I was wondering why there is no Action that uses Debt to give you a benefit on-play. Like, Hamlet with gaining <$> instead of discarding cards. What do you think why? Uninteresting? Or maybe players would be able to take too much Debt?

Let's give it a try. Some ideas:

Trading Village (Action) $2
+2 Actions
+1 Buy
You may take 1 Debt, if you do: +1 Card.

Investment (Action) $5
+5 Cards
Take 3 Debt.

Pawnshop (Action) $4
Trash a card from your hand. If you have no Debt, gain a card costing up to $4 more than it. For each $1 that it costs more take 1 Debt.

Freelancer (Action-Reaction) 4 Debt
+2 Cards
Discard up to 2 Dept.

When another player plays an Attack, you may reveal this from your hand and take 1 Dept. If you do, you are not affected by the Attack.


Feel free to criticize and to add other ideas.
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Taking Debt as part of an Action
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2016, 03:26:03 pm »
+1

Have you seen Asper's scientist?
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market squire

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Re: Taking Debt as part of an Action
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2016, 03:33:16 pm »
+1

No, but now i did.  ;) So it should be generally possible.
Still it is an interesting problem. Maybe there could be golden decks where you wouldn't care about having dept?
For Pawnshop I added the no-Dept condition for that reason...
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tristan

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Re: Taking Debt as part of an Action
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2016, 04:44:24 pm »
+2

Trading Village seems fine.

I have the very same card as Investment and found it to be balanced at 4$.

Pawnshop looks like an interesting Remodel variant.
Remodel allows you to remodel Remodels into Golds and Golds into Province. So Pawnshop could pawnshop Pawnshops into Provinces for 4D in the endgame so a massive Pawnshop strategy might be broken. This is why I would consider giving it a Debt Cost, 4 or 5.

I like Freelancer for the novel "discard Debt" and the "take Debt to moat" idea.
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market squire

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Re: Taking Debt as part of an Action
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2016, 06:37:34 pm »
0

I have the very same card as Investment and found it to be balanced at 4$.

Oh, that surprises me. I compared it to Embassy. Okay, you can discard dead cards to Embassy, but this one actually increases the handsize more than Hunting Grounds!

Quote
Pawnshop looks like an interesting Remodel variant.
Remodel allows you to remodel Remodels into Golds and Golds into Province. So Pawnshop could pawnshop Pawnshops into Provinces for 4D in the endgame so a massive Pawnshop strategy might be broken. This is why I would consider giving it a Debt Cost, 4 or 5.

First I had it more like Butcher, but then thought it might be funny to have that effect you are talking of (whith the debt restriction).
If it is an issue, maybe it could also cost $3 whithout Debt? I consider it to be rather weak economy-wise.
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tristan

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Re: Taking Debt as part of an Action
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2016, 07:10:55 pm »
+1

I have the very same card as Investment and found it to be balanced at 4$.

Oh, that surprises me. I compared it to Embassy. Okay, you can discard dead cards to Embassy, but this one actually increases the handsize more than Hunting Grounds!
Discarding cards hurts on average more than taking a Debt. Cards like Embassy and Vault enable you to green fairly early whereas Investment does not.
OK, you probably don't wanna start with Embassy but Vault is fine in any 2/5 opening whereas Investment is something you don't want early.
Of course it is situationally brilliant (probably Colony games) but I played it with Smithy as direct comparison and Smithy was often the better choice.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Taking Debt as part of an Action
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2016, 07:22:58 pm »
+1

Discarding cards hurts on average more than taking a Debt.

Wouldn't this indicate that Investment is stronger than Embassy?
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tristan

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Re: Taking Debt as part of an Action
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2016, 07:42:54 pm »
0

Discarding cards hurts on average more than taking a Debt.

Wouldn't this indicate that Investment is stronger than Embassy?
That was obvious nonsense which I wrote. Discarding hurts less as you can discard Victory cards and junk.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Taking Debt as part of an Action
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2016, 08:06:22 pm »
+1

Discarding cards hurts on average more than taking a Debt.

Wouldn't this indicate that Investment is stronger than Embassy?
That was obvious nonsense which I wrote. Discarding hurts less as you can discard Victory cards and junk.

Well, depends how strong your deck is, how much junk you have and how many of them you want to play.
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trivialknot

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Re: Taking Debt as part of an Action
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2016, 08:26:58 pm »
+2

Pawnshop (Action) $4
Trash a card from your hand. If you have no Debt, gain a card costing up to $4 more than it. For each $1 that it costs more take 1 Debt.
Pawnshop lets you trash copper and gain nothing--but only if you have debt.  Was that intentional?  Seems interesting, although weaker than Salvager.

I really like the idea of a strong engine piece that gives you debt.  In a standard engine, you try to draw your deck and then you stuff it with payoff, but now you need payoff just to keep your engine afloat.  In a way, Storyteller already fills this role, but there's obviously more design-space remaining.
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tristan

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Re: Taking Debt as part of an Action
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2016, 09:11:52 pm »
+1

Discarding cards hurts on average more than taking a Debt.

Wouldn't this indicate that Investment is stronger than Embassy?
That was obvious nonsense which I wrote. Discarding hurts less as you can discard Victory cards and junk.

Well, depends how strong your deck is, how much junk you have and how many of them you want to play.
Sure. But on average (actually: most often) a massive terminal draw prefers discarding cards to taking debt.


I really like the idea of a strong engine piece that gives you debt.  In a standard engine, you try to draw your deck and then you stuff it with payoff, but now you need payoff just to keep your engine afloat.  In a way, Storyteller already fills this role, but there's obviously more design-space remaining.
There are already several fan cards which transform coins (to be more precise, potentially not yet existing coins via Debt) into cards. Investment/Armada as well as my Waterfall, a semi-permaduration debt->card converter, and Asper's Scientist which is to Waterfall as Lab is to Hireling.
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Limetime

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Re: Taking Debt as part of an Action
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2016, 09:44:06 pm »
+2

Embassy is better in bm than investment. But in a engine it isn't even close.
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tristan

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Re: Taking Debt as part of an Action
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2016, 10:15:56 pm »
0

Embassy is better in bm than investment. But in a engine it isn't even close.
I never play an "engine" or "big money". I play decks with different Action and Treasure card densities. Sorry, but I just hate these terms as they ignore everything between those two extremes.
Embassy is also good in games with junking / no trashing. You can e.g. play with many Action cards but rely on that Embassy for terminal draw. As you haven't trashed you can discard Coppers and Estates with it even during the middlegame.
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Limetime

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Re: Taking Debt as part of an Action
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2016, 01:07:30 am »
0

Embassy is better in bm than investment. But in a engine it isn't even close.
I never play an "engine" or "big money". I play decks with different Action and Treasure card densities. Sorry, but I just hate these terms as they ignore everything between those two extremes.
Embassy is also good in games with junking / no trashing. You can e.g. play with many Action cards but rely on that Embassy for terminal draw. As you haven't trashed you can discard Coppers and Estates with it even during the middlegame.
If i want to draw my deck investment is very good at this. If  I don't care about drawing five cards and would rather discard I like embassy. Engine likes investment. Other decks probably prefer Embassy.
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tristan

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Re: Taking Debt as part of an Action
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2016, 08:42:17 am »
0

Embassy is better in bm than investment. But in a engine it isn't even close.
I never play an "engine" or "big money". I play decks with different Action and Treasure card densities. Sorry, but I just hate these terms as they ignore everything between those two extremes.
Embassy is also good in games with junking / no trashing. You can e.g. play with many Action cards but rely on that Embassy for terminal draw. As you haven't trashed you can discard Coppers and Estates with it even during the middlegame.
If i want to draw my deck investment is very good at this. If  I don't care about drawing five cards and would rather discard I like embassy. Engine likes investment. Other decks probably prefer Embassy.
If you think that Dominion is so one-dimensional on the "BM"-"engine" axis and that other game elements like junking or whatever don't matter that's your prerogative.
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Asper

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Re: Taking Debt as part of an Action
« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2016, 09:54:57 am »
+1

I think taking Debt as the downside of a card is fine. With Scientist, i was originally worried you'd maybe trash all your treasures and then have debt and no way of paying it back, but by now i think that's unrealistic. Not even Possession can do that to you, now.

Whether Debt is better or worse than discarding a card depends on the phase of the game. At the beginning, it's worse, as your coin density is below $1. In the middle of the game, it's better. In the endgame, it goes down again. Generally, Debt is worse the worse your deck is, while sifting may help in that situation. I tend to say you are generally better off taking debt.

Here's my other Debt-taking card, by the way:

Investor, $4, Action
Take 3 Debt.
Take 3 coin tokens.

Your Investment goes in a similar direction as my Scientist. Scientist should probably cost more, and Investment might need to do that, too. It compares well to Embassy once your deck got good.

Generally, taking Debt on choice seems okay. I like taking debt as a way to defend yourself, but of course that's not much better than getting hit by Cutpurse normally.

Not sure what i think about Pawnshop, but it's probably fine. Might also be a little too strong. I mean, Estate to Gold for $4, and Gold to Province for $2, that's rather fast. Cool idea, though, maybe i totally misjudge its power.

market squire

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Re: Taking Debt as part of an Action
« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2016, 10:15:36 am »
+1

Pawnshop (Action) $4
Trash a card from your hand. If you have no Debt, gain a card costing up to $4 more than it. For each $1 that it costs more take 1 Debt.
Pawnshop lets you trash copper and gain nothing--but only if you have debt.  Was that intentional?  Seems interesting, although weaker than Salvager.

Yes, when I added the Debt condition I thought that could be a nice feature. But it'll be a bit hard to pull of, normally you'd need to play Pawnshop twice in the same turn to do it. Maybe it isn't worth the extra complexity and should rather be:
"If you have no Debt, trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing up to $4 more than it. For each $1 that it costs more take 1 Debt."
Or this:
"Trash a card from your hand. If you have no Debt, take up to 4 Debt. In any case, gain a card with a cost of up to the cost of the trashed card plus the number of Debt tokens you gained."
(So you could only use it as a self-Swindler if you had Debt.)
After what Asper said, I am considering to make it only up to 3 Debt, but I'm uncertain as well.

Discarding cards hurts on average more than taking a Debt.

Wouldn't this indicate that Investment is stronger than Embassy?
That was obvious nonsense which I wrote. Discarding hurts less as you can discard Victory cards and junk.

Well, depends how strong your deck is, how much junk you have and how many of them you want to play.
Sure. But on average (actually: most often) a massive terminal draw prefers discarding cards to taking debt.


I really like the idea of a strong engine piece that gives you debt.  In a standard engine, you try to draw your deck and then you stuff it with payoff, but now you need payoff just to keep your engine afloat.  In a way, Storyteller already fills this role, but there's obviously more design-space remaining.
There are already several fan cards which transform coins (to be more precise, potentially not yet existing coins via Debt) into cards. Investment/Armada as well as my Waterfall, a semi-permaduration debt->card converter, and Asper's Scientist which is to Waterfall as Lab is to Hireling.

Thanks for the links, I also found your Armada.
Maybe the best comparison card is Envoy? Investment can be thought of an Envoy that lets you discard a Gold.

But I'd rather keep the higher price point, I'd like it to feel more like a big deal, like Council Room. So maybe only giving 2 Debt?
(Okay after what Asper said, I don't know anymore... should be tested.)


On Freelancer:
I just realized that it is in most cases worse than Moat. I have to think about it some more to make it more interesting.


Here's my other Debt-taking card, by the way:

Investor, $4, Action
Take 3 Debt.
Take 3 coin tokens.
I like that. It gives you the option to retain some of your midgame economy for when the decks get bad.
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Asper

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Re: Taking Debt as part of an Action
« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2016, 11:54:57 am »
+2

Quote
Investment (Action) $5
+5 Cards
Take 3 Debt.

This is a tad worse than Embassy at the beginning, so it seems to be okay for $5 at first glance. Assuming you play Embassy turn 3 (and nobody else got one, nor did you get another opening card), the worst you can do after drawing 5 and discarding 3 is $6. Assuming, however, that you play Investment turn 3, the best you can get are still 2 Estates in a 9-card hand, which leaves you with $7 minus <3> Debt, which is only $4. You can get to $5 if you opened with a Copper and got lucky, or you can get unlucky and draw all 3 of your Estates, ending up with $3.

The real catch however is that it's much better than Embassy in the presence of trashing and as soon as you get decent cards. Assuming the avarage coin density of your deck was $1, they are equal. That isn't the case in a built deck, normally. Only really heavy greening or junking could get your deck into a situation where Investment was worse than Embassy. However, unlike Embassy, Investment doesn't help you build your deck. It will probably be much stronger in any Engine, though.

Asper

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Re: Taking Debt as part of an Action
« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2016, 12:40:33 pm »
+1

No, but now i did.  ;) So it should be generally possible.
Still it is an interesting problem. Maybe there could be golden decks where you wouldn't care about having dept?
For Pawnshop I added the no-Dept condition for that reason...

Pawnshop needs that clause because it's a gainer. I think as long as having Debt keeps you from getting points, you are save. It seems problematic to have a gainer, cost reducer or VP-card with debt, for example, as you can just keep on taking Debt and VP and hope to win this way, possibly locking each player in a state where the game can't be won. Same with a gainer, especially if it can gain enough cards to end the game on a win on its own - again, you'd just not care about buying cards, anymore. A cost reducer is just a way to make this happen in combination with a normal gainer.

tristan

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Re: Taking Debt as part of an Action
« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2016, 02:18:45 pm »
0

Thanks for the links, I also found your Armada.
Maybe the best comparison card is Envoy? Investment can be thought of an Envoy that lets you discard a Gold.
Yeah, a little bit proud that I did stuff that is now an obvious fan card design path (although there are slight mechanical differences and as usual novel ideas were not accepted by the rule lawyer fraction on this board :D).
Envoy is also a good comparison. When I first got it thought it was crazy and far stronger than Smithy until playing experience showed its downsides. Similar with Armada/Investment. I also feared that it is too strong but it turned out to be perfectly fine for 4.
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Asper

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Re: Taking Debt as part of an Action
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2016, 02:37:30 pm »
+1

Thanks for the links, I also found your Armada.
Maybe the best comparison card is Envoy? Investment can be thought of an Envoy that lets you discard a Gold.
Yeah, a little bit proud that I did stuff that is now an obvious fan card design path (although there are slight mechanical differences and as usual novel ideas were not accepted by the rule lawyer fraction on this board :D).
Envoy is also a good comparison. When I first got it thought it was crazy and far stronger than Smithy until playing experience showed its downsides. Similar with Armada/Investment. I also feared that it is too strong but it turned out to be perfectly fine for 4.

The rules lawyers commented on the fact that your card caused the player to have negative coins, which becomes very weird with e.g. Storyteller and Poor House. Debt doesn't cause that problem. One of the suggestions back then was to use the -$1 token, the only thing coming close to debt back then.

Also, the idea to have players pay money for effects exists at least since Donald X pointed out in his Prosperity outtakes that he had the idea to have cards pay money for something. There were not that many fan cards that did it because there was no good way to implement it, and well, you basically just insisted that the way you had suggested was good enough back then. Now there's an actually decent way to implement what has conceptually been around since years.

tristan

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Re: Taking Debt as part of an Action
« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2016, 02:51:21 pm »
0

Thanks for the links, I also found your Armada.
Maybe the best comparison card is Envoy? Investment can be thought of an Envoy that lets you discard a Gold.
Yeah, a little bit proud that I did stuff that is now an obvious fan card design path (although there are slight mechanical differences and as usual novel ideas were not accepted by the rule lawyer fraction on this board :D).
Envoy is also a good comparison. When I first got it thought it was crazy and far stronger than Smithy until playing experience showed its downsides. Similar with Armada/Investment. I also feared that it is too strong but it turned out to be perfectly fine for 4.

The rules lawyers commented on the fact that your card caused the player to have negative coins, which becomes very weird with e.g. Storyteller and Poor House.
Never said that it was perfect but ever since that day I couldn't give less of a crap about folks who don't think about the viability of a general idea first.
I play the card with Debt now and am perfectly happy with it. Of course it is slightly weaker as before you could never reach negative coins at the end of your turn (with a floor being at 0) but still balanced at 4.

Also, your Scientist is an non-perma-duration  straight Action version of my Waterfall.
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Asper

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Re: Taking Debt as part of an Action
« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2016, 04:05:31 pm »
+1

Thanks for the links, I also found your Armada.
Maybe the best comparison card is Envoy? Investment can be thought of an Envoy that lets you discard a Gold.
Yeah, a little bit proud that I did stuff that is now an obvious fan card design path (although there are slight mechanical differences and as usual novel ideas were not accepted by the rule lawyer fraction on this board :D).
Envoy is also a good comparison. When I first got it thought it was crazy and far stronger than Smithy until playing experience showed its downsides. Similar with Armada/Investment. I also feared that it is too strong but it turned out to be perfectly fine for 4.

The rules lawyers commented on the fact that your card caused the player to have negative coins, which becomes very weird with e.g. Storyteller and Poor House.
Never said that it was perfect but ever since that day I couldn't give less of a crap about folks who don't think about the viability of a general idea first.
I play the card with Debt now and am perfectly happy with it. Of course it is slightly weaker as before you could never reach negative coins at the end of your turn (with a floor being at 0) but still balanced at 4.

Also, your Scientist is an non-perma-duration  straight Action version of my Waterfall.

People didn't comment on the general idea because there was nothing wrong with it. People don't just say "Wow, what a great general idea." - at least that rarely happens, and only if you are lucky and somebody thinks it's very original. People will, however, point out flaws in an implementation. There was nothing wrong with the general idea, and as i pointed out, it was there for a while. My Scientist is a variant of that general idea which exists since Prosperity, implemented by the new means we now have. And so are market squire's ideas. Neither is a rip-off of your critizised implementation of that accepted idea.

tristan

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Re: Taking Debt as part of an Action
« Reply #23 on: September 08, 2016, 04:58:36 pm »
+1

Thanks for the links, I also found your Armada.
Maybe the best comparison card is Envoy? Investment can be thought of an Envoy that lets you discard a Gold.
Yeah, a little bit proud that I did stuff that is now an obvious fan card design path (although there are slight mechanical differences and as usual novel ideas were not accepted by the rule lawyer fraction on this board :D).
Envoy is also a good comparison. When I first got it thought it was crazy and far stronger than Smithy until playing experience showed its downsides. Similar with Armada/Investment. I also feared that it is too strong but it turned out to be perfectly fine for 4.

The rules lawyers commented on the fact that your card caused the player to have negative coins, which becomes very weird with e.g. Storyteller and Poor House.
Never said that it was perfect but ever since that day I couldn't give less of a crap about folks who don't think about the viability of a general idea first.
I play the card with Debt now and am perfectly happy with it. Of course it is slightly weaker as before you could never reach negative coins at the end of your turn (with a floor being at 0) but still balanced at 4.

Also, your Scientist is an non-perma-duration  straight Action version of my Waterfall.
People don't just say "Wow, what a great general idea." - at least that rarely happens, and only if you are lucky and somebody thinks it's very original.
I do. In this very thread market squire has come up with some novel ideas around Debt. Even if they are not all perfect yet they are great.
Of course this all depends on whether you strive for a finished fan card or an exchange about ideas that can materialize not just in a specific card posted but also influence other fan cards.
One example for novel concepts that are mroe about ideas in flux than finished fan cards are your Spellcaster cards which have been influences by wavile's medallions.
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Re: Taking Debt as part of an Action
« Reply #24 on: September 08, 2016, 05:58:40 pm »
+1

Thanks for the links, I also found your Armada.
Maybe the best comparison card is Envoy? Investment can be thought of an Envoy that lets you discard a Gold.
Yeah, a little bit proud that I did stuff that is now an obvious fan card design path (although there are slight mechanical differences and as usual novel ideas were not accepted by the rule lawyer fraction on this board :D).
Envoy is also a good comparison. When I first got it thought it was crazy and far stronger than Smithy until playing experience showed its downsides. Similar with Armada/Investment. I also feared that it is too strong but it turned out to be perfectly fine for 4.

The rules lawyers commented on the fact that your card caused the player to have negative coins, which becomes very weird with e.g. Storyteller and Poor House.
Never said that it was perfect but ever since that day I couldn't give less of a crap about folks who don't think about the viability of a general idea first.
I play the card with Debt now and am perfectly happy with it. Of course it is slightly weaker as before you could never reach negative coins at the end of your turn (with a floor being at 0) but still balanced at 4.

Also, your Scientist is an non-perma-duration  straight Action version of my Waterfall.
People don't just say "Wow, what a great general idea." - at least that rarely happens, and only if you are lucky and somebody thinks it's very original.
I do. In this very thread market squire has come up with some novel ideas around Debt. Even if they are not all perfect yet they are great.
Of course this all depends on whether you strive for a finished fan card or an exchange about ideas that can materialize not just in a specific card posted but also influence other fan cards.
One example for novel concepts that are mroe about ideas in flux than finished fan cards are your Spellcaster cards which have been influences by wavile's medallions.

Hum, i guess that's part of positive critizism, but sadly, i'm not really good at that - see my Empires rants. In Bavaria, there's a (half-humorous) saying that can roughly be translated to "Lack of complaints is praise.", and given i'm relatively negative, it often describes me. So, for example, the fact that i don't say anything negative about market squire's cards basically means i think they are awesome.
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