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[faust]

And the threads just Keep on coming...

Okay, let's face it, that first bunch of Landmarks did not really stir excitement. But now, in the bottom half, things really got interesting. Defiled Shrine, Fountain, now Keep - all those are much more unique than the tenth "get 2 VP for some random thing". Good news is, the remaining Landmarks are all more on the exciting side.

This is like a little sub-game of Dominion - in Dominion, you aim to get more Provinces than your opponent, and now there's a bunch of other cards you aim to get more of than your opponent. And these piles are pretty large, man.

It makes controlling the game state pretty hard. It's easy-ish to calculate how many VP your opponent is away from you, but now you also have to Keep in mind how many Golds, Silvers, Coppers they are away. It only gets worse with Kingdom treasures, and this is one of the only Empires card-shaped thing where Kingdom treasures didn't get excluded because nobody knows what a Kingdom card is, so yay for that.

This card probably won't affect BM games a lot, except that it makes them more viable. Things are more interesting in an engine mirror, which might devolve into a more BM-ish deck in the mid-late game. Oh, and if you ever thought losing the Fool's Gold or IGG split sucked: You knew nothing.

- Which Kingdom treasure cards do you think will be most interesting with this? Hoard, Horn of Plenty, maybe even Treasure Trove?
- How does engine vs BM play with this around? Does the engine player try to win one of the splits while ignoring the other two?
- Is this Landmark better suited for multiplayer?

[Chris is me]

Five VP is enormous. Every Kingdom Treasure becomes viable here.

Even bottom tier shit like Counterfeit and Loan you may find yourself scrambling to load up on during the last turns of the game, since those are somewhat safer ways to get VP. Silver flooding becomes really dominant in a mirror (ten more Silvers than your opponent and you undo an 8 province lead...).

The real challenge with this card though is making an engine work with the dozens of Treasure cards you're stuffing into it. Maybe you don't. Or I mean there's Storyteller.

Edit: All of this post is terrible, why did I even make it, ignore it.

[singletee]

Five VP is enormous. Every Kingdom Treasure becomes viable here.

Even bottom tier shit like Counterfeit and Loan you may find yourself scrambling to load up on during the last turns of the game, since those are somewhat safer ways to get VP. Silver flooding becomes really dominant in a mirror (ten more Silvers than your opponent and you undo an 8 province lead...).

The real challenge with this card though is making an engine work with the dozens of Treasure cards you're stuffing into it. Maybe you don't. Or I mean there's Storyteller.

I don't think it works like this. When I played with this there were 5 VP up for grabs for each named Treasure. So 5 VP for the most Golds, 5 VP for the most Silvers, etc. Even so we were doing hilarious things like Ironworksing Coppers.

Also,

Even bottom tier shit like Counterfeit

? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

[LaLight]

Five VP is enormous. Every Kingdom Treasure becomes viable here.

Even bottom tier shit like Counterfeit and Loan you may find yourself scrambling to load up on during the last turns of the game, since those are somewhat safer ways to get VP. Silver flooding becomes really dominant in a mirror (ten more Silvers than your opponent and you undo an 8 province lead...).

The real challenge with this card though is making an engine work with the dozens of Treasure cards you're stuffing into it. Maybe you don't. Or I mean there's Storyteller.

I don't think it works like this. When I played with this there were 5 VP up for grabs for each named Treasure. So 5 VP for the most Golds, 5 VP for the most Silvers, etc. Even so we were doing hilarious things like Ironworksing Coppers.

Also,

Even bottom tier shit like Counterfeit

? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

I think he meant contraband

[GendoIkari]

(ten more Silvers than your opponent and you undo an 8 province lead...).

Yeah you're really misreading the card... "differently named treasure". All your Silvers combined are worth at most 5 vp, NOT 5 vp each!

[ConMan]

Black Market becomes even more of a slot machine if Keep is in play and there are a few Treasures in the BM deck.

[mameluke]

Black Market is also amusing with Museum.

If Wolf Den is around, not sure you want to buy Black Market at all (although let's discuss this when the time comes)

[Davio]

Talisman with no viable targets, well, you could get more Talismans or Silvers of course. 

[ThetaSigma12]

I love the art. Keep up the good work!

[Davio]

Mountebank: Nah, I won't discard that Curse, give me all the Coppers, please!

Also silverfloods which have previously been questionable become better.
Raid becomes a serious event.

[JThorne]

Black Market becomes even more of a slot machine if Keep is in play and there are a few Treasures in the BM deck.

I mostly play Dominion IRL, and I have every expansion and every promo and have sleeved and alphabetized my entire collection and placed it in an aluminum locking briefcase with padded interior. I love this game.

But I won't buy Black Market. It's permanently blacklisted from my collection. The setup/breakdown is insane, abuse and random shenanigans is pretty much assured, and the rules errata is as long as my arm. It's one of the few bad ideas in all of Dominion.

Then again, I have a friend who hasn't even finished his Dominion collection and Black Market was one of the first things he bought online after the base set.

[drsteelhammer]

So this is atleast 15VP in a match, and it's very likely to be even more. If it's an engine and only the basic treasures are out, it should be okay to kinda ignore it? It will be possible to win maybe the Gold one anyway to kinda mitigate Keep points.

If there are more treasures, this becomes a bit ridiculous. I've never played a deck that just consists of lots of different treasures, it'll be hard to determine when you want to give up control of the deck to flood it with yellows.

Treasures that end up in the trash become very hard to play right most likely, thing as HoP or CF since destroying treasures has never been that much of an issue before points wise.

Also, I'm very much looking forward to weird pileouts happening all the time, where you net up tp 10VP by emptying a treasure pile as a third pile.

[mameluke]

Even trashing treasures becomes odd. Remodel a Gold into a Province? Depending on how things stand, that might only be a net gain of 1 VP.

Mine is interesting -- it might be the right play to Mine a Gold into a Copper.

[Chris is me]

Black Market becomes even more of a slot machine if Keep is in play and there are a few Treasures in the BM deck.

I mostly play Dominion IRL, and I have every expansion and every promo and have sleeved and alphabetized my entire collection and placed it in an aluminum locking briefcase with padded interior. I love this game.

But I won't buy Black Market. It's permanently blacklisted from my collection. The setup/breakdown is insane, abuse and random shenanigans is pretty much assured, and the rules errata is as long as my arm. It's one of the few bad ideas in all of Dominion.

Then again, I have a friend who hasn't even finished his Dominion collection and Black Market was one of the first things he bought online after the base set.

I understand not wanting to play with it physically, but online in 2P it really is just fine. For every game that's a race to get the one or two key BM cards, there's a half dozen where it is a balanced if unpredictable way to pick up some engine components to help you out. It's really much better and more fair than I ever expected it to be.

Yeah also sorry for the super wrong post earlier.

[AdrianHealey]

A houserule that says 'black market buys don't count' isn't that radical.

Also: it's easy to create a balanced black market. No need to follow the real black market rules, imo.

[faust]

I just realized that this is one of the very few things in Dominion that makes you want to get more than one Potion.

[mameluke]

I just realized that this is one of the very few things in Dominion that makes you want to get more than one Potion.

Yikes. I don't know, sometimes you need to concede the 5 VP if it gets too ridiculous; you'll just be adding more stop cards to your deck. I mean, who wants to pick up 6 Loans? 6 Contrabands? (though, I suppose even if you play 2 or 3 Contrabands, there will be enough treasures to buy still that your opponent can't ban all of them). Hah, this Landmark is ridiculous.

[Davio]

A houserule that says 'black market buys don't count' isn't that radical.

Also: it's easy to create a balanced black market. No need to follow the real black market rules, imo.

There's a reason Black Market is a promo.

We're just used to it because we play online, but I don't actually own a physical copy.

[faust]

I just realized that this is one of the very few things in Dominion that makes you want to get more than one Potion.

Yikes. I don't know, sometimes you need to concede the 5 VP if it gets too ridiculous; you'll just be adding more stop cards to your deck. I mean, who wants to pick up 6 Loans? 6 Contrabands? (though, I suppose even if you play 2 or 3 Contrabands, there will be enough treasures to buy still that your opponent can't ban all of them). Hah, this Landmark is ridiculous.

Well, better to add 5VP by buying a stop card for $4 than adding 3VP by buying a stop card for $5 (aka Duchy).

I actually think that there will be a couple of games where you run out "useless" Kingdom treasure piles, especially if there's no fast way to end the game.

[Jimmmmm]

I just realized that this is one of the very few things in Dominion that makes you want to get more than one Potion.

Isn't it fairly common to get a second Potion for Vineyards or Alchemists?

[McGarnacle]

I think this might be the most interesting Landmark we've seen. It really changes the game, but I think in a good way (a lot like Dark Ages). Also, it means card counting becomes harder and more important.

[mameluke]

I just realized that this is one of the very few things in Dominion that makes you want to get more than one Potion.

Yikes. I don't know, sometimes you need to concede the 5 VP if it gets too ridiculous; you'll just be adding more stop cards to your deck. I mean, who wants to pick up 6 Loans? 6 Contrabands? (though, I suppose even if you play 2 or 3 Contrabands, there will be enough treasures to buy still that your opponent can't ban all of them). Hah, this Landmark is ridiculous.

Well, better to add 5VP by buying a stop card for $4 than adding 3VP by buying a stop card for $5 (aka Duchy).

I actually think that there will be a couple of games where you run out "useless" Kingdom treasure piles, especially if there's no fast way to end the game.

Yes, but a Duchy is a guaranteed 3 VP for $5. You very well could buy 4 Potions and they will count for nothing, especially if the Potion card itself is a dud.

[faust]

I just realized that this is one of the very few things in Dominion that makes you want to get more than one Potion.

Isn't it fairly common to get a second Potion for Vineyards or Alchemists?

Vineyards yes, Alchemists I think very rarely.

[faust]

I just realized that this is one of the very few things in Dominion that makes you want to get more than one Potion.

Yikes. I don't know, sometimes you need to concede the 5 VP if it gets too ridiculous; you'll just be adding more stop cards to your deck. I mean, who wants to pick up 6 Loans? 6 Contrabands? (though, I suppose even if you play 2 or 3 Contrabands, there will be enough treasures to buy still that your opponent can't ban all of them). Hah, this Landmark is ridiculous.

Well, better to add 5VP by buying a stop card for $4 than adding 3VP by buying a stop card for $5 (aka Duchy).

I actually think that there will be a couple of games where you run out "useless" Kingdom treasure piles, especially if there's no fast way to end the game.

Yes, but a Duchy is a guaranteed 3 VP for $5. You very well could buy 4 Potions and they will count for nothing, especially if the Potion card itself is a dud.

I don't think it really works that way. Consider this: You and your opponent both have the 0 VP, and 0 Potions.

Scenario 1:
You buy a Potion, get a 5 VP lead.
Your opponent buys a Potion, also getting 5 VP. Now you have the same amount of VP again.
You buy a Potion. This gives you no VP, but makes your opponent lose 5. You end up with a 5 VP lead.
Your opponent buys 2 Potions. You lose 5 VP, and your opponent gets 5. They now have a 5VP lead.
Result: You have 0 VP, your opponent has 5.

Scenario 2: (the same with Duchies)
You buy a Duchy, get a 3 VP lead.
Your opponent buys a Duchy, also getting 3 VP. Now you have the same amount of VP again.
You buy a Duchy. This gives you 3 VP. You end up with a 3 VP lead.
Your opponent buys 2 Duchies. They get 6 VP. They now have a 3 VP lead.
Result: You have 6 VP, your opponent has 9.

In scenario 2, you end up with more VP, but it doesn't matter because all that matters is the VP swing from each buy. And each Potion provides a 5 VP swing, while the Duchy only gives 3 VP.

Disclaimer: In multiplayer, things get more complicated.

[mameluke]

No, that only makes sense if the only source of VP is one set of Treasures, or the Duchies, which is never the case.

I don't know how often the 'basic' treasures will run out in Keep games, but there are what, 16 Potions? You need 9 to clinch the 5 VP, or $36. This is kind of ridiculous. Will you spend that much just to insure your opponent doesn't get the VP? Even if you get close, there's a potential that you buy 7 Potions and get 0 VP out of it, which is a total waste of time (might as well try to end the game on Provinces if your opponent is wasting time buying Potions). Easier is to look at something like Loan, which you will never want to play if you're trying to contest Coppers or whatever. You'll need 6 to clinch the 5 VP, or $18. This isn't so bad, but still plenty expensive. Now, of course if your opponent only buys one Loan and you buy none, you are giving away a free 5 VP, but this seems like a dangerous and expensive game of chicken to get into.

The comparison with the Duchies is simply that losing the Duchy split is still going to get you VP, and you can make up the difference somewhere else -- if you're going for say, the most Golds for an extra 5 VP, you're likely to be able to buy Provinces AND Golds, which will make up that VP difference from the player who decides to buy a bunch of Potions (and otherwise can't buy green cards)