Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Jacob marley]

Kingdom:

[img width=159.0]http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/2/2e/Save.jpg[/img]

Code: [Select]

Save, Cutpurse, Tournament, Bazaar, Library, Rogue, Soothsayer, Upgrade, Hireling, Hunting Grounds, Possession
Log:  http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160830/log.0.1472531054947.txt

In this game, my opponent beats me to followers, but I get the next two prizes, Trusty Steed and Princess, and go on to win handily.  Although my opponent opened tournament, I felt I could wait until I was closer to province and went for Cutpurse instead.  I'm not sure which is better.

[Chris is me]

I vastly prefer opening Cutpurse to opening Tournament here. Tournament isn't a bad opening by any means but if you can create early economy through some other card that also attacks the opponent, it's often better to open with that. Cutpurse / Silver here.

The presence of Save on this board means once you have 1 Tournament and 1 Province there's really no excuse for those cards not lining up within a shuffle of each other.

Upgrade is definitely the first $5, and I would consider buying it over Gold (though there is a strong enough argument for Gold here with the need to spike Province). Would Soothsayer fit into this somehow, even with the easy trashing, as a way to generate some economy and hopefully spike $8 with those Golds? Maybe. Not sure though.

There is a really big engine here, albeit with expensive components, but for it to make sense you have to get extra gains. Princess is the best way to do this, followed by playing several Possessions in a turn (but maybe you never get to that point, there probably isn't time for it).

[Seprix]

Why would anyone go for the crazy engine? Possession is on the board.

[Awaclus]

Why would anyone go for the crazy engine? Possession is on the board.

Your post was a bit difficult to follow, so I reformatted it to make it more obvious what you meant:

Q: Why would anyone go for the crazy engine?
A: Possession is on the board.

Anyway, as usual, the most important Prize here is Princess. If you don't manage to get Princess, your best bet is probably using Possession as your payload. Going for Followers before Princess is an enormous mistake.

[Seprix]

No, it was a rhetorical question. Why would anybody go for the mega engine when Possession is on the board?

[Awaclus]

No, it was a rhetorical question. Why would anybody go for the mega engine when Possession is on the board?

Possession is a reason to go for an engine. It's an engine payload card.

[Deadlock39]

You go for the mega engine to use it to play tons of Possessions... Possession and Princess are the only extra gains here. 

Followers is not important here because there is strong draw and one of the best trashers in the game. Princess gets you something the Kingdom (sort of) does not have, which makes it important. Bazaar is also important since it is the only Village. (other than Steed)

[McGarnacle]

Anyway, as usual, the most important Prize here is Princess. If you don't manage to get Princess, your best bet is probably using Possession as your payload. Going for Followers before Princess is an enormous mistake.

What do you mean "as usual"? Princess is rarely the best prize.

[Limetime]

I wouldn't say as usual but those three prizes are pretty much the same in value on average.

[Awaclus]

Anyway, as usual, the most important Prize here is Princess. If you don't manage to get Princess, your best bet is probably using Possession as your payload. Going for Followers before Princess is an enormous mistake.

What do you mean "as usual"? Princess is rarely the best prize.

You are mistaken. It is, in fact, usually the best Prize.

[McGarnacle]

Anyway, as usual, the most important Prize here is Princess. If you don't manage to get Princess, your best bet is probably using Possession as your payload. Going for Followers before Princess is an enormous mistake.

What do you mean "as usual"? Princess is rarely the best prize.

You are mistaken. It is, in fact, usually the best Prize.

It's considered third best by Qvist Rankings. I would put it at second, with TS ans Followers tied for first.

[Awaclus]

It's considered third best by Qvist Rankings. I would put it at second, with TS ans Followers tied for first.

The Qvist rankings are fun, but not very useful for practical purposes since a lot of people vote in them while only a small percentage of the voters are high level players.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I'm trying to work out how the possession mirror plays out here, but right now I'm feeling you want to skip tournament entirely. Pretty much the only prize that's going to help you more than your opponent is Trusty Steed, and I feel like if don't go straight for possession your opponent is more likely to grab it from under you by playing your tournament than you are to get it yourself.

If your opponent skips possession you just go for it and roll over them.

[McGarnacle]

It's considered third best by Qvist Rankings. I would put it at second, with TS ans Followers tied for first.

The Qvist rankings are fun, but not very useful for practical purposes since a lot of people vote in them while only a small percentage of the voters are high level players.

Agreed. Why doesn't someone design a ranking where only high-level players can vote?

[Jacob marley]

I'm trying to work out how the possession mirror plays out here, but right now I'm feeling you want to skip tournament entirely. Pretty much the only prize that's going to help you more than your opponent is Trusty Steed, and I feel like if don't go straight for possession your opponent is more likely to grab it from under you by playing your tournament than you are to get it yourself.

If your opponent skips possession you just go for it and roll over them.

But how likely is it that the other player skips possession once you go for it.  In this game, neither of us went there, but I feel that if I (or they) had done so, it would probably have touched off an arms race.  Since I was ahead in provinces early, and soon racking up duchies with tournaments after the good prizes were gone, I never had incentive to open that can of worms.

[Dingan]

It's considered third best by Qvist Rankings. I would put it at second, with TS ans Followers tied for first.

The Qvist rankings are fun, but not very useful for practical purposes since a lot of people vote in them while only a small percentage of the voters are high level players.

Agreed. Why doesn't someone design a ranking where only high-level players can vote?

What does it even matter?  I don't know what Prize is best to get first on this board, but I know that it doesn't depend on the Qvist Prize rankings.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I'm trying to work out how the possession mirror plays out here, but right now I'm feeling you want to skip tournament entirely. Pretty much the only prize that's going to help you more than your opponent is Trusty Steed, and I feel like if don't go straight for possession your opponent is more likely to grab it from under you by playing your tournament than you are to get it yourself.

If your opponent skips possession you just go for it and roll over them.

But how likely is it that the other player skips possession once you go for it.  In this game, neither of us went there, but I feel that if I (or they) had done so, it would probably have touched off an arms race.  Since I was ahead in provinces early, and soon racking up duchies with tournaments after the good prizes were gone, I never had incentive to open that can of worms.

I think a well played possession-based strategy beats any strategy that skips it, so I'm considering the case w where both players go for it, and in the case I think detouring for prizes is a mistake

[Chris is me]

I'm trying to work out how the possession mirror plays out here, but right now I'm feeling you want to skip tournament entirely. Pretty much the only prize that's going to help you more than your opponent is Trusty Steed, and I feel like if don't go straight for possession your opponent is more likely to grab it from under you by playing your tournament than you are to get it yourself.

If your opponent skips possession you just go for it and roll over them.

But how likely is it that the other player skips possession once you go for it.  In this game, neither of us went there, but I feel that if I (or they) had done so, it would probably have touched off an arms race.  Since I was ahead in provinces early, and soon racking up duchies with tournaments after the good prizes were gone, I never had incentive to open that can of worms.

I think a well played possession-based strategy beats any strategy that skips it, so I'm considering the case w where both players go for it, and in the case I think detouring for prizes is a mistake

I don't think there is a lot of opportunity cost to going for it, though. If you're doing a "draw your deck and play a bunch of Possessions" engine, you'll probably have a $4 turn at some point you can use for Tournament, and then it'll be pretty easy to connect the two. Followers seems like it helps you more than your opponent, because he would attack himself if he Possessed you (and he would gain both cards!). Princess could be too good though.

[Kirian]

Nothing is an auto-lose.

[Awaclus]

Agreed. Why doesn't someone design a ranking where only high-level players can vote?

Because high-level players can post and you can read their posts.

[Chris is me]

It's considered third best by Qvist Rankings. I would put it at second, with TS ans Followers tied for first.

The Qvist rankings are fun, but not very useful for practical purposes since a lot of people vote in them while only a small percentage of the voters are high level players.

Agreed. Why doesn't someone design a ranking where only high-level players can vote?

The rankings are already weighted by Isotropish ranking. I think it's reasonable for everyone to have at least a small say. The better you are, the more weight your vote carries.

The rankings aren't a measure of power, though they correlate with that - they're a measure of perception of power, which is useful both as an approximation of true power and a gauge on what the greater Dominion community thinks.

[Qvist]

While Princess might have the most powerful effect, it's not very often the first price you get (unless it's so important to deny it from your opponent e.g. because it's the only +Buy on the board). This is because at the time you are getting your first prize you are mostly still building and don't need payload yet. Both Trusty Steed (village and draw) and Followers (draw and hurting your opponent) are very important in that phase. Princess doesn't help you draw, just adds payload. Mostly you get Trusty Steed first because it increases the chances of getting another prize next turn the most. So I think power level != most important to get first. People might rate differently on those rankings because of that.

[funkdoc]

i feel like princess is the best prize the most often, but steed is the 2nd best prize the most often.  and you often have to pick up steed just because you have another terminal in your hand, even if it won't be the best option in the long run.  avoiding 1 dead turn is a pretty huge deal in this game!

[Roadrunner7671]

No one has said it yet? We already knew missing Followers wasn't an auto loss. No one even gets Followers because Tournament is so lame

[A Drowned Kernel]

I'm trying to work out how the possession mirror plays out here, but right now I'm feeling you want to skip tournament entirely. Pretty much the only prize that's going to help you more than your opponent is Trusty Steed, and I feel like if don't go straight for possession your opponent is more likely to grab it from under you by playing your tournament than you are to get it yourself.

If your opponent skips possession you just go for it and roll over them.

But how likely is it that the other player skips possession once you go for it.  In this game, neither of us went there, but I feel that if I (or they) had done so, it would probably have touched off an arms race.  Since I was ahead in provinces early, and soon racking up duchies with tournaments after the good prizes were gone, I never had incentive to open that can of worms.

I think a well played possession-based strategy beats any strategy that skips it, so I'm considering the case w where both players go for it, and in the case I think detouring for prizes is a mistake

I don't think there is a lot of opportunity cost to going for it, though. If you're doing a "draw your deck and play a bunch of Possessions" engine, you'll probably have a $4 turn at some point you can use for Tournament, and then it'll be pretty easy to connect the two. Followers seems like it helps you more than your opponent, because he would attack himself if he Possessed you (and he would gain both cards!). Princess could be too good though.

I'm thinking of things in terms of pile control, which is what's going to be the deciding factor in a Possession engine mirror since gains are at such a premium. If each player is playing 4+ Possessions on their turn, then I want Princess to be in my opponent's deck, not mine. Follower's attack also probably isn't worth it since it would make it so easy for my opponent to pile estates with a string of Possession turns. Basically the only Prize you want is Trusty Steed and I don't think it's worth falling even a little bit behind on the Possession race to get it, especially since having a tournament and a Province in your deck gives your opponent a way to get a bunch of Duchies all at once.