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Author Topic: A more difficult simulation?  (Read 1480 times)

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DG

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A more difficult simulation?
« on: January 30, 2012, 09:23:26 am »
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Bazaar, Bridge, Caravan, Cellar, Explorer, Harvest, Loan, Market, Shanty Town, Treasury.

This set came up in the championship and it's a little tricky to play. It's also a little tricky to simulate. If anyone wants to have have a go they might find out some new simulator tricks but it might need a fair time investment to get some of the better decks working. There are a number of pitfalls. 4/3 start.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2012, 11:14:40 am by DG »
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WanderingWinder

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Re: A more difficult simulation?
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2012, 09:40:04 am »
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As I said at the time, I think something like BM + Bridge +either some treasuries of bazaars or markets on 5 (not sure which is best) is going to be strongest.
The other option is opening loan, buying I think no other treasure (maybe golds), getting bridges AND bazaars AND caravans (and shanty towns?) and going for big turns. But I don't see that as being fast enough.

greatexpectations

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Re: A more difficult simulation?
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2012, 10:09:59 am »
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man, this a board where i would kill for a quarry. 

with a 5/2, explorer/cellar with a couple of caravans could be nice for a more BM type solution. 

i think harvest has the potential to be really useful here if you were going to go with the loan/cantrip route. unless you were aiming for a bridge type mega turn, you should be able to get 3/4$ from it regularly and you should have actions to spare.
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Geronimoo

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Re: A more difficult simulation?
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2012, 07:49:01 am »
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Pretty cool board! Here's my take on the Bridge mega turn deck. It's been tuned a little bit (Caravan buys). But Shanty Town is giving me headaches. I didn't include Markets or Treasuries, but doubt they would help much to achieve the mega turn.

Code: [Select]
<player name="Bridge deck"
 author="Geronimoo"
 description="http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1614.0">
 <type name="Province"/>
 <type name="Combo"/>
 <type name="Engine"/>
 <type name="UserCreated"/>
 <type name="Bot"/>
 <type name="TwoPlayer"/>
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInPlay" attribute="Bridge"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="3.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="gainsNeededToEndGame"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="3.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="gainsNeededToEndGame"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Bridge">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Bridge"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Bazaar"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Caravan">
      <condition>
         <left type="countAvailableMoney"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="6.0"/>
      </condition>
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInPlay" attribute="Bridge"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="1.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Caravan">
      <condition>
         <left type="countAvailableMoney"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
      </condition>
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInPlay" attribute="Bridge"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Bazaar">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Caravan"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="3.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Caravan"/>
   <buy name="Loan">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Loan"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="1.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Silver">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Silver"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Cellar">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Cellar"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Shanty_Town"/>
</player>
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RisingJaguar

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Re: A more difficult simulation?
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2012, 03:47:33 pm »
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If going for the big turn, as many caravans as possible is important as its the only source of "+cards" to increase the amount of potential bridges to play in a turn.  Shanty Towns could be, but there's probably a need to have Bazaars > bridges for it to be effective (rather have it as a lab then a non-drawing village of course). 

The hard thing to adjust for is when to unleash this amount because once it buys 3-4 provinces, it really struggles to gain any other provinces.  Thus its important to unleash only when it end the game.  Although if you buy a cellar, it may be able to alleviate buying 3, and then 2 or something of that sort. 

Also, early $5 (T3/T4) probably needs to be treasury.  Only because $3 here is SO bad (one shanty isn't so bad, as long as you priortize bazzars = bridges +1 and have cellars, but that's a couple ifs). 

The bigger the turn your building to, ie. trying to finish the game.  Markets are more and more important.  They allow you to get free duchies whenever you decide to finish (so 3/5 provinces is easily winnable).  Not really sure how to priortize this all, but i think this has a legit chance to beat bridges/BM.  Also depends how invested bridges/BM will be towards caravans. 

Edit: Here's a sample try.  I also only grab 5 caravans to assume 5/5 split.  I could've dipped in T14, but waited another turn to ensure all duchies.  How to simulate, that's out of my realm though. 

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201201/31/game-20120131-125320-aa91169f.html
« Last Edit: January 31, 2012, 04:31:25 pm by RisingJaguar »
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Geronimoo

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Re: A more difficult simulation?
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2012, 04:05:23 am »
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The mirror match is certainly going to be about 3-piling which is just murder to simulate (I think). Markets do seem to become important to get the free Duchies, but when do you buy them?
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DG

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Re: A more difficult simulation?
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2012, 06:58:25 am »
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I wouldn't worry about trying to manage the three pile ending with bridges. It will take too much time, and simulations can take a lot of time already.
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DG

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Re: A more difficult simulation?
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2012, 12:14:18 pm »
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I'll add a bit more comment but leave this open for anyone who wants to revisit it and post a script.

The most effective money deck seems to be the explorer, caravan, market deck suggested by greatexpectations. There are stronger bridge decks as suggested by Geronimoo and RisingJaguar but they are difficult to play and more difficult to script. It is possible to improve further. I'll list some pitfalls for anyone else who wants to try this in future.


How do you maintain spending while the loan is trashing copper?
How can you avoid the loan trashing nothing? (which is quite possible).
Can you avoid an early silver to let a loan work better?
Can shanty towns be managed or will they clog up hands?
How do the cellar discard rules in the simulator affect scripts?
Early treasuries can help get regular spend of 5 or 6 coins but are they better than markets or bazaars?
Harvests in a caravan/loan deck will typically be played as the last action. What would be the state of the draw deck?
When can you time an explorer purchase and will the simulator be able to get explorers and provinces together in hand?
How do you get your script to compete on key cards against a similar script?
Does the script over purchase key cards and fail against treasure based scripts?
Can you manage multiple purchases with bridges in play?
How can you trigger province buying for a bridge deck without going too soon or too late?
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