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Author Topic: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Battlefield  (Read 5962 times)

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faust

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Let's Discuss Landmarks: Battlefield
« on: August 29, 2016, 01:49:00 pm »
0


Why are all the guys with shields not in the front row?

In terms of epicness, this battle is sorely lacking. It's more like you and your D&D buddies encountering some random bandits than a clash of armies to control the first Province. Anyway, the card encourages early greening and makes Rebuild games even more atrocious. Now you're like, am I really going to give my opponent a Duchy for this $5 card I just swindled? It does a bunch of interesting stuff because unlike some other "take 2 VP" landmarks, you have pretty good control over when to take them.

Some interactions are quite weird. Swindler was mentioned, but Ambassador has a similar issue. I can't really imagine deciding not to ambassador your Estates because that seems bad too, but there's definitely some impact. Obivously it's pretty good with hybrid VP cards and Inheritance, plus all that stuff that makes you gain Estates.

- Would you buy an Estate over nothing on a 5/2 Shelters opening with this around?
- Which deck type benefits the most? Probably the rush deck, but after this?
- Does Battlefield change the optimal ultimate big money strategy?
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Battlefield
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2016, 01:51:18 pm »
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In a Shelters game you always buy an Estate over nothing on a 5/2
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Battlefield
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2016, 02:32:41 pm »
+2

In a Shelters game you always buy an Estate over nothing on a 5/2
You might do that. I, on the other hand, prefer trying to win.
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Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Battlefield
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2016, 02:34:40 pm »
+5

In a Shelters game you always buy an Estate over nothing on a 5/2
You might do that. I, on the other hand, prefer trying to win.

Buying Estate on a 5/2 Shelters board is far less skippable than people think. ;)
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Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Battlefield
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2016, 05:33:11 pm »
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In a Shelters game you always buy an Estate over nothing on a 5/2
You might do that. I, on the other hand, prefer trying to win.

Buying Estate on a 5/2 Shelters board is far less skippable than people think. ;)
With more Alt-VP that costs less than $5, estates are more skippable then they used to be.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Battlefield
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2016, 05:33:38 pm »
+2

In a Shelters game you always buy an Estate over nothing on a 5/2
You might do that. I, on the other hand, prefer trying to win.

What's wrong with exchaning an hovel for an estate?
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Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Battlefield
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2016, 05:43:41 pm »
+1

In a Shelters game you always buy an Estate over nothing on a 5/2
You might do that. I, on the other hand, prefer trying to win.

What's wrong with exchaning an hovel for an estate?

There have been articles on this topic, and it's pretty clear. But the point is that Battlefield changes that.

AdrianHealey

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Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Battlefield
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2016, 05:54:20 pm »
+3

In a Shelters game you always buy an Estate over nothing on a 5/2
You might do that. I, on the other hand, prefer trying to win.

What's wrong with exchaning an hovel for an estate?

There have been articles on this topic, and it's pretty clear. But the point is that Battlefield changes that.
If someone asks a question, answering with 'it's pretty clear' is usually not helpful. I do like the article part: where?

Battlefield says: you can open $5/Duchy* seems solid enough. (Except when trash for benefit counts.)
« Last Edit: August 29, 2016, 05:55:24 pm by AdrianHealey »
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drsteelhammer

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Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Battlefield
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2016, 06:02:56 pm »
+5

In a Shelters game you always buy an Estate over nothing on a 5/2
You might do that. I, on the other hand, prefer trying to win.

What's wrong with exchaning an hovel for an estate?

There have been articles on this topic, and it's pretty clear. But the point is that Battlefield changes that.
If someone asks a question, answering with 'it's pretty clear' is usually not helpful. I do like the article part: where?

Battlefield says: you can open $5/Duchy* seems solid enough. (Except when trash for benefit counts.)

tl,dr: If you have no way of getting rid of the hovel besides buying a green card, it's much more efficient to keep it around until you'll buy a victory card you actually want.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Battlefield
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2016, 06:05:10 pm »
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So you might want an estate if tfb is around anyway.
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Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Battlefield
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2016, 06:07:04 pm »
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yes if you can make use of the estate, obviously go for it.
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Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Battlefield
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2016, 04:00:14 am »
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The trade off between having a useless card in your deck most of the game versus having an Estate in your deck the entire game is more favorable to the latter case in 74.57* instances. See this article for further details: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16136.new#new
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Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Battlefield
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2016, 07:21:01 am »
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It's one of the Landmarks I like less than the others. Greening early is no fun :(

Though I love that it makes opening Island more attractive, but that's about it.
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Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Battlefield
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2016, 07:50:10 am »
+1

The trade off between having a useless card in your deck most of the game versus having an Estate in your deck the entire game is more favorable to the latter case in 74.57* instances. See this article for further details: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16136.new#new
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Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Battlefield
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2016, 08:38:17 am »
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Baron with an Estate in hand becomes more interesting.
Discard for $4 or keep for 3 VP.

Also trashing Hunting Grounds for 3 Estates instead of 1 Duchy is a net gain of 4 VP!
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Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Battlefield
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2016, 11:21:18 am »
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Baron with an Estate in hand becomes more interesting.
Discard for $4 or keep for 3 VP.

Also trashing Hunting Grounds for 3 Estates instead of 1 Duchy is a net gain of 4 VP!

I think usually the Battlefield will be empty before either of these becomes a viable move. The Hunting Grounds thing might be useful in some megaturn engines.
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Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Battlefield
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2016, 12:38:53 pm »
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The trade off between having a useless card in your deck most of the game versus having an Estate in your deck the entire game is more favorable to the latter case in 74.57* instances. See this article for further details: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16136.new#new
I used to believe as you did, Roadrunner, but now I have seen the light.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8231.msg247594#msg247594
No! You're wrong! Because you can't draw a Hovel with a Scout, but you can draw an Estate!
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trivialknot

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Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Battlefield
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2016, 06:13:56 pm »
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I've previously said that Mountain Pass isn't the only landmark that sets up an auction, that Aqueduct sets one up too.  Continuing along those lines, Battlefield is also an auction, although it's more subtle.

The question, "How early do you go for those Battlefield VP?" is analogous to the question, "How much do you bid on Mountain Pass?"  If you bid too low, I can win by bidding just a bit higher than you (that is, I green a few turns earlier than you, receiving 4-8 more VP).  If you bid too high, I let you fill your deck with junk, and then win.  If we bid about the same, we split the VP.

This also applies to most other 6VP-per-player landmarks.
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faust

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Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Battlefield
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2016, 06:44:41 pm »
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The question, "How early do you go for those Battlefield VP?" is analogous to the question, "How much do you bid on Mountain Pass?"  If you bid too low, I can win by bidding just a bit higher than you (that is, I green a few turns earlier than you, receiving 4-8 more VP).  If you bid too high, I let you fill your deck with junk, and then win.  If we bid about the same, we split the VP.

I don't know how far this bidding analogy really works. By the same reasoning I might argue that when to buy the first Province in a normal game is also a form of bidding, and soon we arrive at a point where bidding doesn't really mean anything anymore, since every single decision is some kind of bid.
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trivialknot

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Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Battlefield
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2016, 07:03:03 pm »
+1

The question, "How early do you go for those Battlefield VP?" is analogous to the question, "How much do you bid on Mountain Pass?"  If you bid too low, I can win by bidding just a bit higher than you (that is, I green a few turns earlier than you, receiving 4-8 more VP).  If you bid too high, I let you fill your deck with junk, and then win.  If we bid about the same, we split the VP.

I don't know how far this bidding analogy really works. By the same reasoning I might argue that when to buy the first Province in a normal game is also a form of bidding, and soon we arrive at a point where bidding doesn't really mean anything anymore, since every single decision is some kind of bid.
Alas, the point about provinces will have to wait for the Let's Discuss Basic Cards threads.
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Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Battlefield
« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2016, 02:32:46 am »
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Baron with an Estate in hand becomes more interesting.
Discard for $4 or keep for 3 VP.

Also trashing Hunting Grounds for 3 Estates instead of 1 Duchy is a net gain of 4 VP!

I think usually the Battlefield will be empty before either of these becomes a viable move. The Hunting Grounds thing might be useful in some megaturn engines.
Well, it's fun that it's at least an option so there's more incentive to choose Estates over a Duchy. :)
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