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tristan

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Dragon
« on: August 20, 2016, 02:02:24 am »
0

Dragon
Cost:
Type: Action-Attack
+2 Cards
Each other player puts a Treasure card from his hand on your Dragon mat or gains a Conflagration.
-----
Setup: Add The Dragon Slayer and the Valyria Landmarkt to the game.


Conflagration
Type: Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
-----------
When you draw this, trash an Action or Victory card (except for Conflagration) from your hand or reveal a hand with no Action or Victory cards.
If you did trash a non-Ruins Action card, gain a Ruins and put it into your hand.
(This is not in the Supply.)


Dragon Slayer
Type: Event
Cost: 0
+1 Buy
Trash a Dragon from your hand. If you do, play all Treasures from your Dragon mat and trash them.


Valyria
Type: Landmark
When scoring, play all Treasures from your Dragon mat. 4 if you have the most .



Thematically the main idea is that you can appease the Dragon if you give him some treasure and that he burns you if you don't. Mechanically this makes the card an all-around trashing attack, i.e. unlike with Thief or Pirate Ship you cannot avoid the attack via increasing your Action card density. You might even prefer feeding the Dragon your Coppers (or Silvers?!) than your good stuff.
This could be a straightforward 5$ but I think that the Debt costs are justified as you don't want this card too early, helping the opponent(s) trash their Coppers

Conflagration is meant to have a different back like Stash so that there are no "not playing honest" issues. If Conflagration is the first card you draw during your Clean-up phase it won't hurt you. It might be too strong as it triggers a lot of times during the game but at least is is a cantriŁ and unlike its first, loco incarnation it is now trashable.
Conflagration is worse than a Knight attack as it hits you later and sometimes misses. It is also better as it potentially hits several times and always hits the good stuff (unless you can "feed" it Ruins and Estates).

The Event and the Landmark are just about what to do with the Treasures on the mat. At the cost of an entire Dragon you can play and trash them once, so it is potential megaturn support. Here one problem of Dragon becomes evident, it is stronger in a 3P than in a 2P game.
You can also keep the Treasures on the map and try to win the battle for some extra VPs at the end of the game (obviously I gotta play around with the right value). Perhaps you can even do both if you go massively for Dragons.

There are some rule issues concerning Dragon Slayer as it plays Treasures right when Treasures normally couldn't be played so I wonder whether it should include a phrase like "return to the start of your Buy phase). I am also not sure about Valyria's wording. The idea is that you play the Treasures and compare who has generated the most Coins.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2016, 09:05:25 pm by tristan »
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Tables

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Re: Dragon
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2016, 08:05:47 pm »
+5

I can see a ton of potential issues here. Firstly, Dragon's wording is pretty vague. So in a 2 player game, you're basically dividing the cards on the mat by 4. In 3 player, you're dividing by 6, and so on, right? Secondly, a lot of the time Dragon is really weak. You play Dragon, great, I get to trash a copper for free, thank you. Do that a total of four times, and finally you'll be getting +$1 from your Dragon plays. But if you can play several Dragons regularly, it just completely destroys the game. After losing most of their good treasures, they're going to have to constantly trash their actions and victory cards, eventually leaving them unable to do anything, because Conflagration is completely ludicrous in its effect. The fact it costs debt also means you can get them easily, so if your opponent does anything to leave themselves vulnerable - such as the basic act of thinning out coppers, he's going to end up having a completely miserable game.

On top of that, there's the whole rules issue Conflagration's trashing rule causes. You almost always don't want to say something "cannot" be done, because it can create a ton of issues. I think the only cards that have that wording currently are things restricting buys (Grand Market and Contraband). But in this case, say I look at one with Lookout. What happens if I choose it as my card to trash? Or can I just not do that? What if I look at three of them? Now what happens when resolving Lookout? Either I have to trash one, or Lookout ends up with a card sitting in look at limbo. You almost certainly want some kind of on trash penalty instead, rather than outright banning trashing it. On top of that, its effect is far too broad, random and powerful. A card that can just randomly force players to sometimes trash a Province with no recourse, and other times just an Estate is not good. On top of that, with several Dragons you could easily fill an opponents deck with these, and unless they have a really insane engine, that's basically game over, because everything that isn't money is gonna disappear - and they probably don't have much money left because they were pushing back the Conflagrations for so long.

I would look at narrowing down the effects the card can have, so it isn't quite so broad. Pirate Ship and Torturer are probably good cards to look at for inspiration of what you could do. For example, Dragon could force players to trash a treasure from their hand, and then put one of the trashed cards onto the mat, in a manner similar to Pirate Ship tokens (alternatively, it could just collect tokens, like Pirate Ship does - or just give money if any treasure was trashed in this way with no building up or recording the treasure, which simplifies things a lot. Conflation needs a lot of changes. It could still be some kind of on-draw penalty, but make it much weaker. You're already using Debt, so how about taking 1 debt? That's probably still too much since you could get bogged down pretty heavily, so... maybe something like if you have 2 or less debt, take 1 debt. You could also make it have an on-trash penalty to take more debt (1-2 more probably). That way taking a Conflation or two isn't going to totally ruin the rest of your game - it's gonna hurt, especially if you can't trash it, but it'll be a lot more balanced.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.
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tristan

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Re: Dragon
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2016, 05:45:17 am »
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Firstly, Dragon's wording is pretty vague. So in a 2 player game, you're basically dividing the cards on the mat by 4. In 3 player, you're dividing by 6, and so on, right?
Yep. Nothing vague about division. So if anything Dragon's wording is too precise, i.e. too mathy. As the playload effect has to be significantly buffed I don't worry about smoother wording yet though.


On top of that, there's the whole rules issue Conflagration's trashing rule causes.
Which rule issue?
If you have an Action or Victory card in hand when you draw Conflagration you have to trash one; if you don't have an Action or Victory card in hand when you draw Conflagration nothing happens.


Secondly, a lot of the time Dragon is really weak. You play Dragon, great, I get to trash a copper for free, thank you. Do that a total of four times, and finally you'll be getting +$1 from your Dragon plays. But if you can play several Dragons regularly, it just completely destroys the game.
Kinda strange to say that a card is a lot of time really weak and at the same time that it complety destroys the game.

I guess what you meant to say is that, like any build-up card like Pirate Ship, its power level is obviously increasing and if that increase is too steep the card becomes problematic. I agree with that but for thematic reasons the Treasure should stay on the mat. I did consider Dragon being a semi one-shot, i.e. you can discard all the Treasures from the mat to gain an equivalent amount of coins (or simply play the Treasures once and then trash them to account for the effects of non-basic Treasure cards). Thematically problematic (why should the Dragon "spend" his hoarded treasure?) but it might work better.
I mean Pirate Ship is already quite steep, i.e. if you don't buy it in the opening in a Kingdom where it is good the two missed rounds of playing it might already be game-deciding and I definitely don't want Dragon to be so steep that players will always buy it early on.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2016, 05:47:59 am by tristan »
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Dragon
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2016, 06:37:42 am »
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On top of that, there's the whole rules issue Conflagration's trashing rule causes.
Which rule issue?
Jack Rudd plays a Swindler
...gaining $2
...Tristan reveals a Conflagration
...???
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GendoIkari

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Re: Dragon
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2016, 10:48:43 am »
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"Total coin value" Isn't a thing that exists in Dominion. What's the coin value of a Bank? Or a Fool's Gold?

"Divided by 2 and the number of players" isn't really clear... Does it mean the same as "(x / 2) / p"?

Does Conflagration have a different back, like Stash? If not, there's all sorts of accountability issues.

Suggested wording for Dragon:

"Each other player may put a Treasure card from his hand on your Dragon mat. If he/she does not, he/she gains a Conflagration."

The wording in the OP allows a player to say "I choose the treasure card option" and then "Oh, I have no treasure cards in hand, so I'm safe". Without accountability.
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tristan

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Re: Dragon
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2016, 10:53:47 am »
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On top of that, there's the whole rules issue Conflagration's trashing rule causes.
Which rule issue?
Jack Rudd plays a Swindler
...gaining $2
...Tristan reveals a Conflagration
...???
Conflagaration should probably have a price of 0.
Still not perceiving the rule issue.


Does Conflagration have a different back, like Stash?
Yep:

Conflagration is meant to have a different back like Stash so that there are no "not playing honest" issues.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2016, 10:55:43 am by tristan »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Dragon
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2016, 10:55:27 am »
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On top of that, there's the whole rules issue Conflagration's trashing rule causes.
Which rule issue?
Jack Rudd plays a Swindler
...gaining $2
...Tristan reveals a Conflagration
...???
Conflagaration should probably have a price of 0.

I don't think he was talking about the price. What do you do with the card? Swindler says to trash it. It says it can't be trashed. No matter what, you have to choose an instruction to not follow. If you go with the "can't always beats must" rule like MTG has, then what happens to the card? Nothing ever tells it to be discarded. It just sits there being revealed.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Dragon
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2016, 10:58:52 am »
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What happens when there is no deck or discardpile and someone plays swindler?
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tristan

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Re: Dragon
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2016, 10:59:34 am »
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On top of that, there's the whole rules issue Conflagration's trashing rule causes.
Which rule issue?
Jack Rudd plays a Swindler
...gaining $2
...Tristan reveals a Conflagration
...???
Conflagaration should probably have a price of 0.

I don't think he was talking about the price. What do you do with the card? Swindler says to trash it. It says it can't be trashed.
As the gaining part of Swindler is not conditional upon the trashing actually happening you simply gain a card with a price of 0. Still no rule issue.

Quote
Nothing ever tells it to be discarded. It just sits there being revealed.
No idea about which part you don't get.
When you draw the card you gotta reveal it, trash an Action or Victory card and then the game goes on.
Later you discard like any other card during the Clean-up phase.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Dragon
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2016, 11:01:36 am »
0

On top of that, there's the whole rules issue Conflagration's trashing rule causes.
Which rule issue?
Jack Rudd plays a Swindler
...gaining $2
...Tristan reveals a Conflagration
...???
Conflagaration should probably have a price of 0.

I don't think he was talking about the price. What do you do with the card? Swindler says to trash it. It says it can't be trashed.
As the gaining part of Swindler is not conditional upon the trashing actually happening you simply gain a card with a price of 0. Still no rule issue.

No, not talking about whether or not you gain another card. Asking what happens to the Conflagration card that Swindler revealed.

Quote
Quote
Nothing ever tells it to be discarded. It just sits there being revealed.
No idea about which part you don't get.
When you draw the card you gotta reveal it, trash an Action or Victory card and then the game goes on.
Later you discard like any other card during the Clean-up phase.

Not talking about what happens when you draw a Conflagration. Talking about what happens when Swindler reveals it.
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tristan

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Re: Dragon
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2016, 11:05:33 am »
0

If I tell you to jump out of the window and you say that you cannot jump out of the window life, thankfully, just goes on.

I find this very funny as you try to think like a computer program who direly wants to be caught in a causal loop instead of a common sensical human being who gets that when a card says "trash X" and card X says "I cannot be trashed" the game will not freeze but happily go on.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Dragon
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2016, 11:06:34 am »
+1

Actually, I think I'm asking the wrong question. Just checked, and Swindler doesn't reveal anything. It just trashes. So it will trash the top card of your deck. THEN, after it's been trashed, you find out that it was a Conflagration. It can't be trashed, but it just was.

The Lookout situation given in the first place is a more confusing one though. You reveal 3 Conflagrations. What do you do? You reveal 1 Conflagration and 2 Provinces, do you have to trash a Province? There's no rules in Dominion to address either of these questions. There's multiple ways you could rule on it, all equally valid.

Of course you can include new rules with the new fan cards, nothing wrong with that. But those new rules are needed.
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Re: Dragon
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2016, 11:07:49 am »
+2

I find this very funny as you try to think like a computer program who direly wants to be caught in a causal loop instead of a common sensical human being who gets that when a card says "trash X" and card X says "I cannot be trashed" the game will not freeze but happily go on.
The game can only happily go on if it knows where to put the Conflagration.

Suggested wording for Conflagration to avoid these rules issues:

"When this card would be trashed, discard it instead."
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GendoIkari

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Re: Dragon
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2016, 11:10:14 am »
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I find this very funny as you try to think like a computer program who direly wants to be caught in a causal loop instead of a common sensical human being who gets that when a card says "trash X" and card X says "I cannot be trashed" the game will not freeze but happily go on.
The game can only happily go on if it knows where to put the Conflagration.

Suggested wording for Conflagration to avoid these rules issues:

"When this card would be trashed, discard it instead."

I think that wording resolves most issues. Still unclear about how to handle Swindler, which trashes without even looking at what it's trashing.

Actually, Fortress wording should work. "When you trash this, put it in your discard pile".

Still has major accountability issues, but that's technically not a requirement, just a design principle. Throne Room, Graverobber, and a couple other cards have accountability issues in rare situations. But Conflagration has accountability issues in every situation.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2016, 11:12:05 am by GendoIkari »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Dragon
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2016, 11:21:41 am »
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Man I dunno how, but I didn't see your last paragraph of the OP until now. So Conflagration does have a different back. Great! This solves a lot of the concerns. Note that there's still accountability as to if you have any Action or Victory cards in your hand when you draw it, but that's solves with a simple "(or reveals a hand with no action or victory cards)".
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tristan

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Re: Dragon
« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2016, 11:46:50 am »
0

Thanks for the wording tips, I adapated them.

I made Conflagration weaker via making it turn non-Ruins Action cards into Ruins. That junk might hurt more than an absent Action card but on the other hand that Ruins is also "food" for the next Conflagration so it won't eat through your deck so fast.
I also got rid of the negative VP, the card is potentially too nasty anyway.

I also made Dragon evade the "buy and play it as early as possible to build it up like Pirate Ship" issue via enabling it to play and trash the Treasures on the mat at the beginning of the Buy phase. Of course the huge disadvantage of this is the scaling issue, with 3 players this is much better than with 2.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Dragon
« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2016, 11:52:05 am »
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I think the new wording is much better. Just one other thing:

"You may put any number of Treasure cards from your Dragon mat into play at the beginning of your Buy phase. "

Seems this should be

"At the start of your buy phase, you may play any number of Treasure cards from your Dragon mat." The difference being that I assume you want all the treasures with "When you play this" to actually do the things they do.
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Re: Dragon
« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2016, 01:03:54 pm »
+1

On top of that, there's the whole rules issue Conflagration's trashing rule causes.
Which rule issue?

Other people have cleared it up now, but I don't understand how you missed Tables' detailed explanation of the specific rule issue which immediately followed the sentence you quoted. The rest of the paragraph that you snipped from the quote explains the exact rules confusion with multiple examples provided.

The wording change helps, but GendoIkari's suggestion of "put it in your discard pile" is more clear than "discard it", which is currently in the OP. Since the card is in the trash and no longer belongs to you, it is unclear where it would be discarded.

One issue worth considering with Conflagration is that the different back adds shuffling accountability problems. Since you can tell where Conflagration is in your deck, you could keep shuffling until it appears where you want it (probably at the bottom?).  Stash addresses that issue by explicitly letting you push Stash wherever you want. You could do the same. Or you could rule that players shuffle with their eyes averted or something?

Hmm, I would have recommended the Stash method but that would make Conflagration much weaker. You would stack them all at the end of a shuffle, then trash Ruins or other Conflagration as you draw them. Eventually you end  up with a hand of 4 Conflagration and a Ruins (or some mix of Conflagration and random cards if the Ruins pile empties). So that doesn't really work.

Eyes averted might be the best solution, but maybe you or someone else can come up with something better.
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Re: Dragon
« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2016, 02:38:29 pm »
0

Another minor point: Conflagration explicitly gains cards from the Ruins pile, so Dragon has to be a Looter.
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Re: Dragon
« Reply #19 on: August 23, 2016, 03:09:25 pm »
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One issue worth considering with Conflagration is that the different back adds shuffling accountability problems. Since you can tell where Conflagration is in your deck, you could keep shuffling until it appears where you want it (probably at the bottom?).  Stash addresses that issue by explicitly letting you push Stash wherever you want. You could do the same. Or you could rule that players shuffle with their eyes averted or something?
I use an alternative junk card with a different back that also triggers when you draw it; naturally such cards require that you look away while shuffling to really randomize your deck. I think this is pretty obvious and doesn't require an explicit rule (although actual rule books do of course point this shuffling issue out: "Core Worlds - Revolution" comes to mind). The point of shuffling is after all that you randomize your deck.
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tristan

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Re: Dragon
« Reply #20 on: September 09, 2016, 08:52:58 pm »
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After some playing I changed the cards. Conflagration's untrashability was too good and no fun.
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Re: Dragon
« Reply #21 on: September 10, 2016, 06:24:35 am »
0

Valyria could potentially lead to rules issues with Horn of Plenty and Villa.
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Re: Dragon
« Reply #22 on: September 10, 2016, 06:35:13 am »
0

Valyria could potentially lead to rules issues with Horn of Plenty and Villa.
Also Venture, Crown, Counterfeit, Loan, mostly anything that does something else than give coin is weird.

Crown would probably technically do nothing since it is neither your action nor buy phase. Counterfeit... do you get to trash another Treasure from the mat or from your hand; do you still have a hand? Venture gets the worst because you definitely still have a deck, but by the time you score, it is usually not in random order.
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Re: Dragon
« Reply #23 on: September 10, 2016, 07:07:32 am »
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Valyria could potentially lead to rules issues with Horn of Plenty and Villa.
As the game is over you cannot gain anything if you play Horn of Plenty. And as the game is over you cannot buy Villa.
Not that it is likely that it will appear (who would buy expensive Treasures in the presence of Dragon?) but the other stuff can simply be houseruled. I'd simply forbid any hand/deck interaction with those other Treasure cards, you simply count the Coins.

What's far more crucial is the correct VP value. I have a hard time judging that.
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Re: Dragon
« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2016, 04:36:49 pm »
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Valyria could potentially lead to rules issues with Horn of Plenty and Villa.
As the game is over you cannot gain anything if you play Horn of Plenty. And as the game is over you cannot buy Villa.
Not that it is likely that it will appear (who would buy expensive Treasures in the presence of Dragon?) but the other stuff can simply be houseruled. I'd simply forbid any hand/deck interaction with those other Treasure cards, you simply count the Coins.

What's far more crucial is the correct VP value. I have a hard time judging that.

I definitely agree that you couldn't buy a card, as nothing implies that you could. But I don't see a reason to think that playing a Horn of Plenty wouldn't still cause you to gain a card, or that playing IGG wouldn't give out a curse, etc.

I think you could simplify the concept in an elegant way by just counting the number of treasures (or cards) on your dragon mat. It's probably not very common that it would result in a different outcome anyway (people will be likely to have more Coppers than anything on their mat).
« Last Edit: September 14, 2016, 11:22:28 pm by GendoIkari »
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