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### AuthorTopic: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)  (Read 26351 times)

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#### loneXolf

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##### Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #225 on: November 17, 2016, 08:52:10 am »
+1

The point of it being a peddler is to synergize with the bottom part, it increases the your deck produces and doesn't hurt because it's a cantrip, so you can handle the easier.

If we assume for now it's too good, how would you propose nefing it? Costing it at to compete more with province? Capping the / at 4?

Caping the ratio to 4 or increasing the cost to 7 both seem to make the card more balanced(for me at least). You could maybe leave it how it is and just put a downside on it, "When you buy this, you may take up to 5 Debt tokens for +1 VP each. If you take more than 3 Debt tokens put the -1 card token on top of your deck" for a example.

#### ThetaSigma12

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##### Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #226 on: November 17, 2016, 08:54:19 am »
0

The point of it being a peddler is to synergize with the bottom part, it increases the your deck produces and doesn't hurt because it's a cantrip, so you can handle the easier.

If we assume for now it's too good, how would you propose nefing it? Costing it at to compete more with province? Capping the / at 4?

Caping the ratio to 4 or increasing the cost to 7 both seem to make the card more balanced(for me at least). You could maybe leave it how it is and just put a downside on it, "When you buy this, you may take up to 5 Debt tokens for +1 VP each. If you take more than 3 Debt tokens put the -1 card token on top of your deck" for a example.
I won't change Gallery till I test it in a game or 2, but if it turns out too good then I'll lower it to . The -1 Card is interesting but it's a lot more complexity to add and there are easier ways to nerf it.
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#### loneXolf

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##### Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #227 on: November 17, 2016, 08:56:32 am »
+1

The point of it being a peddler is to synergize with the bottom part, it increases the your deck produces and doesn't hurt because it's a cantrip, so you can handle the easier.

If we assume for now it's too good, how would you propose nefing it? Costing it at to compete more with province? Capping the / at 4?

Caping the ratio to 4 or increasing the cost to 7 both seem to make the card more balanced(for me at least). You could maybe leave it how it is and just put a downside on it, "When you buy this, you may take up to 5 Debt tokens for +1 VP each. If you take more than 3 Debt tokens put the -1 card token on top of your deck" for a example.
I won't change Gallery till I test it in a game or 2, but if it turns out too good then I'll lower it to . The -1 Card is interesting but it's a lot more complexity to add and there are easier ways to nerf it.

Yeah making the ratio up to 4 was also my favorite static way to nerfing this card, the downside is more of a slight rework.

#### tristan

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##### Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #228 on: November 18, 2016, 01:40:33 am »
+1

Face value, however making it harder to get fixes it. Reasoning: "why buy a province early game when you can get this" Forcing the player to buy a 4 costed peddler is not really a big downside. In my mind 5 vp tokens on it's own is worth at least 8 coins.
Without an extra this is of course better than a Provinces early in the game when you hit 9 or 10. With 8 you gotta seriously consider whether getting a Gold is not the better choice.
Also, in a Kingdom with extra buys you will never get this; when you hit 9 or 10 you will simply buy two good cards.

So Gallery is only situationally good: high coin value, early in the game, without extra buys. Doesn't seem like a powerhouse to me, niche cards rarely are.
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#### loneXolf

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##### Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #229 on: November 18, 2016, 08:56:59 am »
+1

Face value, however making it harder to get fixes it. Reasoning: "why buy a province early game when you can get this" Forcing the player to buy a 4 costed peddler is not really a big downside. In my mind 5 vp tokens on it's own is worth at least 8 coins.
Without an extra this is of course better than a Provinces early in the game when you hit 9 or 10. With 8 you gotta seriously consider whether getting a Gold is not the better choice.
Also, in a Kingdom with extra buys you will never get this; when you hit 9 or 10 you will simply buy two good cards.

So Gallery is only situationally good: high coin value, early in the game, without extra buys. Doesn't seem like a powerhouse to me, niche cards rarely are.

Are you repeating yourself? All of your points seem the same as your last post:
Quote
I did and totally disagree with it as Gallery is simply not 7\$ -> 5 VPs but 6 Coins and 5 Debt for a Peddler and 5 VPs. That Peddler will not be particularly useful in any way for your deck so in the presence of extra buys you will most likely rather buy two 5s or a 5 and Gold or whatever.
My reasoning is that Gallery is almost always better than province when you want to start buying victory cards. Even if you are building towards the double province mega turns, you could buy gallery instead of the second province if you only have 14 coins, even if you get a solid 16 coins if you deck is not consistent or when you get over 16 coins but less than 24 I don't see a reason not to buy a Gallery.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2016, 09:06:10 am by loneXolf »
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#### ThetaSigma12

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##### Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #230 on: November 18, 2016, 09:23:16 am »
0

Gallery doesn't end the game, and it gives you less .
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#### tristan

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##### Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #231 on: November 19, 2016, 02:31:26 am »
+1

Are you repeating yourself? All of your points seem the same as your last post.
No shit Sherlock. You claim that Gallery is overpowered, I claim that it is only conditionally good.

My reasoning is that Gallery is almost always better than province when you want to start buying victory cards. Even if you are building towards the double province mega turns, you could buy gallery instead of the second province if you only have 14 coins, even if you get a solid 16 coins if you deck is not consistent or when you get over 16 coins but less than 24 I don't see a reason not to buy a Gallery.
More hogwash. First of all, if you hit 16 coins with more than one buy your deck is anything but inconsistent (and it certainly would not be improved by a Peddler). Second of all, 16 coins and two buys yield two Provinces and thus 12VPs. If you spend that on two Galleries you only get two Peddler and 4VPs.
If you hit 16 or more coins in a Province game and don't green you are making a mistake in more than 90% of the cases. Could be that 3 Labs or 2 Grand Markets and a 4 are the better choice. But it certainly doesn't make sense to spend 11 on a Peddler and 5 VPs when you have such a powerful engine that can yield 2 Provinces per turn. You only gotta play this twice to have half the Provinces!

I mean, gee, these are not subtleties which we could reasonably debate but hyperobvious stuff.

Gallery is only good if there are no extra buys and you hit a huge amount of coins or for endgame shenanigans (alternative to Duchy dancing).

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« Last Edit: November 19, 2016, 09:49:24 am by theory »
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#### ThetaSigma12

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##### Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #232 on: November 19, 2016, 06:59:52 am »
+3

Are you repeating yourself? All of your points seem the same as your last post.
No shit Sherlock.
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#### loneXolf

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##### Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #233 on: November 19, 2016, 07:54:55 am »
+1

Quote
If you spend that on two Galleries you only get two Peddler and 4VPs.
I never said buying two galleries at once is a good idea.
Quote
If you hit 16 or more coins in a Province game and don't green you are making a mistake in more than 90% of the cases. Could be that 3 Labs or 2 Grand Markets and a 4 are the better choice. But it certainly doesn't make sense to spend 11 on a Peddler and 5 VPs when you have such a powerful engine that can yield 2 Provinces per turn. You only gotta play this twice to have half the Provinces!
Okay maybe most of the time was a bit over the top, however I still think there is value getting a gallery over provinces in this type of game, Few other examples 1. If your opponent(s) deck cannot reach 16 they probably bought a few Provinces while you were building your deck so buying Galleries instead of second provinces could help slow down the game a turn or two for you to catch up, if you can't catch up with two provinces a turn against their 1. 2. Even if both you and your opponent built mega turn decks Buying Galleries instead of Provinces at certain times, can help you control the province split.

P.S It's such a pain arguing over cards you never actually played with before.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2016, 08:02:57 am by loneXolf »
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#### ThetaSigma12

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##### Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #234 on: November 19, 2016, 08:01:20 am »
0

Gallery is only good if there are no extra buys and you hit a huge amount of coins or for endgame shenanigans (alternative to Duchy dancing).
I have to dissagree with you here, and side with loneXolf. Gallery is good for greening in any engine, when you need to add concistency, not take it away. If you barely manage to hit or keep hitting Gallery is there to ad consitency without you falling way behind in .
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#### ThetaSigma12

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##### Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #235 on: January 21, 2017, 04:53:48 pm »
0

I am glad I got to work with you on civilization. My exams are over. Do you think you want to take another look at a few cards or is that a closed chapter for you?
Hmm, now that you mention it I'd like to make it more of a "set", i.e. balance out the ratio of costs and other stuff. Maybe we should split it into 2 separate 16 card sets, and I'd like to maybe add a split pile or two. I also recently reworked Escort, but I have yet to update my list of all the cards.
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#### Asper

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##### Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #236 on: May 24, 2017, 07:53:15 am »
+2

So, Cottage. Why does it cost 3\$? Let's make the obvious comparison to Hamlet:
- If you just need two Actions, Hamlet can discard the card it draws or any other card, meaning it gets you a potentially better hand of the same size as Cottage does
- If you don't need the Actions, Hamlet is without any risk, also unlike Cottage
- If the card you discard doesn't produce money, Hamlet is better. If it produces 1\$, they are about equal (you might want or not want to be able and draw the discarded card)

Cottage is better ONLY when you want to take more additional bonuses than you have cards in your hand that produce 1\$ or 0\$. In other words, Cottage can only be better if you trashed your starting deck and don't get any new junk. And really always need those actions. I'd definitely try it at 2\$ if I were you guys.
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#### ThetaSigma12

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##### Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #237 on: May 24, 2017, 07:57:34 am »
+1

That makes sense. I'll change it when I get back from vacation.
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