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Author Topic: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)  (Read 10941 times)

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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #25 on: August 14, 2016, 04:05:43 pm »
+1

Edit: Also, isn't it standard practice for vanilla bonuses not at the start of the card to be in line with the rest of the text and not centralized? Just a little nitpicky thing.

Not always. See: Oracle
Actually, the card was originally called Augur to represent the similarity. I couldn't find suitable art however, so Bladesmith it was. If I ever come across art I like then Augur it is, I don't currently like how LFN has a card named Bladesmith too.

Bladesmith is defiantly one of the more niche cards of the set. It's best purpose is as a powerful supplementary draw card, when you already have a good amount of blind draw. It's also definitely a slog card. Trashing will almost kill it's power.
You're going to change the name of a card just because you can't find a good image?  I say call it Auger. I like the name as a similar thing to Oracle.

I'd be cool for Bladesmith to get a little buff to make up for the major drawback since that was the basic premise of the card. one or the other.

Asper

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #26 on: August 14, 2016, 05:30:19 pm »
+1

I wonder - could Bladesmith just automatically discard copies of itself instead of trashing them? That might be less frustrating. I'm not sure it's necessarily stronger, even - after all, trashing them balances out the amount of Bladesmiths to a level that the deck benefits from. Just a thought.

Either way, i'm curious on this set, and it's nice to see some appreciation for Co0kie's work (and, to a lesser extend, mine).

Edit: oh, i see Archetype already suggested the discarding. Well, take this as me chiming in on that idea, then.

AdrianHealey

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #27 on: August 14, 2016, 07:06:41 pm »
+2

I think my favorite suggestion for Bladesmith was actually (sorry, haha) my own with the 'setting aside card'.

I mean, the biggest point is that it really needs to feel like 'fuck me for buying this card'. And even more so than overdrawing smithy. Merely discard, well, that's bad, but it doesn't really stop you from drawing it again and using it again. Setting it aside until the end of your turn literally takes away a very good card this turn, so the penalty is more severe, but less sucky than trashing. Everythign else on the card (price, ability, etc.) can stay very similar then. So now paying $5 for a card that is set aside is still bad, but it's not as bad as trashing a card from your own deck that costs $5.

The biggest argument for this imo is also the argument of randomness from swingeness factor from GendoIkari. Setting aside is still swingy, but not as swingy as trashing it.

What do people think of this idea?

Any other views on collection and coins? :)
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #28 on: August 14, 2016, 07:28:18 pm »
+2

I just thought of a few possible ways to make cards that go with this set's premise:
  • Have them return to your hand when played (actually not that simple, see all the trouble my Road went through)
  • Give them an "If this is the first time you play a XYZ this turn..." clause
  • Give them a non-stacking ability, like Secret Chamber's

Did i hit something there? ;)

AdrianHealey

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #29 on: August 14, 2016, 07:58:05 pm »
+1

I am trying to come up with a way that 3 could work on this particular one.

I am already going to spoil and say that variances of 2 have been used in the set. The entire point is to work actively on not having to use that particular phrasing. :D
Quote
Reveal the top 5 cards of your deck. Discard up to 3 revealed cards, putting the rest back in any order. +3 Cards
--
When you reveal a bladesmith from your deck, set it aside and discard it during your clean up phase.

This buffs the card in that it doesn't trash it, but nerfs it regarding other reveal cards.

Theta, what do you think? (This idea is inspired by NMF's thread.)

If this drawback is still too much (I don't think it is), I'd rather make the card even stronger then (increase the amount of cards you can discard, for example).

« Last Edit: August 14, 2016, 08:15:00 pm by AdrianHealey »
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faust

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #30 on: August 15, 2016, 06:27:25 am »
+1

I am trying to come up with a way that 3 could work on this particular one.

I am already going to spoil and say that variances of 2 have been used in the set. The entire point is to work actively on not having to use that particular phrasing. :D
Quote
Reveal the top 5 cards of your deck. Discard up to 3 revealed cards, putting the rest back in any order. +3 Cards
--
When you reveal a bladesmith from your deck, set it aside and discard it during your clean up phase.

This buffs the card in that it doesn't trash it, but nerfs it regarding other reveal cards.

Theta, what do you think? (This idea is inspired by NMF's thread.)

If this drawback is still too much (I don't think it is), I'd rather make the card even stronger then (increase the amount of cards you can discard, for example).

I'm not sure how Herald/Golem revealing that version of Bladesmith would work. It would certainly be confusing.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #31 on: August 15, 2016, 06:30:48 am »
+1

Well, suppose you'd had a card that said 'trsh when revealed'. Following the logic of attack cards (first reactions, than the rest), it would seem that the text on the card got priority on the card the did the revealing. What would your interpretation be?

Edit: it seems like a simple 'loose track' rule application would apply, even though it is unprecented.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2016, 06:38:09 am by AdrianHealey »
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faust

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #32 on: August 15, 2016, 06:52:29 am »
+2

Well, suppose you'd had a card that said 'trsh when revealed'. Following the logic of attack cards (first reactions, than the rest), it would seem that the text on the card got priority on the card the did the revealing. What would your interpretation be?

Edit: it seems like a simple 'loose track' rule application would apply, even though it is unprecented.

It is clear to me that it would be set aside/trashed before being played. But my question is rather, wouldn't it still be played, like how a throned Feast is still played the second time even though it's in the trash?
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

AdrianHealey

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #33 on: August 15, 2016, 06:59:06 am »
+1

Well, suppose you'd had a card that said 'trsh when revealed'. Following the logic of attack cards (first reactions, than the rest), it would seem that the text on the card got priority on the card the did the revealing. What would your interpretation be?

Edit: it seems like a simple 'loose track' rule application would apply, even though it is unprecented.

It is clear to me that it would be set aside/trashed before being played. But my question is rather, wouldn't it still be played, like how a throned Feast is still played the second time even though it's in the trash?

I have no strong views on this, I'd be fine either way in such a case. I think your interpretation makes the most sense, but I don't really know tbh.

Edit: I guess what might also work is that there are two things that try to happen at the same thing: (1) getting set aside (blacksmith) and (2) getting played (herald/golem) and the player can choose the order in which this happens. And it seems that if you do the first one first, you loose track.

Does that sound plausible?
« Last Edit: August 15, 2016, 07:14:16 am by AdrianHealey »
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #34 on: August 15, 2016, 09:16:37 am »
+1

Playing cards usually implies moving them into play, but if a card cannot be moved because of the lose-track rule, the playing itself still takes place. The Feast/TR example is spot on.

AdrianHealey

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #35 on: August 15, 2016, 10:44:53 am »
+2

Well, that solves that problem!



Do you want your friends to hate you? Because this is how you get your friends to hate you. A curser that junks curses, coppers and has an anti-self-synergy? Horrible. I mean, Dusk Villages are going to great slog games if there is no trashing. You know what sucks in a slog game? Cantrips that do nothing for you. At least regular ol' witch gives you +2 cards and mountebank is worthy a silver.

The only redeeming feature is that you get the curse and copper in your hand, so it doesn't immediately at to the onslaught that is your discard/deck (except if the other one plays a militia, than he is just a completely awful person). I mean, the copper in your hand is definitely necessary to gain some kind of purchasing power in the game. The curse is, well, like in any other game. But man, if you can survice the onslaught of curses and coppers and you can still play Dusk Villages, well, the opponent can even draw another card. So how many of these do you want? Well, it junks better than witch if you can play two in a row, but if you only have dusk villages than the amount of cards you are getting extra is zero. So what to do?

I was even thinking about giving this card the set up that you should at the Plan event to the supply. That would be cool. But it is how it is.

Either way, we have had lots of fun with it. But I can't find anyone to try it in a game with no-trashing. I wonder why. (But I don't think it's anymore sloggy than other cursers such as mountebank, cultist or regular witch.)
« Last Edit: August 15, 2016, 10:46:21 am by AdrianHealey »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #36 on: August 15, 2016, 10:50:08 am »
+2

I would suggest replacing "first" with "1st", "second" with "2nd", and "third" with "3rd". It should save you a line of text, which would be really great on such a wordy card.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #37 on: August 15, 2016, 10:52:27 am »
+3

It needs to have "this turn", see Crossroads. Unfortunately the card is really crowded and can't really fit that. LF's suggestion will help some, but it's still really crowded. Also, I didn't even see the "If this is the..." line when I first read the card due to how close it is to the vanilla bonuses. I don't know how to fix it without changing it from 3 modes of use to 2.

*Edit* Why bother gaining the curse to their hand? All it does is make the attack very slightly weaker while adding a few extra words.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2016, 10:53:38 am by GendoIkari »
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #38 on: August 15, 2016, 10:56:32 am »
+1

So, is it supposed to be lacking "this turn"? Because counting the number of Dusk Villages you played throughout the game seems like a pain, and also it's not worth $5. Of course, adding the words at three points will make the card even wordier, but really, you can't just skip those.

Argh, ninja'd...

AdrianHealey

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #39 on: August 15, 2016, 10:59:55 am »
+1

It needs to have "this turn", see Crossroads. Unfortunately the card is really crowded and can't really fit that. LF's suggestion will help some, but it's still really crowded. Also, I didn't even see the "If this is the..." line when I first read the card due to how close it is to the vanilla bonuses. I don't know how to fix it without changing it from 3 modes of use to 2.

*Edit* Why bother gaining the curse to their hand? All it does is make the attack very slightly weaker while adding a few extra words.

In a game with trashing, the difference has been noticeable. (Capability to trash immediatiately versus having to wait a turn.) It's not there for the pretty appearance. :)

And yes, 'this turn needs to be on there'. We missed that.

It also helped to remember 'when you gain stuff because of dusk village, gain it to your hand'. There were multiple times people missed putting the copper in their hand.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2016, 11:03:29 am by AdrianHealey »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #40 on: August 15, 2016, 11:01:50 am »
+4

I think I have the best wording, which fits on 5 lines of text quite well.

If you've played exactly 1 Dusk Village
this turn, each other player gains a
Curse. If you've played exactly 2, they
gain a Copper instead. If you've played
exactly 3, they instead draw a card.
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faust

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #41 on: August 15, 2016, 11:06:17 am »
+3

Wording suggestion for Dusk Village:

Count the Dusk Villages in play. If the number is...
...1, each other player gains a Curse.
...2, each other player gains a Copper.
...3, each other player draws a card.

It does some Throne Room shenanigans, but ultimately it might be worth it to save some text.

PPE: LF's suggestions seems fine too.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #42 on: August 15, 2016, 11:08:52 am »
+3

Me three! I'd word it something like this:

This turn, if you have played Dusk Village...
Once, each other player gains a Curse to their hand.
Twice, each other player gains a Copper to their hand.
Thrice, each other player draws a card.

faust

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #43 on: August 15, 2016, 11:10:30 am »
+1

I might prefer Dusk Village as a Looter - the Ruinses would be at least somewhat less bad if you already have some Villages in your deck.
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

faust

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #44 on: August 15, 2016, 11:12:06 am »
+1

Me three! I'd word it something like this:

This turn, if you have played Dusk Village...
Once, each other player gains a Curse to their hand.
Twice, each other player gains a Copper to their hand.
Thrice, each other player draws a card.
I'm not sure that works. Sutff preceeded by "this turn" sets up continuous effect, like "all cards cost $1 less". It can also be read in a way that you still count all the Dusk Villages you ever played.
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

Deadlock39

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #45 on: August 15, 2016, 11:22:17 am »
+2

Sure, you can intentionally misinterpret it.

How about "If on this turn, you have played Dusk Village..."

Edit: Also, I looked at some official cards, and my usage of "this turn" seems perfectly fine as compared to other cards that use it.  The phrase does not only apply to turn altering effects like Bridge. See Conspirator.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2016, 11:25:57 am by Deadlock39 »
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McGarnacle

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #46 on: August 15, 2016, 02:32:00 pm »
+2

Dusk Village looks really cool. I always thought a cursing village would be cool, but would have the difficulty of being too easy to spam. I think this did a good job of nullifying that problem. Maybe limiting the text would be a good idea, though.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #47 on: August 15, 2016, 02:51:19 pm »
+1

I think I have the best wording, which fits on 5 lines of text quite well.

If you've played exactly 1 Dusk Village
this turn, each other player gains a
Curse. If you've played exactly 2, they
gain a Copper instead. If you've played
exactly 3, they instead draw a card.

I just realized this wording of mine doesn't say that the cards are gained "to their hand". I probably forgot about that part because I don't think the cards should be gained to hand anyway. I saves a lot of words, too.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #48 on: August 15, 2016, 03:47:39 pm »
+1

This is almost a completely different card, but... uh it popped into my head.

Each other Player may reveal a Curse
If they don't, they gain a Curse. If they
do, they may reveal a Copper. If they
don't, they gain a Copper.
Each other player puts the top card of
their Discard Pile into their hand.

AdrianHealey

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #49 on: August 17, 2016, 02:13:05 pm »
+1

Ok, the four cards posted so far (let me refresh your memory), weren't a big splash yet.



How about an event that really is game changing?



We made it such that it's always accessible for everyone, even if you have a bad hand at some point due to shuffle luck or whatever. But man, if homecoming is in the kingdom, you really want to make sure your deck is a mirror of your opponent, but who can challenge the other to follow his or her lead? And if the opponent has a similar deck, do you dare using the event? Basically: homecoming is an open invite to play the game of chicken with your opponent.

And it can be used both for defensive as offensive purposes, which is just too good.

How would you play with this event?
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