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Author Topic: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)  (Read 11865 times)

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AdrianHealey

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Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« on: August 13, 2016, 09:24:37 pm »
+7


Greetings forum,

A while ago Roadrunner and I started working on an expansion together, we were stuck a bit, until Theta joined us and then everything went pretty quickly. So today I have the honor to present to you the beta version of a new fan expansion called 'civilization'. Most of the cards have seen sufficient playtesting to warant 'probably ok' label, but some could use some more. (Unfortunately, I don't have all the expansions yet in real life, so extensive playtesting is and will be kind of difficult.)

We welcome any and all feedback that you might have, things you think we might have missed, etc. The next post will (eventually) gather all the cards that are currently part of the set and, if any, take outs that we will redesign based on feedback on things we missed.

---

What is the theme of civilization? Well, as an economist, I view civilization as an increase in the division of labor, specialization and usage of comparative advantage. It's better if everybody has it's own role, that he/she/they are very good at and leave other things for other people. So the predominant theme of civilization fan expansion is:

- Cards with diminishing power the more you have of them. (Think chapel, not minion. Think Militia, not goons. Think moneylender, not herald. Think Soothsayer, not advisor.) Most cards in the set will be very good at what they do, but the more you play versions of them in the same turn (or even: the more versions you have in your deck), the weaker they will be. Buy a few, and move on. (This is, btw, slightly different than Cornucopia, where variety in general is rewarded. This is less so, although, I must admit, working on this expansion has created some nice respect for the design quality of cornucopia.)

- The second theme, also pretty important (but less present as the previous one) is 'interaction'. There are the obvious 'attack'-interactions, but there are also a bunch of 'non-attack' interactions during the game. Like in any good civilization, you often have to deal with people you don't like, with annoying customers, rude bartenders, boring colleagues or just straight up jerks on the street. Civilization represents this by ways to help or annoy your opponent without actually attacking them in any specific sense.

At the moment, we have 28 cards and 3 events, which is a lot. But well, designing them was and is fun. And playtesting was too. Every card presented will come with a small description, to the extend that we can, on it's history, and some typical 'let's discuss card x' questions. We welcome any and all comments. Feel free to congratulate the art work, because Theta has done a great job on it, as far as I am concerned.

We also have used several mechanics from other expansions, such as overpay, ruins, and debt. We know some people dislike it when fanexpansions do that. We have decided to not limit ourselves. Please, there is no need to repeat that old discussion, so we kindly ask to refrain from commenting on that particular design choice.

---

A small teaser on some of the cards/mechanics we use:

- There is a seasons card. (Thanks Asper & Cookielord!)
- There is card that you can overpay with debt.
- The 'flash' mechanic is used, twice! (Thanks Cookielord!)
- A card with a supply pile of 20.
- A permanent duration
- A quasi-moatable attack event
- A bunch of other things, some that are more straighforward and normal, and others that really (we think) have pushed the limits of design.

No cards are final although some cards are more final than others. Feel free to post your comments in a nice and constructive way. We have worked long on this with lots of (difficult) communication (communicating between Europe-USA is difficult enough, but we have very different live styles and are awake and productive on very different times).

We hope you like them and that at least some of them are interesting enough to want to play with.

Lastly, keep the thread civilized (haha). Some minors are watching this thread, so mind your language.


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AdrianHealey

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2016, 09:24:49 pm »
+3

Tier 1 status: (Playtested and found excellent.)



Tier 2 status: (Playtested and probably good.)



Tier 3 status: (Playtested, but still uncertain.)




Tier 4 status: Still a big question mark.


Tier 5 status: Outtakes
« Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 10:17:23 am by AdrianHealey »
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2016, 09:26:09 pm »
+2

You may have noticed that we have 3 cards that use Co0kiel0rd's Mechanics. But every card you see uses Co0kiel0rd's template. The cards would look only half as good without him. Thanks so much! While on the topic of templates, you may notice that they conform with Empires. Vanilla boni are bold and the text size is altered based on how much empty room their is. This will be the same for all cards now and in the future.
A few things not covered in the above posts:
Civilization is not desinged to be a complete set. While designing we did not try to have a balance of trashers, terminals, villages, etc.
We might go back and smooth this out later.
A minor theme is sifting, and many cards sift. Because of this Civilization is defiantly more of a sloggy set.

Adrian doesn't get a chance to log on as much as me so I'll collect the current versions of the cards here, and maybe I can get Adrian to delete the post above sometime.
Finished cards, only possible asectical updates:


Good cards, put possible changes later:

Recently changed or made, still have some big questions:


Outtakes, for whatever reason:
(Balanced, but niche)
(Balanced, but tracking nightmares)
(Balanced, but not unique)
(Balanced, but not unique)
« Last Edit: November 17, 2016, 09:01:43 am by ThetaSigma12 »
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2016, 09:38:49 pm »
+2



Bladesmith.

Man, it's like Embassy's big brother; discarding more (but doesn't discard from hand) and drawing on net more. But man, Bladesmiths really hates other bladesmiths and would kill them if he meets them. That's how much he hates them. But choosing between 2 and 5 cards to put in your hand? That's sweet. Bladesmith likes really fat decks or really slim decks, everything in between, well, than having multiple gets a bit dangerous.

So sure, you always want at least one bladesmith. But will you get another? Who knows. If Bladesmith is the only terminal draw; what will you do then?

Bladesmith originally started out as a card that revealed and trashed itself, but you could put all seasons cards in your hand. The final alteration you see here.

What do you think?



Ah, collection. It's like a recycling agency for action cards. You'd probably don't want to collect herald, village or minion, but maybe a moneylender, a seahag or a beggar might work.

It originally started as a $3, but man, BM collection was pretty strong. We bumped it to 4. I wanted to have an on-trash penalty of, say, 'gain <3>', but we ended up with the regular version you see here. What do you think? Should it have an on-trash penalty to make sure people don't just collect collections? Either way, collection is never really in the way, because of it's can trip nature. And well, putting a gold on top of your deck isn't the worst thing in the world either.

My personal fear is that the card is a little bit too strong (as in: just play big money collection). And that would defeat the purpose of the expansion (namely: cards you want some of, but not too many.)

Let us know wht you think, more are on the way.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2016, 09:39:55 pm by AdrianHealey »
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2016, 10:16:00 pm »
+1

What is the purpose of Bladesmith trashing other Bladesmiths?  It shouldn't be just to fit the theme of the set if it doesn't make the card better. I'd rather compare it to Journeyman than Embassy, and it looks only slightly stronger than Journeyman, so it probably doesn't need the drawback.

Other than that, they both look like good cards. Looking forward to the rest of the set.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2016, 10:18:00 pm by LibraryAdventurer »
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2016, 10:22:46 pm »
+1

The few times I have playtested it, it was way better than Journeyman. I mean, sure, if you only have coppers, it's easy for Journeyman. In a deck with estates, curses and coppers, it gets disproportionately more difficult to guess it right. Bladesmith has no such problem. Be gone, you useless things.

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2016, 10:24:51 pm »
+2

What is the purpose of Bladesmith trashing other Bladesmiths?  It shouldn't be just to fit the theme of the set if it doesn't make the card better. I'd rather compare it to Journeyman than Embassy, and it looks only slightly stronger than Journeyman, so it probably doesn't need the drawback.

Other than that, they both look like good cards. Looking forward to the rest of the set.
Catacombs is probably an even more apt comparison. Without the drawback it would be very nearly strictly better for almost all purposes. With it, though, not so much.
Inherited Bladesmiths would be disgustig though.

Edit: Also, isn't it standard practice for vanilla bonuses not at the start of the card to be in line with the rest of the text and not centralized? Just a little nitpicky thing.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2016, 10:26:49 pm by tailred »
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2016, 10:29:05 pm »
+1

Edit: Also, isn't it standard practice for vanilla bonuses not at the start of the card to be in line with the rest of the text and not centralized? Just a little nitpicky thing.

Not always. See: Oracle
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2016, 10:40:43 pm »
+1

The few times I have playtested it, it was way better than Journeyman. I mean, sure, if you only have coppers, it's easy for Journeyman. In a deck with estates, curses and coppers, it gets disproportionately more difficult to guess it right. Bladesmith has no such problem. Be gone, you useless things.
Still, the drawback is too much. It would really suck if it was the only good draw on the board (and very often there isn't more than one good draw card).

AdrianHealey

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2016, 10:50:42 pm »
+1

Well, don't put your +1 Action token on Bladesmith!
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2016, 11:02:12 pm »
+2

Bladesmith is cool but the drawback of trashing another one is just so rough! I'd have it have some sort of other drawback, like gaining a Curse or a Copper per Bladesmith you reveal. Or maybe you have to discard a card. Or maybe you don't get to draw +3 cards, but +2 instead. Anything but trashing that Bladesmith!
« Last Edit: August 13, 2016, 11:03:49 pm by Seprix »
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2016, 06:43:19 am »
+1

Man, the card isn't formally presented for a day, or already Seprix is already pretty attached to it!

I'd rather make the card slightly stronger rather than take away the trash penalty. The entire point is to make a card that you always want one of, but a second one hurts. Maybe if trashing really is too narrow (and limits strategic choices, which is, I guess, what you want to maximize), than maybe 'discard a revealed bladesmith (and gain a copper, if you do)' would also do the trick. Do you think that would increase strategic decision making?
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2016, 07:18:38 am »
+3

Well, the problem with Bladesmith is that you can only use one of them, and for that, it doesn't seems too strong. but I'd rather make it stronger than weaken the penalty, because that seems more unique and interesting.

Cellection seems a bit too good with Shelters? You could change it to only being able to trash Actions costing $3 or more I think, and then it might be fine to have it only cost $2. The significant diferences that would make other than Shelters boards are
- not so good against Ruins
- no self-synergy.
Both are fine I think. On the other hand, Advance is also pretty good with Shelters, and that's an official card-shaped thing, so it might be fine.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2016, 07:27:36 am »
+1

Well, the problem with Bladesmith is that you can only use one of them, and for that, it doesn't seems too strong. but I'd rather make it stronger than weaken the penalty, because that seems more unique and interesting.

Cellection seems a bit too good with Shelters? You could change it to only being able to trash Actions costing $3 or more I think, and then it might be fine to have it only cost $2. The significant diferences that would make other than Shelters boards are
- not so good against Ruins
- no self-synergy.
Both are fine I think. On the other hand, Advance is also pretty good with Shelters, and that's an official card-shaped thing, so it might be fine.

Advance is insane with shelters but euh, only one of the shelters is an action card, right? So sure, you can easily trade necropolis for a gold, but it's not super-duper strong. And both have access to it, so I am not too worried about that. The only thing I am personally worried about is Collection-BM. As long as that's not a thing, I am good.

Thanks for liking the core idea of Bladesmith (that people want to get rid of. :p) So far, Bladesmith didn't feel particularly underwhelming, but maybe there is room for a buff there too.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2016, 07:29:30 am by AdrianHealey »
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2016, 07:57:15 am »
0

Edit: Also, isn't it standard practice for vanilla bonuses not at the start of the card to be in line with the rest of the text and not centralized? Just a little nitpicky thing.

Not always. See: Oracle
Actually, the card was originally called Augur to represent the similarity. I couldn't find suitable art however, so Bladesmith it was. If I ever come across art I like then Augur it is, I don't currently like how LFN has a card named Bladesmith too.

Bladesmith is defiantly one of the more niche cards of the set. It's best purpose is as a powerful supplementary draw card, when you already have a good amount of blind draw. It's also definitely a slog card. Trashing will almost kill it's power.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2016, 09:35:35 am »
+1

Collection is a good counter to Cultist and anything else that actionjunks you, but that's all well and good.

It's good with Fortress, which is just Fortress being Fortress.

It kills all the Rats. And there was much rejoicing.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2016, 09:46:55 am »
+2

Collection is a good counter to Cultist and anything else that actionjunks you, but that's all well and good.

It's good with Fortress, which is just Fortress being Fortress.

It kills all the Rats. And there was much rejoicing.

Fortress gonna fortress.

There is actually a card later that we nerfed because, well, fortress gonna fortress.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2016, 10:07:28 am »
+3

The thing with Bladesmith is the swinginess. Both players get two; player 1 keeps both the whole game while player 2 loses one on his first play of the other. It reminds me of treasure map; except if treasure map forced you to play it whenever you drew it. If you get bad luck with Treasure Map, you try again next shuffle. If you get bad luck with Bladesmith, it's really bad.

*Edit* With TM, you only have to get lucky once. With Bladesmith, you only have to get unlucky once.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2016, 10:17:19 am by GendoIkari »
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2016, 11:13:47 am »
+3

One potential solution to a lot of people's concerns about Bladesmith that popped into my head and would fit the original idea could be something like:

Bladesmith
$5 - Action

Reveal the top four cards of your deck. Discard any revealed Bladesmiths and put the remaining cards into your hand.

I do like the concept anti-synergy as a focus for an expansion.


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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2016, 11:43:14 am »
0

One potential solution to a lot of people's concerns about Bladesmith that popped into my head and would fit the original idea could be something like:

Bladesmith
$5 - Action

Reveal the top four cards of your deck. Discard any revealed Bladesmiths and put the remaining cards into your hand.

I do like the concept anti-synergy as a focus for an expansion.
I like that. I'll talk about it w/ adrian. To adress the worries of collection with Shelters and Ruins, they warp the game around them, even with official cards. Changing the cards based shelters isn't the point of shelters, their point is to change the game. Unless it's an game-breaking combo then it's fine IMO.

Meanwhile, here's a really balanced card with not much to talk about.

Simple card, and pretty balanced. It may seem bad compared to moneylender, but the fact that it-s non terminal can give it an edge over Moneylender and Sacrifice.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2016, 11:47:30 am »
+3

Coins is actually one of my first cards and besides a small change from 'trash treasures' to 'trash anything', it has never changed. It does what it needs to do, it always does what it needs to do, and does nothing more than itn eeds to be. Not the most trilling card, but it's a card that you usually want one or two of. (In 4 player curse games, it's a race to who gets the most of them, to be sure (I know from experience), but besides that, it's a good silver-late-game-copper.

If I would change Bladesmith, I would probably make it cheaper ($4) so that it doesn't hurt as much when you trash another bladesmith.

Or, maybe this would also work: I wonder how strong bladesmith is still if you keep the original version but rather than 'trash' make it 'set it aside until the end of your turn, and discard it then'. It'll probably play similar, but it doesn't hurt as much when you reveal it.
 
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2016, 11:57:33 am »
+4

I think that the biggest problem with the current Bladesmith isn't necessarily that it's too weak (I'm not sure if it is), but that it feels super bad when you have to trash the other Bladesmith.

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2016, 12:01:09 pm »
+1

Hi everyone. Like Adrian said, I was being helpful for a while but then we started using Google Spreadsheets (I think) and those are impossible to access from mobile. So I might leave some comments here!
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2016, 12:07:59 pm »
+1

Hi everyone. Like Adrian said, I was being helpful for a while but then we started using Google Spreadsheets (I think) and those are impossible to access from mobile. So I might leave some comments here!
Yeah, next epansion we'll use a different way.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #24 on: August 14, 2016, 12:08:56 pm »
+1

Hi everyone. Like Adrian said, I was being helpful for a while but then we started using Google Spreadsheets (I think) and those are impossible to access from mobile. So I might leave some comments here!
Yeah, next epansion we'll use a different way.
Sadly I might get a computer tomorrow or on Tuesday, so we might be able to use the same way.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #25 on: August 14, 2016, 04:05:43 pm »
+1

Edit: Also, isn't it standard practice for vanilla bonuses not at the start of the card to be in line with the rest of the text and not centralized? Just a little nitpicky thing.

Not always. See: Oracle
Actually, the card was originally called Augur to represent the similarity. I couldn't find suitable art however, so Bladesmith it was. If I ever come across art I like then Augur it is, I don't currently like how LFN has a card named Bladesmith too.

Bladesmith is defiantly one of the more niche cards of the set. It's best purpose is as a powerful supplementary draw card, when you already have a good amount of blind draw. It's also definitely a slog card. Trashing will almost kill it's power.
You're going to change the name of a card just because you can't find a good image?  I say call it Auger. I like the name as a similar thing to Oracle.

I'd be cool for Bladesmith to get a little buff to make up for the major drawback since that was the basic premise of the card. one or the other.

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #26 on: August 14, 2016, 05:30:19 pm »
+1

I wonder - could Bladesmith just automatically discard copies of itself instead of trashing them? That might be less frustrating. I'm not sure it's necessarily stronger, even - after all, trashing them balances out the amount of Bladesmiths to a level that the deck benefits from. Just a thought.

Either way, i'm curious on this set, and it's nice to see some appreciation for Co0kie's work (and, to a lesser extend, mine).

Edit: oh, i see Archetype already suggested the discarding. Well, take this as me chiming in on that idea, then.

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #27 on: August 14, 2016, 07:06:41 pm »
+2

I think my favorite suggestion for Bladesmith was actually (sorry, haha) my own with the 'setting aside card'.

I mean, the biggest point is that it really needs to feel like 'fuck me for buying this card'. And even more so than overdrawing smithy. Merely discard, well, that's bad, but it doesn't really stop you from drawing it again and using it again. Setting it aside until the end of your turn literally takes away a very good card this turn, so the penalty is more severe, but less sucky than trashing. Everythign else on the card (price, ability, etc.) can stay very similar then. So now paying $5 for a card that is set aside is still bad, but it's not as bad as trashing a card from your own deck that costs $5.

The biggest argument for this imo is also the argument of randomness from swingeness factor from GendoIkari. Setting aside is still swingy, but not as swingy as trashing it.

What do people think of this idea?

Any other views on collection and coins? :)
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #28 on: August 14, 2016, 07:28:18 pm »
+2

I just thought of a few possible ways to make cards that go with this set's premise:
  • Have them return to your hand when played (actually not that simple, see all the trouble my Road went through)
  • Give them an "If this is the first time you play a XYZ this turn..." clause
  • Give them a non-stacking ability, like Secret Chamber's

Did i hit something there? ;)

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #29 on: August 14, 2016, 07:58:05 pm »
+1

I am trying to come up with a way that 3 could work on this particular one.

I am already going to spoil and say that variances of 2 have been used in the set. The entire point is to work actively on not having to use that particular phrasing. :D
Quote
Reveal the top 5 cards of your deck. Discard up to 3 revealed cards, putting the rest back in any order. +3 Cards
--
When you reveal a bladesmith from your deck, set it aside and discard it during your clean up phase.

This buffs the card in that it doesn't trash it, but nerfs it regarding other reveal cards.

Theta, what do you think? (This idea is inspired by NMF's thread.)

If this drawback is still too much (I don't think it is), I'd rather make the card even stronger then (increase the amount of cards you can discard, for example).

« Last Edit: August 14, 2016, 08:15:00 pm by AdrianHealey »
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #30 on: August 15, 2016, 06:27:25 am »
+1

I am trying to come up with a way that 3 could work on this particular one.

I am already going to spoil and say that variances of 2 have been used in the set. The entire point is to work actively on not having to use that particular phrasing. :D
Quote
Reveal the top 5 cards of your deck. Discard up to 3 revealed cards, putting the rest back in any order. +3 Cards
--
When you reveal a bladesmith from your deck, set it aside and discard it during your clean up phase.

This buffs the card in that it doesn't trash it, but nerfs it regarding other reveal cards.

Theta, what do you think? (This idea is inspired by NMF's thread.)

If this drawback is still too much (I don't think it is), I'd rather make the card even stronger then (increase the amount of cards you can discard, for example).

I'm not sure how Herald/Golem revealing that version of Bladesmith would work. It would certainly be confusing.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #31 on: August 15, 2016, 06:30:48 am »
+1

Well, suppose you'd had a card that said 'trsh when revealed'. Following the logic of attack cards (first reactions, than the rest), it would seem that the text on the card got priority on the card the did the revealing. What would your interpretation be?

Edit: it seems like a simple 'loose track' rule application would apply, even though it is unprecented.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2016, 06:38:09 am by AdrianHealey »
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #32 on: August 15, 2016, 06:52:29 am »
+2

Well, suppose you'd had a card that said 'trsh when revealed'. Following the logic of attack cards (first reactions, than the rest), it would seem that the text on the card got priority on the card the did the revealing. What would your interpretation be?

Edit: it seems like a simple 'loose track' rule application would apply, even though it is unprecented.

It is clear to me that it would be set aside/trashed before being played. But my question is rather, wouldn't it still be played, like how a throned Feast is still played the second time even though it's in the trash?
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #33 on: August 15, 2016, 06:59:06 am »
+1

Well, suppose you'd had a card that said 'trsh when revealed'. Following the logic of attack cards (first reactions, than the rest), it would seem that the text on the card got priority on the card the did the revealing. What would your interpretation be?

Edit: it seems like a simple 'loose track' rule application would apply, even though it is unprecented.

It is clear to me that it would be set aside/trashed before being played. But my question is rather, wouldn't it still be played, like how a throned Feast is still played the second time even though it's in the trash?

I have no strong views on this, I'd be fine either way in such a case. I think your interpretation makes the most sense, but I don't really know tbh.

Edit: I guess what might also work is that there are two things that try to happen at the same thing: (1) getting set aside (blacksmith) and (2) getting played (herald/golem) and the player can choose the order in which this happens. And it seems that if you do the first one first, you loose track.

Does that sound plausible?
« Last Edit: August 15, 2016, 07:14:16 am by AdrianHealey »
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #34 on: August 15, 2016, 09:16:37 am »
+1

Playing cards usually implies moving them into play, but if a card cannot be moved because of the lose-track rule, the playing itself still takes place. The Feast/TR example is spot on.

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #35 on: August 15, 2016, 10:44:53 am »
+2

Well, that solves that problem!



Do you want your friends to hate you? Because this is how you get your friends to hate you. A curser that junks curses, coppers and has an anti-self-synergy? Horrible. I mean, Dusk Villages are going to great slog games if there is no trashing. You know what sucks in a slog game? Cantrips that do nothing for you. At least regular ol' witch gives you +2 cards and mountebank is worthy a silver.

The only redeeming feature is that you get the curse and copper in your hand, so it doesn't immediately at to the onslaught that is your discard/deck (except if the other one plays a militia, than he is just a completely awful person). I mean, the copper in your hand is definitely necessary to gain some kind of purchasing power in the game. The curse is, well, like in any other game. But man, if you can survice the onslaught of curses and coppers and you can still play Dusk Villages, well, the opponent can even draw another card. So how many of these do you want? Well, it junks better than witch if you can play two in a row, but if you only have dusk villages than the amount of cards you are getting extra is zero. So what to do?

I was even thinking about giving this card the set up that you should at the Plan event to the supply. That would be cool. But it is how it is.

Either way, we have had lots of fun with it. But I can't find anyone to try it in a game with no-trashing. I wonder why. (But I don't think it's anymore sloggy than other cursers such as mountebank, cultist or regular witch.)
« Last Edit: August 15, 2016, 10:46:21 am by AdrianHealey »
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #36 on: August 15, 2016, 10:50:08 am »
+2

I would suggest replacing "first" with "1st", "second" with "2nd", and "third" with "3rd". It should save you a line of text, which would be really great on such a wordy card.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #37 on: August 15, 2016, 10:52:27 am »
+3

It needs to have "this turn", see Crossroads. Unfortunately the card is really crowded and can't really fit that. LF's suggestion will help some, but it's still really crowded. Also, I didn't even see the "If this is the..." line when I first read the card due to how close it is to the vanilla bonuses. I don't know how to fix it without changing it from 3 modes of use to 2.

*Edit* Why bother gaining the curse to their hand? All it does is make the attack very slightly weaker while adding a few extra words.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2016, 10:53:38 am by GendoIkari »
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #38 on: August 15, 2016, 10:56:32 am »
+1

So, is it supposed to be lacking "this turn"? Because counting the number of Dusk Villages you played throughout the game seems like a pain, and also it's not worth $5. Of course, adding the words at three points will make the card even wordier, but really, you can't just skip those.

Argh, ninja'd...

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #39 on: August 15, 2016, 10:59:55 am »
+1

It needs to have "this turn", see Crossroads. Unfortunately the card is really crowded and can't really fit that. LF's suggestion will help some, but it's still really crowded. Also, I didn't even see the "If this is the..." line when I first read the card due to how close it is to the vanilla bonuses. I don't know how to fix it without changing it from 3 modes of use to 2.

*Edit* Why bother gaining the curse to their hand? All it does is make the attack very slightly weaker while adding a few extra words.

In a game with trashing, the difference has been noticeable. (Capability to trash immediatiately versus having to wait a turn.) It's not there for the pretty appearance. :)

And yes, 'this turn needs to be on there'. We missed that.

It also helped to remember 'when you gain stuff because of dusk village, gain it to your hand'. There were multiple times people missed putting the copper in their hand.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2016, 11:03:29 am by AdrianHealey »
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #40 on: August 15, 2016, 11:01:50 am »
+4

I think I have the best wording, which fits on 5 lines of text quite well.

If you've played exactly 1 Dusk Village
this turn, each other player gains a
Curse. If you've played exactly 2, they
gain a Copper instead. If you've played
exactly 3, they instead draw a card.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #41 on: August 15, 2016, 11:06:17 am »
+3

Wording suggestion for Dusk Village:

Count the Dusk Villages in play. If the number is...
...1, each other player gains a Curse.
...2, each other player gains a Copper.
...3, each other player draws a card.

It does some Throne Room shenanigans, but ultimately it might be worth it to save some text.

PPE: LF's suggestions seems fine too.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #42 on: August 15, 2016, 11:08:52 am »
+3

Me three! I'd word it something like this:

This turn, if you have played Dusk Village...
Once, each other player gains a Curse to their hand.
Twice, each other player gains a Copper to their hand.
Thrice, each other player draws a card.

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #43 on: August 15, 2016, 11:10:30 am »
+1

I might prefer Dusk Village as a Looter - the Ruinses would be at least somewhat less bad if you already have some Villages in your deck.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #44 on: August 15, 2016, 11:12:06 am »
+1

Me three! I'd word it something like this:

This turn, if you have played Dusk Village...
Once, each other player gains a Curse to their hand.
Twice, each other player gains a Copper to their hand.
Thrice, each other player draws a card.
I'm not sure that works. Sutff preceeded by "this turn" sets up continuous effect, like "all cards cost $1 less". It can also be read in a way that you still count all the Dusk Villages you ever played.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #45 on: August 15, 2016, 11:22:17 am »
+2

Sure, you can intentionally misinterpret it.

How about "If on this turn, you have played Dusk Village..."

Edit: Also, I looked at some official cards, and my usage of "this turn" seems perfectly fine as compared to other cards that use it.  The phrase does not only apply to turn altering effects like Bridge. See Conspirator.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2016, 11:25:57 am by Deadlock39 »
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #46 on: August 15, 2016, 02:32:00 pm »
+2

Dusk Village looks really cool. I always thought a cursing village would be cool, but would have the difficulty of being too easy to spam. I think this did a good job of nullifying that problem. Maybe limiting the text would be a good idea, though.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #47 on: August 15, 2016, 02:51:19 pm »
+1

I think I have the best wording, which fits on 5 lines of text quite well.

If you've played exactly 1 Dusk Village
this turn, each other player gains a
Curse. If you've played exactly 2, they
gain a Copper instead. If you've played
exactly 3, they instead draw a card.

I just realized this wording of mine doesn't say that the cards are gained "to their hand". I probably forgot about that part because I don't think the cards should be gained to hand anyway. I saves a lot of words, too.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #48 on: August 15, 2016, 03:47:39 pm »
+1

This is almost a completely different card, but... uh it popped into my head.

Each other Player may reveal a Curse
If they don't, they gain a Curse. If they
do, they may reveal a Copper. If they
don't, they gain a Copper.
Each other player puts the top card of
their Discard Pile into their hand.

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #49 on: August 17, 2016, 02:13:05 pm »
+1

Ok, the four cards posted so far (let me refresh your memory), weren't a big splash yet.



How about an event that really is game changing?



We made it such that it's always accessible for everyone, even if you have a bad hand at some point due to shuffle luck or whatever. But man, if homecoming is in the kingdom, you really want to make sure your deck is a mirror of your opponent, but who can challenge the other to follow his or her lead? And if the opponent has a similar deck, do you dare using the event? Basically: homecoming is an open invite to play the game of chicken with your opponent.

And it can be used both for defensive as offensive purposes, which is just too good.

How would you play with this event?
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #50 on: August 17, 2016, 03:02:16 pm »
+2

I don't like the ability to move other player's tokens... it feels like it makes Lost Arts, Pathfinding, etc, almost pointless. Why waste money and a buy, not to mention try to build a strategy around making a specific card more powerful, if your opponent can just always end his turn making sure you can't get any benefit from it?
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #51 on: August 17, 2016, 03:47:14 pm »
+1

I don't like the ability to move other player's tokens... it feels like it makes Lost Arts, Pathfinding, etc, almost pointless. Why waste money and a buy, not to mention try to build a strategy around making a specific card more powerful, if your opponent can just always end his turn making sure you can't get any benefit from it?

I agree. If the other players could choose, that would be something else, and still balanced, i think.

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #52 on: August 18, 2016, 12:31:41 am »
+1

I don't like the Event. Even a version in which the other players could choose would be dubious as it would just be a to and fro. I put the +1 Card token on my most numerous pile, the other players will do the same and so on. Either it is too cheap, i.e. if the other player doesn't undo it, or it is too strong, if both players spend coins again and again. Probably it would just incentivze both folks to mirror which happens with Pathfinding often anyway.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #53 on: August 18, 2016, 08:37:18 am »
0

So, the original intention was for a kind of mirror game, like Obelisk creates. I know a lot of people hate those, but I for one like them because they seem to require more skill. Being cajoled into a strategy, and trying to make the best of it seems fun too me, but I understand it's not everyone's cup of tea.

I think the problem with the event itself, is that it's too cheap. might be more appropriate. Also, there is some element of changing your strategy with this. If you played normally then it would be annoying, yes. But if you take it into consideration, investing into piles your opponents have, so they don't suddenly have 10 Lab-Moats, the event becomes better.

Maybe the reason why it seemed good is because the three of us aren't pros. If we were playing better and being more strategical we might have found that the best idea was to ricochet it back.

Now, if the event doesn't work out, which is very possible, there is a chance that it will come back later. There's definitely room for it in the next expansion which is on the table for the future. I have some ideas for it there, that use the new mechanics to solve it's problems.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #54 on: August 18, 2016, 08:44:22 am »
+1



Surprise! My fan cards were graciously added to the set later in the development. You may recall some from my earlier thread, albeit much more lame. I'm happy to announce that the cards have been remade for the most part. 2 were scrapped, and the rest went under changes.

Market day is a card along the lines of Travelling Fair, but without the top-decking. It's main utility is getting you loads of buys cheap. It's a fairly niche card, probably only bought in about 1/2 the games it's in. But when you need loads of copper fast for gardens, or when fortune gives you more money then you know what to do with, it's a powerful card-shaped thingy.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #55 on: August 19, 2016, 12:37:10 am »
+1

Basic vanilla resource conversion. I like it.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #56 on: August 19, 2016, 04:41:35 am »
+3

Meh. I think there's a good reason that Travelling Fair costs $2 and not $1.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #57 on: August 19, 2016, 06:35:57 am »
+1

Meh. I think there's a good reason that Travelling Fair costs $2 and not $1.
Yep, topdecking.
If you only need one extra buy Market Day is worse than Travelling Fair. A huge amount of extra buys is only useful for pile rushing, acquiring many cheap cards and stuff like Peddler.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #58 on: August 19, 2016, 07:16:32 am »
+1


Now for a weird one. Not much to say, other than at first blush it seems OP but it's really not. The lack of draw is a biggie, port is roughly the same power level.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #59 on: August 19, 2016, 07:54:22 am »
+1

Combo's well with diadem
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #60 on: August 19, 2016, 10:41:36 am »
+1

I'm not sure what i think of Scenic Village. It's odd indead, but i can't give a good reason as to why it should be bad - the tracking, maybe, but 10 is an easy to add number at least. Also, a misspelling slipped in.

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #61 on: August 19, 2016, 10:53:31 am »
+1

How many of these relative to village would you want in the first game
Engine?
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #62 on: August 19, 2016, 11:27:04 am »
0

I'm not sure what i think of Scenic Village. It's odd indead, but i can't give a good reason as to why it should be bad - the tracking, maybe, but 10 is an easy to add number at least. Also, a misspelling slipped in.
Curse you, GIMP lack of spellcheck. Actually the tracking is easier than you would expect, +10 is a nice round number.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #63 on: August 19, 2016, 11:30:33 am »
+1

Some secret history: I actually proposed a kind of action creator like storyteller, but Theta was having none of it.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #64 on: August 20, 2016, 12:34:11 am »
+2

Now for a weird one. Not much to say, other than at first blush it seems OP but it's really not. The lack of draw is a biggie, port is roughly the same power level.
The reason it is not overpowered is that even if it provided 100 actions you'd still need several of them. I even think that it might be too weak for 4$.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #65 on: August 20, 2016, 08:04:23 am »
0

Now for a weird one. Not much to say, other than at first blush it seems OP but it's really not. The lack of draw is a biggie, port is roughly the same power level.
The reason it is not overpowered is that even if it provided 100 actions you'd still need several of them. I even think that it might be too weak for 4$.
In the current version that's a possibility. Originally it gave unlimited actions, but it was simplifed to this. Adrian wanted an action storyteller, but as he said I wanted to keep this. I priced it at 4 because it seemed better than village, and about the same power level as port.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #66 on: August 20, 2016, 08:30:51 am »
+2


Were still previewing the more Beta+ cards, be tuned in a week or so for a lot of alpha cards, plenty of juicy criticism for those I'm sure.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #67 on: August 20, 2016, 09:47:15 am »
+1

Valley is literally game warping, manuscript doesn't throne duration cards because it anti-selfsynergizes and tracking was hard. Strongholf is fairly normal.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #68 on: August 20, 2016, 12:55:44 pm »
+1

I'd just make Scenic Village have the same clause as Champion. You won't often play 10+ terminals, but in the oddball game where you do, tracking will be messy.

I like Valley. Not sure if it's correctly priced, but it's a cool card in that it should be quite hard to time when to go for it.

Manuscript is okay-ish, I guess? I'm not particularly excited about another Throne Room variant. Royal Carriage does everthing this wants to do and more.

Stronghold is far more boring than Valley. It is still an okay card, and I wonder if you could pull off a Stronghold-Gardens slog.

I'm not sure how the names of the durations relate to their effect.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #69 on: August 20, 2016, 01:07:01 pm »
0

I'd just make Scenic Village have the same clause as Champion. You won't often play 10+ terminals, but in the oddball game where you do, tracking will be messy.

I like Valley. Not sure if it's correctly priced, but it's a cool card in that it should be quite hard to time when to go for it.

Manuscript is okay-ish, I guess? I'm not particularly excited about another Throne Room variant. Royal Carriage does everthing this wants to do and more.

Stronghold is far more boring than Valley. It is still an okay card, and I wonder if you could pull off a Stronghold-Gardens slog.

I'm not sure how the names of the durations relate to their effect.
Scenic village got changed for simplicity, a slight nerf, and so it actually stacked. Yes tracking can be a pain, but it's still about the same as without it.

Manuscript is more boringer, but they can't all be the most intesting card ever.

Stronghold is mainly meant as a non-seasons friendly variant of Trade Port.

The art and names are picked (Mostly) unccorolated to their effects.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #70 on: August 20, 2016, 05:33:21 pm »
+1

I like valley, but it seems a bit too similar to treasury. Granted, you have to have the victory cards already, but it's still a semi-permanent peddler dependant on victory cards.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #71 on: August 20, 2016, 05:38:03 pm »
+1

But it allows for far more vpcard purchases, which is interesting.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #72 on: August 20, 2016, 07:09:46 pm »
0

I like valley, but it seems a bit too similar to treasury. Granted, you have to have the victory cards already, but it's still a semi-permanent peddler dependant on victory cards.
Except its dependent the other way, so it's almost the opposite.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #73 on: August 22, 2016, 10:56:00 am »
+1

I like valley, but it seems a bit too similar to treasury. Granted, you have to have the victory cards already, but it's still a semi-permanent peddler dependant on victory cards.
Huh? Treasury makes you green later whereas Valley makes you green earlier.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #74 on: August 22, 2016, 12:18:40 pm »
+2

Stronghold is much more like Treasury than Valley. But I think having both Stronghold and Valley in the same expansion is overkill. Sure there are differences in how they play out, but they're still used much the same, and that card could be something more interesting.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #75 on: August 22, 2016, 12:26:44 pm »
+2

Valley is basically 'transform victory cards into peddlers'. Stronghold is a perma-coin/buy, but it doesn't cycle. They are similar; but not identical, and have different ways and usages. But sure, the 'similarity' criticism is not invalid.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #76 on: August 22, 2016, 01:56:02 pm »
+1

Stronghold is a permaduration Market whereas Valley converts the first Victory card into a Peddler.
I don't think that Stronghold is exciting but the two cards are not really that similar as they would play very differently.
Suppose that both cards are in the same Kingdom. Stronghold might be used during build up, to buy several cheap engine cards, whereas Valley might be used for a rush (green early) or alt-VP.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #77 on: August 22, 2016, 05:31:16 pm »
+1

Noticing that the card list/test status post has not been updated for the event and durations.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #78 on: August 22, 2016, 05:35:21 pm »
+1

I am moving, so time and internet access is relatively more scarce
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #79 on: August 22, 2016, 05:35:50 pm »
+2

Stronghold is a permaduration Market whereas Valley converts the first Victory card into a Peddler.
I don't think that Stronghold is exciting but the two cards are not really that similar as they would play very differently.
Suppose that both cards are in the same Kingdom. Stronghold might be used during build up, to buy several cheap engine cards, whereas Valley might be used for a rush (green early) or alt-VP.

They are different enough to warrant being different cards for sure. But when designing an expansion, I would try to avoid having a specific niche like "get $1 every turn" filled twice. I think they mentioned thinking about another expansion? Then put one here, one in the other.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #80 on: August 22, 2016, 06:33:52 pm »
0

Stronghold is a permaduration Market whereas Valley converts the first Victory card into a Peddler.
I don't think that Stronghold is exciting but the two cards are not really that similar as they would play very differently.
Suppose that both cards are in the same Kingdom. Stronghold might be used during build up, to buy several cheap engine cards, whereas Valley might be used for a rush (green early) or alt-VP.

They are different enough to warrant being different cards for sure. But when designing an expansion, I would try to avoid having a specific niche like "get $1 every turn" filled twice. I think they mentioned thinking about another expansion? Then put one here, one in the other.
We didn't design the expansion like this.

Disclaimer:
All the cards in Civilization are meant to work with all other official and most non-official cards, but they are not meant to be a complete set. Certain cards may fill similar niches, and attention was not paid to the balance of trashers, +Buy, villages, etc. I do not recommend you play games entirely of Civ.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #81 on: August 23, 2016, 04:03:11 am »
+1

Maybe we could, in due time. That's what beta testing is for.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #82 on: August 23, 2016, 11:44:22 am »
+1



Everyone's favorite trasher, trashing bad cards and turning them into good cards. If you are the only one trashing 2 different cards, you can get a $4, which is pretty good. If someone trashes something you aren't trashing, you can even get a $5 or a $6.

I trashed a silver once in trying to get a $5, and my opponent trashed nothing, so I had to settle for a $4, which was sad.

It gives a major benefit for all players on the table, so interaction without an attack, but if you benefit (when someone else plays miner), your opponent might as well get a very good card out of it, so is it worth it? You decide. I have played with it when my opponent trashed nothing, just to make sure I didn't get a good card, but maybe that wasn't optimal on his behalf.

But, like all civilization cards, you probably don't want 5 of these, but it's a pretty good card to start your deck with.

Shout out to Cookielord for the flashmechanic; a world of possibilities opens up there.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #83 on: August 24, 2016, 12:27:49 pm »
+1

This might need some clarification concerning the order of flashing. Normally this isn't necessary as a fixed amount of cards is flashed simultaneously but here the amount of cards you flash is up for choice and matters significantly.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #84 on: August 24, 2016, 03:21:51 pm »
0

That's a good point, it's assumed it's simultaneously, but I can see otherwise.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #85 on: August 24, 2016, 03:25:40 pm »
+1

Your opponents can see how many cards you are preparing to reveal, so I guess the 'preparing the cards' should be in turn order starting with the player on your left.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #86 on: August 31, 2016, 07:25:55 pm »
+1


A discard for benefit I'm surprised that hasn't been done before.

An reworked version of Party Time, an entrant into the prosperity contest.

Comboes with Stables, Saddle, Horse Trades, and Cavalry! That's why it has so many horses.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2016, 07:26:57 pm by ThetaSigma12 »
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #87 on: August 31, 2016, 08:04:30 pm »
+1

Cavalry should have the Attack type.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #88 on: August 31, 2016, 08:12:42 pm »
0

Cavalry should have the Attack type.
Ah, poop, accidentally posted the older version.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #89 on: August 31, 2016, 09:37:07 pm »
+1

On its own, Equestrian Village provides coins similarly to Bank. Is it really just a $5?
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #90 on: August 31, 2016, 11:40:05 pm »
+1

On its own, Equestrian Village provides coins similarly to Bank. Is it really just a $5?
When I first read this I thought: Just a $5? You think it should be more? 'On its own' Equestrian Village is a bazaar that makes you discard a card.

Then I thought some more: With enablers (like warehouse, vault, forum, cellar, embassy), it can be incredibly strong. With enablers and multiple Equestrian Villages in play, it easily gets overpowered. It probably should cost $7 as-is. Even so, an engine with Equestrian Villages along with Forum or Embassy is going to generate tons of coin.

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #91 on: September 01, 2016, 12:41:58 am »
+1

Celebration seems pretty strong compared to Monument (but then again you need the 2 cards in hand so perhaps it is OK) and Equestrian Village is totally crazy, converting every sifter into a monster.
About Cavalry, normally (i.e. you have 5 cards in hand when you play Cavalry) this is equivalent to draw 2 cards, discard 3, draw 3, everybody else down to 3.
So it draws the same amount of cards as Embassy but split up so it is worse. It is better than Embassy as there is no Silver gift and as there is the discard attack.
Hard to tell as it is a draw up to X but my guess is that this is closer to being a 5 than a 4.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2016, 12:47:15 am by tristan »
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #92 on: September 01, 2016, 12:43:09 am »
+1

Celebration seems pretty strong compared to Monument (but then again you need the 2 cards in hand so perhaps it is OK) and Equestrian Village is totally crazy, converting every sifter into a monster.
And it also costs
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #93 on: September 01, 2016, 12:49:02 am »
+1

About Cavalry, normally (i.e. you have 5 cards in hand when you play Cavalry) this is equivalent to draw 2 cards, discard 3, draw 3, everybody else down to 3.
So it draws the same amount of cards as Embassy but split up so it is worse. It is better than Embassy as there is no Silver gift and as there is the discard attack.
Hard to tell as it is a draw up to X but my guess is that this is closer to being a 5 than a 4.

Celebration seems pretty strong compared to Monument (but then again you need the 2 cards in hand so perhaps it is OK) and Equestrian Village is totally crazy, converting every sifter into a monster.
And it also costs
I took this into account. Relative to Momument it provides an extra coin and an extra buy and while the trashing could be tricky (e.g. rarely Throne-able) I think that it is more of an asset than a liability.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #94 on: September 01, 2016, 08:48:11 am »
0

Unless I am mistaken on Cavalry, it should be:
1 Draw 2 cards.
2 Discard 3 cards.
3 Draw 2 cards +attack.

So that's a net gain of 1 card and some sifting. Maybe good, but not embassy level?

Celebration is defiantly strong, but it seems to be overrated. It's power level is about mercenary. It gives more VP than monument, but since you have to trash it can quickly become more of a hassle than monument.

Equestrian village had a few nerfs coming, but Adrian wanted the set out sooner, so we posted this version. We kinda figured it was good, but we wanted to know what exactly to nerf. Remove the +1 Action?, Limit the coins to equestrian village? there were plenty of ways to go.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #95 on: September 01, 2016, 10:44:12 am »
+2

I think Equestrian Village is a great idea, but balancing is indeed tricky. My thought is to not allow it to stack. The wording for that is very tricky; probably needs to be one of those weird Embargo type wordings...

"When you discard a card, + if you have at least 1 Equestrian Village in play".
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #96 on: September 01, 2016, 10:47:21 am »
+2

My favorite version was:

Equestrian Village - $5
+1 Card
+2 Actions
-
When you discard a card with at least one equestrian village in play: +$1.



So more EV's gives no additional benefit, sometimes it's a plain village for $5 (sometimes foretress is just a village), but you gain coins from anywhere you discard.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #97 on: September 01, 2016, 12:11:15 pm »
+1

My favorite version was:

Equestrian Village - $5
+1 Card
+2 Actions
-
When you discard a card with at least one equestrian village in play: +$1.



So more EV's gives no additional benefit, sometimes it's a plain village for $5 (sometimes foretress is just a village), but you gain coins from anywhere you discard.

I dunno, just a village for $4 is way better than just a village for $5. I think the card needs to allow discarding built in.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #98 on: September 01, 2016, 12:26:32 pm »
+1

My favorite version was:

Equestrian Village - $5
+1 Card
+2 Actions
-
When you discard a card with at least one equestrian village in play: +$1.



So more EV's gives no additional benefit, sometimes it's a plain village for $5 (sometimes foretress is just a village), but you gain coins from anywhere you discard.

I dunno, just a village for $4 is way better than just a village for $5. I think the card needs to allow discarding built in.

Well, just a village is even better at $3. I am not sure this is particularly convincing point for me. Even if it's 'just a village', well, it's a village at $5, and you plan your desired engine accordingly.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #99 on: September 01, 2016, 12:30:44 pm »
+2

It just seems like having you discard a card would work really well. It doesn't make the card stronger (generally will make it weaker), while also ensuring that it's ability will always do something.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2016, 12:54:40 pm by GendoIkari »
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #100 on: September 01, 2016, 12:34:23 pm »
+1

Without the stacking, it seems like it could probably just be dropped to $4.  Sure, it might get "cwazy" with the right support, but so does Fortress.

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #101 on: September 01, 2016, 12:51:20 pm »
0

It just seems like having you discard a card would really well. It doesn't make the card stronger (generally will make it weaker), while also ensuring that it's ability will always do something.
That was my reasoning when I added that part, but AH dissagreed. I can kinda see his side but I still like the built in discarding.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #102 on: September 01, 2016, 12:55:24 pm »
+1

It just seems like having you discard a card would really well. It doesn't make the card stronger (generally will make it weaker), while also ensuring that it's ability will always do something.
That was my reasoning when I added that part, but AH dissagreed. I can kinda see his side but I still like the built in discarding.

How about this, then? I don't think I am a fan of the optional 'you may discard a card', because than the card get's real close to Bazaar. But this seems pretty good. Maybe could be even $4 then, I don't know.

Quote
Equestrian Village - $5
+1 Card
+2 Actions
Discard a card.
-
When you discard a card with at least one equestrian village in play: +$1.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #103 on: September 01, 2016, 01:00:34 pm »
+1

Looks very similar to Plaza.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #104 on: September 01, 2016, 01:07:13 pm »
+3

Looks very similar to Plaza.

When there are no sifters, sure. When there is any of them (and there are a lot), it seems remarkably stronger.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #105 on: September 01, 2016, 01:24:01 pm »
+1

It just seems like having you discard a card would really well. It doesn't make the card stronger (generally will make it weaker), while also ensuring that it's ability will always do something.
That was my reasoning when I added that part, but AH dissagreed. I can kinda see his side but I still like the built in discarding.

How about this, then? I don't think I am a fan of the optional 'you may discard a card', because than the card get's real close to Bazaar. But this seems pretty good. Maybe could be even $4 then, I don't know.

Quote
Equestrian Village - $5
+1 Card
+2 Actions
Discard a card.
-
When you discard a card with at least one equestrian village in play: +$1.

This is the card I was suggesting. I didn't think anyone was talking about an optional discard.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #106 on: September 01, 2016, 01:25:38 pm »
+1

Looks very similar to Plaza.

When there are no sifters, sure. When there is any of them (and there are a lot), it seems remarkably stronger.

Even without other sifters, I'm pretty sure it's a good bit stronger, because if you have at least 1 junk or useless card in your hand, it's still a Bazaar. Plaza doesn't let you discard useless cards.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #107 on: September 01, 2016, 01:32:38 pm »
+1

It just seems like having you discard a card would really well. It doesn't make the card stronger (generally will make it weaker), while also ensuring that it's ability will always do something.
That was my reasoning when I added that part, but AH dissagreed. I can kinda see his side but I still like the built in discarding.

How about this, then? I don't think I am a fan of the optional 'you may discard a card', because than the card get's real close to Bazaar. But this seems pretty good. Maybe could be even $4 then, I don't know.

Quote
Equestrian Village - $5
+1 Card
+2 Actions
Discard a card.
-
When you discard a card with at least one equestrian village in play: +$1.

This is the card I was suggesting. I didn't think anyone was talking about an optional discard.

Excellent. We had optional discarding at one point. :)
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #108 on: September 01, 2016, 01:48:16 pm »
+2

Important clarification: Discard a card from your hand. This prevents confusion with spy, and makes Cartographer, Farming Village, and other top of your deck cards less powerful.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #109 on: September 01, 2016, 03:01:04 pm »
+3

Important clarification: Discard a card from your hand. This prevents confusion with spy, and makes Cartographer, Farming Village, and other top of your deck cards less powerful.

A shame. I was hoping to play my Golem for +$30.

Edit: Adventurer is probably more realistic here.

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #110 on: September 01, 2016, 03:09:38 pm »
+2

Important clarification: Discard a card from your hand. This prevents confusion with spy, and makes Cartographer, Farming Village, and other top of your deck cards less powerful.

A shame. I was hoping to play my Golem for +$30.

Edit: Adventurer is probably more realistic here.

Adventurer buff is great!
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #111 on: September 01, 2016, 03:42:13 pm »
+2

The trouble with tracking discarding is that the power varies wildly depending on other cards.  Equestrian Village + Embassy seems runaway powerful.  Or EVil + Minion.  What if instead of tracking discards, it tracks handsize?

ie.
+1 Card
+2 Actions
Discard a card.
If you have less than 5 cards in your hand, +$1 for each card fewer than 5.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2016, 03:44:27 pm by trivialknot »
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #112 on: September 01, 2016, 04:00:48 pm »
+1

Cavalry may be too good at $4 and too bad at $5. Not sure. It's good that the attack doesn't stack, so draw-to-X engines don't get too crazy.

Is there a reason for Celebration to say "you may"? The situation where you choose not to seems so edge-casey that it doesn't really warrant the additional text. Other than that, I kinda like the card. It's similar-ish to Trading Post, but probably better most of the time.

I'm not sure about EqV. Without other discard, it's worse than Bazaar. With other discard, it quickly get cwazy. There is no space where it's simply decent. I like trivialknot's variant on it, but would suggest Poor House's wording, i.e.
+5$
-1$ per card in your hand, to a minimum of $0.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #113 on: September 01, 2016, 04:26:56 pm »
+2

Important clarification: Discard a card from your hand. This prevents confusion with spy, and makes Cartographer, Farming Village, and other top of your deck cards less powerful.

A shame. I was hoping to play my Golem for +$30.

Edit: Adventurer is probably more realistic here.

Sage could be huge. Your opponent plays Fortune Teller would be really insane. Navigator, Cartographer... it's just too much. The thing with top-of-your-deck discards is that there's several that can discard a lot of cards at once. With hand discard, while there's plenty out there that lets you do it; only a few options are many cards at once.

The more I talk about this, the less I think that the card can work. There's too many broken combos. Equestrian Village + Warehouse or Cellar alone is pretty insane. Equestrian Village + Storeroom is an automatic Province just for having both in your hand. Equestrian Village + Vault is a Province (though so is Gold + Vault).

Fun fact, Temporum has a permanent "when you discard a card, +$1", and it's one of the weakest cards in the game.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #114 on: September 01, 2016, 04:35:32 pm »
+3

Maybe it could be "Whenever you discard one or more cards". It's still a decent boost, but doesn't become ridiculous.

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #115 on: September 01, 2016, 04:37:15 pm »
+1

Important clarification: Discard a card from your hand. This prevents confusion with spy, and makes Cartographer, Farming Village, and other top of your deck cards less powerful.

A shame. I was hoping to play my Golem for +$30.

Edit: Adventurer is probably more realistic here.

Sage could be huge. Your opponent plays Fortune Teller would be really insane. Navigator, Cartographer... it's just too much. The thing with top-of-your-deck discards is that there's several that can discard a lot of cards at once. With hand discard, while there's plenty out there that lets you do it; only a few options are many cards at once.

The more I talk about this, the less I think that the card can work. There's too many broken combos. Equestrian Village + Warehouse or Cellar alone is pretty insane. Equestrian Village + Storeroom is an automatic Province just for having both in your hand. Equestrian Village + Vault is a Province (though so is Gold + Vault).

Fun fact, Temporum has a permanent "when you discard a card, +$1", and it's one of the weakest cards in the game.

The interaction with cellar and warehouse and storeroom is intended.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #116 on: September 01, 2016, 04:42:13 pm »
+2

Maybe it could be "Whenever you discard one or more cards". It's still a decent boost, but doesn't become ridiculous.
This might be my favorite so far.  I think right now it's either this or preventing themcoin from stacking.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #117 on: September 02, 2016, 09:07:52 am »
+2

This totally came to me in a dream last night:

Equestrian Village - Action-Gathering - $5
+1 Card
+2 Actions
Discard a card.
-
While this is in play, when you discard a card, take a from here.
-
Setup: Place x on the Equestrian Village supply pile.


Not sure what a good number of VP to put on there would be. Though in my dream, the original idea was a lot more similar to this than it actually is; because it generated VP instead of for discarding.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #118 on: September 03, 2016, 01:47:39 pm »
0


Originally called coins, with coins current art.

Combos extremely well with Suburb.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #119 on: September 03, 2016, 07:00:03 pm »
+1

Is Jackpot supposed to say "you may call this, for +$3," or is it supposed to be required? Also, what is this "Suburb" card you refer to that combos well with Saddle?
« Last Edit: September 03, 2016, 07:01:48 pm by Gubump »
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #120 on: September 03, 2016, 07:09:32 pm »
0

Is Jackpot supposed to say "you may call this, for +$3," or is it supposed to be required? Also, what is this "Suburb" card you refer to that combos well with Saddle?
Yes, it's on purpose that jackpot does not have a you may. Suburb is a card of co0kiel0rds.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #121 on: September 04, 2016, 01:17:34 pm »
+1

Then I fail to see why Jackpot is a Reserve.
It could just be a Duration like Archive that stays in play for 3 turns, provides 1 this turn, 2 next turn and 3 in the turn after the next turn.

I think it is far too strong for 4. Archive is a Double Lab smeared over 3 turns at a cost of 5 whereas Jackout provides 6 coins smeared over 3 turns at a cost of 4. You can also compare it to Merchant Ship. For giving up 1 Coin in the current turn you get 3 Coins two turns later. This is probably good more often than not so Jackpot has to cost at least 5.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #122 on: September 04, 2016, 01:31:34 pm »
+1

Then I fail to see why Jackpot is a Reserve.
It could just be a Duration like Archive that stays in play for 3 turns, provides 1 this turn, 2 next turn and 3 in the turn after the next turn.
Tracking issues. If you play 2 this turn, you have one in play from 2 turns ago, and one from last turn, it's a pain. This has a built-in tracking mechanism.

It could be too good for , but it's + now, which equals abandoned mine. Next turn it gives + which is decent, but no OP. Then it gives which is amazing. But this comes at the cost, that it misses 3x as many shuffles.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #123 on: September 04, 2016, 01:37:23 pm »
+1

Doesn't seem to be more complicated to track than Archive and trivial compared to Throne Room (variant) tracking.
I don't think that a card should get an extra type just to make tracking easier.

You make a good point about missing more shuffles than an ordinary Duration but I still think that this is roughly comparable in strength to Merchant Ship. At a price of 4 you can always open with it, play it (most likely) on turn 3 or 4 and even if it misses the second shuffle you get a total of 6 coins. That's brilliant in the early game.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #124 on: September 04, 2016, 01:43:59 pm »
+1

If you have multiple Jackpot's out, tracking is a bitch.

Archive auto-tracks: it has cards under/near it.

Jackpot is strong, but playtesting (I think I have a version of that card for close to a year now) has never revealed it to be superpowerful. Missing shiffles really hurts.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #125 on: September 05, 2016, 05:30:20 pm »
+2

Jackpot can be tracked with Journey token:

+1$
At the start of your next turn, +1$ and flip your Journey token over (it starts face up). If it's face down, play this again. If it's face up, +2$.

It gets weird with multiple Jackpots. But I don't like being required to call this. You can easily forget it there on your mat with all the Wine Merchants, and then after 2 turns you remember and you get in a fight with your friends over what to do.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #126 on: September 05, 2016, 05:31:56 pm »
+2

On another note, Saddle looks pretty bad. Discarding actions is much worse than discarding Treasures, of which you already have 7 to begin with.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #127 on: September 05, 2016, 06:29:07 pm »
+1

On another note, Saddle looks pretty bad. Discarding actions is much worse than discarding Treasures, of which you already have 7 to begin with.

It should discard VP cards. You start with 3 of those. Also, why not get a few more or earlier, at least you can saddle those Duchies and ride to Provinceland. Of course it's a bit similar to Baron, then.

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #128 on: September 05, 2016, 06:33:22 pm »
+2

On another note, Saddle looks pretty bad. Discarding actions is much worse than discarding Treasures, of which you already have 7 to begin with.

It should discard VP cards. You start with 3 of those. Also, why not get a few more or earlier, at least you can saddle those Duchies and ride to Provinceland. Of course it's a bit similar to Baron, then.

Someone has this already. It's called 'heir', not sure whose it is. Maybe you? or lastfootnote? don't remember.

Saddle works pretty good, to be honest. What it does, is you don't feel bad for overbuying terminals as much. It's significantly cheaper than Stables (4 and 5 is a pretty big difference). Sometimes it's a dud, but it has been proven to be quite good in some cases.

Also, saddling saddles is also not a particularly bad thing. Sure, it's a laboratory, but it has the added benefit of (1) only costing $4 (twice) and some flexibility in the amount of terminals you buy in the absence (or presence) of villages.

Really, playtesting has shown that (so far) that is a good card at the appropriate power level.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #129 on: September 05, 2016, 06:34:44 pm »
+1

Jackpot can be tracked with Journey token:

+1$
At the start of your next turn, +1$ and flip your Journey token over (it starts face up). If it's face down, play this again. If it's face up, +2$.

It gets weird with multiple Jackpots. But I don't like being required to call this. You can easily forget it there on your mat with all the Wine Merchants, and then after 2 turns you remember and you get in a fight with your friends over what to do.

I am not sure this is not the sickest of all combos with any of the other journey token cards. I don't think I dislike it though!

If you can play ranger everyturn, that's +$2, +5 cards every turn.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2016, 06:50:23 pm by AdrianHealey »
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #130 on: September 05, 2016, 07:03:29 pm »
+1

On another note, Saddle looks pretty bad. Discarding actions is much worse than discarding Treasures, of which you already have 7 to begin with.

It should discard VP cards. You start with 3 of those. Also, why not get a few more or earlier, at least you can saddle those Duchies and ride to Provinceland. Of course it's a bit similar to Baron, then.

Someone has this already. It's called 'heir', not sure whose it is. Maybe you? or lastfootnote? don't remember.

It was my card, which was also a Baron variant. I killed that one a while ago because it felt like the requirements were to specific. It is that perspective from which it seemed that giving a bonus for any VP card might work better.

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #131 on: September 05, 2016, 07:08:53 pm »
+2

On another note, Saddle looks pretty bad. Discarding actions is much worse than discarding Treasures, of which you already have 7 to begin with.

It should discard VP cards. You start with 3 of those. Also, why not get a few more or earlier, at least you can saddle those Duchies and ride to Provinceland. Of course it's a bit similar to Baron, then.

Someone has this already. It's called 'heir', not sure whose it is. Maybe you? or lastfootnote? don't remember.

It was my card, which was also a Baron variant. I killed that one a while ago because it felt like the requirements were to specific. It is that perspective from which it seemed that giving a bonus for any VP card might work better.

Wouldn't Heir work with 'You may discard a victory card for +3 Cards. If you did, you may discard a victory card for +1 Action. If you did, you may discard a victory card: +$3'? Maybe the order can differ, though.

I do remember the estate/duchy requirement was not easy to get too, but we had a few fun games with it.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #132 on: September 05, 2016, 07:32:47 pm »
+1

On another note, Saddle looks pretty bad. Discarding actions is much worse than discarding Treasures, of which you already have 7 to begin with.

It should discard VP cards. You start with 3 of those. Also, why not get a few more or earlier, at least you can saddle those Duchies and ride to Provinceland. Of course it's a bit similar to Baron, then.

Someone has this already. It's called 'heir', not sure whose it is. Maybe you? or lastfootnote? don't remember.

It was my card, which was also a Baron variant. I killed that one a while ago because it felt like the requirements were to specific. It is that perspective from which it seemed that giving a bonus for any VP card might work better.

Wouldn't Heir work with 'You may discard a victory card for +3 Cards. If you did, you may discard a victory card for +1 Action. If you did, you may discard a victory card: +$3'? Maybe the order can differ, though.

I do remember the estate/duchy requirement was not easy to get too, but we had a few fun games with it.

Huh, so i can only get the +$3 if i discard two times before that... I'll think about that.

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #133 on: September 05, 2016, 07:34:49 pm »
+1

And 2 vps = great cycling (a net of 0 additional cards). So it could probably be at $4.

If you open with it and draw that you have all 3 estates in your hand = $7 purchasing power.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2016, 07:36:52 pm by AdrianHealey »
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #134 on: September 05, 2016, 07:44:14 pm »
+1

If you can play ranger everyturn, that's +$2, +5 cards every turn.
Huh? Ranger doesn't provide a coin but a buy. What you probably meant that if you play two Rangers they provide 2 Buys and 5 Cards.
Don't see the big insight though, it is just what the card does. ^^

About Jackpot, it is like Archive a double Duration and not a Reserve. It makes no sense at all to give the card the Reserve type. Tracking doesn't become easier just because you put the card on the Tavern mat as this is the only card with mandatory calling so it could easily be forgotten.
You can put tokens on it or turn the card or whatever if you need help with tracking.

I seriously doubt that a card which, relative to Merchant Ship, sacrifices 1 coin at turn one for the sake of 3 extra coins at turn 3 is worse than that benchmark card.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #135 on: September 05, 2016, 07:57:38 pm »
0

Just to chip in, I found saddle is a weaker 4 outside of amazing combos. Maybe it should cost 3, but the idea is sound and it's a fun card to try to get to work. It has some great synergies: Ruins, Suburb, Rats, Necropolis, Chapel, Excess terminals, and more broadly cards you don't always want to play, Trashers and Discarders.

Oh, and I'm not a fan of having Jackpot use the journey token. I like to stick with a card until I realize it won't work. I'm not a fan of changing a perfectly good card to another perfectly good card. It gets you nowhere. Now if Jackpot is a perfectly good card, that remains to be seen.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2016, 08:14:09 pm by ThetaSigma12 »
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #136 on: September 05, 2016, 08:55:35 pm »
+1

Saddle isn't exciting and like TR (variants) you can only buy it after some time, after you have a decent Action density but as a conditional cheaper Lab the card seems totally fine.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #137 on: September 10, 2016, 07:54:48 am »
0


And now for a very weird card, that more showcases a concept than an actual card. The idea started out as simply that I loved the colors, and wanted them to stay without a double line. So escort was created.

See above, the card still needs tweaks but the idea should be sound. It does need a Once per turn:, so just imagine it's there and I'll post a version with it with the rest of the updated cards.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2016, 07:56:23 am by ThetaSigma12 »
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #138 on: September 10, 2016, 08:18:44 am »
+1

So with Escort, going by the wording, if another player gains a Province, you can set it aside and immediately call it, right? Kinda like Fool's Gold.

I see a problem with "Escort stacks", where you both set a bunch of Escorts aside and then noone ever wants to buy a Province. Then again, it could be interesting. What I don't like though is that 2 Escorts set aside means you can always offset the point gain from Province by gaining 2 Duchies. The overall concept is interesting.

Decay has too much going on I think. Get a buy, attack other players and cost reduction, all for <4>? +buy and cost reduction alone basically gives $2 back already. The attack is probably designed to be pretty weak, but with other discarders, you can force your opponent into a Torturer decision.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2016, 08:21:18 am by faust »
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #139 on: September 10, 2016, 08:43:28 am »
+1

Isn't the gain "to your deck" part of Escort superfluous? Were else to you naturally gain cards to? Decay seems rally neat, though.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #140 on: September 10, 2016, 10:38:40 am »
+2

Escort is and incredibly slow Gold gainer with its two conditions.
Decay is plain brilliant.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #141 on: September 10, 2016, 11:10:30 am »
0

Isn't the gain "to your deck" part of Escort superfluous? Were else to you naturally gain cards to? Decay seems rally neat, though.
Your discard pile?
So with Escort, going by the wording, if another player gains a Province, you can set it aside and immediately call it, right? Kinda like Fool's Gold.

I see a problem with "Escort stacks", where you both set a bunch of Escorts aside and then noone ever wants to buy a Province. Then again, it could be interesting. What I don't like though is that 2 Escorts set aside means you can always offset the point gain from Province by gaining 2 Duchies. The overall concept is interesting.

Decay has too much going on I think. Get a buy, attack other players and cost reduction, all for <4>? +buy and cost reduction alone basically gives $2 back already. The attack is probably designed to be pretty weak, but with other discarders, you can force your opponent into a Torturer decision.
Yes, you can call immediately with province.

The way escort is worded you can only call one: "You may call an Escort"

Decay might be better if it gave .
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #142 on: September 10, 2016, 11:19:43 am »
+1

Wouldn't eqcort work be cool As the top of a splitpile that did something with procinces?
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #143 on: September 10, 2016, 12:39:10 pm »
+1

The way escort is worded you can only call one: "You may call an Escort"

Maybe it technically would work that way (I'm not sure), but it's quite hidden and goes contrary to how all other Reserves work.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #144 on: September 10, 2016, 03:30:13 pm »
+1

Isn't the gain "to your deck" part of Escort superfluous? Were else to you naturally gain cards to? Decay seems rally neat, though.
Your discard pile?

Oh, yeah, I misread the OP. Does "to your deck" mean on top or shuffled into your deck?
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #145 on: September 10, 2016, 05:10:27 pm »
+1

Thanks for the credit, guys :) I want to give some feedback on the cards but I'll wait until the OP has been updated so I can see all currently revealed cards in one place.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #146 on: September 10, 2016, 11:37:24 pm »
+1

Which template do you use?
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #147 on: September 11, 2016, 07:09:20 am »
0

Which template do you use?
When these cards were made, they used Co0kiel0rd;s prefecture/annual plan template, GeneralRamos's event template, and versions of GeneralRamos's other templates, with darker borders.

I'm hoping to redo the events with Aspers's template.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #148 on: September 11, 2016, 11:25:05 am »
+1

Which template do you use?
When these cards were made, they used Co0kiel0rd;s prefecture/annual plan template, GeneralRamos's event template, and versions of GeneralRamos's other templates, with darker borders.

I'm hoping to redo the events with Aspers's template.

Is there a link for these?
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #149 on: September 14, 2016, 01:06:34 pm »
0





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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #150 on: September 14, 2016, 03:18:09 pm »
+1

@Theta- I recognize the art from Exchange, I just can't place it. Were is it from?

Looks good as always  :).
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #151 on: September 14, 2016, 04:13:19 pm »
0

@Theta- I recognize the art from Exchange, I just can't place it. Were is it from?

Looks good as always  :).
@Theta- The art for Brick RoadExchange is from Settlers of Catan, right?
Yes.

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #152 on: September 15, 2016, 03:57:09 am »
+1

Barbarian is similar to Hoard. Of course Hoard has the advantage that it is a a Treasure and that you can regularly play it (i.e when you buy it and play it the first time even without getting a Victory card and a Gold this is not a big issue) whereas Barbarian could sit on the Tavern mat for too long. You could also miss the "tipping point" in a game without extra buys where you did not go for Barbarian early on, generate in all turns more than 3 and wanna buy something better.
So 3 seems like an OK price. I'd also test it at 4 though.

Exchange is good and IMO the best implementation of your Ruins junking idea that has been present in several of your cards.

About Progress, the other player always have an incentive to flash, even in a 3 or 4 player game.
So most often this is worse than a Lab. You only get a Double Lab if, in a 3P game, both other players and you flashed ... but this is just Governor with the draw option and your Double Lab is mitigated by the fact that the other two guys could drew a card.
Of course Lab is so good that a card which is virtually always worse than Lab is OK for 5. But I cannot imagine anyone going for Progress with Lab in the Kingdom.


About Philosophers, it is the first version of Steward but I think that it is borderline viable due to the overpay. Probably still a fairly bland card but that's not the end of the world. With the overpay you can easily get 2 for 4 and this might create enough flexibility in Kingdoms without drawing or extra buys or even without a village.

Quote
Steward: The first version of this gave you a choice between +2 Actions/Buys/Cards/coins. It wasn't interesting enough, so I traded in the Actions and Buys for trashing two cards.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #153 on: September 23, 2016, 10:04:29 am »
+1

All the current (first version) cards are updated in the second post, as you wished Theta. :)

Here is what I would change, based on the feedback:

- There are two good suggestions for bladesmith, I think. My proposal and the 'reveal 4 cards, discard bladesmiths'. I'd like to test both.
- Equestrian Village: I'd remove the 'you may discard' or change it to: '+2 Actions. Either draw a card or discard a card./// WHen there is at least 1 equestrian village in play: when you discard a card from your hand: +$1.'
- Exchange needs the 'A differently named card' clause.
- I am uncertain about progress. Maybe we should lower it towards $4 not that it's almost always strictly worse than lab?
- Not a fan of escort as it is.
- I am sad that Barbarian doesn't have the attack clause anymore. I wonder if it needs a +1 Action now. It doesn't feel strong atm.

What are your thoughts after the feedback?
« Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 10:11:22 am by AdrianHealey »
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #154 on: September 23, 2016, 10:17:06 am »
+1



Only a few cards left!

The first time you play it (assuming no one has any tokens): +4 cards! And everyone gets these negative tokens, awesome!

The second time you play it (let's say you have a village in play): +2 cards. :(

So yeah, it has an anti-synergy.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 10:22:05 am by AdrianHealey »
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #155 on: September 23, 2016, 10:26:11 am »
+1

If anyone wants to take the time giving his overview of the cards (pretend it's a card competition :p), that would be nice! :)
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #156 on: September 23, 2016, 10:56:22 am »
+1

I like Robber. It reminds me of an idea I had:

Quote
Name
2 - Action
+3 Cards

Put your -1 Card Token on top of your deck.

which I liked a little better as

Quote
Name
4 - Action - Attack
+3 Cards

Each player puts their -1 Card Token on top of their deck.

Robber seems to be a better implementation of especially the latter idea.

Barbarian seems to be fine at .
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #157 on: September 23, 2016, 11:33:11 am »
+2

You will always lose your -1 card token (if you had it) from Robber's first +3 cards, right? So an easier way to phrase it is this:

+3 cards
Each player takes their -1$ token.
If you did, +1 card.
Each player puts their -1 card token on top of their deck.

I like the card.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #158 on: September 23, 2016, 11:35:53 am »
+1

You will always lose your -1 card token (if you had it) from Robber's first +3 cards, right? So an easier way to phrase it is this:

+3 cards
Each player takes their -1$ token.
If you did, +1 card.
Each player puts their -1 card token on top of their deck.

I like the card.

Indeed, this does functionaly the same. Good catch.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #159 on: September 23, 2016, 11:37:44 am »
0

You will always lose your -1 card token (if you had it) from Robber's first +3 cards, right? So an easier way to phrase it is this:

+3 cards
Each player takes their -1$ token.
If you did, +1 card.
Each player puts their -1 card token on top of their deck.

I like the card.
Thanks, somehow I missed that.

Once all the cards are previewed, and everyone who wants to post feedback does, I'll update the cards.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #160 on: September 23, 2016, 11:51:30 am »
+1

Excellent. I think there are only a few left, right?
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #161 on: September 23, 2016, 12:51:51 pm »
+1

Question: What stops player 1 from buying a million Decays on turn 1 and buying the whole supply?
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #162 on: September 23, 2016, 12:55:18 pm »
0

Question: What stops player 1 from buying a million Decays on turn 1 and buying the whole supply?
The imaginary Once per turn: clause that I mentioned I forgot to add.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #163 on: September 23, 2016, 12:56:08 pm »
+1

Question: What stops player 1 from buying a million Decays on turn 1 and buying the whole supply?
The imaginary Once per turn: clause that I mentioned I forgot to add.

Ah, right.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #164 on: September 23, 2016, 12:58:58 pm »
0

2 more left.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #165 on: October 02, 2016, 07:55:06 am »
0



Here's the last, 2, I'll make a big post to finish up the thread soon.

EDIT: Gallery should cost , whoops. Try to fix that later tonight.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2016, 07:58:14 am by ThetaSigma12 »
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #166 on: October 02, 2016, 08:26:19 am »
+1

I think Settlement is really cool. Kind of like a reverse-Distant Lands, but it still works. Haven't played with Debt, so I'm not sure about Gallery, but it could work.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #167 on: October 02, 2016, 12:47:34 pm »
+1



Here's the last, 2, I'll make a big post to finish up the thread soon.

EDIT: Gallery should cost , whoops. Try to fix that later tonight.

Gallery doesn't need to say "you may." "Up to <5>" includes <0>.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #168 on: October 02, 2016, 12:48:23 pm »
+1



Here's the last, 2, I'll make a big post to finish up the thread soon.

EDIT: Gallery should cost , whoops. Try to fix that later tonight.

Gallery doesn't need to say "you may." "Up to <5>" includes <0>.

And -5
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #169 on: October 02, 2016, 03:40:41 pm »
+1


And now for a very weird card, that more showcases a concept than an actual card. The idea started out as simply that I loved the colors, and wanted them to stay without a double line. So escort was created.
I know its a little late, but I just realized that you wouldn't need a double line. The line exists to separate effects that have an implied "When you play this" and effects that don't. So really, to keep the colors, you just need to have two paragraphs below the dividing line. And this card should have the dividing line moved above all the text.  ;D
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #170 on: October 03, 2016, 03:02:56 am »
+1

Whilen -> When

Furthermore Gallery compares far too favourably to Distant Lands. You basically gotta pay 7 (Peddler is balanced at 4 so the net costs of the VPs is 2 Coins and 5 Debt) for 5VPs so the VP/cost ratio is slightly worse than that of Distant Lands ... but you run no risk as you get the VPs immediately and you have no card in your deck that you gotta draw and play (spend an Action) or keep (if you wanna compare this to Province's 6VP for 8 Coins).

The only potential serious disadvantage is that you might not want all those Peddlers in your deck.



tavern -> Tavern

Settlement is fairly weak as an Action-Victory Card. 1,5VP and an effect which is, mainly due to its terminality, probably on average not better than Harem's Silver.
So as a mere hybrid card it is more often than not weaker than Harem. But of course there is the second option and the VP thing is more of a hedge against not using the one-shot than something you want strive for in itself.

The one-shot liquidation option is like playing a Market and 4 Peddlers and similar to a one-shot economy booster like Pillage. With TR (variants) on the board it becomes quite strong.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #171 on: October 03, 2016, 07:52:37 am »
0

Yeah, I probably should of double-checked for typos more, but I just wanted to post these quick while I had the window.

Anways, today I'll begin re-doing all of them.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #172 on: October 03, 2016, 08:01:18 am »
+1

Hety theta, do you mind giving me the new versions-text before you redo them all? Just to doublecheck the changes.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #173 on: October 03, 2016, 08:11:39 am »
0

Whilen -> When

Furthermore Gallery compares far too favourably to Distant Lands. You basically gotta pay 7 (Peddler is balanced at 4 so the net costs of the VPs is 2 Coins and 5 Debt) for 5VPs so the VP/cost ratio is slightly worse than that of Distant Lands ... but you run no risk as you get the VPs immediately and you have no card in your deck that you gotta draw and play (spend an Action) or keep (if you wanna compare this to Province's 6VP for 8 Coins).

The only potential serious disadvantage is that you might not want all those Peddlers in your deck.

I'm not sure i understand your point here. From how i read it, Gallery would have to be bought for $5 and <4> to be worth as many VP as Distand Lands. For that price point, you can buy a Province in the late game. Sure, Distant Lands isn't a Peddler, but after playing it once, it's removed from your deck entirely and also doesn't stop your deck anymore - it shouldn't be compared to a normal terminal. Gallery provides a coin, but that just makes up for the worse VP. Overall, i'd say that $5 for Gallery is a suitable price point. Compare it to Mill, and you have to pay $7 for it to be strictly better. Or Great Hall, where you have to pay $6 for this. None of these compares too favourably for Gallery in my opinion. Another very important point is that Gallery gets good only when you have enough coins to spend. If you make $5 every turn, Gallery is a far worse deal than Distant Lands. Of course, if you make 10$ each turn, you might want to get Gallery instead - although you'd also have to consider just emptying the Province pile at that point.

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #174 on: October 03, 2016, 08:59:06 am »
0

Hmm, we thought gallery needed to be 6 because it seemed so much better than Duchy.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #175 on: October 03, 2016, 09:14:39 am »
+1

Hmm, we thought gallery needed to be 6 because it seemed so much better than Duchy.

Well, if you buy it for $5, it's not better than Duchy at all.

Although, now that i think of it, a similar card was attempted before, which used overpay instead. The base card costed $5 and was worth 1VP, but offered no other bonus besides being a cantrip. I felt it was okay, too, but some people argued that you'd just overbuild more and more to get the max out of it. I don't think this really works, but maybe i misunderstood the concerns back then. Either way, probably straight overpay would have been the better solution here. It also means you don't need to limit the amount of extra money you can spend as much and comparisons as well as balance become easier to evaluate.

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #176 on: October 03, 2016, 10:58:58 am »
+3

Peddler is balanced at 4

Actually although we've all been saying this for years, Poacher seems to imply that Peddler is just very slightly too strong at .
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #177 on: October 03, 2016, 11:11:02 am »
+1

Sure, a hypothetical pure Peddler would always have been a good 4$, just like Lab has always been an extremly good 5$.

About the Duchy thingy, given that the one gains VP tokens and the other is a grenn card I don't see how Gallery could be easily compared to Duchy. Getting a Peddler and 5 VPs for 6$ and 5D sounds like a pretty sweet deal to me and in most Kingdoms you probably could not ignore Gallery. Then again 6$ Actions can rarely be ignored in any Kingdom and 7$ is too much for Gallery.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #178 on: October 03, 2016, 12:18:19 pm »
+1

Here is the thoughtproces for Gallery.

What happens if you pay...

$6? => You gain a peddler and 0 VP, 0 Debt. Well, that sounds like pretty bad value for money. I mean, a peddler for $6? what is this? A peddler of gold?
If you pay $6 and take one debt, you also get an estate worth of VP. Well, not great, but it's something.

The 'best' value for money, is when you pay $6 and take 5 debt. You get 5 VP, which is worse than a province, and you just paid $11 in total (maybe spread over two turns, maybe not). Sure, you get a peddler in stead of a province, which doesn't stop your deck, but still. That's $3 more that you paid than for a province, and you get 1 VP less. All in all, it seems ok to me. Maybe on the strong side, but definitely not a must go to card. It probably will make games slightly longer, which I think is a good thing. I am not a huge fan of rush-games.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #179 on: October 03, 2016, 01:31:51 pm »
+1

One less dead card in your deck is a non-trivial thing. This is why in the middlegame those 5 VPs can easily beat buying a Province. Sure 6$ and 5D could be "more" than 8C but you might not wanna green yet and want a little bit of extra economy going via that Peddler. Also, in the absence of extra buys if you hit 10$ or 11$ Gallery is a no-brainer over Province in the middlegame.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #180 on: October 03, 2016, 02:13:15 pm »
+2

Sure, a hypothetical pure Peddler would always have been a good 4$, just like Lab has always been an extremly good 5$.

About the Duchy thingy, given that the one gains VP tokens and the other is a grenn card I don't see how Gallery could be easily compared to Duchy. Getting a Peddler and 5 VPs for 6$ and 5D sounds like a pretty sweet deal to me and in most Kingdoms you probably could not ignore Gallery. Then again 6$ Actions can rarely be ignored in any Kingdom and 7$ is too much for Gallery.
Lab isn't a "extremly good 5$"
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #181 on: October 03, 2016, 02:29:00 pm »
+4

I think that replacing the dept-gaining aspect with a simple Guilds-like overpay effect at (5+) should fix Gallery. Victory points for depts are not a good idea. Imagine, there are already two empty piles and you buy a Gallery and call 9 Duplicates. 50 depts don't hurt you. There is also an issue with Ferry and Ironworks/Workshop. Altar or University also become crazy. And last, but not least, there is the golden deck: King's Court, Remodel, three Galleries ... Changing the effect to "if you buy ... you may overpay" fixes this.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2016, 02:34:20 pm by King Leon »
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #182 on: October 03, 2016, 05:27:27 pm »
0

I'm pretty sure the effect is on-buy, but I already made 2 typos on it...
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #183 on: October 03, 2016, 07:20:05 pm »
+1

The effect is meant on buy yes
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #184 on: October 03, 2016, 10:34:29 pm »
+2

Yeah, I probably should of double-checked for typos more, but I just wanted to post these quick while I had the window.
I don't think I want my wordings checked by someone who writes "should of" instead of "should have"... :P

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #185 on: October 04, 2016, 07:07:43 am »
+1

Yeah, I probably should of double-checked for typos more, but I just wanted to post these quick while I had the window.
I don't think I want my wordings checked by someone who writes "should of" instead of "should have"... :P
Sorry everyone, it's been a hectic week. I hope you can understand... Anyways the final cards will be 100%* typo free.


*90%-93% anyways.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #186 on: October 14, 2016, 06:44:28 pm »
+1

Pro-tip: Don't open tailer. Man, that was a mistake. (Unless there is like a $5 or $2 awesome trasher. The only trasher was Steward, and that was just too late.)
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #187 on: October 23, 2016, 04:24:03 pm »
+1


So here it is. Based on feedback I've redone all the cards. The following cards have only wording or cosmetic changes:


Bounty:

This one never got previewed, because it was finished later. It's a quadruple peddler next turn, and it gives +2 Buys so you can deal with all that money. It might be to weak for , but it's tenatively plriced there for now.
Jackpot:

I removed the Reserve type, as it felt too extrenuous. Right now it has some tracking built in, with setting aside and discarding. In the end it might just be the vanilla + then + then + and let you track it however you want to though.
Manuscripts:

Just an art change and a slight rename. I wasn't happy with the old art, I had chosen it really fast beacuse I noticed a flaw in the previous art last-minute. It was originally Treaty.
Settlement:

I decided to take this one back to it's roots. Now it's an old fashioned trade-off. 5 for isn't bad, and you can tfb the Duchy and keep 2. Or you can keep it around as a Herbalist-Duchy, who knows, maybe it's the only +Buy.
Establishment:

The new Valley. I changed it for better art, more thematic, and so I could use valley for a top-secret project. Functionally it's the same.
Anvil:

The new Bladesmith, this discards your Anvils instead of trashing them. The art was changed for 2 reasons, I used part of it for Munitions and Bladesmith is a card of LFN's.
Cavalry:

Now is an attack and only draws up to 4 cards in hand.
Decay:

Stuff. Made the attack stronger, added once per turn, and make it give instead of .
Equestrian Village:

Now is less absurd, but it might need another nerf, such as only the first played Equestrian Village gives you .
Dusk Village:

Not a lot of functional change, but it is less wordy and I found the artist's name.
Gallery:

Costs and less typos (Unlike Apser, I'm not good at making cards and 2 AM).
Homecoming:

Less harsh, each player can choose what token they move. This might be too weak for though.
Saddle:

Now always gives +1 Action. And new art.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2016, 08:04:54 am by ThetaSigma12 »
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #188 on: October 23, 2016, 06:08:22 pm »
+2

Dusk Village is cwazy. You can safely run 2 cantrip attacks in your deck that are cheaper than Familiar and provide an Action as cherry on the top.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #189 on: October 23, 2016, 06:23:37 pm »
+1

Dusk village used to put things in your hand. I stilll think it should.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #190 on: October 24, 2016, 03:58:46 am »
+1

Dusk village used to put things in your hand. I stilll think it should.
That would make it much more viable. As it stands it is to my eyes first and above all a cantrip junker with the village being more of a secondary function.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #191 on: October 24, 2016, 04:43:39 am »
+1

There are several reasons why my version junked to hand:

(1) Discard for benefit cards become stronger
(2) Trashing is stronger as a defense
(3) If you get a copper junked, at least you can immediately use it for increased buying power

It's still a very strong junker, along the lines of cultist/mountebank. And, annoyingly, it will create slogs where villages are less useful. Which fits the theme of the expansion: cards that don't synergize with themselves.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #192 on: October 24, 2016, 08:02:43 am »
0

*Edit* Why bother gaining the curse to their hand? All it does is make the attack very slightly weaker while adding a few extra words.
Going off this. I mean, there's some more room now I could always switch it back.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #193 on: October 24, 2016, 08:11:05 am »
+1

The attack is strong enough imo to make it slightly weaker. The copper is more important to gain to your hand, obviously.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #194 on: November 02, 2016, 01:23:55 pm »
+1

Just tought I'd put this out there:

I've started working on the next expansion. This one is mainly my endeavor. It's a lot of work, and since it introduces 3 hefty new mechanichs (2 new card types and a new type of landscape cards) it's a lot to playtest. Therefore I'm asking that anybody interested in helping playtest, giving a few ideas, and chipping in their 2 cents would PM. Thanks!
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #195 on: November 04, 2016, 11:28:14 am »
0

Dusk Village: I'll change this to gaining the Copper to hand. I won't do it with the Curse yet to save complexity.

Market Day: Still not happy with the art.

Scenic Village: My next iteration will be "You may play any number of Acitons this turn". It's simple, and doesn't have any tracking issues.

Tailor and Philosophers: There's no real theme here. Phislosophers should maybe be "Overseer" or "Caretaker" to reflect steward. Tailor might not even stay very long, it's just not that cool. Banquet is more interesting and Multitalented's Exotic Traders is a more interesting way to gain cards. Artisan, Altar, and Asper's Minister all do very simmlilar things for .
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #196 on: November 04, 2016, 11:31:07 am »
+1

Dusk Village: I'll change this to gaining the Copper to hand. I won't do it with the Curse yet to save complexity.

Market Day: Still not happy with the art.

Scenic Village: My next iteration will be "You may play any number of Acitons this turn". It's simple, and doesn't have any tracking issues.

Tailor and Philosophers: There's no real theme here. Phislosophers should maybe be "Overseer" or "Caretaker" to reflect steward. Tailor might not even stay very long, it's just not that cool. Banquet is more interesting and Multitalented's Exotic Traders is a more interesting way to gain cards. Artisan, Altar, and Asper's Minister all do very simmlilar things for .

I mean, have you played with tailor? It's a high skill card (imo), but it works quite well. Haven't played with banquet, though. Maybe it overlaps too much.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #197 on: November 04, 2016, 11:37:55 am »
0

It's pretty high skill, but it overlaps too much with all kinds of cards. It's not the card, it's the idea.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #198 on: November 06, 2016, 03:25:22 pm »
0

I don't like how Cavalry discards for both players. It only really works if you have a junky deck and your opponet doesn't, which isn't something that is really encouraged. I'd like it better if it gave you 1 instead.

Stronghold is now an outtake, it doesn't fit as much in the set. It's still a good card though.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #199 on: November 06, 2016, 04:21:28 pm »
+1

Market Day: Still not happy with the art.

How about one of these images for Market Day?

Une faire au Moyen Age


Village Fair by Mostaert Dorfkirmes


The Foreign Market by RhysGriffiths


City Market by Edarneor (probably would need some cropping)


Medieval Town by RobinTran

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #200 on: November 06, 2016, 05:53:58 pm »
0

I've seen the Foreign Market a lot, and I'll probably use that for the next rendition.

The first one is good but a little bit not my prefferd style, same with 2 and 4. 5 is good but not markety enough.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #201 on: November 16, 2016, 09:44:18 am »
0

Version 1.2 is out!
General Changes:
-Listed the creator like I do with all of my cards. It's either me or Adrian, and I listed (Modded) if I felt I had changed one of Adrian's cards a signficant amount.
-I added 4 new cards and made a few outtakes.


Significant Changes:

Back to unlimited actions.

Similar to Asper's parilment. It's one heck of a setup effect and even if you never buy it it makes games really interesting.

Originally meant for Innovation, I moved it here so I could focus more on the new mechaninchs for innovation. Anyways, this is a cool one. It's meant to exchange things, if you don't wan't a card you can can get a free +2 Cards instead. It comes with a small workshop ability so it's not that dead.

Cavalry got a significant change, it now gives out instead of discarding. As I said before I didn't like how you both had to discard. Now you can give out , but you'll have to part with a lot of your hand. Maybe too good now? I dropped the draw-to-x to make it simpler.

A simpler version of a really old concept.

Manuscripts now lets you choose which Action to throne next turn. The discarding from play isn't the most desirous way to do it, but it's simple and it has no effect once you've discarded it so it's nice to track.

Cottage is also new. It's the hamlet! Originally it let you play a treasure then spend , but this is simpler. I tenatively put it at because it seemed better then hamlet, but who knows.

Observatory now discards the cards. It's shorter and better.

I completly overhalled River. It had grown way to complex as more and more had to be added. Now it's simple. You draw 2 cards, get an extra random bonus, and can play a bunch of Ruins for free if your deck if full of them.

I didn't add the gaining to hand still for simplicity, but I swapped the Copper and Curse gaining. Now you need at least 2 to actually do any cursing.

Overseer is the new philosophers. Now I like the theme with Steward and the art similarity to Pawn.

Yes, it's crazy. Even if you never buy it with it's cost of it still will start your deck off with more junk, and it will start with some of the Estates drained. It's definently a good 3 pile card.

In memory of Asper. And because I felt like Civ could use a .

Decay I thought would be better giving as you can't pay it off. I also moved the +2 Buys in the Once per turn: to prevent unlimited buys.

(Hopefully) the final art change!

It's a little cheaper at now.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #202 on: November 16, 2016, 05:31:37 pm »
+1

Thanks for making (& improving) finished versions of all these cards. I plan to print many of them out for my own use.

Here are a few suggested corrections of typos and inconsistencies:
  • Anvil – Last line of text should read “…back onto your deck in any order.”
  • Bounty – Remove “When you play this,” since every card has an implicit “When you play this”
  • Celebration – You might want to replace the last sentence with “You may trash this. If you do, play this again.”  (Urchin uses this wording).
  • Coins – Remove “When you play this,”
  • Gallery – I would add a bit more space before and after the <5> debt symbol.
  • Progress – Might change “If nobody revealed…” to “If no one revealed…” (Compare with wording of Tournament)
  • Settlement – Add space between the first VP icon and the word “if”
  • Trading Vessle – The correct spelling is Vessel
  • Cavalry – Add space between “takes” and <1> debt symbol
  • Siege – Add space between [1] coin symbol and “if”
  • Manuscripts – Remove the extra space character between “Action” and “from” on first line.
  • Cottage – Add space before and after first <1> debt symbol
  • Dusk Village – There should be three period characters after “If this is the” (to make an ellipsis)
  • Decay – Add space between “take” and <4> debt symbol
« Last Edit: November 16, 2016, 05:33:39 pm by Thanar »
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #203 on: November 16, 2016, 05:40:40 pm »
0

Thanks for making (& improving) finished versions of all these cards. I plan to print many of them out for my own use.

Here are a few suggested corrections of typos and inconsistencies:
  • Anvil – Last line of text should read “…back onto your deck in any order.”
  • Bounty – Remove “When you play this,” since every card has an implicit “When you play this”
  • Celebration – You might want to replace the last sentence with “You may trash this. If you do, play this again.”  (Urchin uses this wording).
  • Coins – Remove “When you play this,”
  • Gallery – I would add a bit more space before and after the <5> debt symbol.
  • Progress – Might change “If nobody revealed…” to “If no one revealed…” (Compare with wording of Tournament)
  • Settlement – Add space between the first VP icon and the word “if”
  • Trading Vessle – The correct spelling is Vessel
  • Cavalry – Add space between “takes” and <1> debt symbol
  • Siege – Add space between [1] coin symbol and “if”
  • Manuscripts – Remove the extra space character between “Action” and “from” on first line.
  • Cottage – Add space before and after first <1> debt symbol
  • Dusk Village – There should be three period characters after “If this is the” (to make an ellipsis)
  • Decay – Add space between “take” and <4> debt symbol
Anvil, that's a typo I'll fix it
Celebration, I'll keep it as-is until I see the new Urchin.
Dusk Village, yes you're right.
Trading Vessel, typo sorry.
Progress, will do.
Manuscripts, will do.
Coins and Bounty, Nope! See Charm and basically all kingdon Treasures.
Everything esle, I'll try to add some space but it's not that high on my list as of now.

Please share your playtesting!
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #204 on: November 16, 2016, 05:56:03 pm »
+1

Ah, I never noticed that special treasures all use "When you play this". Good to know.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #205 on: November 16, 2016, 06:10:28 pm »
+2

Version 1.2 is out!

Just going to list some cards that I have problems with.

Anvil - Seems stronger than catacombs however this should be fine since catacombs as a on trash effect, however I still think Anvil is way stronger.

Gallery - Debt for victory points in a ratio of 1 for 1 seems too good.

Miner - Why does this card use the term flash instead of reveal?

Settlement - Seems way better than distant lands I know it costs 1 more but still.

Robber - Seems weak you only net 3 cards for a 5 cost while hurting everybody, including yourself.

Establishment - Cycling victory cards for +1 card +1 coin seems to strong for 4 since it lasts forever. Also this card is missing "If you do"

Scenic Village - I would leave the unlimited action effect to champion, not sure if this card is balanced for a 4 cost seems strong.

Royal Chambers - Seems really strong depending on the kingdom, the downside does not really matter since it's uncommon to buy some of each action in most kingdoms.

Bookkeeper - Seems too dependent on other cards in the kingdom.

Cottage - Seems way too weak, Worker's village only costs 1 more. random suggestion: +1 card +2 actions, You may take 1 debt for +1 Card. Cost 4.

I can't really common on any of the event cards since I don't play with events often.

Favorites: Manuscripts, River, Bounty, and Progress.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2016, 06:12:13 pm by loneXolf »
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #206 on: November 16, 2016, 06:22:23 pm »
0

Just going to list some cards that I have problems with.
Thanks!
Quote
Anvil - Seems stronger than catacombs however this should be fine since catacombs as a on trash effect, however I still think Anvil is way stronger.
Maybe. Between no on-trash and you can't chain them it seems about the same.
Quote
Gallery - Debt for victory points in a ratio of 1 for 1 seems too good.
Yes, but for a peddler is bad enough to counteract it. for 5 is not that good, even though you get a peddler.
Quote
Miner - Why does this card use the term flash instead of reveal?
So people have to reveal cards not knowing wether somebody else will reveal a copy of it. Maybe a bit too meta, but it's better.
Quote
Settlement - Seems way better than distant lands I know it costs 1 more but still.
Maybe. It's probably one of the least balanced here.
Quote
Robber - Seems weak you only net 3 cards for a 5 cost while hurting everybody, including yourself.
It's a hunting grounds then a smithy. It's not a power but it's certianly too good for .
Quote
Establishment - Cycling victory cards for +1 card +1 coin seems to strong for 4 since it lasts forever. Also this card is missing "If you do"
It turns your Victory cards into peddlers, but only one. It might be good for , but probably not bad enough to change. Do X for Y is new wording.
Quote
Scenic Village - I would leave the unlimited action effect to champion, not sure if this card is balanced for a 4 cost seems strong.
If you hate Champion already this won't change that for you, but it's balanced and definently not OP.
Quote
Royal Chambers - Seems really strong depending on the kingdom, the downside does not really matter since it's uncommon to buy some of each action in most kingdoms.
Yeah, but that's essentially all cards. Weak sometimes, strong other times.
Quote
Bookkeeper - Seems too dependent on other cards in the kingdom.
Dependent, yes, but too dependent?
Quote
Cottage - Seems way too weak, Worker's village only costs 1 more. random suggestion: +1 card +2 actions, You may take 1 debt for +1 Card. Cost 4.
If anything I'd lower it to .
Quote
Favorites: Manuscripts, River, Bounty, and Progress.
Nice!
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #207 on: November 16, 2016, 06:35:24 pm »
+1

Great work. I'll post some of my views tomorrow. :)
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #208 on: November 16, 2016, 07:32:58 pm »
+1

Quote
Quote
Gallery - Debt for victory points in a ratio of 1 for 1 seems too good.
Yes, but for a peddler is bad enough to counteract it. for 5 is not that good, even though you get a peddler.

Quote
Scenic Village - I would leave the unlimited action effect to champion, not sure if this card is balanced for a 4 cost seems strong.
If you hate Champion already this won't change that for you, but it's balanced and definently not OP.
Quote
Royal Chambers - Seems really strong depending on the kingdom, the downside does not really matter since it's uncommon to buy some of each action in most kingdoms.
Yeah, but that's essentially all cards. Weak sometimes, strong other times.
Quote
Bookkeeper - Seems too dependent on other cards in the kingdom.
Dependent, yes, but too dependent?

Gallery - I know the peddler(Around 4 to 4.5 value) is over costed, however 2 coins does not seem to hurt the ratio by that much. Since 7 coins for 5 vp tokens is a good deal generally and that's not even including debt is easier to work around then static coin costs.

Scenic Village - I don't dislike champion, my note is mostly trying to explain I don't have a good read on this card.

Royal Chambers - Let me explain further, this card is simply is any card in your discard pile that costs 4 or less twice. there are three reasons find this card strong: 1. No card in the game lets you hand pick cards from your deck or graveyard and places them into your hand. 2. This card seems stronger than Throne Room since Throne Room has to target cards from hand while Royal Chamber uses the discard pile. (I know only being able to target cards the discard pile has it's only weaknesses but this gives +1 net card and more selection most of the time) 3. The 4 or less cost requirement for royal chamber's target is really manageable since if you buy Royal chambers you had probably built your deck to complement it. Also To reply to your comment "Yeah, but that's essentially all cards. Weak sometimes, strong other times." This card seems to be build your deck around it, or don't buy a single copy.

Bookkeeper - Making a card viable in various kingdoms while balanced is part of good design choice in my mind. I said "Seems too dependent on other cards in the kingdom.", since you pretty much put two situational effects together. The workshop effect is good in kingdoms with good 2 or 3 costs you want a lot of, or in a kingdom where you want to spam silver. While the reaction effect is good in kingdoms with +buys and junker attacks. You will not find a kingdom in where you would want both effects often.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2016, 07:42:36 pm by loneXolf »
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #209 on: November 16, 2016, 10:40:11 pm »
+1

Question: how does scenic village effect your action count? If I play an action, does it cost me 1 action? How do I know how many actions I have at the end of my turn? This matters for Diadem.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #210 on: November 16, 2016, 10:46:18 pm »
+1

Question: how does scenic village effect your action count? If I play an action, does it cost me 1 action? How do I know how many actions I have at the end of my turn? This matters for Diadem.

I assume you will have zero actions left if you just played scenic village during a turn since it just lets you play a unlimited amount of actions and it does not state +infinite actions.

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #211 on: November 16, 2016, 10:51:09 pm »
+1

Question: how does scenic village effect your action count? If I play an action, does it cost me 1 action? How do I know how many actions I have at the end of my turn? This matters for Diadem.

I assume you will have zero actions left if you just played scenic village during a turn since it just lets you play a unlimited amount of actions and it does not state +infinite actions.

But what if I play scenic village, then village, then smithy? How many actions do I have, 1, 2, or infinite?
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #212 on: November 16, 2016, 10:56:58 pm »
+1

Question: how does scenic village effect your action count? If I play an action, does it cost me 1 action? How do I know how many actions I have at the end of my turn? This matters for Diadem.

I assume you will have zero actions left if you just played scenic village during a turn since it just lets you play a unlimited amount of actions and it does not state +infinite actions.

But what if I play scenic village, then village, then smithy? How many actions do I have, 1, 2, or infinite?

I would assume 2 actions left.

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #213 on: November 17, 2016, 03:47:36 am »
+1

Gallery - Debt for victory points in a ratio of 1 for 1 seems too good.
Ehm, that's not how the card works. It is rather something like "do I wanna buy a Peddler and 4 VPs for 6 Coins and 4 Debt?".
I have a hard time judging the strength of Gallery but I feel safe in claiming that in Kingdoms with extra buys you will rarely spend a huge amount for a Peddler and some VPs but instead rather buy 2 or 3 cards.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #214 on: November 17, 2016, 07:00:00 am »
+1

Scienic Village: The best comparison here is Sauna and Avanto. They both let you play actions, but neiteher takes an action. Scienic village behaves like that. When you play it you get -1 Action, so you might be at 0 actions, just as if you'd played an Avanto. Now you can play any number of Actions, like you can play actions with Sauna, at no action cost.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #215 on: November 17, 2016, 07:22:21 am »
+1

Gallery - Debt for victory points in a ratio of 1 for 1 seems too good.
Ehm, that's not how the card works. It is rather something like "do I wanna buy a Peddler and 4 VPs for 6 Coins and 4 Debt?".
I have a hard time judging the strength of Gallery but I feel safe in claiming that in Kingdoms with extra buys you will rarely spend a huge amount for a Peddler and some VPs but instead rather buy 2 or 3 cards.

You didn't see this post I assume
Quote
Gallery - I know the peddler(Around 4 to 4.5 value) is over costed, however 2 coins does not seem to hurt the ratio by that much. Since 7 coins for 5 vp tokens is a good deal generally and that's not even including debt is easier to work around then static coin costs.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2016, 07:23:34 am by loneXolf »
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #216 on: November 17, 2016, 07:29:46 am »
0

Gallery - Debt for victory points in a ratio of 1 for 1 seems too good.
Ehm, that's not how the card works. It is rather something like "do I wanna buy a Peddler and 4 VPs for 6 Coins and 4 Debt?".
I have a hard time judging the strength of Gallery but I feel safe in claiming that in Kingdoms with extra buys you will rarely spend a huge amount for a Peddler and some VPs but instead rather buy 2 or 3 cards.

You didn't see this post I assume
Quote
Gallery - I know the peddler(Around 4 to 4.5 value) is over costed, however 2 coins does not seem to hurt the ratio by that much. Since 7 coins for 5 vp tokens is a good deal generally and that's not even including debt is easier to work around then static coin costs.
Yeah, but is also harder to hit than . You don't need to just have and maybe some leftover for the , you need and maybe you sacrifce most of your next turn.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #217 on: November 17, 2016, 07:36:09 am »
+1

Gallery - Debt for victory points in a ratio of 1 for 1 seems too good.
Ehm, that's not how the card works. It is rather something like "do I wanna buy a Peddler and 4 VPs for 6 Coins and 4 Debt?".
I have a hard time judging the strength of Gallery but I feel safe in claiming that in Kingdoms with extra buys you will rarely spend a huge amount for a Peddler and some VPs but instead rather buy 2 or 3 cards.

You didn't see this post I assume
Quote
Gallery - I know the peddler(Around 4 to 4.5 value) is over costed, however 2 coins does not seem to hurt the ratio by that much. Since 7 coins for 5 vp tokens is a good deal generally and that's not even including debt is easier to work around then static coin costs.
I did and totally disagree with it as Gallery is simply not 7$ -> 5 VPs but 6 Coins and 5 Debt for a Peddler and 5 VPs. That Peddler will not be particularly useful in any way for your deck so in the presence of extra buys you will most likely rather buy two 5s or a 5 and Gold or whatever.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #218 on: November 17, 2016, 08:22:38 am »
+1

Quote
I did and totally disagree with it as Gallery is simply not 7$ -> 5 VPs but 6 Coins and 5 Debt for a Peddler and 5 VPs. That Peddler will not be particularly useful in any way for your deck so in the presence of extra buys you will most likely rather buy two 5s or a 5 and Gold or whatever.

I see this card mostly being as a victory point card, you just compared it to gold and engine/combo prices. If you wanted to gain vp with 11 coins and 2 buys you could buy a duchy and a gallery for 8 vp with 5 vp not being a dead card. Also this card seems useful to get instead of province in non trasher games since the provinces will clog up your deck.

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #219 on: November 17, 2016, 08:27:48 am »
0

Quote
I did and totally disagree with it as Gallery is simply not 7$ -> 5 VPs but 6 Coins and 5 Debt for a Peddler and 5 VPs. That Peddler will not be particularly useful in any way for your deck so in the presence of extra buys you will most likely rather buy two 5s or a 5 and Gold or whatever.

I see this card mostly being as a victory point card, you just compared it to gold and engine/combo prices. If you wanted to gain vp with 11 coins and 2 buys you could buy a duchy and a gallery for 8 vp with 5 vp not being a dead card. Also this card seems useful to get instead of province in non trasher games since the provinces will clog up your deck.
The purpose of the card is to add to your deck while you are still building, like Emporium. Yes, you might by it over provinces a lot, but it won't end the game and in the end you're not getting the same , and you're paying a lot more. If you subtract the for the pedder, it's ofr 5, which seems fair. All we're doing is adding a peddler to it to make it more interesting and at it's harder to pick up.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #220 on: November 17, 2016, 08:30:02 am »
0

Question: how does scenic village effect your action count? If I play an action, does it cost me 1 action? How do I know how many actions I have at the end of my turn? This matters for Diadem.

I assume you will have zero actions left if you just played scenic village during a turn since it just lets you play a unlimited amount of actions and it does not state +infinite actions.

But what if I play scenic village, then village, then smithy? How many actions do I have, 1, 2, or infinite?
1: You play scenic village, 0 actions
2: You play village, which spends an action but can't, the gives you 2 putting you at 2 actions.
3: You play smithy, spending an Action, giving you 1 action left for Diadem.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #221 on: November 17, 2016, 08:31:30 am »
+1

Quote
I did and totally disagree with it as Gallery is simply not 7$ -> 5 VPs but 6 Coins and 5 Debt for a Peddler and 5 VPs. That Peddler will not be particularly useful in any way for your deck so in the presence of extra buys you will most likely rather buy two 5s or a 5 and Gold or whatever.

I see this card mostly being as a victory point card, you just compared it to gold and engine/combo prices. If you wanted to gain vp with 11 coins and 2 buys you could buy a duchy and a gallery for 8 vp with 5 vp not being a dead card. Also this card seems useful to get instead of province in non trasher games since the provinces will clog up your deck.
The purpose of the card is to add to your deck while you are still building, like Emporium. Yes, you might by it over provinces a lot, but it won't end the game and in the end you're not getting the same , and you're paying a lot more. If you subtract the for the pedder, it's ofr 5, which seems fair. All we're doing is adding a peddler to it to make it more interesting and at it's harder to pick up.

I still think 2 coins/5 debt is slightly too good for 5 vp tokens. :3.

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #222 on: November 17, 2016, 08:34:47 am »
0

Quote
I did and totally disagree with it as Gallery is simply not 7$ -> 5 VPs but 6 Coins and 5 Debt for a Peddler and 5 VPs. That Peddler will not be particularly useful in any way for your deck so in the presence of extra buys you will most likely rather buy two 5s or a 5 and Gold or whatever.

I see this card mostly being as a victory point card, you just compared it to gold and engine/combo prices. If you wanted to gain vp with 11 coins and 2 buys you could buy a duchy and a gallery for 8 vp with 5 vp not being a dead card. Also this card seems useful to get instead of province in non trasher games since the provinces will clog up your deck.
The purpose of the card is to add to your deck while you are still building, like Emporium. Yes, you might by it over provinces a lot, but it won't end the game and in the end you're not getting the same , and you're paying a lot more. If you subtract the for the pedder, it's ofr 5, which seems fair. All we're doing is adding a peddler to it to make it more interesting and at it's harder to pick up.

I still think 2 coins/5 debt is slightly too good for 5 vp tokens. :3.
Like, the face value, or the fact that it's too easy to pick up?
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #223 on: November 17, 2016, 08:37:13 am »
+1

Quote
I did and totally disagree with it as Gallery is simply not 7$ -> 5 VPs but 6 Coins and 5 Debt for a Peddler and 5 VPs. That Peddler will not be particularly useful in any way for your deck so in the presence of extra buys you will most likely rather buy two 5s or a 5 and Gold or whatever.

I see this card mostly being as a victory point card, you just compared it to gold and engine/combo prices. If you wanted to gain vp with 11 coins and 2 buys you could buy a duchy and a gallery for 8 vp with 5 vp not being a dead card. Also this card seems useful to get instead of province in non trasher games since the provinces will clog up your deck.
The purpose of the card is to add to your deck while you are still building, like Emporium. Yes, you might by it over provinces a lot, but it won't end the game and in the end you're not getting the same , and you're paying a lot more. If you subtract the for the pedder, it's ofr 5, which seems fair. All we're doing is adding a peddler to it to make it more interesting and at it's harder to pick up.

I still think 2 coins/5 debt is slightly too good for 5 vp tokens. :3.
Like, the face value, or the fact that it's too easy to pick up?

Face value, however making it harder to get fixes it. Reasoning: "why buy a province early game when you can get this" Forcing the player to buy a 4 costed peddler is not really a big downside. In my mind 5 vp tokens on it's own is worth at least 8 coins.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2016, 08:40:09 am by loneXolf »
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #224 on: November 17, 2016, 08:40:46 am »
0

The point of it being a peddler is to synergize with the bottom part, it increases the your deck produces and doesn't hurt because it's a cantrip, so you can handle the easier.

If we assume for now it's too good, how would you propose nefing it? Costing it at to compete more with province? Capping the / at 4?
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #225 on: November 17, 2016, 08:52:10 am »
+1

The point of it being a peddler is to synergize with the bottom part, it increases the your deck produces and doesn't hurt because it's a cantrip, so you can handle the easier.

If we assume for now it's too good, how would you propose nefing it? Costing it at to compete more with province? Capping the / at 4?

Caping the ratio to 4 or increasing the cost to 7 both seem to make the card more balanced(for me at least). You could maybe leave it how it is and just put a downside on it, "When you buy this, you may take up to 5 Debt tokens for +1 VP each. If you take more than 3 Debt tokens put the -1 card token on top of your deck" for a example.

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #226 on: November 17, 2016, 08:54:19 am »
0

The point of it being a peddler is to synergize with the bottom part, it increases the your deck produces and doesn't hurt because it's a cantrip, so you can handle the easier.

If we assume for now it's too good, how would you propose nefing it? Costing it at to compete more with province? Capping the / at 4?

Caping the ratio to 4 or increasing the cost to 7 both seem to make the card more balanced(for me at least). You could maybe leave it how it is and just put a downside on it, "When you buy this, you may take up to 5 Debt tokens for +1 VP each. If you take more than 3 Debt tokens put the -1 card token on top of your deck" for a example.
I won't change Gallery till I test it in a game or 2, but if it turns out too good then I'll lower it to . The -1 Card is interesting but it's a lot more complexity to add and there are easier ways to nerf it.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #227 on: November 17, 2016, 08:56:32 am »
+1

The point of it being a peddler is to synergize with the bottom part, it increases the your deck produces and doesn't hurt because it's a cantrip, so you can handle the easier.

If we assume for now it's too good, how would you propose nefing it? Costing it at to compete more with province? Capping the / at 4?

Caping the ratio to 4 or increasing the cost to 7 both seem to make the card more balanced(for me at least). You could maybe leave it how it is and just put a downside on it, "When you buy this, you may take up to 5 Debt tokens for +1 VP each. If you take more than 3 Debt tokens put the -1 card token on top of your deck" for a example.
I won't change Gallery till I test it in a game or 2, but if it turns out too good then I'll lower it to . The -1 Card is interesting but it's a lot more complexity to add and there are easier ways to nerf it.

Yeah making the ratio up to 4 was also my favorite static way to nerfing this card, the downside is more of a slight rework.

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #228 on: November 18, 2016, 01:40:33 am »
+1

Face value, however making it harder to get fixes it. Reasoning: "why buy a province early game when you can get this" Forcing the player to buy a 4 costed peddler is not really a big downside. In my mind 5 vp tokens on it's own is worth at least 8 coins.
Without an extra this is of course better than a Provinces early in the game when you hit 9 or 10. With 8 you gotta seriously consider whether getting a Gold is not the better choice.
Also, in a Kingdom with extra buys you will never get this; when you hit 9 or 10 you will simply buy two good cards.

So Gallery is only situationally good: high coin value, early in the game, without extra buys. Doesn't seem like a powerhouse to me, niche cards rarely are.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #229 on: November 18, 2016, 08:56:59 am »
+1

Face value, however making it harder to get fixes it. Reasoning: "why buy a province early game when you can get this" Forcing the player to buy a 4 costed peddler is not really a big downside. In my mind 5 vp tokens on it's own is worth at least 8 coins.
Without an extra this is of course better than a Provinces early in the game when you hit 9 or 10. With 8 you gotta seriously consider whether getting a Gold is not the better choice.
Also, in a Kingdom with extra buys you will never get this; when you hit 9 or 10 you will simply buy two good cards.

So Gallery is only situationally good: high coin value, early in the game, without extra buys. Doesn't seem like a powerhouse to me, niche cards rarely are.

Are you repeating yourself? All of your points seem the same as your last post:
Quote
I did and totally disagree with it as Gallery is simply not 7$ -> 5 VPs but 6 Coins and 5 Debt for a Peddler and 5 VPs. That Peddler will not be particularly useful in any way for your deck so in the presence of extra buys you will most likely rather buy two 5s or a 5 and Gold or whatever.
My reasoning is that Gallery is almost always better than province when you want to start buying victory cards. Even if you are building towards the double province mega turns, you could buy gallery instead of the second province if you only have 14 coins, even if you get a solid 16 coins if you deck is not consistent or when you get over 16 coins but less than 24 I don't see a reason not to buy a Gallery.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2016, 09:06:10 am by loneXolf »
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #230 on: November 18, 2016, 09:23:16 am »
0

Gallery doesn't end the game, and it gives you less .
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tristan

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #231 on: November 19, 2016, 02:31:26 am »
+1

Are you repeating yourself? All of your points seem the same as your last post.
No shit Sherlock. You claim that Gallery is overpowered, I claim that it is only conditionally good.

My reasoning is that Gallery is almost always better than province when you want to start buying victory cards. Even if you are building towards the double province mega turns, you could buy gallery instead of the second province if you only have 14 coins, even if you get a solid 16 coins if you deck is not consistent or when you get over 16 coins but less than 24 I don't see a reason not to buy a Gallery.
More hogwash. First of all, if you hit 16 coins with more than one buy your deck is anything but inconsistent (and it certainly would not be improved by a Peddler). Second of all, 16 coins and two buys yield two Provinces and thus 12VPs. If you spend that on two Galleries you only get two Peddler and 4VPs.
If you hit 16 or more coins in a Province game and don't green you are making a mistake in more than 90% of the cases. Could be that 3 Labs or 2 Grand Markets and a 4 are the better choice. But it certainly doesn't make sense to spend 11 on a Peddler and 5 VPs when you have such a powerful engine that can yield 2 Provinces per turn. You only gotta play this twice to have half the Provinces!

I mean, gee, these are not subtleties which we could reasonably debate but hyperobvious stuff.  :o

Gallery is only good if there are no extra buys and you hit a huge amount of coins or for endgame shenanigans (alternative to Duchy dancing).

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« Last Edit: November 19, 2016, 09:49:24 am by theory »
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #232 on: November 19, 2016, 06:59:52 am »
+2

Are you repeating yourself? All of your points seem the same as your last post.
No shit Sherlock.
Please watch your language and your words.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #233 on: November 19, 2016, 07:54:55 am »
+1

Quote
If you spend that on two Galleries you only get two Peddler and 4VPs.
I never said buying two galleries at once is a good idea.
Quote
If you hit 16 or more coins in a Province game and don't green you are making a mistake in more than 90% of the cases. Could be that 3 Labs or 2 Grand Markets and a 4 are the better choice. But it certainly doesn't make sense to spend 11 on a Peddler and 5 VPs when you have such a powerful engine that can yield 2 Provinces per turn. You only gotta play this twice to have half the Provinces!
Okay maybe most of the time was a bit over the top, however I still think there is value getting a gallery over provinces in this type of game, Few other examples 1. If your opponent(s) deck cannot reach 16 they probably bought a few Provinces while you were building your deck so buying Galleries instead of second provinces could help slow down the game a turn or two for you to catch up, if you can't catch up with two provinces a turn against their 1. 2. Even if both you and your opponent built mega turn decks Buying Galleries instead of Provinces at certain times, can help you control the province split.

P.S It's such a pain arguing over cards you never actually played with before.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2016, 08:02:57 am by loneXolf »
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #234 on: November 19, 2016, 08:01:20 am »
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Gallery is only good if there are no extra buys and you hit a huge amount of coins or for endgame shenanigans (alternative to Duchy dancing).
I have to dissagree with you here, and side with loneXolf. Gallery is good for greening in any engine, when you need to add concistency, not take it away. If you barely manage to hit or keep hitting Gallery is there to ad consitency without you falling way behind in .
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #235 on: January 21, 2017, 04:53:48 pm »
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I am glad I got to work with you on civilization. My exams are over. Do you think you want to take another look at a few cards or is that a closed chapter for you?
Hmm, now that you mention it I'd like to make it more of a "set", i.e. balance out the ratio of costs and other stuff. Maybe we should split it into 2 separate 16 card sets, and I'd like to maybe add a split pile or two. I also recently reworked Escort, but I have yet to update my list of all the cards.
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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #236 on: May 24, 2017, 07:53:15 am »
+2

So, Cottage. Why does it cost 3$? Let's make the obvious comparison to Hamlet:
- If you just need two Actions, Hamlet can discard the card it draws or any other card, meaning it gets you a potentially better hand of the same size as Cottage does
- If you don't need the Actions, Hamlet is without any risk, also unlike Cottage
- If the card you discard doesn't produce money, Hamlet is better. If it produces 1$, they are about equal (you might want or not want to be able and draw the discarded card)

Cottage is better ONLY when you want to take more additional bonuses than you have cards in your hand that produce 1$ or 0$. In other words, Cottage can only be better if you trashed your starting deck and don't get any new junk. And really always need those actions. I'd definitely try it at 2$ if I were you guys.

ThetaSigma12

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Re: Dominion: Civilization (Beta)
« Reply #237 on: May 24, 2017, 07:57:34 am »
+1

That makes sense. I'll change it when I get back from vacation.
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