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Which of these Kingdoms is your favorite?

Game 1: Moat, Tunnel, Bishop, Gardens, Ironworks, Young Witch, Tournament, Council Room, Torturer, Border Village
- 5 (5.8%)
Game 2: Crossroads, Loan, Silk Road, Baron, Bureaucrat, Apprentice, Duke, Farmland, Harem, Nobles
- 14 (16.3%)
Game 3: Haven, Great Hall, Workshop, Masquerade, Ironworks, Island, Throne Room, Tactician, Goons, King's Court
- 6 (7%)
Game 4: Lookout, Masquerade, Oracle, Smithy, Worker's Village, Festival, Ghost Ship, Margrave, Mountebank, Treasury
- 9 (10.5%)
Game 5: Embargo, University, Scrying Pool, Worker's Village, Remodel, Wharf, Rabble, Grand Market, Forge, Peddler
- 6 (7%)
Game 6: Menagerie, Tunnel, Ghost Ship, Governor, Inn, Monument, Worker's Village, Grand Market, Goons, Adventurer
- 16 (18.6%)
Game 7: Embargo, Scheme, Menagerie, Watchtower, Fishing Village, Remake, Haggler, Vault, Grand Market, Expand
- 7 (8.1%)
Game 8: Crossroads, Secret Chamber, Warehouse, Loan, Ambassador, Caravan, Worker's Village, Bureaucrat, Merchant Ship, Grand Market
- 11 (12.8%)
Game 9: Chapel, Fishing Village, Watchtower, Ironworks, Gardens, Bridge, Highway, Mountebank, Ill-gotten Gains, Goons
- 12 (14%)

Total Members Voted: 86

Voting closed: February 05, 2012, 05:15:12 am


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Author Topic: Final Voting: 2011 DominionStrategy.com Kingdom Design Challenge  (Read 31779 times)

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olneyce

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Re: Final Voting: 2011 DominionStrategy.com Kingdom Design Challenge
« Reply #25 on: January 30, 2012, 03:38:01 pm »
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Yeah, I'm perplexed at #9 leading.  It's fine, but it seems like 'monster strategy fight' which is less interesting than some of the others that require more of a delicate touch. 

Don't get me wrong, #9 is a fun set that I'm sad not to have played, but it's certainly among my least favorites.
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popsofctown

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Re: Final Voting: 2011 DominionStrategy.com Kingdom Design Challenge
« Reply #26 on: January 30, 2012, 03:42:54 pm »
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The other three make sense to me.  Grand Market perplexes me though.  There's way to design it to be it's own sort of win condition, but it seems so difficult to balance that against the "I got first GM" snowball, and the pull towards rapid strategies that has.

I just would have expected something like Bishop, Silk Road, or Monument to be taking that position.
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Qvist

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Re: Final Voting: 2011 DominionStrategy.com Kingdom Design Challenge
« Reply #27 on: January 30, 2012, 04:03:18 pm »
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Just a guess, don't take it personal: I think many are voting the set with their most favourite cards in, not rather the most interesting set.

Why so many Grand Markets?

I was asking this myself too. And I would like have seen some sets with weaker cards in which they could really shine.

brokoli

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Re: Final Voting: 2011 DominionStrategy.com Kingdom Design Challenge
« Reply #28 on: January 30, 2012, 04:20:13 pm »
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Just a guess, don't take it personal: I think many are voting the set with their most favourite cards in, not rather the most interesting set.

This is why I didn't vote for the 2nd, I love all cards in this set but It's definitely not interesting... (there is a dominant and obvious strategy).

And really, I don't understand why so many votes for the set 9, It's soooo uninteresting... I'm sure Ironworks/Gardens is dominant.
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RisingJaguar

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Re: Final Voting: 2011 DominionStrategy.com Kingdom Design Challenge
« Reply #29 on: January 30, 2012, 04:26:40 pm »
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As someone who did vote for option 9, at first I was not fond of this set.  I was a huge fan of the gigantic engine, it seemed rather obvious.  Then realizing that there are two quite DIFFERENT options, I was a fan.  Seeing my solitaire's vs. Jonts' solitaires seem rather close.

I was not there for the discussions on each Kingdom, but only number 2 offers the same kind of different options to choose between. The other kingdom show vast amounts of skill within play/buy order that should not be undercut, but I like the diversity in #9 as opposed to the race type mentality for most of the other ones. 

I'm still convinced that Chapel -> IW/G vs. highways vs. Goons are all very fair fights.  I'm sure there's reason to think IGG/Mountebank plays a huge role too as neither I or Jonts had either card.  You could probably mix a couple strategies too. 

As for really why? Having it not played helps allows for more imagination, but not much.  Also generated a bit of discussion too.  None of the other ones have had strong rebuttals/discussions at this point. 
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Insomniac

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Re: Final Voting: 2011 DominionStrategy.com Kingdom Design Challenge
« Reply #30 on: January 30, 2012, 04:40:40 pm »
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Also generated a bit of discussion too.  None of the other ones have had strong rebuttals/discussions at this point.

I think the others haven't generated as much discussion as they have less votes. The discussion for 9 is mostly because people are confused that its winning because it seems to showcase only one strategy. I personally like all the sets a lot more than 9
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popsofctown

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Re: Final Voting: 2011 DominionStrategy.com Kingdom Design Challenge
« Reply #31 on: January 30, 2012, 04:42:20 pm »
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Number two is about optimizing a clear strategy, and having a large number of audibles within it.  I think it's "not better but different" than having multiple strategies available.  With X=10 kingdom cards, it's difficult to have both multiple major strategies available and a variety of tweaks possible for that strategy.

I also like that number two is one of those setups that just can't be experienced in a random set.

Something that's easy to miss with number two is that Loan auto-trims your deck, but it's kind of dangerous because the powerful nonhybrid-green cards often like to hang out with Copper.  It makes tempo tricky.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2012, 04:44:22 pm by popsofctown »
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RisingJaguar

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Re: Final Voting: 2011 DominionStrategy.com Kingdom Design Challenge
« Reply #32 on: January 30, 2012, 04:43:12 pm »
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Also generated a bit of discussion too.  None of the other ones have had strong rebuttals/discussions at this point.

I think the others haven't generated as much discussion as they have less votes. The discussion for 9 is mostly because people are confused that its winning because it seems to showcase only one strategy. I personally like all the sets a lot more than 9
I'm referring to replies #7-15... All about how to approach it...
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Insomniac

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Re: Final Voting: 2011 DominionStrategy.com Kingdom Design Challenge
« Reply #33 on: January 30, 2012, 04:52:34 pm »
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Also generated a bit of discussion too.  None of the other ones have had strong rebuttals/discussions at this point.

I think the others haven't generated as much discussion as they have less votes. The discussion for 9 is mostly because people are confused that its winning because it seems to showcase only one strategy. I personally like all the sets a lot more than 9
I'm referring to replies #7-15... All about how to approach it...

I am aware of this but it started off with someone being confused about it and saying without thinking too hard about it that its a IW/Gardens game. This caused people to say well chapel is probably a better start and so on.

The other sets don't promote the this wins mentality. For instance in set one you wouldn't say ironworks gardens wins because the set immediately demands you to think about all the cards available.

The fact that set 9 didn't get played also helps in a lot of ways because I can show you IW/Gardens didn't win in set one. I can't show you what happened in set 9.
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theory

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Re: Final Voting: 2011 DominionStrategy.com Kingdom Design Challenge
« Reply #34 on: January 30, 2012, 05:04:41 pm »
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Here are corrected stats.

In terms of submissions, every single Dominion card was featured.  Yes, that's right: even Possession and Saboteur got one set each.  The most common cards were: Gardens 28, Tunnel 26, Hamlet 25.  (Like, by a landslide.  There is a continuous stream of cards up to 18 appearances each, and then a sudden jump to these three.)  The least popular were:

Bazaar   2
Laboratory   2
Nomad Camp   2
Smugglers   2
Spy   2
Trading Post   2
Transmute   2
University   2
Possession   1
Saboteur   1

Yes, I'm just as surprised as you are.

In terms of the 16 final candidates, 100 Dominion cards were featured.  The most common cards were: Grand Market 5, Gardens 4, Ironworks 4, Worker's Village 4.

In terms of the 9 final sets, 69 Dominion cards were featured.  The most common cards were: Grand Market 4, Worker's Village 4, Goons 3, Ironworks 3.

All of this data will be made public when the voting closes.  (Currently this is all tied to who submitted each set, and rather than strip all that data, I'm just going to hold off on releasing it until the voting finishes.)
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RisingJaguar

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Re: Final Voting: 2011 DominionStrategy.com Kingdom Design Challenge
« Reply #35 on: January 30, 2012, 05:13:32 pm »
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The fact that set 9 didn't get played also helps in a lot of ways because I can show you IW/Gardens didn't win in set one. I can't show you what happened in set 9.

Just to play devil's advocate, game 1 shows me neither player went strongly for IW/Gardens not that its not a viable option, mainly cause it was 5/2 split.  But with Hamlet (to use more than 1 ironworks for victory and + buys) and tunnels, I can see the game ending quickly yet building a steady flow of cards.  Also in 4/3 split,  does silver/silver start (presuming) lead to the same sort of success for that engine?  Tunnels also provides a unique ability for IW/G to have actual money to play with (not a great one, but there's variance to get BV).  Torturers' attack either gains a card (curse albeit) or gains gold. 

I like discussion of these sorts and I am just saying that those discussions probably had people voting 9. 
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Insomniac

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Re: Final Voting: 2011 DominionStrategy.com Kingdom Design Challenge
« Reply #36 on: January 30, 2012, 05:25:05 pm »
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The fact that set 9 didn't get played also helps in a lot of ways because I can show you IW/Gardens didn't win in set one. I can't show you what happened in set 9.

Just to play devil's advocate, game 1 shows me neither player went strongly for IW/Gardens not that its not a viable option, mainly cause it was 5/2 split.  But with Hamlet (to use more than 1 ironworks for victory and + buys) and tunnels, I can see the game ending quickly yet building a steady flow of cards.  Also in 4/3 split,  does silver/silver start (presuming) lead to the same sort of success for that engine?  Tunnels also provides a unique ability for IW/G to have actual money to play with (not a great one, but there's variance to get BV).  Torturers' attack either gains a card (curse albeit) or gains gold. 

I like discussion of these sorts and I am just saying that those discussions probably had people voting 9.

True but, assuming the 4/3 open if your opponent opens Ironworks, Bishop is a strong counter. I probably would think something like Bishop/Hamlet open into a few Tunnels to gain gold. Shrink your deck off of maybe a 2 Bishop engine with Hamlets/BV/Torturer(iffy because a curse is a card). Now every turn, you trash one or 2 golds to bishop for +4/+8 points, And gain hopefully 2 back with tunnel discard. You want to keep your hamlets to a minimum, probably 1 or 2 (for your tunnels), because if you go heavy into hamlet youll help the IW/Gardens drain that stack.

(I also like these discussions)
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ftl

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Re: Final Voting: 2011 DominionStrategy.com Kingdom Design Challenge
« Reply #37 on: January 30, 2012, 05:36:31 pm »
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I voted for #2. It just stood out for me as ...weirder... than the others.

A lot of the other sets just seemed like they were filled to the brim with POWER cards. For example, two of the sets have IW/gardens in it, and it's not even the fastest thing around. The first set has YW/Tunnel, IW/Gardens/Hamlet, BV/Bishop/Torturer... and others do the same thing, King's Court and Goons and Grand Markets all around and so on. So I decided to vote against the overpowering; Dominion is a very fun game not just when you can put together an EPIC COMBO OF DOOM but also when you can make less powerful cards shine.

#4 also doesn't do that, but I liked the super-greening of #2. 
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theory

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Re: Final Voting: 2011 DominionStrategy.com Kingdom Design Challenge
« Reply #38 on: January 30, 2012, 05:41:13 pm »
+2

Here's a description of some of the stuff I considered in selecting sets.  It turned out to be considerably harder than I thought.

You want to encourage unorthodox play, to reward creativity.  Some of these sets do that -- Set #8, for example, has a neat hidden trick that olneyce exploited (though not to its fullest potential).  But you can't make every set a gimmick set, and even the "gimmick" sets have to be about more than who spots the gimmick.  So Set #3, the KC/Goons/Masq set, has a little rock-paper-scissors going on depending on how you deal with the pin.  In Set #1 (and 9), the obvious play is not necessarily the wrong one.  It's just not actually the obvious best move like it usually is.  And in Set #2, the play general idea is obvious -- but how do you implement it?

You want to try to reward building super complex decks.  But the problem with this is, 1) these tend to be a bit swingy, and 2) real Dominion is about more than just engines: there's Big Money too!  This was the hardest to balance: I am not really satisfied that any of the final 9 sets allows a money strategy to compete.  Some of the ones in the 16 final candidates had money as a viable candidate, but then you run into the danger of both players deciding that money would be faster and seeing a championship game devolve into who drew their Envoy/Big Money better.

You want to try to boost unpopular cards.  But we didn't include a Kingdom with Thief, because either you make the Thief play incredibly overpowered (i.e., 9 Treasure Kingdoms + Thief), or Thief still just sits there unused.  It's really, really hard to make truly bad cards an integral part of someone's deck.  I think Set #4 does a good job of integrating Oracle, though I am told Oracle is not actually that bad.  Set #8 puts Secret Chamber to good use: that's probably a better example.

You want to try to accurately represent Dominion as a whole.  I touched upon this a little bit in how Big Money doesn't get a fair shake here.  Well, neither do many attacks, because Sea Hag doesn't really affect your strategy so much as it sits on it.  Of course, we do have attacks, but you have to balance it against ...

You want the sets not to be too swingy -- within reason.  It's not an accurate representation of Dominion if you try to make it no-luck: I used to play with !attacks for a while, and boy let me tell you that was boring.  The key is to try to work in ways to counter the attacks, such that the game is not just who spams the attack more, but still make the attack worth getting.  Most random sets don't allow you that option.  Here, Ambassador was a big problem, but eventually we decided to include it.  olneyce won Game 8 even though he was behind in Ambassadoring.  Torturer in Game 1 was another one that could be managed.  But there's no Sea Hag, for instance, since either it shows up with Jack/Masq/etc., or it doesn't, and neither makes for an interesting game.

You want to balance the sets between each other.  Maybe Ironworks/Gardens is a really good measure of skill, but man you do not want to see that in every game.  I think we went a little overboard with Grand Markets/megaturns, as you all have pointed out.  But overall I'm satisfied of the mix between slogfests and explosive games.  There's more variety in megaturn games.  You can only have so many Set #2's. 

You want to balance Colony vs non-Colony.  We ended up with much more Colony than you'd expect if you chose randomly, but this community likes Colony games, and at least we kept it around 50%.

So I ranked all the cards as "yes", "maybe", and "no".  rrenaud gave them numbers.  We tallied together and took the highest combined score sets, as well as a couple others that one of us liked a lot, and assembled a list of 16.  Honestly, all 16 of those could have been final sets.  But these 9 happened to complement each other well.  I then ordered them to try to have some game-to-game diversity (for instance, no Gardens back-to-back, mix up Colonies).  And though the games at the end are less likely to be played, you also don't want game 9 to be a swingy set (e.g., Governor/Goons).
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ftl

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Re: Final Voting: 2011 DominionStrategy.com Kingdom Design Challenge
« Reply #39 on: January 30, 2012, 05:52:17 pm »
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Set #8 puts Secret Chamber to good use: that's probably a better example.

That did end up working out very well, well-picked.
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jonts26

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Re: Final Voting: 2011 DominionStrategy.com Kingdom Design Challenge
« Reply #40 on: January 30, 2012, 05:52:31 pm »
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Theory: forgive me if this was posted somewhere else, I've been behind on my forum checking. But how much playtesting did you and rrenaud do with these sets before you chose your final 9? Did you try out different strategies to see if some of the options were way too dominant, etc?
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theory

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Re: Final Voting: 2011 DominionStrategy.com Kingdom Design Challenge
« Reply #41 on: January 30, 2012, 06:01:19 pm »
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I did not.  I don't know if rrenaud did.  I felt that playing a single game or two on each set would bias me to a conclusion that I didn't really have sufficient evidence to support.  It was impractical to play more than that given the 100+ submissions, and it's difficult to simulate a lot of these sets in the simulators.
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Razzishi

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Re: Final Voting: 2011 DominionStrategy.com Kingdom Design Challenge
« Reply #42 on: January 30, 2012, 06:39:45 pm »
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With Set 2, isn't it possible to build an engine that plays B-crat multiple times a turn, pretty much ruining the day of a player whose deck is solidly green?  I'd think the B-crat player picking up Silk Roads and trashing them with Apprentice (which would also help against choking on B-crat silver) would severely hamper the potential score of a Baron/Silk Road rush, and would have a smattering of Harems and/or Nobles to keep the score close when 3-piling was near.  Is that strategy just way too slow to get going?  I guess you can't trash your Coppers due to Loan being a non-bo with B-crat and perhaps it doesn't do enough damage when you can still have Baron + Estate = Silk Road.
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Insomniac

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Re: Final Voting: 2011 DominionStrategy.com Kingdom Design Challenge
« Reply #43 on: January 30, 2012, 06:47:01 pm »
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With Set 2, isn't it possible to build an engine that plays B-crat multiple times a turn, pretty much ruining the day of a player whose deck is solidly green?  I'd think the B-crat player picking up Silk Roads and trashing them with Apprentice (which would also help against choking on B-crat silver) would severely hamper the potential score of a Baron/Silk Road rush, and would have a smattering of Harems and/or Nobles to keep the score close when 3-piling was near.  Is that strategy just way too slow to get going?  I guess you can't trash your Coppers due to Loan being a non-bo with B-crat and perhaps it doesn't do enough damage when you can still have Baron + Estate = Silk Road.

I think Silk Road+Baron+Crossroads is still much better because the only way to play multiple B-crats in a turn is Crossroads which caps you at 3, and cross roads is only really good if your playing green cards as it draws. The other player might also be able to mitigate the damage by using more crossroads to draw more than your putting back on top
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timchen

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Re: Final Voting: 2011 DominionStrategy.com Kingdom Design Challenge
« Reply #44 on: January 30, 2012, 08:23:12 pm »
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Hmm, I should have submitted a few! Chapel+Noble Brigand is a good combination (if you are interested in having "thief"-style cards in a deck anyway) that can be important. I was hoping to see HoP in play, but I guess it is quite hard to find a board which it is reasonably interesting yet not dominating.

Frankly speaking, I do have one thing to complain. I do feel out of 9 sets there are two IW+Gardens is a bit much. and out of 9 there 3 sets containing IW... If I were to select, I don't mind something like set 2 (someone may argue how unlikely to have so many green cards in a setup), but I do mind seeing one card or one combination too often. That seems to violate the spirit of dominion...
« Last Edit: January 31, 2012, 12:08:15 am by timchen »
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Re: Final Voting: 2011 DominionStrategy.com Kingdom Design Challenge
« Reply #45 on: January 30, 2012, 09:50:59 pm »
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I'm not surprised by the combo-like, very very curse-light submissions that were picked.

Ironically, I think that 2/5 actually helps IW/G in set 1... only thing to really fight it is the bishop thing, and hamlet helps IW/G more than the bishop thing. I'm also far from convinced that a well-played IW/G isn't dominant there. Set 9 is... interesting. Yeah, in contrast to the booooooooring I said earlier. There are a few really strong options, and while I'm pretty sure one's dominant, it's not at all dominant.

There's a dominant strategy on board 2? What is it? Obviously alternative green is important, but... that's not a strategy. There's a lot left there.

I do wish there were more BM+able sets out there, but I understand it'll be hard to pick those, as they're 'boring'.

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Re: Final Voting: 2011 DominionStrategy.com Kingdom Design Challenge
« Reply #46 on: January 30, 2012, 10:35:41 pm »
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I think you could do an interesting BM game. It just has to be not obvious what you want to buy and when. I think maybe a set with a bunch of really strong BM type cards and no village types might work. Something like Masq, Courtyard, Jack, Wharf, Scheme, and some treasures.
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Re: Final Voting: 2011 DominionStrategy.com Kingdom Design Challenge
« Reply #47 on: January 30, 2012, 10:44:09 pm »
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I find it quite interesting how our comments are having so much effect on the votes going from 9 dominant to 9 and 2 dominant.
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jonts26

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Re: Final Voting: 2011 DominionStrategy.com Kingdom Design Challenge
« Reply #48 on: January 30, 2012, 10:48:57 pm »
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I find it quite interesting how our comments are having so much effect on the votes going from 9 dominant to 9 and 2 dominant.

Game 7 is the most interesting game here by far.    :D
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Re: Final Voting: 2011 DominionStrategy.com Kingdom Design Challenge
« Reply #49 on: January 31, 2012, 01:41:55 am »
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I voted for game 4.

When you look at it its obvious you need to build an engine, but how exactly? And how your engine fares depends heavily on exactly what attacks your opponent is playing. Does your engine hold up better against Mountbank, Margrave or Ghost Ship?

Also it incorporates one of my favourite cards; Lookout. Lookout is tricky to play, but when it works you improve both the long term and short term quaility of your deck. Successfully incorporating it into a drawing engine is hard, but also one of my favourite strategies. It also a counter to Mountbank (for obvious reasons) and Ghost Ship to an extent.

I seriously suggest playing someone on Isotropic with this set and trying to pull off whatever you think is the most obvious engine. It may be harder than you expect.
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