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Game 1: Moat, Tunnel, Bishop, Gardens, Ironworks, Young Witch, Tournament, Council Room, Torturer, Border Village

5 (5.8%)

Game 2: Crossroads, Loan, Silk Road, Baron, Bureaucrat, Apprentice, Duke, Farmland, Harem, Nobles

14 (16.3%)

Game 3: Haven, Great Hall, Workshop, Masquerade, Ironworks, Island, Throne Room, Tactician, Goons, King's Court

6 (7%)

Game 4: Lookout, Masquerade, Oracle, Smithy, Worker's Village, Festival, Ghost Ship, Margrave, Mountebank, Treasury

9 (10.5%)

Game 5: Embargo, University, Scrying Pool, Worker's Village, Remodel, Wharf, Rabble, Grand Market, Forge, Peddler

6 (7%)

Game 6: Menagerie, Tunnel, Ghost Ship, Governor, Inn, Monument, Worker's Village, Grand Market, Goons, Adventurer

16 (18.6%)

Game 7: Embargo, Scheme, Menagerie, Watchtower, Fishing Village, Remake, Haggler, Vault, Grand Market, Expand

7 (8.1%)

Game 8: Crossroads, Secret Chamber, Warehouse, Loan, Ambassador, Caravan, Worker's Village, Bureaucrat, Merchant Ship, Grand Market

11 (12.8%)

Game 9: Chapel, Fishing Village, Watchtower, Ironworks, Gardens, Bridge, Highway, Mountebank, Ill-gotten Gains, Goons

12 (14%)

Total Members Voted: 86

Voting closed: February 05, 2012, 05:15:12 am

[theory]

These are the nine sets that were scheduled for the final of the 2011 DominionStrategy.com Championships.  (The ninth set was unused, but is still eligible for this poll.)  Please vote for your favorite of these sets -- you may define favorite in any way you choose.  You may change your vote at any time.

Feel free to use this thread to discuss the sets, how olneyce and manzi played them, and whether you spot any alternative strategies that the players might have missed.

The winner will receive a Dominion expansion of his choice.  Voting will close in one week.

If you submitted one of the sets below, please do not identify which set you submitted until after the voting is concluded.  After the winner is announced, we will also release all the other sets submitted to this challenge.

Game 1: Moat, Tunnel, Bishop, Gardens, Ironworks, Young Witch, Tournament, Council Room, Torturer, Border Village
Bane: Hamlet
Colony: No

Game 2: Crossroads, Loan, Silk Road, Baron, Bureaucrat, Apprentice, Duke, Farmland, Harem, Nobles
Colony: Yes

Game 3: Haven, Great Hall, Workshop, Masquerade, Ironworks, Island, Throne Room, Tactician, Goons, King's Court
Colony: No

Game 4: Lookout, Masquerade, Oracle, Smithy, Worker's Village, Festival, Ghost Ship, Margrave, Mountebank, Treasury
Colony: No

Game 5: Embargo, University, Scrying Pool, Worker's Village, Remodel, Wharf, Rabble, Grand Market, Forge, Peddler
Colony: Yes

Game 6: Menagerie, Tunnel, Ghost Ship, Governor, Inn, Monument, Worker's Village, Grand Market, Goons, Adventurer
Colony: No

Game 7: Embargo, Scheme, Menagerie, Watchtower, Fishing Village, Remake, Haggler, Vault, Grand Market, Expand
Colony: Yes

Game 8: Crossroads, Secret Chamber, Warehouse, Loan, Ambassador, Caravan, Worker's Village, Bureaucrat, Merchant Ship, Grand Market
Colony: Yes

Game 9: Chapel, Fishing Village, Watchtower, Ironworks, Gardens, Bridge, Highway, Mountebank, Ill-gotten Gains, Goons
Colony: Yes

[brokoli]

My four favorites :

Game 1 : I quite like the use of tunnel here.
Fame 2 : Baron, Crossroads, and Silk road. I love these three cards. Nice synergy, but too victory cards in the same board.
Game 3 : I love the Ironworks/Island/Great hall combo. But the presence of KC/Goons/Masq is a bad idea for me.
Game 6 : Excellent use of menagerie. Inn and Monument are also very nice.

With much hesitation, I vote for Game 6.

[^_^_^_^]

Board 9: A Garden Lover's Board. I love gardens. 

[olneyce]

I'll have more complete comments on the games in the results thread, but here's my take on how enjoyable it was to play these:

Was not in love with set 1: I think we may have gone too aggressively down the Torturer path, but it all made for quite a slog.

I usually don't enjoy alternative victory cards that much but set 2 was a lot of fun.  There was just so much variety, and I really love the opportunity to Barons-rush, which rarely works.

Set 3 drove me up the wall.  I got so fixated on the pin that I didn't really think about how it would actually work out.

Set 4 worked out very very well for me.  In some ways it was my favorite, since it really was all about engine-construction.  But the constant Margrave-Masq back-and-forths left it a bit frustrating for both sides.

Set 5 was also among my favorites.  University into Wharf is great, but it does make for a very quick game.

Set 6 is a strong competitor for favorite set.  The only reason I wouldn't pick it is that the swinginess of Governor/Goons was VERY frustrating while playing.  Still, it's a set that involves a LOT of decisions, and rewards strategic buys and plays quite a lot.  I'm curious about the presence of Adventurer on here, though.  It seemed like an obvious 'don't buy' while playing. Is there idea that you can draw golds into your hand and then remodel them into Provinces easier?

Set 7: I love Watchtower engines, and the one Manzi puts together here is a thing of beauty.  It can't be my favorite, though, because I got crushed so badly.

Set 8 might actually be my favorite.  I've really grown fond of Ambassador lately - and I think the combination of Crossroads/Caravan/Secret Chamber as a mechanism for getting relatively early Grand Markets makes for a very interesting Ambassador war.  It was only mid-game that I realized 'whoa, I just want to send back double coppers at every opportunity.'  But once I did, it was pretty much over.

[WanderingWinder]

Set 1: I think Ironworks/Gardens with Tunnel and hamlet support is best here. In the chat, everyone was trying to convince me that bishop stealing a couple gardens was able to counter that effectively. I remain unconvinced. (If anyone is curious, I played jonts a couple games after the match on this board with this strategy. Border Village is huge for the bishop player, and we split 1-1. I also realize that I was going at the ironworks way too slow in both games). 1st turn is huge here, any way you slice it. I'm really unimpressed by going torturer chains. Mostly because Ironworks/Gardens just doesn't care about them. It is going to require some nuance and adjustment to your opponent in every case, though, so not a bad set, per se.

Set 2: Love the all-green set. Well, I think 4 barons is a lot. The talk in the chat was whether you wanted bureaucrat on your second shuffle or not (open baron/silver). Well, we all thought that crossroads and silk roads were key cards here (part of why we prefer baron to the other stuff at the start is for the buys). Duke is a trap here, for sure, and I don't understand what apprentice is doing. After seeing the game, probably 2-3 barons is what I'd get, and then lots of silk roads. And crossroads somewhere. A little tricky to figure out what order to grab stuff. And you have to react to what your opponent is doing, making sure they don't flank you out of the VP cards you need to win, while at the same time not thrusting for them so early yourself that you end up totally choked in green. Baron is an excellent answer to that though. Probably you buy silk roads pretty early here - 2nd reshuffle? And probably I'm not buying anything that costs over $4 all game. No, seriously.

Set 3: Consensus was the pin was a trap. If they're trying to pin you, loading up on all the ironworks and islands and then rushing great halls must be fast enough. People were solitairing it in like 11-12 turns (someone remind me what the initial $3 we decided to buy was?). And quite conceivably, you only really need 2 piles gone before getting pinned. You know, you can buy out those curses. Anyway, it really helps to get those great halls, because the pinning player can grab those for VP points (both from goons and what they naturally give you) while executing the pin, helping himself overcome if the deficit is small enough. Which coulda been real interesting if it happened that the pin got very lucky to get up that fast. As it was, I still think it somewhat interesting how much they were able to do off of Havens and tacticians to save themselves from total deck deletion.

Set 4: Chat consensus was to build an engine here. My initial thought was opening masq/silver, maybe one more silver the whole game, one mountebank, as many ghost ships as possible, and some oracles. Well, eventually someone points out that oracle can counter GS pretty well. Hm. Getting enough villages seemed like the big issue. And some people thought to skip the Mountebank entirely, just throttle toward an engine. Margrave I think is weak, because in general it's weak in engines (or rather, against them). Reason is, it gives them a chance to take 3 cards out of 6, which gives them a good chance of kicking their engine off. You know, it's not so hard to have an engine fire off a 3 card hand when you get to pick those 3 cards. Of course, masq can be like an attack in these situations, which should give some very nice tactical decisions about what to keep when attacked, in case you get hit with masq. Which is probably why I'd still go GS as the cornerstone of my draw in the engine.

Set 5: I think consensus was a univ/wharf/WV engine. Scrying pool is too slow. Forge we liked at some point, if it fell to you right. Embargo got tossed around a bit. What to embargo? Well, I think embargoing university could have been interesting. And Peddlers are liable to run out fast. Um, not that this was a boring set, but I can't think of a lot to say right now.

Set 6: Ah, yes. Everyone in chat was screaming for big goons play. We were SHOCKED that we didn't see more of it. There were sorta two camps. One (which I advocated) was Inn+Menagerie+goons. The other was Governor+WV+Goons. Well, okay, everyone wanted to combine both of those. And a lot of people were in the middle totally (but man, how many buys do you have? Which do you prioritize?) The reason I like going more inn-heavy is you can buy coppers more generously. Also, don't know what you're doing with either one early, really. But the governors give you a better chance at a mega mega turn. Hard to know. Oh, and tunnel has lots of nice interactions here, tunnel/inn, tunnel/adventurer... but it must be far too slow and too weak (as in, you won't get enough points with all the green cards out if you don't goons at all) to compete. Anyway, really shocked that they only had 2 goons each. We expected Goons to be the first pile to run.

Set 7: We had quite a discussion on this one (though not so much an argument). Fishing Village is massive. You need the actions. We wanted FV+remake opening, race the fishing villages until the pile is out. Then we wanted a couple of watchtowers, a couple hagglers (which we thought would be really important) and maybe an expand or two. Grand Markets when possible, but mostly off the gains. Eventually some schemes and menageries. Well, ok, we wanted most every card. Actually, most of us figured vault was a little too slow (and helping the opponent), even with the vault/GM and vault/Watchtower combos. We expected a pretty quick 3-pile ending, so you'd have to be tactically alert enough to get a big enough lead to defend yourself against that. Very interesting. Well, not exactly as we'd planned, but decently close to it. Don't think I like the scheme open. Oh, and the luck involved on what you pair remake with is why I rather dislike that card.

Set 8: You know, I'm saying that this has lots of great cards to fight ambassador. But it's a colony game, AND there's a village. So you have to go for it. There was some disagreement whether to go Amb/Amb or Caravan/Amb. Oh, and like most of the sets, we saw a big first turn advantage here. Except, even bigger here. Ambassador does that. Biggest 1st-turn advantage card in the game. At some point, I even talked about going triple ambassador here, though I don't think there's enough of an engine, lacking TR, KC, or any real card draw. So, I figured it's likely to be decided on who wins the ambassador war. Which is likely player one. Sorta boring and sad really. Take the colonies out and it's much better - warehouse, bureaucrat, merchant ship, crossroads, all help you fight amb. And WV, crossroads, caravan really help amb. So it woulda been a nice potential for a good dichotomy.

Set 9:Boooooring. Nothing here to stop IW/Gardens. Fishing village helps that, so, so much. Sure, the other stuff is mega-powered, but it can't get off the ground fast enough. Even with all the help it has. Well, okay, there's a lot of help. Maybe not SO bad. But I seriously think IW/G is the beast here.

[DG]

I've played a couple of games similar to set 6 and I'm pretty sure that you want governor with both ghost ship and goons but the ghost ship is the stronger and more important.

[shark_bait]

Set 9:Boooooring. Nothing here to stop IW/Gardens. Fishing village helps that, so, so much. Sure, the other stuff is mega-powered, but it can't get off the ground fast enough. Even with all the help it has. Well, okay, there's a lot of help. Maybe not SO bad. But I seriously think IW/G is the beast here.

Have you no faith in the engine WW!  I think IW/G can be beat by the engine.  Open IW/Chapel, get a trim deck and use highways/ironworks to get your engine parts extremely fast.  I'd go for a fishing village/watchtower/highway/goons engine looking to end the game on 3-piles while accumulating VP chips and disposing extra buys (if any) with watchtower.

[WanderingWinder]

Set 9:Boooooring. Nothing here to stop IW/Gardens. Fishing village helps that, so, so much. Sure, the other stuff is mega-powered, but it can't get off the ground fast enough. Even with all the help it has. Well, okay, there's a lot of help. Maybe not SO bad. But I seriously think IW/G is the beast here.

Have you no faith in the engine WW!  I think IW/G can be beat by the engine.  Open IW/Chapel, get a trim deck and use highways/ironworks to get your engine parts extremely fast.  I'd go for a fishing village/watchtower/highway/goons engine looking to end the game on 3-piles while accumulating VP chips and disposing extra buys (if any) with watchtower.

Well... I mean, it's possible. But IW/G is so FAST. And if you're grabbing IW, that only helps me get my piles.

[jonts26]

Set 9:Boooooring. Nothing here to stop IW/Gardens. Fishing village helps that, so, so much. Sure, the other stuff is mega-powered, but it can't get off the ground fast enough. Even with all the help it has. Well, okay, there's a lot of help. Maybe not SO bad. But I seriously think IW/G is the beast here.

Have you no faith in the engine WW!  I think IW/G can be beat by the engine.  Open IW/Chapel, get a trim deck and use highways/ironworks to get your engine parts extremely fast.  I'd go for a fishing village/watchtower/highway/goons engine looking to end the game on 3-piles while accumulating VP chips and disposing extra buys (if any) with watchtower.

Well... I mean, it's possible. But IW/G is so FAST. And if you're grabbing IW, that only helps me get my piles.

I'm with shark_bait on this one. IW/G is fast but with goons and colonies you can eclipse gardens points pretty easily in 10-12 turns. I think this set is actually quite interesting. Against pure IW/Gardens, goons, highway, watchtower, FV engine should stomp it, ignoring attacks. But against another engine, the attacks might become more relevant, to the point an IGG deck might work, but then the IW/gardens deck should beat the IGG/gardens deck.

[shark_bait]

Set 9:Boooooring. Nothing here to stop IW/Gardens. Fishing village helps that, so, so much. Sure, the other stuff is mega-powered, but it can't get off the ground fast enough. Even with all the help it has. Well, okay, there's a lot of help. Maybe not SO bad. But I seriously think IW/G is the beast here.

Have you no faith in the engine WW!  I think IW/G can be beat by the engine.  Open IW/Chapel, get a trim deck and use highways/ironworks to get your engine parts extremely fast.  I'd go for a fishing village/watchtower/highway/goons engine looking to end the game on 3-piles while accumulating VP chips and disposing extra buys (if any) with watchtower.

Well... I mean, it's possible. But IW/G is so FAST. And if you're grabbing IW, that only helps me get my piles.

I'd probably just open with IW and stop with one.  So I wouldn't really be helping empty that pile all that much.

[jonts26]

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201201/29/game-20120129-114047-0111bfd3.html

Here's 30 points in 10 turns, which is about what you'd expect from IW/gardens at game end (maybe a touch more, but close). And if I had an extra turn or two to play with, I could double that easily.

EDIT: well, gardens might get to 4 points each, but that's not happening unless the game lasts 14 or so turns. And in that case the 40ish points for IW/Gardens certainly won't be enough.

[WanderingWinder]

Impressive log. You're lucky as all get out there, but yeah, you're probably right.

[RisingJaguar]

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201201/29/game-20120129-114047-0111bfd3.html

Here's 30 points in 10 turns, which is about what you'd expect from IW/gardens at game end (maybe a touch more, but close). And if I had an extra turn or two to play with, I could double that easily.

EDIT: well, gardens might get to 4 points each, but that's not happening unless the game lasts 14 or so turns. And in that case the 40ish points for IW/Gardens certainly won't be enough.

At first I was on the side of the engine, but now I'm starting to side on the IW/G side in a different manner.  I think chapelling to that is actually very fast.  I haven't gotten the correct manner just yet, and also considering that the other engine builder would want fishing villages, I think this works.  The fact this is a colony game REALLY hurts the IW/G side though. 

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201201/29/game-20120129-115632-8b1d937a.html

I get to 31 points in 11 turns while ending the game. 

Edit: This took me awhile to figure out, so seeing this in a game 9 would probably be slim. 

Another game stopping at 7 fishing villages (2 were gained last turn, so if the other dude had 5 FV, my engine still works fine).  30 cards in deck, 10 turns, about 30ish points.  I also don't grab a gardens till turn 8? so maybe its deceptive too?

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201201/29/game-20120129-120857-3cdf9025.html

[^_^_^_^]

Set 9:Boooooring. Nothing here to stop IW/Gardens. Fishing village helps that, so, so much. Sure, the other stuff is mega-powered, but it can't get off the ground fast enough. Even with all the help it has. Well, okay, there's a lot of help. Maybe not SO bad. But I seriously think IW/G is the beast here.

Have you no faith in the engine WW!  I think IW/G can be beat by the engine.  Open IW/Chapel, get a trim deck and use highways/ironworks to get your engine parts extremely fast.  I'd go for a fishing village/watchtower/highway/goons engine looking to end the game on 3-piles while accumulating VP chips and disposing extra buys (if any) with watchtower.

Well... I mean, it's possible. But IW/G is so FAST. And if you're grabbing IW, that only helps me get my piles.

I'd probably just open with IW and stop with one.  So I wouldn't really be helping empty that pile all that much.

Agreed. Love these types of boards because there is almost always a better strategy, you just have to look away from that main strategy and look towards a different one, one that at first glance looks bad, but in fact is the dominant strategy. Overall, I fully agree with Shark_Bait and I love the board. I wonder what would happen if someone didn't use watch tower for trashing. There can be a few variations of this same action chain strategy with varying effectiveness. Hmm I might try out some stuff later

Also, as a game 9 this is just awesome as it puts both players to have to muster up all their brain  power they have left to analyze the board really deeply. Whoever made this one(again don't announce yourselves until after the winner of this is announced) thank you so much .

[jonts26]

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201201/29/game-20120129-114047-0111bfd3.html

Here's 30 points in 10 turns, which is about what you'd expect from IW/gardens at game end (maybe a touch more, but close). And if I had an extra turn or two to play with, I could double that easily.

EDIT: well, gardens might get to 4 points each, but that's not happening unless the game lasts 14 or so turns. And in that case the 40ish points for IW/Gardens certainly won't be enough.

At first I was on the side of the engine, but now I'm starting to side on the IW/G side in a different manner.  I think chapelling to that is actually very fast.  I haven't gotten the correct manner just yet, and also considering that the other engine builder would want fishing villages, I think this works.  The fact this is a colony game REALLY hurts the IW/G side though. 

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201201/29/game-20120129-115632-8b1d937a.html

I get to 31 points in 11 turns while ending the game. 

Edit: This took me awhile to figure out, so seeing this in a game 9 would probably be slim.

Now chapeling into a Gardens strategy here is a very interesting move, and one I hadn't considered. I do think you get pretty lucky here, but it does look a bit more competitive than the more traditional IW/Gardens in this case, particularly since you can expect the engine builder to help drain those FV's.

[RisingJaguar]

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201201/29/game-20120129-114047-0111bfd3.html

Here's 30 points in 10 turns, which is about what you'd expect from IW/gardens at game end (maybe a touch more, but close). And if I had an extra turn or two to play with, I could double that easily.

EDIT: well, gardens might get to 4 points each, but that's not happening unless the game lasts 14 or so turns. And in that case the 40ish points for IW/Gardens certainly won't be enough.

At first I was on the side of the engine, but now I'm starting to side on the IW/G side in a different manner.  I think chapelling to that is actually very fast.  I haven't gotten the correct manner just yet, and also considering that the other engine builder would want fishing villages, I think this works.  The fact this is a colony game REALLY hurts the IW/G side though. 

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201201/29/game-20120129-115632-8b1d937a.html

I get to 31 points in 11 turns while ending the game. 

Edit: This took me awhile to figure out, so seeing this in a game 9 would probably be slim.

Now chapeling into a Gardens strategy here is a very interesting move, and one I hadn't considered. I do think you get pretty lucky here, but it does look a bit more competitive than the more traditional IW/Gardens in this case, particularly since you can expect the engine builder to help drain those FV's.

I would venture a guess that it all depends how quickly gets their Goons, as it really does mess up with the IW/G hand (or the way i play it with FV/watchtower).  That part is something hard to solitaire (when I would normally be attacked by Goons).

[Davio]

My favorites:

1. Set 5: I don't mind that it's going to be fast game, I like that Embargo is available which may mess with things. The key to winning with a set like this is timing. When are you going to pick up which critical piece for your engine? Is there enough time for the Potion buys? Both Uni and SP can be great, but again, is there time? With Embargo, maybe... I doubt whether it being Colony actually makes any difference, because this will always be a 3-pile game. However, one player snagging a Colony may upset this delicate balance.

2. Set 2: This set was a close second for me. I love the overflow of VP cards for Crossroads and Silk Roads. The only thing is... what do you need to pick up and when? You'd love to have all the cards and as much of them as you can, but at some point you have to make the switch and go for all green instead of mixed green. When will this point of no return be reached by the players? Very interesting board.

3. Set 7: There are many ways to get to those crucial GMs here. Racing Vault -> GM is certainly always a decent one, but I'd rather open Remake, because FV/Watchtower in itself is also a juicy little engine and provides some coin after trashing Estates and Coppers. I think a Remake-engine is faster in the end than just going Silver/Silver/Vault/GM, but I'd like to see this one played out by the best players. Embargo could screw things up, but I doubt whether any player is willing to pay the oppertunity cost of Embargoing GMs instead of going for them himself.

[RisingJaguar]

3. Set 7: There are many ways to get to those crucial GMs here. Racing Vault -> GM is certainly always a decent one, but I'd rather open Remake, because FV/Watchtower in itself is also a juicy little engine and provides some coin after trashing Estates and Coppers. I think a Remake-engine is faster in the end than just going Silver/Silver/Vault/GM, but I'd like to see this one played out by the best players. Embargo could screw things up, but I doubt whether any player is willing to pay the oppertunity cost of Embargoing GMs instead of going for them himself.

Isn't this what occurred? Am I misunderstanding here again? They opened remake and made FV/Watchtower engines.  Embargo also came into play because haggler allows for gaining shenanigans.

[Anon79]

I originally voted for Set 9, but I changed my mind when I realised that it basically has a lot of cards that are known to be awesome by conventional wisdom. Chapel, FV, Bridge, Mountebank, Goons, then basically glue in the form of Ironworks/Watchtower/Gardens, and round off with Highway and IGG. Looks an interesting board sure, but too many "good" cards for me.

I changed my vote to Set 8, primarily due to the presence of Secret Chamber. Looking at all the sets, we don't see many "bad" cards in there - but this set has SC when the only thing resembling a deck-inspection attack (Bureaucrat) looks weak, and made it shine against traditional Ambassador play as so beautifully demonstrated by olneyce.

[theory]

Is it just a coincidence that the only unplayed set is the one leading the poll?  I confess that I did not at all expect it to be as popular as the poll suggests.  Then again, the crowd is more reliable than the individual.

[Davio]

3. Set 7: There are many ways to get to those crucial GMs here. Racing Vault -> GM is certainly always a decent one, but I'd rather open Remake, because FV/Watchtower in itself is also a juicy little engine and provides some coin after trashing Estates and Coppers. I think a Remake-engine is faster in the end than just going Silver/Silver/Vault/GM, but I'd like to see this one played out by the best players. Embargo could screw things up, but I doubt whether any player is willing to pay the oppertunity cost of Embargoing GMs instead of going for them himself.

Isn't this what occurred? Am I misunderstanding here again? They opened remake and made FV/Watchtower engines.  Embargo also came into play because haggler allows for gaining shenanigans.

This is indeed what occured, but I still like this set.

[WanderingWinder]

Is it just a coincidence that the only unplayed set is the one leading the poll?  I confess that I did not at all expect it to be as popular as the poll suggests.  Then again, the crowd is more reliable than the individual.

In picking the correct opinion? I don't really understand the last point, since this is a totally subjective poll; it's a popularity contest, basically.

[Razzishi]

I'm thinking theory hasn't mentioned that the administrators put their lesser favorites at later games because they'd be less likely to be used, which suggests that 9 is their least favorite.

Also, I swear I thought up the basic idea for at least 3 of these sets and only ending up submitting 2, but I have absolutely no idea which 2 they would have been.  Given other people almost certainly had the same ideas with different details, even if I remember which two ideas I submitted I couldn't be really sure that any of my kingdoms were picked.  And of course I can't seem to find anywhere my sent PMs would be.

[popsofctown]

Why so many Grand Markets?

[theory]

Why so many Grand Markets?

Funny note: in compiling the sets, I made a list of 16 final candidates.  In that list, 100 different Kingdom cards were included, with Gardens, Grand Market, Worker's Village, and Ironworks being in a 4-way tie at 4.

This one is actually technically slightly more diverse: still 4 with GMarket and Worker's Village, but 62 Kingdom cards represented (out of a possible ~90).

Wow my numbers are totally off.  Let me redo them.

[olneyce]

Yeah, I'm perplexed at #9 leading.  It's fine, but it seems like 'monster strategy fight' which is less interesting than some of the others that require more of a delicate touch. 

Don't get me wrong, #9 is a fun set that I'm sad not to have played, but it's certainly among my least favorites.

[popsofctown]

The other three make sense to me.  Grand Market perplexes me though.  There's way to design it to be it's own sort of win condition, but it seems so difficult to balance that against the "I got first GM" snowball, and the pull towards rapid strategies that has.

I just would have expected something like Bishop, Silk Road, or Monument to be taking that position.

[Qvist]

Just a guess, don't take it personal: I think many are voting the set with their most favourite cards in, not rather the most interesting set.

Why so many Grand Markets?

I was asking this myself too. And I would like have seen some sets with weaker cards in which they could really shine.

[brokoli]

Just a guess, don't take it personal: I think many are voting the set with their most favourite cards in, not rather the most interesting set.

This is why I didn't vote for the 2nd, I love all cards in this set but It's definitely not interesting... (there is a dominant and obvious strategy).

And really, I don't understand why so many votes for the set 9, It's soooo uninteresting... I'm sure Ironworks/Gardens is dominant.

[RisingJaguar]

As someone who did vote for option 9, at first I was not fond of this set.  I was a huge fan of the gigantic engine, it seemed rather obvious.  Then realizing that there are two quite DIFFERENT options, I was a fan.  Seeing my solitaire's vs. Jonts' solitaires seem rather close.

I was not there for the discussions on each Kingdom, but only number 2 offers the same kind of different options to choose between. The other kingdom show vast amounts of skill within play/buy order that should not be undercut, but I like the diversity in #9 as opposed to the race type mentality for most of the other ones. 

I'm still convinced that Chapel -> IW/G vs. highways vs. Goons are all very fair fights.  I'm sure there's reason to think IGG/Mountebank plays a huge role too as neither I or Jonts had either card.  You could probably mix a couple strategies too. 

As for really why? Having it not played helps allows for more imagination, but not much.  Also generated a bit of discussion too.  None of the other ones have had strong rebuttals/discussions at this point. 

[Insomniac]

Also generated a bit of discussion too.  None of the other ones have had strong rebuttals/discussions at this point.

I think the others haven't generated as much discussion as they have less votes. The discussion for 9 is mostly because people are confused that its winning because it seems to showcase only one strategy. I personally like all the sets a lot more than 9

[popsofctown]

Number two is about optimizing a clear strategy, and having a large number of audibles within it.  I think it's "not better but different" than having multiple strategies available.  With X=10 kingdom cards, it's difficult to have both multiple major strategies available and a variety of tweaks possible for that strategy.

I also like that number two is one of those setups that just can't be experienced in a random set.

Something that's easy to miss with number two is that Loan auto-trims your deck, but it's kind of dangerous because the powerful nonhybrid-green cards often like to hang out with Copper.  It makes tempo tricky.

[RisingJaguar]

Also generated a bit of discussion too.  None of the other ones have had strong rebuttals/discussions at this point.

I think the others haven't generated as much discussion as they have less votes. The discussion for 9 is mostly because people are confused that its winning because it seems to showcase only one strategy. I personally like all the sets a lot more than 9

I'm referring to replies #7-15... All about how to approach it...

[Insomniac]

Also generated a bit of discussion too.  None of the other ones have had strong rebuttals/discussions at this point.

I think the others haven't generated as much discussion as they have less votes. The discussion for 9 is mostly because people are confused that its winning because it seems to showcase only one strategy. I personally like all the sets a lot more than 9

I'm referring to replies #7-15... All about how to approach it...

I am aware of this but it started off with someone being confused about it and saying without thinking too hard about it that its a IW/Gardens game. This caused people to say well chapel is probably a better start and so on.

The other sets don't promote the this wins mentality. For instance in set one you wouldn't say ironworks gardens wins because the set immediately demands you to think about all the cards available.

The fact that set 9 didn't get played also helps in a lot of ways because I can show you IW/Gardens didn't win in set one. I can't show you what happened in set 9.

[theory]

Here are corrected stats.

In terms of submissions, every single Dominion card was featured.  Yes, that's right: even Possession and Saboteur got one set each.  The most common cards were: Gardens 28, Tunnel 26, Hamlet 25.  (Like, by a landslide.  There is a continuous stream of cards up to 18 appearances each, and then a sudden jump to these three.)  The least popular were:

Bazaar   2
Laboratory   2
Nomad Camp   2
Smugglers   2
Spy   2
Trading Post   2
Transmute   2
University   2
Possession   1
Saboteur   1

Yes, I'm just as surprised as you are.

In terms of the 16 final candidates, 100 Dominion cards were featured.  The most common cards were: Grand Market 5, Gardens 4, Ironworks 4, Worker's Village 4.

In terms of the 9 final sets, 69 Dominion cards were featured.  The most common cards were: Grand Market 4, Worker's Village 4, Goons 3, Ironworks 3.

All of this data will be made public when the voting closes.  (Currently this is all tied to who submitted each set, and rather than strip all that data, I'm just going to hold off on releasing it until the voting finishes.)

[RisingJaguar]

The fact that set 9 didn't get played also helps in a lot of ways because I can show you IW/Gardens didn't win in set one. I can't show you what happened in set 9.

Just to play devil's advocate, game 1 shows me neither player went strongly for IW/Gardens not that its not a viable option, mainly cause it was 5/2 split.  But with Hamlet (to use more than 1 ironworks for victory and + buys) and tunnels, I can see the game ending quickly yet building a steady flow of cards.  Also in 4/3 split,  does silver/silver start (presuming) lead to the same sort of success for that engine?  Tunnels also provides a unique ability for IW/G to have actual money to play with (not a great one, but there's variance to get BV).  Torturers' attack either gains a card (curse albeit) or gains gold. 

I like discussion of these sorts and I am just saying that those discussions probably had people voting 9. 

[Insomniac]

The fact that set 9 didn't get played also helps in a lot of ways because I can show you IW/Gardens didn't win in set one. I can't show you what happened in set 9.

Just to play devil's advocate, game 1 shows me neither player went strongly for IW/Gardens not that its not a viable option, mainly cause it was 5/2 split.  But with Hamlet (to use more than 1 ironworks for victory and + buys) and tunnels, I can see the game ending quickly yet building a steady flow of cards.  Also in 4/3 split,  does silver/silver start (presuming) lead to the same sort of success for that engine?  Tunnels also provides a unique ability for IW/G to have actual money to play with (not a great one, but there's variance to get BV).  Torturers' attack either gains a card (curse albeit) or gains gold. 

I like discussion of these sorts and I am just saying that those discussions probably had people voting 9.

True but, assuming the 4/3 open if your opponent opens Ironworks, Bishop is a strong counter. I probably would think something like Bishop/Hamlet open into a few Tunnels to gain gold. Shrink your deck off of maybe a 2 Bishop engine with Hamlets/BV/Torturer(iffy because a curse is a card). Now every turn, you trash one or 2 golds to bishop for +4/+8 points, And gain hopefully 2 back with tunnel discard. You want to keep your hamlets to a minimum, probably 1 or 2 (for your tunnels), because if you go heavy into hamlet youll help the IW/Gardens drain that stack.

(I also like these discussions)

[ftl]

I voted for #2. It just stood out for me as ...weirder... than the others.

A lot of the other sets just seemed like they were filled to the brim with POWER cards. For example, two of the sets have IW/gardens in it, and it's not even the fastest thing around. The first set has YW/Tunnel, IW/Gardens/Hamlet, BV/Bishop/Torturer... and others do the same thing, King's Court and Goons and Grand Markets all around and so on. So I decided to vote against the overpowering; Dominion is a very fun game not just when you can put together an EPIC COMBO OF DOOM but also when you can make less powerful cards shine.

#4 also doesn't do that, but I liked the super-greening of #2. 

[theory]

Here's a description of some of the stuff I considered in selecting sets.  It turned out to be considerably harder than I thought.

You want to encourage unorthodox play, to reward creativity.  Some of these sets do that -- Set #8, for example, has a neat hidden trick that olneyce exploited (though not to its fullest potential).  But you can't make every set a gimmick set, and even the "gimmick" sets have to be about more than who spots the gimmick.  So Set #3, the KC/Goons/Masq set, has a little rock-paper-scissors going on depending on how you deal with the pin.  In Set #1 (and 9), the obvious play is not necessarily the wrong one.  It's just not actually the obvious best move like it usually is.  And in Set #2, the play general idea is obvious -- but how do you implement it?

You want to try to reward building super complex decks.  But the problem with this is, 1) these tend to be a bit swingy, and 2) real Dominion is about more than just engines: there's Big Money too!  This was the hardest to balance: I am not really satisfied that any of the final 9 sets allows a money strategy to compete.  Some of the ones in the 16 final candidates had money as a viable candidate, but then you run into the danger of both players deciding that money would be faster and seeing a championship game devolve into who drew their Envoy/Big Money better.

You want to try to boost unpopular cards.  But we didn't include a Kingdom with Thief, because either you make the Thief play incredibly overpowered (i.e., 9 Treasure Kingdoms + Thief), or Thief still just sits there unused.  It's really, really hard to make truly bad cards an integral part of someone's deck.  I think Set #4 does a good job of integrating Oracle, though I am told Oracle is not actually that bad.  Set #8 puts Secret Chamber to good use: that's probably a better example.

You want to try to accurately represent Dominion as a whole.  I touched upon this a little bit in how Big Money doesn't get a fair shake here.  Well, neither do many attacks, because Sea Hag doesn't really affect your strategy so much as it sits on it.  Of course, we do have attacks, but you have to balance it against ...

You want the sets not to be too swingy -- within reason.  It's not an accurate representation of Dominion if you try to make it no-luck: I used to play with !attacks for a while, and boy let me tell you that was boring.  The key is to try to work in ways to counter the attacks, such that the game is not just who spams the attack more, but still make the attack worth getting.  Most random sets don't allow you that option.  Here, Ambassador was a big problem, but eventually we decided to include it.  olneyce won Game 8 even though he was behind in Ambassadoring.  Torturer in Game 1 was another one that could be managed.  But there's no Sea Hag, for instance, since either it shows up with Jack/Masq/etc., or it doesn't, and neither makes for an interesting game.

You want to balance the sets between each other.  Maybe Ironworks/Gardens is a really good measure of skill, but man you do not want to see that in every game.  I think we went a little overboard with Grand Markets/megaturns, as you all have pointed out.  But overall I'm satisfied of the mix between slogfests and explosive games.  There's more variety in megaturn games.  You can only have so many Set #2's. 

You want to balance Colony vs non-Colony.  We ended up with much more Colony than you'd expect if you chose randomly, but this community likes Colony games, and at least we kept it around 50%.

So I ranked all the cards as "yes", "maybe", and "no".  rrenaud gave them numbers.  We tallied together and took the highest combined score sets, as well as a couple others that one of us liked a lot, and assembled a list of 16.  Honestly, all 16 of those could have been final sets.  But these 9 happened to complement each other well.  I then ordered them to try to have some game-to-game diversity (for instance, no Gardens back-to-back, mix up Colonies).  And though the games at the end are less likely to be played, you also don't want game 9 to be a swingy set (e.g., Governor/Goons).

[ftl]

Set #8 puts Secret Chamber to good use: that's probably a better example.

That did end up working out very well, well-picked.

[jonts26]

Theory: forgive me if this was posted somewhere else, I've been behind on my forum checking. But how much playtesting did you and rrenaud do with these sets before you chose your final 9? Did you try out different strategies to see if some of the options were way too dominant, etc?

[theory]

I did not.  I don't know if rrenaud did.  I felt that playing a single game or two on each set would bias me to a conclusion that I didn't really have sufficient evidence to support.  It was impractical to play more than that given the 100+ submissions, and it's difficult to simulate a lot of these sets in the simulators.

[Razzishi]

With Set 2, isn't it possible to build an engine that plays B-crat multiple times a turn, pretty much ruining the day of a player whose deck is solidly green?  I'd think the B-crat player picking up Silk Roads and trashing them with Apprentice (which would also help against choking on B-crat silver) would severely hamper the potential score of a Baron/Silk Road rush, and would have a smattering of Harems and/or Nobles to keep the score close when 3-piling was near.  Is that strategy just way too slow to get going?  I guess you can't trash your Coppers due to Loan being a non-bo with B-crat and perhaps it doesn't do enough damage when you can still have Baron + Estate = Silk Road.

[Insomniac]

With Set 2, isn't it possible to build an engine that plays B-crat multiple times a turn, pretty much ruining the day of a player whose deck is solidly green?  I'd think the B-crat player picking up Silk Roads and trashing them with Apprentice (which would also help against choking on B-crat silver) would severely hamper the potential score of a Baron/Silk Road rush, and would have a smattering of Harems and/or Nobles to keep the score close when 3-piling was near.  Is that strategy just way too slow to get going?  I guess you can't trash your Coppers due to Loan being a non-bo with B-crat and perhaps it doesn't do enough damage when you can still have Baron + Estate = Silk Road.

I think Silk Road+Baron+Crossroads is still much better because the only way to play multiple B-crats in a turn is Crossroads which caps you at 3, and cross roads is only really good if your playing green cards as it draws. The other player might also be able to mitigate the damage by using more crossroads to draw more than your putting back on top

[timchen]

Hmm, I should have submitted a few! Chapel+Noble Brigand is a good combination (if you are interested in having "thief"-style cards in a deck anyway) that can be important. I was hoping to see HoP in play, but I guess it is quite hard to find a board which it is reasonably interesting yet not dominating.

Frankly speaking, I do have one thing to complain. I do feel out of 9 sets there are two IW+Gardens is a bit much. and out of 9 there 3 sets containing IW... If I were to select, I don't mind something like set 2 (someone may argue how unlikely to have so many green cards in a setup), but I do mind seeing one card or one combination too often. That seems to violate the spirit of dominion...

[WanderingWinder]

I'm not surprised by the combo-like, very very curse-light submissions that were picked.

Ironically, I think that 2/5 actually helps IW/G in set 1... only thing to really fight it is the bishop thing, and hamlet helps IW/G more than the bishop thing. I'm also far from convinced that a well-played IW/G isn't dominant there. Set 9 is... interesting. Yeah, in contrast to the booooooooring I said earlier. There are a few really strong options, and while I'm pretty sure one's dominant, it's not at all dominant.

There's a dominant strategy on board 2? What is it? Obviously alternative green is important, but... that's not a strategy. There's a lot left there.

I do wish there were more BM+able sets out there, but I understand it'll be hard to pick those, as they're 'boring'.

[jonts26]

I think you could do an interesting BM game. It just has to be not obvious what you want to buy and when. I think maybe a set with a bunch of really strong BM type cards and no village types might work. Something like Masq, Courtyard, Jack, Wharf, Scheme, and some treasures.

[^_^_^_^]

I find it quite interesting how our comments are having so much effect on the votes going from 9 dominant to 9 and 2 dominant.

[jonts26]

I find it quite interesting how our comments are having so much effect on the votes going from 9 dominant to 9 and 2 dominant.

Game 7 is the most interesting game here by far.   

[Loschmidt]

I voted for game 4.

When you look at it its obvious you need to build an engine, but how exactly? And how your engine fares depends heavily on exactly what attacks your opponent is playing. Does your engine hold up better against Mountbank, Margrave or Ghost Ship?

Also it incorporates one of my favourite cards; Lookout. Lookout is tricky to play, but when it works you improve both the long term and short term quaility of your deck. Successfully incorporating it into a drawing engine is hard, but also one of my favourite strategies. It also a counter to Mountbank (for obvious reasons) and Ghost Ship to an extent.

I seriously suggest playing someone on Isotropic with this set and trying to pull off whatever you think is the most obvious engine. It may be harder than you expect.

[popsofctown]

With Set 2, isn't it possible to build an engine that plays B-crat multiple times a turn, pretty much ruining the day of a player whose deck is solidly green?  I'd think the B-crat player picking up Silk Roads and trashing them with Apprentice (which would also help against choking on B-crat silver) would severely hamper the potential score of a Baron/Silk Road rush, and would have a smattering of Harems and/or Nobles to keep the score close when 3-piling was near.  Is that strategy just way too slow to get going?  I guess you can't trash your Coppers due to Loan being a non-bo with B-crat and perhaps it doesn't do enough damage when you can still have Baron + Estate = Silk Road.

I think Bureacrat would probably pollute with Silver such that you don't have a game that feels like a pin.  However, you'd start drawing Silver instead, and Silver's not a terrible card. 

Bureacrat is very intriguing in this set which is neat but you have to remember that in the average case it's a weak card.  You probably won't have the flexibility to use apprentice to twist it into working the way you want it too, you'll end up slow and inconsistent.  You have to play a weak card for all of its strengths, here the weak disruption and the Silver gain have to be used to their best so you want to use the Silver to help you build a fluffy Silk Road deck and the attack to slow down enemy engines so that it comes down to the slow Silk Road.  So I don't think you can play it greedily for the super attack combo.

[Tables]

Hm. I still need to consider a few of the sets here, but I'm fairly sure my least favourites are 2 and 9, with 1 only close behind.

2 because so little of the set actually seems important. Duke is pretty irrelevant. Apprentice I'm trying to imagine encorporating, but can't really see it. Loan could be useful, but I doubt it'd help much more than a silver in most cases. It's clear that Silk Road and Crossroads are very valuable, along with Baron. So putting that all together, it feels like a very contracted board with too few interesting options.

9 seems like a group of power cards thrown together with some strong combos. It's probably a tough set to play optimally, but I think IW/G would be pretty close to it, and that's so boring and easy. A very delicate and cunning combo will probably beat it, but whether anyone could think of that in the space of a single game... I have my doubts.

1 is similar to 9 - IW/G is just that good. I like the attack-counter style of the other cards, which makes me like it more than 2 and 9, and a 2/5 here seems to open things up a lot more which probably biased my opinion. But overall it doesn't look all that interesting and the game that was actually played didn't seem all that exciting.

I'm leaning towards 3, 5 or 6 as my favourite currently, but need to think more about 7, 8 and 4.

[WanderingWinder]

So, a word on B-Crat in set two. The ONLY reason I think you might want to not get one is because it's going to lessen the effectiveness of your barons, and, to a lesser extent, the crossroads. Or I guess, that barons are even just that much stronger. But the more I think about it, the more I like B-Crat here. 1 baron, then 1B-crat, then race green. The bureaucrat attack usually gets maybe 3 hits over the course of the game. Here, it's going to hit, like, every single time. And the silver gives you a lot of longevity in being able to grab SR and even duchies and harems for a long time.

[popsofctown]

Loan trims your deck too much to have room for green cards, but allows your deck to run a more consistent and powerful engine with Nobles and CR.  It also makes Baron fizzle less.

[Tables]

None of sets 7, 8 or 4 particularly enthuse me, leaving 3, 5 and 6. And 3 I'm less enthusiastic about now, as it kinda just feels like a showcase of the pin being a trap. So it's between 5 and 6. And of those two, I think 5 just takes it. Both are great sets, both have vital cards the set builds around (Wharf/University vs. Goons) and both give diverging ways to build those engines up. But I feel set 5 is just a little less luck reliant, so it's getting my vote.

And now I have voted and seen the results, I'm a bit baffled by them. Sets 2 and 9 are winning... why? is there some interesting thing in set 2 that I missed and the two finalists missed during the game? And set 9?

[yuma]

And now I have voted and seen the results, I'm a bit baffled by them. Sets 2 and 9 are winning... why? is there some interesting thing in set 2 that I missed and the two finalists missed during the game? And set 9?

I was also surprised until I actually played set two with a friend. It is a fun set to play although my personal vote was for 8 because of its ability to make an Ambassador interesting.

[Fuu]

Set 5 for me. Several fun cards in there, none I really dislike (Goons etc.). I especially like Remodel and Forge. Watching the video, it was played interestingly too; very nice ending.

[^_^_^_^]

Vote sooner rather than later guys! Voting closes in 3 days! This is a close race between 2(13) 6(12) and 9(12) with 8 as a possible candidate for victor in 4th with 10

[olneyce]

Glad to see set 6 inching its way to the top.  It's really that one and #8 for me that are the clear best.  Really fun to play, complex decisions, and most importantly: requiring of both strategic and tactical decisions.

[Arya Stark]

I agree! I voted for 6 also even though I hate ghost ship there's some cards to deal with it 

[brokoli]

Personally I'm not a fan of Governor... but game 6 is still my favourite.
I don't like game 8, though. Ambassador is boring.

[popsofctown]

Game six pulled to the front.  It's like a horse race.

I can't help but wonder if people like voting for the underdog

[Tables]

At this point, as sad as it is, I think tactical voting begins to play in. Those who voted for the ones not near the lead change their votes, so their strong second can win it. Personally I've changed my vote from 5 to 6, because as I said, it's close between those for which I like more, and my least favourites by a landslide... were 2 and 9.

[Donald X.]

At this point, as sad as it is, I think tactical voting begins to play in.

What's sad is that the forum software uses plurality voting. Man. Whatever happened to Cloneproof Schwartz Sequential Dropping?

Of course even better is not determining a winner at all. Have the prize be money, divide it proportionally to votes gotten.

[WanderingWinder]

At this point, as sad as it is, I think tactical voting begins to play in.

What's sad is that the forum software uses plurality voting. Man. Whatever happened to Cloneproof Schwartz Sequential Dropping?

Of course even better is not determining a winner at all. Have the prize be money, divide it proportionally to votes gotten.

I find it somewhat ironic that the game designer promotes money over the game as a prize.
I like it!
Flash Edit: I actually think either is a totally appropriate prize.

[timchen]

It makes sense if Donald submitted some himself! Apparently he doesn't need any of the expansions...