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-Stef-

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Re: Scripting Dominion
« Reply #25 on: September 14, 2016, 04:24:51 am »
0

Any news about this?

No, not really any news. We did start alpha testing with a very small group. It will remain small for a while longer.
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Re: Scripting Dominion
« Reply #26 on: September 29, 2016, 01:33:41 pm »
+2

Dear f.ds,


One of the cards I posted here is in conflict with the Dominion rules, even though it would have been fine pre Adventures.
Why o why haven't you complained about that yet?

Why o why didn't you read my rules document to find out how Beggar works? ;) It's the one place were all rulings and explanations are collected, so it should really be checked for all cards.

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Re: Scripting Dominion
« Reply #27 on: September 29, 2016, 01:57:17 pm »
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The Wiki also has all the current rulings I think. However, ShIT knows about future rules (not anymore probably), so a document about current rules probably is of little value to them.

By the way, your document claims that the rulebook says "When you discard this as a Reaction, the first Silver is GAINED TO YOUR DECK. The second one is gained to your discard pile." The rulebooks says no such thing, it only states a consequence of this. As far as I'm aware, the first time tthis ruling was made was in this thread by Donald. (Also, the formulation "when you discard as a reaction" is misleading, you probably mean "when you discard Beggar due to its reaction ability".
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Re: Scripting Dominion
« Reply #28 on: September 29, 2016, 05:03:55 pm »
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The Wiki also has all the current rulings I think.
It doesn't.

However, ShIT knows about future rules (not anymore probably), so a document about current rules probably is of little value to them.
The document has many rulings and clarifications that are not in any rulebook. Most of these will not be changed by future rules.

By the way, your document claims that the rulebook says "When you discard this as a Reaction, the first Silver is GAINED TO YOUR DECK. The second one is gained to your discard pile." The rulebooks says no such thing, it only states a consequence of this. As far as I'm aware, the first time tthis ruling was made was in this thread by Donald.
Oh ye of little faith. Donald stated it here more than a year ago. That was the basis for my explanation. He says there that the ruling follows from the statement in the rulebook FAQ, and I agree, that's why I phrased it as being from the rulebook and not really a "ruling".

(Also, the formulation "when you discard as a reaction" is misleading, you probably mean "when you discard Beggar due to its reaction ability".
Of course I mean that, but I tried to phrase it a little shorter. What can it be misunderstood to mean?

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Re: Scripting Dominion
« Reply #29 on: September 30, 2016, 01:16:59 pm »
0

The Wiki also has all the current rulings I think.
It doesn't.

What, exactly, doesn't it have?
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Re: Scripting Dominion
« Reply #30 on: September 30, 2016, 03:58:51 pm »
0

The Wiki also has all the current rulings I think.
It doesn't.

What, exactly, doesn't it have?

I'm sorry, but I just don't have it in me to go through it and check, and nothing springs to mind now.

When people started doing the wiki (unbeknownst to me), my BGG FAQ - which was the precursor to my rules document - already existed. When I discovered the wiki, I found it a bit odd that my FAQ was not consulted by the people writing the wiki, since that FAQ was the only text that aimed to have all current rulings and clarifications collected. I posted in this forum about it, after checking that indeed several things were missing in the wiki. Nobody responded as I remember - at least nothing was done. I hope you understand that I didn't see it as my job to update the wiki then. I had already done a lot of work. (If they had started adding stuff from my FAQ and asked me for some sort of help, og course I would cooperate, but that's different.) From then on it seemed the two documents would lead separate lives.

Since then for sure the wiki has been significantly improved, but I haven't seen any evidence that anybody uses my FAQ or now my document to update the wiki (or put in the work themselves to go through everything Donald has posted here and in all the BGG Dominion forums as I have done), and from time to time I discover some missing stuff there. The Beggar thing in this very thread is one example. A little while ago there was a thread and discussion about the "dividing line", which had been in my FAQ for ages but was not defined in the wiki. I guess it got added after that thread.

Now, as then, anybody is free to go through my rules document and add whatever they want to the wiki.

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Re: Scripting Dominion
« Reply #31 on: September 30, 2016, 04:05:27 pm »
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The Wiki also has all the current rulings I think.
It doesn't.

What, exactly, doesn't it have?

I'm sorry, but I just don't have it in me to go through it and check, and nothing springs to mind now.

When people started doing the wiki (unbeknownst to me), my BGG FAQ - which was the precursor to my rules document - already existed. When I discovered the wiki, I found it a bit odd that my FAQ was not consulted by the people writing the wiki, since that FAQ was the only text that aimed to have all current rulings and clarifications collected. I posted in this forum about it, after checking that indeed several things were missing in the wiki. Nobody responded as I remember - at least nothing was done. I hope you understand that I didn't see it as my job to update the wiki then. I had already done a lot of work. (If they had started adding stuff from my FAQ and asked me for some sort of help, og course I would cooperate, but that's different.) From then on it seemed the two documents would lead separate lives.

Since then for sure the wiki has been significantly improved, but I haven't seen any evidence that anybody uses my FAQ or now my document to update the wiki (or put in the work themselves to go through everything Donald has posted here and in all the BGG Dominion forums as I have done), and from time to time I discover some missing stuff there. The Beggar thing in this very thread is one example. A little while ago there was a thread and discussion about the "dividing line", which had been in my FAQ for ages but was not defined in the wiki. I guess it got added after that thread.

Now, as then, anybody is free to go through my rules document and add whatever they want to the wiki.

Well, uh, see the wiki is a community project that the entire forum is welcome to participate in, rather than a single thing run by one guy.  I mean, I'm sure you put a lot of effort into it, but you seem kind of presumptuous/condescending about it, like yours is some holy text or something.  And I realize that may seem hypocritical to some on here, given my relationship with the wiki, but I've been trying to be a bit more hands off about stuff, or at least give valid reasons why things get changed.
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Re: Scripting Dominion
« Reply #32 on: September 30, 2016, 04:06:40 pm »
+2

Can we just have the actual document on the Wiki?
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Re: Scripting Dominion
« Reply #33 on: September 30, 2016, 04:08:12 pm »
+4

Generally when someone asks "why doesn't a wiki have information I've collected on it", the answer is "because you haven't put it there yet". Who else is going to do it?
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Re: Scripting Dominion
« Reply #34 on: September 30, 2016, 04:12:44 pm »
0

Well, uh, see the wiki is a community project that the entire forum is welcome to participate in, rather than a single thing run by one guy.  I mean, I'm sure you put a lot of effort into it, but you seem kind of presumptuous/condescending about it, like yours is some holy text or something.  And I realize that may seem hypocritical to some on here, given my relationship with the wiki, but I've been trying to be a bit more hands off about stuff, or at least give valid reasons why things get changed.

I see that you find fault in how I seem as a person writing that post, but what is your actual disagreement about what I wrote? I tried to explain why I'm not going to do the work of consolidating my doc into the wiki. Anybody else can do, one or several people. As you say, it's a community project. Are you saying that I should have just done it way back then?

Btw, I found that post. One person did reply.

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Re: Scripting Dominion
« Reply #35 on: September 30, 2016, 04:15:53 pm »
+1

I think I understand Jeebus' position.  I don't know the specific details, but it sounds like he spent a bunch of time compiling FAQs and rules and stuff, and then a separate Wiki project took place that overlapped in a lot of material.  So he's like, well why not just use what I already did? 
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Re: Scripting Dominion
« Reply #36 on: September 30, 2016, 04:20:12 pm »
0

I think I understand Jeebus' position.  I don't know the specific details, but it sounds like he spent a bunch of time compiling FAQs and rules and stuff, and then a separate Wiki project took place that overlapped in a lot of material.  So he's like, well why not just use what I already did?

Because we have the actual rules?  And Donald X's actual rulings compiled neatly in one place?  And community consensus about strategy and whatnot?  It just seems redundant, really.  Maybe the people who started the wiki didn't know about Jeebus' document?  Honestly, I hadn't even heard of it until he announced he was adding Empires to it.  I mean, there are a lot of "Dominion compendium"s out there.  Yours isn't the only one, Jeebus.
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Re: Scripting Dominion
« Reply #37 on: September 30, 2016, 04:21:05 pm »
0

Generally when someone asks "why doesn't a wiki have information I've collected on it", the answer is "because you haven't put it there yet". Who else is going to do it?

I see that I failed to communicate. I had already done it, as far as rules go. That was the FAQ. The role of the wiki of course was wider than that FAQ, but as far as rules clarifications go, it was exactly the same. It was a new version of an existing thing. Somehow people "forgot" the FAQ. Ok, no problem, I reminded them. I didn't actually ask, "why isn't it there?". Yes, I could have also just updated it myself. But I could have also just not done that. And that's what I chose. I was and am under no obligation to update the wiki. I had done enough work (according to me). Actually just by having compiled that FAQ, I had done a lot of work for the wiki - if people wanted to take advantage of it.

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Re: Scripting Dominion
« Reply #38 on: September 30, 2016, 04:23:11 pm »
+2

I think I understand Jeebus' position.  I don't know the specific details, but it sounds like he spent a bunch of time compiling FAQs and rules and stuff, and then a separate Wiki project took place that overlapped in a lot of material.  So he's like, well why not just use what I already did?

Because we have the actual rules?  And Donald X's actual rulings compiled neatly in one place?  And community consensus about strategy and whatnot?  It just seems redundant, really.  Maybe the people who started the wiki didn't know about Jeebus' document?  Honestly, I hadn't even heard of it until he announced he was adding Empires to it.  I mean, there are a lot of "Dominion compendium"s out there.  Yours isn't the only one, Jeebus.

In fairness, his is exhaustive and really, really good. I have a print copy for real games.
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Re: Scripting Dominion
« Reply #39 on: September 30, 2016, 04:25:52 pm »
0

I think I understand Jeebus' position.  I don't know the specific details, but it sounds like he spent a bunch of time compiling FAQs and rules and stuff, and then a separate Wiki project took place that overlapped in a lot of material.  So he's like, well why not just use what I already did?

Because we have the actual rules?  And Donald X's actual rulings compiled neatly in one place?  And community consensus about strategy and whatnot?  It just seems redundant, really.  Maybe the people who started the wiki didn't know about Jeebus' document?  Honestly, I hadn't even heard of it until he announced he was adding Empires to it.  I mean, there are a lot of "Dominion compendium"s out there.  Yours isn't the only one, Jeebus.

I don't mean that those answers aren't valid (I don't actually know), I just mean I'd probably feel similar in his position.  Ive had similar things happen on projects where I've gone and done something and then someone else went and did different overlapping things.  Nobody necessarily in the wrong, but you still kind of feel "well I already bdid all this stuff...."
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Re: Scripting Dominion
« Reply #40 on: September 30, 2016, 04:28:21 pm »
0

Because we have the actual rules?  And Donald X's actual rulings compiled neatly in one place?  And community consensus about strategy and whatnot?  It just seems redundant, really.  Maybe the people who started the wiki didn't know about Jeebus' document?  Honestly, I hadn't even heard of it until he announced he was adding Empires to it.  I mean, there are a lot of "Dominion compendium"s out there.  Yours isn't the only one, Jeebus.

With that post I think you have me beat by a mile in the "condescending" category.

Ok, I think you're just not reading anything of what I wrote. "Donald X's actual rulings compiled neatly in one place" was exactly what I had before the wiki even started. (And it's still more complete than the wiki in that regard.) What you haven't heard about is totally on you and irrelevant. Also, if you read the post I linked to, they did know about it. (Also, when you start a wiki for a boardgame that's going to include rulings, the first place you should look is any FAQ on BGG.)

There is only one other "Dominion compendium", by Whaleyland on BGG, and he wanted it to have rulings too, so I gave him permission to use mine. I'm not entirely satisfied with how he's been using them, suffice it to say it creates a bit of confusion, and after I upgraded my BGG FAQ into an actual PDF document I think he's phasing out rulings now and refocusing his document on published stuff. So really there is only my document and the wiki.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2016, 04:38:30 pm by Jeebus »
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Re: Scripting Dominion
« Reply #41 on: September 30, 2016, 04:38:29 pm »
+2

Can we just have the actual document on the Wiki?

To clarify what I mean, I mean: I've never seen Jeebus' rule document.  This is because I clicked on the link in his sig and it took me to some BGG site, and I didn't see a pdf and I'm like, I don't want to be on that site.  Then I see that you can access a pdf, but you have to create an account and log in, and that's way too much of a commitment.  Ain't nobody got time for that.  On the other hand, if the entire thing were viewable through this site, through the wiki, I would have seen this document.
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Re: Scripting Dominion
« Reply #42 on: September 30, 2016, 05:03:44 pm »
0

Because we have the actual rules?  And Donald X's actual rulings compiled neatly in one place?  And community consensus about strategy and whatnot?  It just seems redundant, really.  Maybe the people who started the wiki didn't know about Jeebus' document?  Honestly, I hadn't even heard of it until he announced he was adding Empires to it.  I mean, there are a lot of "Dominion compendium"s out there.  Yours isn't the only one, Jeebus.

With that post I think you have me beat by a mile in the "condescending" category.

I mean, if you say so.  *shrug*

Ok, I think you're just not reading anything of what I wrote. "Donald X's actual rulings compiled neatly in one place" was exactly what I had before the wiki even started. (And it's still more complete than the wiki in that regard.)

You keep saying that, but you don't provide any examples.

What you haven't heard about is totally on you and irrelevant.

Uh, how exactly is it my fault that I hadn't heard about something?  Bear in mind I didn't start the wiki - I came in a couple years ago, once it was already up and running.

Also, if you read the post I linked to, they did know about it. (Also, when you start a wiki for a boardgame that's going to include rulings, the first place you should look is any FAQ on BGG.)

I mean, if you say so?  I really only look at BGG when the forum is down, so...

There is only one other "Dominion compendium", by Whaleyland on BGG, and he wanted it to have rulings too, so I gave him permission to use mine. I'm not entirely satisfied with how he's been using them, suffice it to say it creates a bit of confusion, and after I upgraded my BGG FAQ into an actual PDF document I think he's phasing out rulings now and refocusing his document on published stuff. So really there is only my document and the wiki.

Fair point.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2016, 05:08:07 pm by werothegreat »
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Re: Scripting Dominion
« Reply #43 on: September 30, 2016, 06:06:24 pm »
0

You keep saying that, but you don't provide any examples.

I did give you two. But I'm not trying to convince you with examples, no. I'm just stating how it is.

Uh, how exactly is it my fault that I hadn't heard about something?  Bear in mind I didn't start the wiki - I came in a couple years ago, once it was already up and running.

I was not blaming you for how the wiki started. And I was not blaming you for not having heard of my FAQ/doc. I just said that it was irrelevant to whatever point you were making about it. My main point was just to explain how it came to be that my doc has other stuff than the wiki, that's it.

Also, if you read the post I linked to, they did know about it. (Also, when you start a wiki for a boardgame that's going to include rulings, the first place you should look is any FAQ on BGG.)

I mean, if you say so?  I really only look at BGG when the forum is down, so...

Do you know other boardgame resources you would go to for that kind of thing? Or maybe you only play Dominion. If so, your ignorance of the significance of BGG is understandable.

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Re: Scripting Dominion
« Reply #44 on: September 30, 2016, 06:10:37 pm »
+5

This site is the only board game information source I use, or really know of.  I mean, I know what BGG is, but I only go there when things are linked there from this site.  If I ever need to look up something about Dominion, this is the site I think of.
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Re: Scripting Dominion
« Reply #45 on: October 01, 2016, 01:35:16 am »
0

You keep saying that, but you don't provide any examples.

I did give you two. But I'm not trying to convince you with examples, no. I'm just stating how it is.

The Beggar thing, and dividing lines?  I mean, that you put the Silver onto your deck first would seem to be implied by the official FAQ, but I guess it could be explicitly stated in a clarification, though I don't really think that's necessary.  And does the wiki really need an article for dividing lines?  I mean, maybe.

Look, I feel like this is either becoming or might soon become antagonistic, and that's not really what I want to happen.
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Re: Scripting Dominion
« Reply #46 on: October 01, 2016, 01:45:18 am »
0

I just realized we don't have an article for "Card" in the gameplay sense (rather than the piece-of-thin-cardboard sense).  Maybe we could put something similar to your "reading a card" section there.
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Re: Scripting Dominion
« Reply #47 on: October 01, 2016, 10:16:33 am »
0

The Beggar thing, and dividing lines?  I mean, that you put the Silver onto your deck first would seem to be implied by the official FAQ, but I guess it could be explicitly stated in a clarification, though I don't really think that's necessary.  And does the wiki really need an article for dividing lines?  I mean, maybe.

Yes, those two.

Beggar: I refer you to this thread. As I said, I also think it's implied. That didn't stop ShuffleIT and other people from misunderstanding it. Actually, most things in the actual FAQs are implied by the actual card texts, and as such strictly unneeded, but they are of course helpful and often needed after all (and are all included in the wiki).

Dividing line: I'm surprised you would say that, since it has been explained that it has an actual functional purpose and as such rules that come with it. Donald has said that it should've been in the rulebook - and has now put it in. If you're asking whether the wiki needs an actual article solely for the dividing line, I have no idea or opinion. Maybe it belongs in another article. I was just saying that it should be included.

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Re: Scripting Dominion
« Reply #48 on: October 01, 2016, 11:16:19 am »
+6

Dear f.ds,


One of the cards I posted here is in conflict with the Dominion rules, even though it would have been fine pre Adventures.
Why o why haven't you complained about that yet?

Why o why didn't you read my rules document to find out how Beggar works? ;) It's the one place were all rulings and explanations are collected, so it should really be checked for all cards.

My problem here was that I assumed I knew how beggar worked. Therefore I wasn't looking for any additional information. Not in your rules document, not on the wiki.
I would like to say "I learned from my mistake" but in reality it's quite unlikely it hasn't already happened for more cards, and it will probably also continue to happen.
Not making any assumptions simply isn't an option.

When I am in doubt, your rules document is certainly something I do consult. And I also check the wiki.
And when nothing else helps, PMs to Donald have been very helpful too. Unfortunately most of those questions had to be secret (2E) but I guess from here on I can ask them in de rules section of this forum again. The answers to those questions... I can imagine you'd want to add them to your document.
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Re: Scripting Dominion
« Reply #49 on: October 01, 2016, 12:03:11 pm »
0

And when nothing else helps, PMs to Donald have been very helpful too. Unfortunately most of those questions had to be secret (2E) but I guess from here on I can ask them in de rules section of this forum again. The answers to those questions... I can imagine you'd want to add them to your document.

Yes, please! Anything not already public would be very appreciated. I'm in the process of updating my doc now. I haven't actually found anything confusing, the cards are pretty simple, but I'm sure there's something.
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