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Author Topic: Prince + loose track  (Read 2675 times)

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Alsterschwan

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Prince + loose track
« on: August 07, 2016, 03:10:27 pm »
+1

Does Prince loose track of the Action, if it leaves play before Clean-up, although that Action got played again? I assume so, but seek confirmation:

played Fortress from Prince
trashed that Fortress with Bon Fire
bought Villa
played that Fortress

Does that Fortress gets set aside again? I assume no. By instinct i would say loose track applies.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Prince + loose track
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2016, 03:28:54 pm »
+3

It does, I'd say.
Cause Prince doesn't know what foretress that is
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werothegreat

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Re: Prince + loose track
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2016, 05:55:32 pm »
+2

The Fortress is lost track of and is not set aside again.
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ConMan

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Re: Prince + loose track
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2016, 07:42:28 pm »
+2

Yep, it's lost track of. The question first came up in the context of Princing a Reserve card, to which the response was "Once the Guide goes into the tavern, the Prince can't work out which one he's meant to be patronising". Or thereabouts.
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Asper

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Re: Prince + loose track
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2016, 08:43:35 am »
+2

Yep, it's lost track of. The question first came up in the context of Princing a Reserve card, to which the response was "Once the Guide goes into the tavern, the Prince can't work out which one he's meant to be patronising". Or thereabouts.

"My prince, it's me!"
"Leave me alone, you drunkard! I don't know your kind!"
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Prince + loose track
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2016, 11:05:48 pm »
+1

I once Princed a gear and accidentally set aside cards with gear. I was sad.
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Davio

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Re: Prince + loose track
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2016, 04:11:36 am »
0

The official rule is this:
Quote
In rare circumstances an effect may try to move a card that is not where that effect expects the card to be. In those cases the card does not move - the effect has "lost track" of the card.

So here the card is Fortress, the effect is Prince's "setting it aside again when you discard it from play", the place it expects the card to be is the play area. We can fulfill all of these conditions, so I would expect that Prince is able to set Fortress aside again.

I would argue that whatever happens in the meantime is irrelevant as long as you can find the exact card that you initially played with Prince and are able to set it aside again.

However, a lot has been written both by Donald and others about how lose-track applies to these kinds of things, so I'm not exactly sure what the ruling would be, I can only argue about what I think would make the most sense.

I once Princed a gear and accidentally set aside cards with gear. I was sad.
You know, I only noticed because of your comment that it's "up to 2", not: "exactly 2".  :-[
You learn something everyday.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2016, 04:13:47 am by Davio »
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Prince + loose track
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2016, 04:41:35 am »
0

It 'doesn't know' that that fortress is the correct fortress. That's the point.
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Dominionaer

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Re: Prince + loose track
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2016, 04:46:28 am »
0

... as long as you can find the exact card that you initially played with Prince and are able to set it aside again.

How do you prove it is the same?
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Davio

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Re: Prince + loose track
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2016, 05:15:19 am »
0

Who cares about what cards think? Cards can't think!
I can think, my opponent can think and we can both come to the conclusion that it's the very same Fortress using the power of observation.
We could put a sticker on the front of the card to be able to track it and once it's back in the play area, see if it has that sticker and remove it; which it does.

I know that lately the rulings have been going in the other direction, but I don't think it's very helpful to be so precise when it's not needed.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Prince + loose track
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2016, 07:47:12 am »
0

I imagine prince having a wite to a card a d if you do anything with the crd, the wire is cut and it looses track.
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SkyHard

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Re: Prince + loose track
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2016, 08:10:36 am »
0

The official rule is this:
Quote
In rare circumstances an effect may try to move a card that is not where that effect expects the card to be. In those cases the card does not move - the effect has "lost track" of the card.

So here the card is Fortress, the effect is Prince's "setting it aside again when you discard it from play", the place it expects the card to be is the play area. We can fulfill all of these conditions, so I would expect that Prince is able to set Fortress aside again.

I would argue that whatever happens in the meantime is irrelevant as long as you can find the exact card that you initially played with Prince and are able to set it aside again.

However, a lot has been written both by Donald and others about how lose-track applies to these kinds of things, so I'm not exactly sure what the ruling would be, I can only argue about what I think would make the most sense.

I agree with you. It cannot be another forteress, since the forteress goes back to you hand if trashed. IMHO it's not the same as a reserve card. Of course, one could argue that the forteress is not at the exact same position in play...
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Chris is me

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Re: Prince + loose track
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2016, 08:30:52 am »
+4

Who cares about what cards think? Cards can't think!
I can think, my opponent can think and we can both come to the conclusion that it's the very same Fortress using the power of observation.
We could put a sticker on the front of the card to be able to track it and once it's back in the play area, see if it has that sticker and remove it; which it does.

I know that lately the rulings have been going in the other direction, but I don't think it's very helpful to be so precise when it's not needed.

Your opponent can't verify it's the same Fortress (excluding edge cases with an empty or visible hand, only 1 copy, never discarding cards, etc). Only you can. You could have had another Fortress. I think it's less about it being the Same Exact Card and more about how it could have not been the same card and in the cases where that is possible there isn't a way to verify that information. So for consistency it applies to all situations.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Prince + loose track
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2016, 11:16:01 am »
+1

Remember, lose track applies even if the top card of your discard is simply covered up for a second and then uncovered. So there's no doubt that it would apply to a Fortress that returns to your hand and then is played again.
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SkyHard

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Re: Prince + loose track
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2016, 02:17:37 am »
0

Who cares about what cards think? Cards can't think!
I can think, my opponent can think and we can both come to the conclusion that it's the very same Fortress using the power of observation.
We could put a sticker on the front of the card to be able to track it and once it's back in the play area, see if it has that sticker and remove it; which it does.

I know that lately the rulings have been going in the other direction, but I don't think it's very helpful to be so precise when it's not needed.

Your opponent can't verify it's the same Fortress (excluding edge cases with an empty or visible hand, only 1 copy, never discarding cards, etc). Only you can. You could have had another Fortress. I think it's less about it being the Same Exact Card and more about how it could have not been the same card and in the cases where that is possible there isn't a way to verify that information. So for consistency it applies to all situations.

Thanks. That does make sense. I see my mistake now.
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Jeebus

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Re: Prince + loose track
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2016, 01:07:36 pm »
+1

It's true that the cards can't think or know anything. It's often misleading to phrase it that way. The point is that it's not possible to know which card it is in all scenarios of the given interaction, exactly like Chris is me said.

But the main point is the actual rule (which is not 100% correctly stated in the rulebooks): What causes a card to be lost track of, is that it's moved from the expected location by another effect, not that it isn't presently located in the expected location. That means that it's lost track of even if it moves and then moves back.

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Re: Prince + loose track
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2016, 01:09:49 pm »
0

It's true that the cards can't think or know anything. It's often misleading to phrase it that way. The point is that it's not possible to know which card it is in all scenarios of the given interaction, exactly like Chris is me said.

But the main point is the actual rule (which is not 100% correctly stated in the rulebooks): What causes a card to be lost track of, is that it's moved from the expected location by another effect, not that it isn't presently located in the expected location. That means that it's lost track of even if it moves and then moves back.

In other words, the cards are only loosely tracked!
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