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diedre91

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Opponent saved by an outpost turn
« on: August 01, 2016, 08:02:35 am »
+2



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Travelling Fair, Hamlet, Doctor, Mining Village, Moneylender, Governor, Mandarin, Outpost, Adventurer, Farmland, Prince
http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160801/log.0.1470018201716.txt

Governors were split 5/5. My opponent buys a Outpost on his turn 10. My deck was thinner than his (I got two Moneylenders and remodeled silvers into MV/Governors) and his chances of stalling on a Outpost turn were pretty high. However, he gets a hand of 2xGovernors, Province and wins the game, grabbing the last Province (on his Outpost turn!!). Really lucky!

We learn how to better play Dominion by testing options. You optimize things but sometimes luck shows up.
The same happens when you collide your only two terminal actions and want to buy a Village. Maybe you do not need it!
We have to be tough to believe in probabilities and keep playing as turns like this does not happen often.
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DG

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Re: Opponent saved by an outpost turn
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2016, 09:04:30 am »
+5

Your opponent wasn't particularly lucky. In one sense he was actually unlucky since all those good cards for his outpost turn were near the bottom of his deck after the last shuffle, so he needed two turns plus an outpost turn to eventually find them.

Even when you're unlucky there are usually things you can do to improve your play. Here for example I'm not sure why you bought a second moneylender when there are reasonable alternatives and an opportunistic doctor could come later. You never found time to get a hamlet.
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diedre91

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Re: Opponent saved by an outpost turn
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2016, 09:27:38 am »
0

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I might not played this game optimally but I believe my chances of winning were better than for my opponent.

Your opponent wasn't particularly lucky. In one sense he was actually unlucky since all those good cards for his outpost turn were near the bottom of his deck after the last shuffle, so he needed two turns plus an outpost turn to eventually find them.
It is a way to see that.  :D

Here for example I'm not sure why you bought a second moneylender when there are reasonable alternatives and an opportunistic doctor could come later.
I do not believe a second Moneylender was that bad. But yeah Doctor can be a faster trasher at the beginning

You never found time to get a hamlet.
I do not see why Hamlet was any better than MV
« Last Edit: August 01, 2016, 09:39:03 am by diedre91 »
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Seprix

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Re: Opponent saved by an outpost turn
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2016, 09:41:48 am »
+1

But that's the thing: A second Moneylender is pretty awful. That's two useless terminal cards once you clear out the coppers.
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Re: Opponent saved by an outpost turn
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2016, 10:14:21 am »
+3

But that's the thing: A second Moneylender is pretty awful. That's two useless terminal cards once you clear out the coppers.

It's not AS bad in a Governor game since you can Remodel it on an opponent's turn into a Governor or Duchy or something. But it's much less defendable than, say, two Spice Merchant in a Governor game, which is actually a good idea.
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Re: Opponent saved by an outpost turn
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2016, 10:15:34 am »
+1

$4-cost cards can become either Governor or Duchy on an opponent trash.  Either option can be a nuisance and can help with the Governor split or be unexpected VP.  In Governor mirrors you rarely get a mega turn gaining all the Provinces.  Finding ways to get a few extra Duchies can help in endgame control.

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Re: Opponent saved by an outpost turn
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2016, 10:20:35 am »
+3

But that's the thing: A second Moneylender is pretty awful. That's two useless terminal cards once you clear out the coppers.

It's not AS bad in a Governor game since you can Remodel it on an opponent's turn into a Governor or Duchy or something. But it's much less defendable than, say, two Spice Merchant in a Governor game, which is actually a good idea.

Let's not be talking a bunch of edgecases. Second Moneylender here is bad, period. Mining Village is much better of a buy, both for surprise Remodels and burning on the last turn.
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Re: Opponent saved by an outpost turn
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2016, 10:42:05 am »
+1

But that's the thing: A second Moneylender is pretty awful. That's two useless terminal cards once you clear out the coppers.

It's not AS bad in a Governor game since you can Remodel it on an opponent's turn into a Governor or Duchy or something. But it's much less defendable than, say, two Spice Merchant in a Governor game, which is actually a good idea.

Let's not be talking a bunch of edgecases. Second Moneylender here is bad, period. Mining Village is much better of a buy, both for surprise Remodels and burning on the last turn.

Duchy and Governor are always options on a Governor board, these aren't extreme edge cases.  I like Hamlet as a Village on this board as it is also a +Buy option.  Moneylender is not just about clearing Copper here, it's also for hitting $5 which it does quite well at.  If you open Hamlet/Moneylender on this board you can support a 2nd Moneylender without the extra Silver.
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diedre91

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Re: Opponent saved by an outpost turn
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2016, 11:05:34 am »
0

But that's the thing: A second Moneylender is pretty awful. That's two useless terminal cards once you clear out the coppers.

It's not AS bad in a Governor game since you can Remodel it on an opponent's turn into a Governor or Duchy or something. But it's much less defendable than, say, two Spice Merchant in a Governor game, which is actually a good idea.

Let's not be talking a bunch of edgecases. Second Moneylender here is bad, period. Mining Village is much better of a buy, both for surprise Remodels and burning on the last turn.

You might be right since I trashed the same number of coppers as my opponent, with an additional moneylender.

How you guys feel about Outpost? Is it worth the risk?
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Re: Opponent saved by an outpost turn
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2016, 11:18:48 am »
+1

But that's the thing: A second Moneylender is pretty awful. That's two useless terminal cards once you clear out the coppers.

It's not AS bad in a Governor game since you can Remodel it on an opponent's turn into a Governor or Duchy or something. But it's much less defendable than, say, two Spice Merchant in a Governor game, which is actually a good idea.

Let's not be talking a bunch of edgecases. Second Moneylender here is bad, period. Mining Village is much better of a buy, both for surprise Remodels and burning on the last turn.

You might be right since I trashed the same number of coppers as my opponent, with an additional moneylender.

How you guys feel about Outpost? Is it worth the risk?

Getting a second Moneylender just gets you thinner 7 coppers a little quicker. It's not about thinning more or less. It's about speed and cost. I'm not sure it's worth it to add another terminal to your deck for a little quicker trashing in this particular case. Sure, there's a good chance that it gets Remodeled into a Duchy/Governor, but Mining Village does the same thing, and it is a cycling Silver when you need it basically.
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Re: Opponent saved by an outpost turn
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2016, 11:29:48 am »
+3

How you guys feel about Outpost? Is it worth the risk?

You really want to take the last turn in a governor game, and outpost helps you do that. Prince synergizes nicely with outpost as well, if you have a chance to pick it up

In terms of setup, Doctor looks like an interesting way to trash estates before getting remodeled into governor.

Of course, on this type of board, how the shuffles play out is quite important in strategy selection
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Re: Opponent saved by an outpost turn
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2016, 01:12:46 pm »
+1

But that's the thing: A second Moneylender is pretty awful. That's two useless terminal cards once you clear out the coppers.

It's not AS bad in a Governor game since you can Remodel it on an opponent's turn into a Governor or Duchy or something. But it's much less defendable than, say, two Spice Merchant in a Governor game, which is actually a good idea.

Let's not be talking a bunch of edgecases. Second Moneylender here is bad, period. Mining Village is much better of a buy, both for surprise Remodels and burning on the last turn.

How is talking about a specific game not by definition an "edge case"? Or games with Governor and a particular card we're discussing, that is a part of this kingdom?

I probably wouldn't have gone with a second Moneylender here, sure, but there's a fairly good argument for thinning quickly on a Governor board, and this gives you something else to make your Estates into. Governor boards are very much speed boards and you need to establish control very early to win splits, plus Moneylender is a big help for hitting $5.

I think I'd probably get one moneylender and one Doctor and hope for some luck trashing Estates with it before Remodeling it into another Governor.
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Seprix

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Re: Opponent saved by an outpost turn
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2016, 01:42:24 pm »
0

But that's the thing: A second Moneylender is pretty awful. That's two useless terminal cards once you clear out the coppers.

It's not AS bad in a Governor game since you can Remodel it on an opponent's turn into a Governor or Duchy or something. But it's much less defendable than, say, two Spice Merchant in a Governor game, which is actually a good idea.

Let's not be talking a bunch of edgecases. Second Moneylender here is bad, period. Mining Village is much better of a buy, both for surprise Remodels and burning on the last turn.

How is talking about a specific game not by definition an "edge case"? Or games with Governor and a particular card we're discussing, that is a part of this kingdom?


Because we're talking about this game, and not Governor games in general?
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Re: Opponent saved by an outpost turn
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2016, 02:08:09 pm »
+3

But that's the thing: A second Moneylender is pretty awful. That's two useless terminal cards once you clear out the coppers.

It's not AS bad in a Governor game since you can Remodel it on an opponent's turn into a Governor or Duchy or something. But it's much less defendable than, say, two Spice Merchant in a Governor game, which is actually a good idea.

Let's not be talking a bunch of edgecases. Second Moneylender here is bad, period. Mining Village is much better of a buy, both for surprise Remodels and burning on the last turn.

How is talking about a specific game not by definition an "edge case"? Or games with Governor and a particular card we're discussing, that is a part of this kingdom?


Because we're talking about this game, and not Governor games in general?

This is a game with Governor and Moneylender in it. Discussing games with Governor and Moneylender in it is relevant to this discussion because this game is one of those games.
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Seprix

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Re: Opponent saved by an outpost turn
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2016, 03:02:18 pm »
0

But that's the thing: A second Moneylender is pretty awful. That's two useless terminal cards once you clear out the coppers.

It's not AS bad in a Governor game since you can Remodel it on an opponent's turn into a Governor or Duchy or something. But it's much less defendable than, say, two Spice Merchant in a Governor game, which is actually a good idea.

Let's not be talking a bunch of edgecases. Second Moneylender here is bad, period. Mining Village is much better of a buy, both for surprise Remodels and burning on the last turn.

How is talking about a specific game not by definition an "edge case"? Or games with Governor and a particular card we're discussing, that is a part of this kingdom?


Because we're talking about this game, and not Governor games in general?

This is a game with Governor and Moneylender in it. Discussing games with Governor and Moneylender in it is relevant to this discussion because this game is one of those games.

Discussing any game but the one at hand is irrelevant, because edgecase.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Opponent saved by an outpost turn
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2016, 03:38:10 pm »
+2

But that's the thing: A second Moneylender is pretty awful. That's two useless terminal cards once you clear out the coppers.

It's not AS bad in a Governor game since you can Remodel it on an opponent's turn into a Governor or Duchy or something. But it's much less defendable than, say, two Spice Merchant in a Governor game, which is actually a good idea.

Let's not be talking a bunch of edgecases. Second Moneylender here is bad, period. Mining Village is much better of a buy, both for surprise Remodels and burning on the last turn.

How is talking about a specific game not by definition an "edge case"? Or games with Governor and a particular card we're discussing, that is a part of this kingdom?


Because we're talking about this game, and not Governor games in general?

This is a game with Governor and Moneylender in it. Discussing games with Governor and Moneylender in it is relevant to this discussion because this game is one of those games.

Discussing any game but the one at hand is irrelevant, because edgecase.

I don't understand your position here.  Your arguments seem to go against your point.  This game features Governor and Moneylender, so it's interaction between those cards is relevant.  Therefore, the fact that you can remodel Moneylender to a Governor play isn't an edge case but something that should actually be considered as relevant.
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Re: Opponent saved by an outpost turn
« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2016, 03:40:41 pm »
0

But that's the thing: A second Moneylender is pretty awful. That's two useless terminal cards once you clear out the coppers.

It's not AS bad in a Governor game since you can Remodel it on an opponent's turn into a Governor or Duchy or something. But it's much less defendable than, say, two Spice Merchant in a Governor game, which is actually a good idea.

Let's not be talking a bunch of edgecases. Second Moneylender here is bad, period. Mining Village is much better of a buy, both for surprise Remodels and burning on the last turn.

How is talking about a specific game not by definition an "edge case"? Or games with Governor and a particular card we're discussing, that is a part of this kingdom?


Because we're talking about this game, and not Governor games in general?

This is a game with Governor and Moneylender in it. Discussing games with Governor and Moneylender in it is relevant to this discussion because this game is one of those games.

Discussing any game but the one at hand is irrelevant, because edgecase.

I don't want to keep this ridiculous back and forth going, but I was discussing the interaction between two cards that were both in the kingdom, in the specific context of analyzing a game decision made. The only reference I made to anything that doesn't apply to this game was comparing the effect of Moneylender to a very similar card, Spice Merchant, to compare and contrast the abilities of the cards and how their differences inform the decision to buy them or not.

What part of my post do you feel was not relevant advice and discussion about this game? Or do you just want to say the word "edgecase" again?
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Re: Opponent saved by an outpost turn
« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2016, 04:42:56 am »
+4

A cool thing might come up on this board:
You are in the middle of your turn, you have
  • played a village
  • a Doctor in hand
  • an Outpost in hand
  • a Governor in hand

So. You can play the Doctor and if you see a Governor on top thrash him you then NOT draw him with the other Governor, but rather play it (a Governor which is in your hand already) for something else and play an Outpost to guarantee your little turn is not a complete Navigator art.

Archive and put on shelf 5347 of Vault 73 of not so useful Dominion advices,
but while doing so don't forget to say "edgec-a-a-a-ase", snap your fingers and take a candy, there are a lot of nice candies in Vault 73.

smcrtorchs

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Re: Opponent saved by an outpost turn
« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2016, 11:24:26 am »
0

This is a nice board, I gave it a few tries, as governors seem to puzzle me quite a bit lately. I believe this is a double doctor opening, while you aggresively trash silvers as well at the end game, as you do not care at all about drawing them and they are like curses. A hamlet is essential here to help the doctor trashing. Outpost seems necessary as well. The decks that come up in a mirror are too thin and therefore the important of a sixth governor is much much smaller. The initiative of starting getting provinces on the other hand is very important. Therefore in most cases, you probably do better by giving up getting a sixth governor if you could, just to grab the initiative.

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Re: Opponent saved by an outpost turn
« Reply #19 on: August 11, 2016, 11:52:04 am »
0

If there even is a board where opening double Doctor is the right move, it's not this one. You need to win the Governor split, and to have a chance of that your opening needs to enable a $5 buy on the second shuffle. Even when you're thin (especially when you're thin) having extra Governors to mill Provinces with is essential.

Also, I'm not totally convinced you NEED Hamlet here. Traveling Fair gives you an extra buy in a pinch.
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Re: Opponent saved by an outpost turn
« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2016, 07:37:17 am »
+1

Here is a game where double doctor should be best, the 2 of the 3 BM (big M's) that play the game, both go for that opening.

http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160730/log.0.1469895238288.txt


Governor is a very tricky card. I defenitely do not expect to lose the governor split by going double doctor here, but I could be wrong to this. In fact if you would like to play the board a couple of times with me to test this point, then I would also like it. If you go aggro with the governors here and I go double doctor, you help me a lot, as those initial silvers or extra cards are a big deal to me. But certainly it is not the end of the world if I do lose the split, in a game containing outpost which enables me to play 8 governors per turn.

According to what I understand, the 6th governor is often toxic to buy even on other boards as it also helps the opponent and you are often ready to fire when the decks are thin with 5 governors and some golds. Keep buying governors after those 5 and opp will come closer to a win. It is often the case that you win a governor board on more turns but you have a higher chance to win it, as you buy/use governors less and help opp less in that sense.

The problem with governor is that I cannot really post any logs that make sense to see, as you need a series of logs, where you not only take in mind your result, but also your opp's result as you help him a lot with the governors.

The hamlet is here more to help the doctors to trash and even 2 can be handy on this board. By opening double doctor, you do not help opp until the end. If you go aggro with the governors, and I have no silvers in my deck, but you have 2 or 3 silvers, it makes a huge difference as there is no alternative draw here and if you use a governor to draw a silver and 2 more cards which is like a curse in the end game and draw opp a card, then effectively your governor play does not benefit you at all more than the opp, it is a lab for both of you. So you do care to be as thin as hell here.

Anyway, I do give some logs to check the first turns of the double doctor opening if you want, as I said before it really does not make sense to look at the end results, if you have nothing to compare them with. And also I do not add the outpost at the optimal point in many cases, so this is another point, not to look at the end results.


Bot opens governor and gives me early silver
http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160811/log.0.1470927835802.txt

No help from the bot at the early game

http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160811/log.0.1470928188049.txt


Being lucky enough to buy a governor at turn 4 even with double doctor and no help. Things like this can happen and should be taken to account

http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160811/log.0.1470928472666.txt

Here I have 6 governors by turn 8, getting the first on turn 5. I am not saying that if opp chose to draw instead of giving me silvers I would have that many, but did you expect that after a double doctor opening?

http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160811/log.0.1470925604245.txt

Here is a doctor silver opening, where I forgot to get an outpost and which does manage to give me a governor by turn 4 and does pretty well. I just feel that I help opp more than in the other cases, and if opp had given me more silvers and my luck with the doctor was not that good, then probably things would have been different. These are a lot of things that do add up eventually and favor the duble doctor, which I feel also has a lower bad variance in comparison to the doctor silver opening. In other words, it is less affected by bad luck which in the case of silver doctor would be mainly having bad doctor luck and to a secondary extent, not reaching 5 turn 3 or 4 anyways. With 2 doctors it is more difficult to have bad doctor luck as well.

http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160811/log.0.1470925357769.txt

Here is another silver doctor opening, but I am not lucky there, or I make a wrong doctor choice, but it is not clear to me what it is best to say copper or estate there.

http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160811/log.0.1470921927229.txt

Here is the last silver doctor opening I tried, here I trash 1 estate instead of 2 coppers in the similar decision of naming copper vs estate above, but my next doctor is also not that lucky.

http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160811/log.0.1470922346554.txt


I do not hink I have any other meaningful logs to share, even though the logs are to get an idea of the few next turns after the openings and not to compare end results.




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