Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1]

Author Topic: Ferry/Prince Might be a Thing  (Read 3172 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Trogdor the Burninator

  • Golem
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 176
  • Respect: +76
    • View Profile
Ferry/Prince Might be a Thing
« on: July 30, 2016, 12:49:33 am »
0

Just played a game (vs a bot) where the one of the events was Ferry and there was Prince in the Kingdom. Kingdom also had cards like Goons.
Didn't save the log, but basic plan was to use Ferry to get cheaper Prince early, then switch minus $2 token to Goons, then Prince the Goons. I ended up winning by like 30. It was against a bot so that might haven an effect in how lopsided the win was but I imagine forcing the other player to discard two cards every single turn could have a pretty negative effect on them depending on the Kingdom (getting at least one extra victory point every turn was nice, too  8) ).
Logged
Dominion.games username: Jolinar of Malkshur





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHF_bIjIPAE

(I did not create the Trogdor the Burninator song nor am I associated with its producers in any way.  I just think it sounds cool. :P)

Doom_Shark

  • Tactician
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 434
  • Shuffle iT Username: Doom_Shark
  • Respect: +410
    • View Profile
Re: Ferry/Prince Might be a Thing
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2016, 02:26:50 am »
0

I would just like to point out that forcing your opponents to discard two every turn was already possible by princing militia...but princed attacks are pretty good in general. Although certainly more so with handsize attacks than junkers, since junkers have a limit as to how many times they actually attack
Logged
"I swear to drunk I'm not officer, God."
Generation 33 The first time you see this, copy it, add 1 to the generation number, and add it to your signature. (On any forum) Social experiment.

drsteelhammer

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1527
  • Shuffle iT Username: drsteelhammer
  • Respect: +1471
    • View Profile
Re: Ferry/Prince Might be a Thing
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2016, 08:38:18 am »
0

I played a fun one with this aswell, Princing a Ghost Ship and two Torturers on a board with no villages:

http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160506/log.0.1462541969019.txt
Logged
Join the Dominion League!

There is no bad shuffle that can not be surmounted by scorn.

JThorne

  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 299
  • Respect: +604
    • View Profile
Re: Ferry/Prince Might be a Thing
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2016, 10:52:35 am »
+1

Are the bots any good at Goons games? I would think playing Goons correctly would involve far too much judgement and planning. A Goons deck really wants to be a tight engine that plays as many Goons as possible and uses the multiplicative VP*buys effect to accumulate points by buying more engine parts and/or non-harmful cheap cantrips and/or coppers that you have some way to draw and trash next turn, all while completely ignoring green cards and watching pile control very, very carefully. I seriously doubt the bots can do that anything like effectively.

Winning the Goons split can be really critical. In most cases, Prince is definitely going to be a handy engine-enabler to get to your Goons more quickly and reliably, but I can't imagine prioritizing it so high that I would Ferry it first. That seems like a good way to lose the Goons split 5-3 or even 6-2, which is catastrophic.
Logged

Trogdor the Burninator

  • Golem
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 176
  • Respect: +76
    • View Profile
Re: Ferry/Prince Might be a Thing
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2016, 12:14:29 pm »
0

Winning the Goons split can be really critical. In most cases, Prince is definitely going to be a handy engine-enabler to get to your Goons more quickly and reliably, but I can't imagine prioritizing it so high that I would Ferry it first. That seems like a good way to lose the Goons split 5-3 or even 6-2, which is catastrophic.

That is a really good point. In that case a 3/4 opening is probably the best case opening scenario on this kind of board as it allows you to buy a Goons as early as your second turn.
Logged
Dominion.games username: Jolinar of Malkshur





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHF_bIjIPAE

(I did not create the Trogdor the Burninator song nor am I associated with its producers in any way.  I just think it sounds cool. :P)

Mic Qsenoch

  • 2015 DS Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1709
  • Respect: +4329
    • View Profile
Re: Ferry/Prince Might be a Thing
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2016, 03:37:11 pm »
+5

I think it's quite rare to have a game where the Goons split matters. I'd be happy to let my opponent take 6 Goons in almost every game if that meant I got more of the draw pieces. It's really hard to play 6 Goons in a mirror match. Getting to playing 4 is even quite a feat and usually more than enough to threaten piles and score a lot of points.
Logged

JThorne

  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 299
  • Respect: +604
    • View Profile
Re: Ferry/Prince Might be a Thing
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2016, 05:14:59 pm »
0

Quote
I think it's quite rare to have a game where the Goons split matters. I'd be happy to let my opponent take 6 Goons in almost every game if that meant I got more of the draw pieces.

Interesting. Thanks for the clarification. So you're saying that as good as Goons is, playing that many terminals is often so difficult that the process of getting enough pieces to get there depletes the piles fast enough that the game will end before the Goons split matters (at least when both players are cognizant of piles.)

So that makes me wonder, in the context of the original post: Don't you want to Ferry something that's likely to pile out; something you want a lot of copies of (especially if there's +buy in the kingdom?) It seems to me that Ferrying Prince first might backfire if that's the case. The original poster suggested that Ferry+Prince might be a thing, and I'm skeptical because Ferry is spectacular at allowing you to gain (or lose, if your opponent Ferries and you don't) massive quantities of a contested card, particularly power-$5s. Ferrying a card you don't actually want until mid-game (and still won't get for a shuffle or two even if you Ferry it) sounds like you might be slowing yourself down dramatically.
Logged

jomini

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1060
  • Respect: +768
    • View Profile
Re: Ferry/Prince Might be a Thing
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2016, 07:53:14 pm »
+3

I think it's quite rare to have a game where the Goons split matters. I'd be happy to let my opponent take 6 Goons in almost every game if that meant I got more of the draw pieces. It's really hard to play 6 Goons in a mirror match. Getting to playing 4 is even quite a feat and usually more than enough to threaten piles and score a lot of points.

The big ones I have found where the Goons split itself matters:
1. Page
2. Peasant
3. Lost Arts

Page can make the Goons split pretty big, particularly if you are trashing/Page on the opener. You do not pile a lot of stuff and non-terminal goons means you are not out of a second pile once you run the Goons.

Peasant & Lost arts can both make Goons easy to play in quantity, most often by dropping a +action on your draw pile. With even light trashing you typically can draw 6 Goons pretty easily and have the actions to play them (from a village) without piling anything except the Goons.

Exchanging cards, in general decreases the rate of piling, particularly if you are trashing or sifting to exchange faster instead of acquiring cards (e.g. Scouting Party, Expedition, Outpost, Hermit, etc.).

More situational:
3. Tac - you need to play 1 card to have 10 in hand for draw and it is a free action if you chain every turn. This means that you will pile the village and the Goons, but you need 8 buys to go after the estates. You only need 4 Tacs and you can go light on economy with all that draw. With light trashing, you can quickly get to 6 Goons and even if you lose the village split still play more the other guy, and trash out for 4 or 5 VP.
4. Kc - actions do not matter anymore, but you often do not need that many Kc's or anyone one particular card (e.g. 2 Smithies, 3 villages, and 3 cantrips are likely enough to leave you where you draw deck and play a bunch of Goons with more or less even Kc/Goons buys). Trashing helps again but +buy can make 3 pile instantly viable.
5. Herald - huge pile of +actions if you mix in a village (e.g. Bazaar, Lcity, or vanilla Village) in any quantity, and of course you want Plenty of Goons.
6. Wt - Okay, so you need extra villages and you will deplete the Wt pile somewhat, and you can burn off the curses for "free" ... but you can also have games where neither side wants to be the first to take a bite out of the curses and if you have two village piles you might want to exploit (e.g. a $3 and a $5 village) you can watch that curve climb for VP per turn. If Goons is the only +buy, you can then setup a turn where only you can end on it on your next turn.
7. Prssn/Fort. Massive +actions and you will pile a $5 (say the draw like Rabble) ... but again you can efficiently set up for six Goons without touching 3-pile territory.
9. Xroads. Not enough on its own by any stretch, but it gives you extra actions to play without completely emptying a village pile (and it is not like it is a bad play on $8, 2 buys if you want a Goons).

In general, though, I agree winning the villages is much more important for Goons. The more stuff you can play - trashing, draw, other attacks, etc. the better off your Goons engine runs. With Prince, the best thing on a Goons board is that it draws after the Goons hit so you can start the hand with more cards (e.g. Prince of Smithy or even Village).  I suspect that in most Goons game Ferry would not want to be on Goons or Prince, but instead on the village pile or maybe the draw pile.
Logged

Trogdor the Burninator

  • Golem
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 176
  • Respect: +76
    • View Profile
Re: Ferry/Prince Might be a Thing
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2016, 12:46:34 pm »
0

I think it's quite rare to have a game where the Goons split matters. I'd be happy to let my opponent take 6 Goons in almost every game if that meant I got more of the draw pieces. It's really hard to play 6 Goons in a mirror match. Getting to playing 4 is even quite a feat and usually more than enough to threaten piles and score a lot of points.

https://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160731/log.0.1469983377251.txt

I think having all the Goons can be important.  :P

« Last Edit: July 31, 2016, 12:50:58 pm by Trogdor the Burninator »
Logged
Dominion.games username: Jolinar of Malkshur





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHF_bIjIPAE

(I did not create the Trogdor the Burninator song nor am I associated with its producers in any way.  I just think it sounds cool. :P)

Kirian

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7096
  • Shuffle iT Username: Kirian
  • An Unbalanced Equation
  • Respect: +9413
    • View Profile
Re: Ferry/Prince Might be a Thing
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2016, 08:29:37 pm »
+2

I think it's quite rare to have a game where the Goons split matters. I'd be happy to let my opponent take 6 Goons in almost every game if that meant I got more of the draw pieces. It's really hard to play 6 Goons in a mirror match. Getting to playing 4 is even quite a feat and usually more than enough to threaten piles and score a lot of points.

https://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160731/log.0.1469983377251.txt

I think having all the Goons can be important.  :P



Games against bots are all but meaningless.
Logged
Kirian's Law of f.DS jokes:  Any sufficiently unexplained joke is indistinguishable from serious conversation.

Limetime

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1237
  • Shuffle iT Username: limetime
  • Respect: +1179
    • View Profile
Re: Ferry/Prince Might be a Thing
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2016, 11:11:28 pm »
0

I think it's quite rare to have a game where the Goons split matters. I'd be happy to let my opponent take 6 Goons in almost every game if that meant I got more of the draw pieces. It's really hard to play 6 Goons in a mirror match. Getting to playing 4 is even quite a feat and usually more than enough to threaten piles and score a lot of points.

https://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160731/log.0.1469983377251.txt

I think having all the Goons can be important.  :P
You still would have to won with 4 goons.
Logged
Pages: [1]
 

Page created in 0.249 seconds with 21 queries.