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Author Topic: Empires: The "Eat Your Vegetables" Expansion  (Read 19069 times)

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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: Empires: The "Eat Your Vegetables" Expansion
« Reply #25 on: August 01, 2016, 11:56:05 pm »
0

I think I could appreciate this thread a lot more if you listed the cards you're talking about....
Go to Rio Grande Games and download a copy of Empires, and all other rule books.
I think using the wiki would be much easier.
http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Empires

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Re: Empires: The "Eat Your Vegetables" Expansion
« Reply #26 on: August 03, 2016, 02:07:05 pm »
0

Whatever. My point is the information is available out there. All one needs to do is look for it. Manuals for offline viewing, wiki online.
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Re: Empires: The "Eat Your Vegetables" Expansion
« Reply #27 on: August 03, 2016, 02:18:10 pm »
+5

I think I could appreciate this thread a lot more if you listed the cards you're talking about....
Go to Rio Grande Games and download a copy of Empires, and all other rule books.

I could also write a post using a different language and then recommend that you use a language dictionary to read it; but I should probably just make it readable without external sources....
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Re: Empires: The "Eat Your Vegetables" Expansion
« Reply #28 on: August 07, 2016, 11:10:56 am »
+3

One of the most elegant and clever design decisions in Dominion, present from the very beginning with just the base set, is that victory cards are bad. Fundamentally, when players buy victory cards, they damage their deck, which slows them down so that the opponent(s) can catch up. Too many games neglect putting in a balancing mechanism like that, so when a player starts winning, they accelerate (I'm looking at you, Catan.) It takes careful and deliberate planning to get around that mechanism in Dominion, which is part of what makes engine-building so rewarding.

While I love Dominion and prefer it to Catan, Catan has two mechanisms that slow down a powerful player:

A:  The robber.  In a 4P game the robber should be on the most powerful player's space 75% of the time (and, if the powerful player buys development cards to mitigate the robber, these are resources he could be using to build cities - if he can do both, you're screwed either way). 
B:  Trade embargoes.  Basically when a player begins to get powerful, every other player should refuse to trade with him or her.  Let them deal with the bank or ports.

These are nowhere near as elegant as Dominion, but I've definitely played games with worse runaway leader problems (Acquire comes to mind immediately).  Catan's issue is more a runaway loser problem - if you get blocked off early or players place their initial settlements in a way you don't anticipate, you usually have almost no chance of winning.
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mameluke

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Re: Empires: The "Eat Your Vegetables" Expansion
« Reply #29 on: August 08, 2016, 12:38:19 am »
0

One of the most elegant and clever design decisions in Dominion, present from the very beginning with just the base set, is that victory cards are bad. Fundamentally, when players buy victory cards, they damage their deck, which slows them down so that the opponent(s) can catch up. Too many games neglect putting in a balancing mechanism like that, so when a player starts winning, they accelerate (I'm looking at you, Catan.) It takes careful and deliberate planning to get around that mechanism in Dominion, which is part of what makes engine-building so rewarding.

While I love Dominion and prefer it to Catan, Catan has two mechanisms that slow down a powerful player:

A:  The robber.  In a 4P game the robber should be on the most powerful player's space 75% of the time (and, if the powerful player buys development cards to mitigate the robber, these are resources he could be using to build cities - if he can do both, you're screwed either way). 
B:  Trade embargoes.  Basically when a player begins to get powerful, every other player should refuse to trade with him or her.  Let them deal with the bank or ports.

These are nowhere near as elegant as Dominion, but I've definitely played games with worse runaway leader problems (Acquire comes to mind immediately).  Catan's issue is more a runaway loser problem - if you get blocked off early or players place their initial settlements in a way you don't anticipate, you usually have almost no chance of winning.

Is this really true about Empires, anyways? I would think that fewer alt-VP cards and more emphasis on VP tokens instead of cards that clog your deck does *not* help slowing down the engine player/player who is ahead.
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JThorne

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Re: Empires: The "Eat Your Vegetables" Expansion
« Reply #30 on: August 08, 2016, 02:12:37 pm »
+2

Quote
Is this really true about Empires, anyways? I would think that fewer alt-VP cards and more emphasis on VP tokens instead of cards that clog your deck does *not* help slowing down the engine player/player who is ahead.

VP-gainers in Empires tend to give you junk in the form of curses, Estates, Duchies, or even terminal Temples you don't really want too many of. There are no Monuments. It's not VP instead of junk, it's VP in addition to junk, making the decisions much trickier. Sure, there's chariot Race, but boy you had better be sure that's the best thing to do or you're buying an awful lot of do-nothing cards. And there's Sacrifice, but at some point you'll have to actually buy more junk to trash or it stops working.

I played a very interesting kingdom yesterday with a lot of Empires in it. Colony game, Groundskeepers, Highway, Temple, Forum, Festival as the only +buy, and Moat as the only handsize-increaser. Tricky. I decided early that I was going to ignore Colonies and try to build a Groundskeeper engine, but with Festival as the only +buy, (and not wanting to trust Festival/Moat for draw!) I couldn't finish the turn with enough cards in hand to get a bunch of buys AND trash a pile of victory cards repeatedly. I had to time the greening over a few turns, planning on diminishing returns due to taking up more green than I could realistically trash each shuffle, and decide what to forum away based on whether I had enough Groundskeepers/Festivals in play to be worth picking up estates, or if this was going to be a turn for trashing the green cards that were getting in the way of my next turn. (I bought combinations of Duchies/Estates a few times just so that Forum had two differently-named cards to trash.)

I won by a large margin, but I'm also an idiot: It could have been so much better. I put my five Highways and some Festivals on the table early on to buy a bunch of free engine parts and completely neglected to pick up the whole Forum pile and mic-drop it into my discard. D'oh! I only saw my mistake later when I was actually in the process of crawling toward a three-pile and realized I could have done it many turns earlier. Who designs a card that says "when you buy this, +1 buy"? Not only is Empires the "Eat Your Vegetables" expansion, it's the "I thought I knew how to play this game" expansion.
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Re: Empires: The "Eat Your Vegetables" Expansion
« Reply #31 on: August 08, 2016, 02:37:41 pm »
0

I agree with 95% of the above post, but I just wanted to point out there is a Monument. Plunder is basically as close to a Monument as you could possibly get without it being the same card. Crown / Plunder strategies operate similarly to Throne / Monument ones.
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Re: Empires: The "Eat Your Vegetables" Expansion
« Reply #32 on: August 08, 2016, 03:31:42 pm »
+1

Quote
Is this really true about Empires, anyways? I would think that fewer alt-VP cards and more emphasis on VP tokens instead of cards that clog your deck does *not* help slowing down the engine player/player who is ahead.

VP-gainers in Empires tend to give you junk in the form of curses, Estates, Duchies, or even terminal Temples you don't really want too many of. There are no Monuments. It's not VP instead of junk, it's VP in addition to junk, making the decisions much trickier.

Even so, there isn't THAT much junk. In an engine, you're going to have trashing anyways, so getting rid of just one card per multiple VP gain is not that big of a deal. Just don't buy them until you've thinned down enough, like buying a Curse in an Ambassador game. Take Groundskeeper for instance -- it's easy to get multiples of these in play, and then all you have to do is buy a single Estate, or even a Province, which you want to do anyways. You only need to buy the one junk card to get a substantial benefit (sure, +buy makes it even better, but), and then you can trash it. Compare this to Goons, where it is hard to get multiples in play, and you really need to buy multiple cards for the huge benefit (although this is not restricted to green cards). To me it seems like the design of Empires of gaining VP tokens tied to gaining an Estate, etc. is to make sure the game ends at some point, not to slow down the player playing said card/event.

Now, with the lack of trashing available this is of course a lot more tricky. I don't think it's an accident that there is no non-terminal trashing in Empires, and even trashing more than one card in a turn is tricky. But cards like Junk Dealer, Forager, Upgrade, etc. are going to be a lot stronger with Empires cards on the board.

Personally, I find the strategy involved with cards like Gardens, Silk Road, Duke, etc. to be more interesting, since the power of those cards requires you to have (a lot of) them in your deck, which actively slows you down. I wonder what some of these drawback cards would have been like if you had to gain two Estates, or two Curses (a la Swamp Hag)
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Re: Empires: The "Eat Your Vegetables" Expansion
« Reply #33 on: August 09, 2016, 06:30:50 pm »
0

Quote
I agree with 95% of the above post, but I just wanted to point out there is a Monument. Plunder is basically as close to a Monument as you could possibly get without it being the same card. Crown / Plunder strategies operate similarly to Throne / Monument ones.

Yeah, I missed that one, though I did make a passing reference to it being an expensive silver. I thought about going through card by card and double-checking but I figured someone else would do it for me.

Interesting thought, though: I wonder which is going to be better more often? Monument is especially interesting with action-multipliers (KC, TR, RC, Procession, etc.) or cards that like actions (Pool, Minstrel, etc.) while Plunder just sits there in those kingdoms. Let's see, other than Crown, what else likes treasures? Venture? Magpie? It's not worth Counterfeiting. Hmm.
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Re: Empires: The "Eat Your Vegetables" Expansion
« Reply #34 on: August 09, 2016, 06:41:27 pm »
+1

D'oh! I only saw my mistake later when I was actually in the process of crawling toward a three-pile and realized I could have done it many turns earlier. Who designs a card that says "when you buy this, +1 buy"? Not only is Empires the "Eat Your Vegetables" expansion, it's the "I thought I knew how to play this game" expansion.
Like I mentioned in another thread, I think Empires is the most reading comprehension-intensive expansions yet. So many small things about cards that are easy to miss.
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Re: Empires: The "Eat Your Vegetables" Expansion
« Reply #35 on: August 09, 2016, 07:15:21 pm »
0

Quote
Take Groundskeeper for instance -- it's easy to get multiples of these in play, and then all you have to do is buy a single Estate, or even a Province, which you want to do anyways. You only need to buy the one junk card to get a substantial benefit (sure, +buy makes it even better, but), and then you can trash it.

Groundskeeper is actually a perfect example. There's another factor at work here: If you're playing them and not buying VP cards, Groundskeeper itself is junk! Worse than the $2 Pearl Diver. It's a do-nothing cantrip that costs $5. That's an enormous opportunity cost. You have to carefully time when to get them.

Sure, buying a province is something that you "want to do anyways" but Groundskeepers don't make it any easier to buy them. If you're skipping draw cards, villages, or even money in order to buy GPs, then you are, in fact, slowing yourself down. If you've got enough meat to start greening, but you spend a few turns buying GPs instead of VP cards, then you're also slowing yourself down; you're just doing it before you green instead of during.

Don't get me wrong, it still definitely benefits the engine player far more than BM/Rush strategies. However, it's a real skill-tester of a card because it makes you get things you don't want much earlier than the typical build/green cycle.

Had another hard-to-figure-out game yesterday. Fantastic drawing parts, not much payload, and I had a chance to try Farmer's Market/Sacrifice as payload cards, trying to pile up non-green tokens. I lost, but If anything, it's because I under-committed to the strategy, ignoring economy too long and fiddling with cutesy things like Nobles/Duplicate when I should have just stuck with Worker's Village/Journeyman as better draw (I had some, and after Sacrificing Estates, using Journeyman naming Copper was amazing. When you're using Sacrifice/copper and Farmer's Markets, you can pretty much ignore treasure.) Empires has really changed the rhythm of the game.
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Re: Empires: The "Eat Your Vegetables" Expansion
« Reply #36 on: August 10, 2016, 03:23:25 am »
0

Kale and Spinach salad.

Is there such a thing? As much as I love kale cooked with varieties of smoked meat, I'd be interested in alternative recipes.
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Re: Empires: The "Eat Your Vegetables" Expansion
« Reply #37 on: August 10, 2016, 03:27:36 am »
+1

While I love Dominion and prefer it to Catan, Catan has two mechanisms that slow down a powerful player:

A:  The robber.  In a 4P game the robber should be on the most powerful player's space 75% of the time (and, if the powerful player buys development cards to mitigate the robber, these are resources he could be using to build cities - if he can do both, you're screwed either way). 
B:  Trade embargoes.  Basically when a player begins to get powerful, every other player should refuse to trade with him or her.  Let them deal with the bank or ports.


Cue discussion on how any game with politics benefits people good at politics regardless of the game you are playing.
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Re: Empires: The "Eat Your Vegetables" Expansion
« Reply #38 on: August 10, 2016, 10:26:10 am »
+1

Catan is fun, but man it gets frustrating when all of the players are against you because you won one time.
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Re: Empires: The "Eat Your Vegetables" Expansion
« Reply #39 on: August 10, 2016, 10:57:11 am »
0

Quote
Take Groundskeeper for instance -- it's easy to get multiples of these in play, and then all you have to do is buy a single Estate, or even a Province, which you want to do anyways. You only need to buy the one junk card to get a substantial benefit (sure, +buy makes it even better, but), and then you can trash it.

Groundskeeper is actually a perfect example. There's another factor at work here: If you're playing them and not buying VP cards, Groundskeeper itself is junk! Worse than the $2 Pearl Diver. It's a do-nothing cantrip that costs $5. That's an enormous opportunity cost. You have to carefully time when to get them.

Sure, buying a province is something that you "want to do anyways" but Groundskeepers don't make it any easier to buy them. If you're skipping draw cards, villages, or even money in order to buy GPs, then you are, in fact, slowing yourself down. If you've got enough meat to start greening, but you spend a few turns buying GPs instead of VP cards, then you're also slowing yourself down; you're just doing it before you green instead of during.

Don't get me wrong, it still definitely benefits the engine player far more than BM/Rush strategies. However, it's a real skill-tester of a card because it makes you get things you don't want much earlier than the typical build/green cycle.

Had another hard-to-figure-out game yesterday. Fantastic drawing parts, not much payload, and I had a chance to try Farmer's Market/Sacrifice as payload cards, trying to pile up non-green tokens. I lost, but If anything, it's because I under-committed to the strategy, ignoring economy too long and fiddling with cutesy things like Nobles/Duplicate when I should have just stuck with Worker's Village/Journeyman as better draw (I had some, and after Sacrificing Estates, using Journeyman naming Copper was amazing. When you're using Sacrifice/copper and Farmer's Markets, you can pretty much ignore treasure.) Empires has really changed the rhythm of the game.

All right, I'm with you now regarding Groundskeeper. It definitely slows you down because it has a high opportunity cost and does nothing for you while it's in your deck. In a lot of ways it is in fact a lot like a Duchy or Duke, just with a cantrip effect. Interesting. The big question becomes, when do you buy them (towards the end of the game?) if at all?
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Re: Empires: The "Eat Your Vegetables" Expansion
« Reply #40 on: August 11, 2016, 02:34:29 pm »
0

Quote
The big question becomes, when do you buy them (towards the end of the game?) if at all?

It really seems to want Goons-style multi-buys. I don't think you want them if you're just buying big-VP. It's just not worth the OC.

If I had been planning right, I could have really made it hum even better. I need to up my game to the point where I see the precise finish of the engine turn, which in this case was play highways, groundskeepers, Exactly two festivals, exactly one moat, ending up with a hand of Temple/Estate/Duchy/Provice, trashing all three, buying three more copies. I had 6 GPs and 6 Highways, so it would produce 16 VPs per turn without ever increasing in size, and on the last turn, just keep the extra 10VPs from the green cards.
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Re: Empires: The "Eat Your Vegetables" Expansion
« Reply #41 on: March 06, 2017, 01:57:44 am »
+1

Empires is greener than a Kale and Spinach salad.
Well, it does introduce Landmarks.  Lots of them  ;)
« Last Edit: March 06, 2017, 01:59:45 am by ackmondual »
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Re: Empires: The "Eat Your Vegetables" Expansion
« Reply #42 on: March 06, 2017, 07:26:45 am »
0

Catan is fun, but man it gets frustrating when all of the players are against you because you won one time.

I'm not the only one this happens to, apparently. Then they ignore you when you tell them who they should actually team against, because that person is running away with the game. Happens in Scrabble, too.
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Re: Empires: The "Eat Your Vegetables" Expansion
« Reply #43 on: March 06, 2017, 10:06:50 am »
+5

Catan is fun, but man it gets frustrating when all of the players are against you because you won one time.

I'm not the only one this happens to, apparently. Then they ignore you when you tell them who they should actually team against, because that person is running away with the game. Happens in Scrabble, too.

I usually play three-player Catan with my brother and dad. The typical experience is my dad placing the robber on an "11" hex because eleven got rolled twice in the last 3-5 rolls.
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Re: Empires: The "Eat Your Vegetables" Expansion
« Reply #44 on: March 06, 2017, 12:07:01 pm »
+1

Catan is fun, but man it gets frustrating when all of the players are against you because you won one time.

The proper move is to gang up on whatever asshole suggested you all play Catan in the first place.
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Re: Empires: The "Eat Your Vegetables" Expansion
« Reply #45 on: March 06, 2017, 12:21:12 pm »
+2

Catan is fun, but man it gets frustrating when all of the players are against you because you won one time.

I'm not the only one this happens to, apparently. Then they ignore you when you tell them who they should actually team against, because that person is running away with the game. Happens in Scrabble, too.

The trick about Catan is that you have to be good enough that you still win when everyone teams up against you. I think I have won maybe 30-50 games and lost like 2 or 3, despite the fact that everyone gangs up on me.
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Re: Empires: The "Eat Your Vegetables" Expansion
« Reply #46 on: March 06, 2017, 04:42:54 pm »
+1

Catan is fun, but man it gets frustrating when all of the players are against you because you won one time.

The proper move is to gang up on whatever asshole suggested you all play Catan in the first place.

Catan's only saving grace is that it's not Monopoly
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Re: Empires: The "Eat Your Vegetables" Expansion
« Reply #47 on: March 07, 2017, 01:00:38 am »
0

Catan is fun, but man it gets frustrating when all of the players are against you because you won one time.

The proper move is to gang up on whatever asshole suggested you all play Catan in the first place.

Catan's only saving grace is that it's not Monopoly
Alas, Catan is the new Monopoly
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Re: Empires: The "Eat Your Vegetables" Expansion
« Reply #48 on: March 07, 2017, 08:25:53 am »
0

Catan is fun, but man it gets frustrating when all of the players are against you because you won one time.

The proper move is to gang up on whatever asshole suggested you all play Catan in the first place.

Catan's only saving grace is that it's not Monopoly
Alas, Catan is the new Monopoly

And Kosmos has a monopoly on Catan.
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Re: Empires: The "Eat Your Vegetables" Expansion
« Reply #49 on: March 07, 2017, 09:12:03 am »
+1

Catan is fun, but man it gets frustrating when all of the players are against you because you won one time.

The proper move is to gang up on whatever asshole suggested you all play Catan in the first place.

Catan's only saving grace is that it's not Monopoly

I'd prefer Monopoly. It's so passive you can more easily socialize, listen to music, or otherwise do non-Monopoly things while suffering through it, plus you get to complain about how capitalism doesn't even work when everyone starts out on equal footing.

Catan has just enough decisions to cause fairly frequent AP among inexperienced players, and we all have to spiral to the end waiting forever for key resources to pop up.
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