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Author Topic: Here some ideas for an entirely new card type: Reaction - Attack  (Read 8669 times)

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Destry

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Re: Here some ideas for an entirely new card type: Reaction - Attack
« Reply #25 on: July 25, 2016, 12:25:59 pm »
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I play almost exclusively 3-4 player games and, practically speaking, the kingmaking you describe - holding off buying province or three pile so player A can win instead of player B - never comes up. The common attitude is, if I'm not going to win, then I want to end the game as quickly as possible so I can play another round I could win. It becomes one of the unspoken rules, and you take it into account when you play (ie, if you still can win, you avoid making it easy for anyone to end the game before you can catch up.)
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eHalcyon

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Re: Here some ideas for an entirely new card type: Reaction - Attack
« Reply #26 on: July 25, 2016, 12:34:44 pm »
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I play almost exclusively 3-4 player games and, practically speaking, the kingmaking you describe - holding off buying province or three pile so player A can win instead of player B - never comes up. The common attitude is, if I'm not going to win, then I want to end the game as quickly as possible so I can play another round I could win. It becomes one of the unspoken rules, and you take it into account when you play (ie, if you still can win, you avoid making it easy for anyone to end the game before you can catch up.)

Sure, but your group having a consistent priority doesn't make it the "right"  choice, and since it is still a choice, it's kingmaking. This topic has come up before as well. What if you're in a tournament setting where 2nd place is better than 3rd? What if you're a new group without established conventions?

Another common attitude among the general gaming population is to target the leader, which is the opposite of what you're describing (trying to end the game sooner helps whoever is in the lead).
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GendoIkari

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Re: Here some ideas for an entirely new card type: Reaction - Attack
« Reply #27 on: July 25, 2016, 12:53:01 pm »
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I play almost exclusively 3-4 player games and, practically speaking, the kingmaking you describe - holding off buying province or three pile so player A can win instead of player B - never comes up. The common attitude is, if I'm not going to win, then I want to end the game as quickly as possible so I can play another round I could win. It becomes one of the unspoken rules, and you take it into account when you play (ie, if you still can win, you avoid making it easy for anyone to end the game before you can catch up.)

Sure, but your group having a consistent priority doesn't make it the "right"  choice, and since it is still a choice, it's kingmaking. This topic has come up before as well. What if you're in a tournament setting where 2nd place is better than 3rd? What if you're a new group without established conventions?

Another common attitude among the general gaming population is to target the leader, which is the opposite of what you're describing (trying to end the game sooner helps whoever is in the lead).

As a general rule, I would consider it to be bad sportsmanship purposefully make make a move that guarantees you lose the game. Especially if that decision specifically helps one player over another.

The problem comes when a player is literally mathematically eliminated from the game; which can certainly happen in 3 player Dominion... player A has 6 Provinces, player B has 5 Provinces, and player C, who is really new to or really bad at Dominion, has none. For argument sake we could say that a bunch of Duchies are gone too; so that it's a literal elimination, but even with 12 Duchies available, it's reasonable to consider yourself eliminated even then; you know you aren't going to get every single Duchy plus some Estates before anyone gets a Province (or just buys some Duchies/Estates of their own). In these situations, there's a valid question that the player has to ask, which is "what is my goal now"? There seems to be 3 (legitimate) possible goals you can have:

1. Get the highest place possible; do the move that gets you second place.
2. Maximize your own score; no matter how it affects the ranking.
3. Minimize the difference in score between you and the winner; come as close as possible to winning.

I don't think I can fault anyone for choosing any of those 3. But it needs to be a situation where actual victory is not an option.
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Destry

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Re: Here some ideas for an entirely new card type: Reaction - Attack
« Reply #28 on: July 25, 2016, 12:59:31 pm »
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I play almost exclusively 3-4 player games and, practically speaking, the kingmaking you describe - holding off buying province or three pile so player A can win instead of player B - never comes up. The common attitude is, if I'm not going to win, then I want to end the game as quickly as possible so I can play another round I could win. It becomes one of the unspoken rules, and you take it into account when you play (ie, if you still can win, you avoid making it easy for anyone to end the game before you can catch up.)

Sure, but your group having a consistent priority doesn't make it the "right"  choice, and since it is still a choice, it's kingmaking. This topic has come up before as well. What if you're in a tournament setting where 2nd place is better than 3rd? What if you're a new group without established conventions?

Another common attitude among the general gaming population is to target the leader, which is the opposite of what you're describing (trying to end the game sooner helps whoever is in the lead).

I see your point, and I'm not saying it never happens, but I have never seen anyone calculate the points, and actively make the decision to end or not end a game of Dominion based on letting player A win over player B. The stakes are way too low to make it worthwhile. Kingmaking, to me at least, connotes someone is actively deciding to help someone else win, which I haven't seen in this case.

As a general rule, I would consider it to be bad sportsmanship purposefully make make a move that guarantees you lose the game. Especially if that decision specifically helps one player over another.

The problem comes when a player is literally mathematically eliminated from the game; which can certainly happen in 3 player Dominion... player A has 6 Provinces, player B has 5 Provinces, and player C, who is really new to or really bad at Dominion, has none. For argument sake we could say that a bunch of Duchies are gone too; so that it's a literal elimination, but even with 12 Duchies available, it's reasonable to consider yourself eliminated even then; you know you aren't going to get every single Duchy plus some Estates before anyone gets a Province (or just buys some Duchies/Estates of their own). In these situations, there's a valid question that the player has to ask, which is "what is my goal now"? There seems to be 3 (legitimate) possible goals you can have:

1. Get the highest place possible; do the move that gets you second place.
2. Maximize your own score; no matter how it affects the ranking.
3. Minimize the difference in score between you and the winner; come as close as possible to winning.

I don't think I can fault anyone for choosing any of those 3. But it needs to be a situation where actual victory is not an option.

We usually choose option 4 - get as much game play in as possible.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Here some ideas for an entirely new card type: Reaction - Attack
« Reply #29 on: July 25, 2016, 01:05:47 pm »
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I don't think it's unsportsmanlike if it's a tournament where 2nd is worth more than 3rd and your chance of 1st is low. If your choice is between guaranteed 2nd vs. low chance of 1st but probable 3rd, the first option has real merit. Likewise in a casual setting with a group that cares most about not being last.

Where it does get unsportsmanlike could be in a tournament setting where you choose to kingmake one player over another based on meta reasons of their respective tournament standings, e.g. you choose to let Bob take the points for finishing first because he's much lower in the standings while Alice is highly ranked. But even this is debatable, I think, especially if denying Alice those tournament points puts you higher in the standings.

PPE: the thing is choosing to end the game immediately is equivalent to choosing to let the current leader win, even if that's not the express intent. Sometimes you don't need to specifically calculate the points to know that you're in this situation. Often, players are keeping a general sense of this. And sometimes, players are using a point tracker. :P
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Asper

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Re: Here some ideas for an entirely new card type: Reaction - Attack
« Reply #30 on: July 25, 2016, 03:31:36 pm »
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I stand with my claim that kingmaking in Dominion is present, but rarely relevant. Any decision i make in Dominion that could make a king is a decision for myself actually. I don't gain the last Province because i want Victor to win, but because i want to come in second. I don't skip it because i want Beatrice to win, but because i want a shot at first. Either way, i never do things because it's moot either way, and i can just have to decide whom to harm.

Tournaments are a meta-game and create decisions that the game itself can't be held responsible for in my opinion. If you know you'll be the total winner when Freddy comes in before George this game, will you allow Freddy to gain a second Lab when you reveal it with Jester? You might. But that's not Dominion's fault, it's the fault of the tournament set-up.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Here some ideas for an entirely new card type: Reaction - Attack
« Reply #31 on: July 25, 2016, 04:28:37 pm »
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I stand with my claim that kingmaking in Dominion is present, but rarely relevant. Any decision i make in Dominion that could make a king is a decision for myself actually. I don't gain the last Province because i want Victor to win, but because i want to come in second. I don't skip it because i want Beatrice to win, but because i want a shot at first. Either way, i never do things because it's moot either way, and i can just have to decide whom to harm.

Tournaments are a meta-game and create decisions that the game itself can't be held responsible for in my opinion. If you know you'll be the total winner when Freddy comes in before George this game, will you allow Freddy to gain a second Lab when you reveal it with Jester? You might. But that's not Dominion's fault, it's the fault of the tournament set-up.

Well my question then is... how is this any different from kingmaking in other games?  You can very well make decisions for yourself then as well.  This sounds more like, "I personally don't intentionally king-make" rather than, "king-making is rarely relevant in Dominion because of the way it is designed".
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Here some ideas for an entirely new card type: Reaction - Attack
« Reply #32 on: July 25, 2016, 04:30:49 pm »
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All I can say is a repetition of a point I made before: I think we have kingmaking discussions in about 40% of the games, at the very least.

Usually, the 'kind' is the person who is already ahead, i.e. people just focus on their own gains. Which is probably the best way of going about, but this doesn't mean that it's any less kingmaking.
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Asper

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Re: Here some ideas for an entirely new card type: Reaction - Attack
« Reply #33 on: July 25, 2016, 04:39:22 pm »
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I stand with my claim that kingmaking in Dominion is present, but rarely relevant. Any decision i make in Dominion that could make a king is a decision for myself actually. I don't gain the last Province because i want Victor to win, but because i want to come in second. I don't skip it because i want Beatrice to win, but because i want a shot at first. Either way, i never do things because it's moot either way, and i can just have to decide whom to harm.

Tournaments are a meta-game and create decisions that the game itself can't be held responsible for in my opinion. If you know you'll be the total winner when Freddy comes in before George this game, will you allow Freddy to gain a second Lab when you reveal it with Jester? You might. But that's not Dominion's fault, it's the fault of the tournament set-up.

Well my question then is... how is this any different from kingmaking in other games?  You can very well make decisions for yourself then as well.  This sounds more like, "I personally don't intentionally king-make" rather than, "king-making is rarely relevant in Dominion because of the way it is designed".

Hum. I actually don't king-make, so that applies. However, i find kingmaking a serious problem in other games, and never had any issues with it in Dominion. It's maybe just that directed attacks make it feel much more immediate, though.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Here some ideas for an entirely new card type: Reaction - Attack
« Reply #34 on: July 25, 2016, 07:53:33 pm »
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Well, fair enough.  It sounds to me like you're conflating "take that" and politics with kingmaking specifically, but that may be due to slightly different interpretations of what kingmaking is.
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Asper

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Re: Here some ideas for an entirely new card type: Reaction - Attack
« Reply #35 on: July 25, 2016, 08:32:20 pm »
+1

Yes, maybe i was using the term a bit wrong. Either way, this probably derailed the topic a bit, sorry for that.
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